Okay, so it's the "bottom of the barrel" tape delay, and the one I got has got a few issues that need to be sorted out, but I finally got a real, no-joke tape delay.
I was browsing Reverb.com last week, when I saw a listing for a Univox EC-80A...for $100. :shock: I naturally assumed it was all busted up and non-working, but upon reading the listing, it was indeed in working shape. The issue was that the repeats are "warbly" and "just don't sound right". So I offered $90, and the seller accepted! I messaged the guy a few times and he was really helpful in explaining the issues and what all maintenance he'd already done. And it turns out he grew up very near here (but not lives in WV). Neato!
Turns out the guy thought it was the tape, so he sent the cartridge off to somewhere in Europe to have it re-loaded with new tape, but that didn't fix the sound issues. He also cleaned/lubed the rollers, capstans, and also cleaned the heads. No dice.
I plugged it in earlier, and I definitely here what he was talking about. But it definitely sounds like the tape to me. So I popped the cartridge out, and sure enough I see some crinkle in the tape (all along one edge). So either the tape repacking service ripped this guy off, or there is an alignment issue that is causing the tape to get crinkled in the machine. Guess I'll be schooling myself on how to align tape heads.
Anyway, I have the schematic and looked up some mods/improvements for it. There are a couple obvious / no brainer things to change, such as the outlandishly low-value 4k7 input loading resistor :shock: and the pot for delay time can be increased in value to extend the max time (although the stock time ain't too shabby).
I'll update this thread as I make mods and whatnot. The initial sounds I'm getting are promising, though. It's on the lower-fi side of things, but the tape is only 1/8" and I can't bitch too much for a $90 tape delay. 8)
The cartridges are "2-track" format very similar to a pre-recorded cartridge called PlayTape that briefly hit the market in the late 60s, and it is a distant cousin to the much more famous 8-track. Apparently, you can buy a PlayTape off ebay and make a few minor mods to the case and use in the Univox units. I may give that a try as well.
And lucky for me, the biggest stockpile of new old-stock tape heads is located about 15 miles from here. So I may just head over there with the delay and see if I can pick the brain of the guy who owns the business. Who knows what kind of cool stuff that guys has. Here's the site if you're interested: http://www.jrfmagnetics.com/
Side note: This thing is a lot smaller than I thought it would be.
(https://i.imgur.com/C9cV9x4.jpg)
Here's the back with the cartridge poking out. Looks like Atari! ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/zkmSzd6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0QEFGfV.jpg)
Guts!
(https://i.imgur.com/gy2J3tj.jpg)
I couldn't resist opening up the tape loop cartridge. I think with some practice I could probably replace the tape myself. The tricky parts being connecting the ends of tape together and getting that little loop-back threaded properly (where the tape comes out of the middle of the spool).
(https://i.imgur.com/3jM3efv.jpg)
extremely cool!! what is the date on that unit?
That is awesome! Hope you get it 100% working without any major problems.
Sent from my thumbs using Tapatalk!
Can't you read? It says do not remove screws! ;D
Quote from: haveyouseenhim on March 01, 2014, 02:47:51 PM
Can't you read? It says do not remove screws! ;D
I think we may have one of them rebels in our midst.
My buddy had one of them and it was a cool tape delay. It was definitely not as clean as yours but they seems to take a beating. He would make his own custom length tapes. Have fun with it.
Cody
Had one... loved it... miss it! Congrats.
How do you retro-fit an MN3005 for that tape cartridge? It would solve the crinkled tape problem....
We have one of those at one of the studios where I work. It's fun! Loud, but fun.
Also, JRF are the guys if you need a tape machine fixed up. I didn't know they were in Jersey!
Quote from: lincolnic on March 01, 2014, 10:17:00 PM
Also, JRF are the guys if you need a tape machine fixed up. I didn't know they were in Jersey!
Good to know! Yeah, they are about 15 miles from me.
Wow! $90 WELL spent! I'm jealous.
ahh ...score totally jealous
Nice score dude!
I'd love to own a real tape delay (the potential maintenance woes kind of worry me though).
oh man, I am so jealous!
great score!
Quote from: raulduke on March 03, 2014, 04:17:09 AM
I'd love to own a real tape delay (the potential maintenance woes kind of worry me though).
It seems to be mostly replacing the tape and keeping the heads clean/demagnetized. This little Univox is surprisingly simplistic.
the two pieces of vintage equipment that I still can't believe I sold were my RE-201 and my Prophet 5 :'(
Hang on to that tape delay, they are the coolest.
