http://freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28028
;D
I had no idea that all these years, the kits I've been buying from Madbean were really just stuff he took from Freestompboxes. ::)
"I do get mixed feelings when madbeaners come here..." - What in the hell does that even mean? Are we a motorcycle gang and I didn't get the memo?
I'm hesitant to post on the internet at the best of times, not least of all because I've got little technical knowledge to contribute, but folk like that are a reason I've zero drive to post on the big two forums. Lookie here, we got some outta-towners 8)
"He must have learned a lot of stuff here and is now selling his pcb's from all this info." Is "Here" the internets?
Quote from: zombie_rock123 on January 14, 2017, 06:12:40 PM
"I do get mixed feelings when madbeaners come here..." - What in the hell does that even mean? Are we a motorcycle gang and I didn't get the memo?
Don't waste any energy worrying about that guy. You won't ever figure him out.
Quote from: zombie_rock123I'm hesitant to post on the internet at the best of times, not least of all because I've got little technical knowledge to contribute, but folk like that are a reason I've zero drive to post on the big two forums. Lookie here, we got some outta-towners 8)
FSB has always been a frosty sort of place. The owner sets the tone from the top down.
Thanks for the informed opinion, completely out the loop with other places. Very happy with my forum choice. A++, would post again ;D
I joined madbean and FSB at the same time and I've learned a hell of a lot more here than I have from fsb. I like the atmosphere here and how willing people are to lend their expertise to complete noobs like me.
there will always be people like that out there on forums. they just assume things without checking facts, like the "selling kits" thing. and even if Brian learned a lot on FSB isn't that the whole point of a community like that? isn't it amazing that some people actually go ahead and make this their main job and actually live off it? I for one am greatful for all Brian has done for the community as I will always prefer manufactured pcbs (that are also verified) over home-etched or vero layouts. it makes building easy, fun and clean.
thanks peterc (I know you're around here too) for stepping in over at FSB and clarifying stuff. I hope someone will take note of that. Someone could recommend to the original post over there to write an email to Brian, although I have to admit I couldn't find it on the homepage anymore.
To add to the other commenters: this is the only forum I entered and I couldn't be happier about it. this community is the best. I've seen people going out of their way to help others, it's unreal how much this community cares for one another. keep it up guys!
That is a nice vignette of fsb imo...
The place has kind of stagnated from what it was (from what I can tell anyhow).
Could be due to the slightly hostile atmosphere of the forum...
Quote from: culturejam on January 14, 2017, 07:01:24 PM
The owner sets the tone from the top down.
This tends to be the case with all forums.
FSB always seemed to me to be a bit clique-y. "We're the reverse-engineering Che Guavaras of the pedal world! Fight the power! Circuits want to be free!"
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Don't care.
I take serious offense to the whole thing, but attacking the music? Please.
It's a shame really because FSB is an awesome resource, always has been. I always point noobs towards here and BYOC, and always carefully recommend FSB with the caveat that it can be a bit hostile for no reason that I can actually fathom.
This particularly baffling post doesn't surprise me in the slightest and it's best to just ignore it rather than get involved IME. Life's too short to argue with people on an internet forum.
gordo, the fact that you lurked around since 2010 on fsb and your first post there was to defend MBP and this forum warms my heart and pretty much says everything about the attitude around there.
Thanks!
there's a lot of information to be had there but the tone is rather catty as evidenced by this thread ... I don't know why they hate it when people outgrow their particular kiddie pool ... and I really don't know why they loathe other people's success.
I joined there in 2009 and have 48 posts to my name... I'm quite a chatty chap (mostly) also. It's just not an environment I feel particularly welcome in.
DIYSB is similar (81 posts) but for different reasons. Everything being in one forum that gets insane amounts of traffic and is impossible to find things in being the big one.
BYOC (690 posts, actually quite interesting this!) I only stopped using because I throttled back on my forums and I prefer here as it suits my attitude more. But that place is friendly.
Man, I was tempted to set the record straight, but in the end, I don't think anyone over there really cares to hear it.
Jacob
Quote from: madbean on January 14, 2017, 09:31:00 PM
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Don't care.
Love this
I'm a member of 4 or 5 pedal forums. Here, ILF, DIYSB, FSB, and another...I think. I'm most active here. One, because you guys are the best and most active group. Two, because Brian is the shit and surrounds himself with good people and companies (1776, parasite, JMK, GCFX, etc). And Three, the people here are nice and always willing to help, plus I can never get enough uncensored CJ...hehehe jk.
FSB, from what I can tell is nothing but stolen info and cheap rip offs. But that's my opinion. But I do value the site to some level or I would be a member there. It's nowhere near as bad as harmony central, or the gear page. But yeah, that guy need a better way to express himself.
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Quote from: jkokura on January 14, 2017, 10:27:49 PM
Man, I was tempted to set the record straight, but in the end, I don't think anyone over there really cares to hear it.
Jacob
I don't know how much of a record exists to set straight, honestly. The boards I currently
sell on this site have very little cross-over with any information I got from FSB. That's been true for a few years. If there are members there that don't like me or MBP or my silly little band that's perfectly fine. It's a big internet.
From the thread's admin:
"This wasn't without problems and actions from the IP police."
"So I his whole website is dancing around really indentifying the pedal kits he's selling. Trying to link them to the commercial pedal in one sense, but not referring to it objectively. The key to the cloned kit kingdom is that forum of course, that's where you can learn which pedal is which."
".....All the info is here, came from here, and we call a duck a duck if talk like, walks like, smells like and traces back to duck."
Does this "admin" also post fraudulent car ads on craigslist? The wording sounds just as bizarre.
Quote from: m-Kresol on January 14, 2017, 09:49:03 PM
gordo, the fact that you lurked around since 2010 on fsb and your first post there was to defend MBP and this forum warms my heart and pretty much says everything about the attitude around there.
Thanks!
Thanks bud, I check in on the place but never had anything to say till now. Guess