Quote from: peAk on March 03, 2014, 08:10:01 AM
the two pieces of vintage equipment that I still can't believe I sold were my RE-201 and my Prophet 5 :'(
Hang on to that tape delay, they are the coolest.
You let a Space Echo go. Noooo ;)
God I would love one of those. Here's to hoping Catalinbread do some kind of epic recreation at some point (their Belle Epoch is amazing). The new boss digital unit just does not do it for me.
Saw a similar EC-100 on ebay for cheap ($110) and bought it. ;D
This one was listed as "passes signal but no echo", and that indeed was the case when I got it. I cracked it open, and it is very similar to the EC-80, mechanically speaking. I noticed two issues right away: 1) the motor spindle had no pulley/guide for the belt that drives the capstan flywheel. The belt was just haphazardly moving up and down on the spindle as it spun. 2) one of the ground wires on the playback head was no longer soldered to the pin. I resoldered the ground wire, but this did not restore functionality (no echo).
So I went out to some local thrift shops and found a small crappy tape player. I removed the play/record head (it is combined on small and cheap decks), and also several other odds and ends that might be useful (pulley wheels, pinch roller, belts, etc). Turns out one of the pulleys was a perfect fit for the EC-100's motor spindle, so that problem was solved.
I removed the old record head from the EC-100 and replaced it with the play/record head from the tape player. Much to my shock, this transplant actually worked. :o So now the EC-100 works and sounds similar to the EC-80 (same weak/drop-out repeats), so my original theory that the tape cartridge was the problem seems to have been correct. The motor noise leaks into the audio (changes pitch with speed), which is odd. But I've read some descriptions that say this is common to all EC-100s. It's probably a feature for drone/noise guys. ;D Another plus for ambient/noise rock dudes is that the Echo Repeats knob is also a push-pull switch that disables the record head, effectively turning the unit into a looper.
I also replaced the 50K motor speed pot with a 500K to allow for a bit longer delay times (about 350ms now, as opposed to maybe 250ms with the stock pot).
The arrow points to the head that was replaced. I left the wires long in case it didn't work, and I'll likely go back and shorten it up before putting it back in the head cab.
(https://i.imgur.com/0q5wSGm.jpg)
Quote from: culturejam on March 10, 2014, 12:13:26 PM
Saw a similar EC-100 on ebay for cheap ($110) and bought it. ;D
This one was listed as "passes signal but no echo", and that indeed was the case when I got it. I cracked it open, and it is very similar to the EC-80, mechanically speaking. I noticed two issues right away: 1) the motor spindle had no pulley/guide for the belt that drives the capstan flywheel. The belt was just haphazardly moving up and down on the spindle as it spun. 2) one of the ground wires on the playback head was no longer soldered to the pin. I resoldered the ground wire, but this did not restore functionality (no echo).
So I went out to some local thrift shops and found a small crappy tape player. I removed the play/record head (it is combined on small and cheap decks), and also several other odds and ends that might be useful (pulley wheels, pinch roller, belts, etc). Turns out one of the pulleys was a perfect fit for the EC-100's motor spindle, so that problem was solved.
I removed the old record head from the EC-100 and replaced it with the play/record head from the tape player. Much to my shock, this transplant actually worked. :o So now the EC-100 works and sounds similar to the EC-80 (same weak/drop-out repeats), so my original theory that the tape cartridge was the problem seems to have been correct. The motor noise leaks into the audio (changes pitch with speed), which is odd. But I've read some descriptions that say this is common to all EC-100s. It's probably a feature for drone/noise guys. ;D Another plus for ambient/noise rock dudes is that the Echo Repeats knob is also a push-pull switch that disables the record head, effectively turning the unit into a looper.
I also replaced the 50K motor speed pot with a 500K to allow for a bit longer delay times (about 350ms now, as opposed to maybe 250ms with the stock pot).
The arrow points to the head that was replaced. I left the wires long in case it didn't work, and I'll likely go back and shorten it up before putting it back in the head cab.
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh218/reverse_engineer/EC-100_zps87649a81.jpg)
Unreal, congrats man!
The front panel and knobs looks awesome on that ebay find. Must resist getting another tape delay but you are making it hard to avoid.
Cody
Quote from: selfdestroyer on March 10, 2014, 01:17:30 PM
The front panel and knobs looks awesome on that ebay find. Must resist getting another tape delay but you are making it hard to avoid.
If you are willing to do the leg work of fixing up a non-working unit, these Univoxes are outlandishly cheap. They also aren't the greatest sounding tape delays, but it's more about the challenge of repairing/modding for me than it is anything else. I do believe that modern pedal makers have succeeding in capturing with digital tools most of what makes a tape delay sound the way it does. At this point, you're in it for either the nostalgia or the fun/challenge. 8)
BTW, I'm trying to figure out a way to hack together a DIY tape delay. My research thus far has concluded one thing with a high degree of confidence: there's not going to be an easy/repeatable process to follow. I suspect that is why there isn't already a 10-year-old tape delay project out there. Each build will be a custom project. So it's not really something I expect to be formalized into a typical DIY project writeup. But I'll share whatever it is that I find. The challenges are legion. ;D :'(
Really neat stuff, CJ.
I think you're right, though, about a DIY option not being practical - too much mechanical engineering with motors, etc. Although, since you pointed out the schematic and some of its weaknesses, I think it would be interesting to redesign a better circuit that could be popped into one of these Univoxes - kind of like the "replace your Rat guts" initiative. I have no idea how common these units are, though.
Adding a remote footswitch would be pretty cool, too.
EDIT: Just looked on Bay and Reverb and there were very few and they're very pricey. Oh Well. Maybe if I can snag a really good deal I'll soup one up one day just for the challenge.
Quote from: jubal81 on March 10, 2014, 02:25:01 PM
I think you're right, though, about a DIY option not being practical - too much mechanical engineering with motors, etc.
There are a couple of distinct physical challenges. Anyone sufficiently motivated could figure it all out, however. I'm going to take a stab at it, just for the experience.
Quote from: jubal81Although, since you pointed out the schematic and some of its weaknesses, I think it would be interesting to redesign a better circuit that could be popped into one of these Univoxes - kind of like the "replace your Rat guts" initiative. I have no idea how common these units are, though.
Wow, I didn't even think of that. Yes, that's a really good idea. An improved preamp and mixing circuit would go a long way. You could even add a PT2399 in there for multi-tap. ;D
Quote from: jubal81Adding a remote footswitch would be pretty cool, too.
Both the EC-80 and EC-100 have footswitch jacks built in already. The 80 has it on the back, the 100 is on the front.
Quote from: jubal81EDIT: Just looked on Bay and Reverb and there were very few and they're very pricey. Oh Well. Maybe if I can snag a really good deal I'll soup one up one day just for the challenge.
Just keeping looking. The working units are usually $275 - $350. It's the busted ones you want to look for. ;)
What year was that built? It looks super clean.
I can't find any hard evidence on when these things were made. The best I can tell, the were made from about 1975 to about 1982-3.
I checked and don't see any codes on the pots.
Edit: the EC-80's motor is dated as being made in May of 1975. The EC-100's motor has no date on it.
I had a few of these and around the time that Van Halen was using them they were a dime a dozen. This was right on the cusp of the MXR analog pedal coming out and honestly, for me, it wasn't until the digitals started to appear that anyone could touch the Univox, Echoplex, et al. I had a Maestro SirEcho that was a cheezy version of the EP but I bought a reel of 1/4" recording tape and some splice tape and could refurb my own carts to my hearts content. Listen to any of the Blackmore era Deep Purple and the first Rainbow album to get a taste of the tape goodness.
Just don't go brain dead like I did and get rid of it...
Pretty jealous of your tape finds, CJ! Please do keep us posted on what you come up with for these guys.
Anyway, I finally got a damn PlayTape cartridge in today (off ebay) to verify that there's nothing wrong with the actual units, and that it's the other cartridge I had that was the issue. So the PlayTape is essentially exactly like the Apollon/Dictaphone cartridges that came stock with the Univox, with one small difference: there is a groove in one side of the Apollon that mates with a notch in the cartridge housing on the Univox. The PlayTapes do not have this groove, so they won't fit the housing. I read that other folks have modified the PlayTape cartridges to make them work but sanding down a groove to make it match the housing. I think this is stupid. Why modify multiple cartridges when you can just modify the one housing? I carefully cut the tiny notch out and smoothed it down flush. The PlayTape now fits and works just fine. It's a little tight, but it definitely works.
Tape delay, baby! The EC-100 is now working in full. The only issue is the motor noise/whine I mentioned previously. I've heard some people report this is normal for these units, but I may try a different playback head just to see if it makes a difference. Still, the repeats are pretty nice. A little hissy, but the modulation is nice. There is some "wow" in all speeds, and on the longer delay times there is also some "flutter" most of the time. The randomness is pretty cool.
Now to mod the EC-80 to take the PlayTape cartridges...and also to learn how to repack these cartridges myself.
(https://i.imgur.com/cYlhnbt.jpg)
Playtape vs Apollon/Dictaphone cartridge:
(https://i.imgur.com/ggQJPlA.jpg)
More jealous than before
Well don't be jealous! Get you one:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2055119.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xunivox+echo&_nkw=univox+echo&_sacat=0&_from=R40
$135 buy-it-now, $15 shipping. Comes with a functional tape cartridge. And based on the description, getting back to 100% should* be pretty trivial.
* Sounds like the motor speed is not variable, which suggests the Delay Time pot needs to be replaced or at least cleaned. Since the sellers says there is echo present, it means the motor is working, the flywheel/belt are intact, the record head works, and the playback head works. There's not much else to replace on that thing. But I make no guarantees, so if you buy it and can't fix it, don't get mad at me. ;D
Why you gotta tempt me like that?
Quote from: culturejam on March 17, 2014, 09:46:18 PM
Well don't be jealous! Get you one:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2055119.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xunivox+echo&_nkw=univox+echo&_sacat=0&_from=R40
$135 buy-it-now, $15 shipping. Comes with a functional tape cartridge. And based on the description, getting back to 100% should* be pretty trivial.
* Sounds like the motor speed is not variable, which suggests the Delay Time pot needs to be replaced or at least cleaned. Since the sellers says there is echo present, it means the motor is working, the flywheel/belt are intact, the record head works, and the playback head works. There's not much else to replace on that thing. But I make no guarantees, so if you buy it and can't fix it, don't get mad at me. ;D
when it's fully working, how much delay can you get?
Quote from: peAk on March 18, 2014, 09:09:21 AM
when it's fully working, how much delay can you get?
On the EC-80, it's about 350ms-ish. Kinda depends on the individual unit. But, you can use a large value pot for the Delay Time to extend it. I have my EC-100 at about 450ms right now. Keep in mind that like analog delays, longer times means less fidelity. In this case you're slowing down the tape transport, which spreads the audio out less densely, which means less fidelity. But don't kit yourself, these units weren't made for fidelity, even at the highest speed setting. ;D
Somebody please buy this thing so that I don't break down and end up with three low-fi tape heads. :o :D
You talked me into it. :)
Quote from: rullywowr on March 18, 2014, 11:10:33 AM
You talked me into it. :)
YES!! Now I have a tape delay buddy. 8)
Quote from: culturejam on March 18, 2014, 11:18:51 AM
Quote from: rullywowr on March 18, 2014, 11:10:33 AM
You talked me into it. :)
YES!! Now I have a tape delay buddy. 8)
Looking forward to it! Do you have any schematics or repair docs?
I have a schematic for both the EC-80 and EC-100. I will post them in a separate thread.
I've not been able to find any official service manuals. There is a low-res scan of the original user manual (it includes a schematic but it's hard to read because of the size):
http://www.univox.org/schematics.html
What I've been able to fix so far has been through some Googling of forums and also some trial and error. I plan to write up something a bit more formalized and post it once I get more theories verified. That's something we could work on together, if you're interested.
Quote from: culturejam on March 18, 2014, 12:00:39 PM
I have a schematic for both the EC-80 and EC-100. I will post them in a separate thread.
I've not been able to find any official service manuals. There is a low-res scan of the original user manual (it includes a schematic but it's hard to read because of the size):
http://www.univox.org/schematics.html
What I've been able to fix so far has been through some Googling of forums and also some trial and error. I plan to write up something a bit more formalized and post it once I get more theories verified. That's something we could work on together, if you're interested.
Thanks for that. I'd be glad to help contribute to getting something more formalized created with you. I intend on changing out the pot, replacing the aging electros and cleaning up the unit. Haven't seen it yet but am excited!
PS...did you see the one on eBay that sold for $8.00??!?! omg
Quote from: rullywowr on March 18, 2014, 03:21:50 PM
PS...did you see the one on eBay that sold for $8.00??!?! omg
Uh, no. Man, I just paid more than that for a PlayTape.
Okay folks, here's a clip of the EC-100 (motor noise and all). Longest delay setting is possible because of increasing the resistance of the Time pot.
[soundcloud]https://soundcloud.com/effdub/univox-ec-100-with-playtape[/soundcloud]
Not sure if you linked the clip.....unless it's my phone
Mmm...tape delay...
ahhh.....so nice!
I hope rullywowr has as much success with his as you have had with yours. That is such a steal at those prices.
I will be watching this thread so please update!!!
Just wanted an update
Ben, did you get your tap echo?
How did it work?
I'm still learning how to repack the cartridges and all that. Got some plans in the works, and Ben and I have exchanged emails to hash out some ideas.
The sum of my experiments and findings so far as that I can see where there isn't an existing DIY tape delay project. ;D It's really hard to come up with a plan that is easily repeatable by anyone. This is because the mechanicals (tape transport, etc) aren't really being made anymore, so each build will require a lot of individual engineering, and the resulting functionality of each build would vary quite a bit. So basically a paint-by-numbers project is more or less not possible. Not without a Kickstarter campaign to provide thousands of dollars of R&D money, anyway. I could see *someone* engineering one from the ground up and making it into a kit like how a lot of CnC and 3D printer projects do on Kickstarter.
But anyway, I plan to forge ahead and see if I can make my own tape delay by hacking up some existing electronics. Ben and I both think the 8-track format would be a great platform for several reasons: the machines are cheap and easy to get, they are available as small/portable units, the tapes are pretty easy to get, the cartridges themselves are self-contained tape loops, and long tapes would last a long time before wearing out. The Univox unit tapes are just like 8-track but with 1/8" tape instead of 1/4", so we know that type of setup works.
I'm also checking out the feasibility of using a mini reel-to-reel machine as the base. These have 3" reels, are quite compact, and take DC power directly already (batteries). Some of these are actually rim-drive instead of capstan-drive, which for pure audio playback is generally bad because of increased wow-and-flutter, but that's a big part of the magic mojo in a tape delay.
That's great.
Well, I will be interested in the progress you guys make so be sure to update this thread from time to time.
Quote from: peAk on April 17, 2014, 01:05:12 PM
That's great.
Well, I will be interested in the progress you guys make so be sure to update this thread from time to time.
Me too!
Just to update you guys on this whole thing...
I now have two EC-80s and the EC-100. Got all of them working.
Most importantly, I figured out why the EC-100 has motor whine in the audio and the EC-80 doesn't. The 80s both use a fixed magnet as an "erase head" (this is common on cheap tape decks...the good decks have a dedicated real erase head). The magnet sits just next to the record head and wipes the tape before it passes the record head. The 100 has a mode for looping, which is a simple switch that defeats the record head. In order for this to work, there can't be an erase magnet. So basically the motor noise isn't getting removed, and recording over it alone isn't enough.
So I'm going to add the magnet to the 100, as it's the best sounding of the three units. I use really long tapes, so looping isn't very practical, so it's no loss to me. And if I did want to use it, I could just remove the magnet. It sits in a bit of metal that is screwed into the cassette housing and is easy to add or remove.
I just got a 3D printer, so I plan to make the little magnet holders for the 100 and the other 80 (which came with the magnet removed, which is how I figured out the noise in the 100).
That's pretty cool! I've never seen an EC-100 in person, so I know very little about it. We were rocking the EC-80 in the studio last week for some guitar tracks, though. Sounded rad. Keep us posted on how your DIY erase head comes out!
Quote from: lincolnic on August 02, 2014, 09:49:50 PM
That's pretty cool! I've never seen an EC-100 in person, so I know very little about it.
The 100 is very similar mechanically to the 80. Same motor, flywheel, tape housing, chassis size, etc. The circuits are quite a bit different, though. The 80 is all transistors, whereas the 100 uses op amps.
The 100 has more headroom and the repeats are a bit less murky in my opinion.
Bumping this because I replaced the old Photobucket links with Imgr links. Somebody at TGP was asking about an EC-100 issue and photos would be useful.
Not sure this is still going but I'm a huge Univox Tape Echo fan. I have 2 EC100's and 3 EC80's. 1 EC100 is fully working ( I LOVE IT, especially the playback function). 1 out of 3 EC80's working (barely). The one that works barely I managed to get almost new in the box with 3 tapes (one still shrink wrapped!!!), also came with Factory printed out schematics. I could scan and upload if that's any use to anyone here :). The Echo on the 80 is a little faint compared to the 100 (is that normal?). I'd also love to get my other 100 working, any insight on that? Would also love to experiment with getting a longer delay time on both... Where to get parts for that? Experienced in soldering but not with this particular unit... Thanks everyone!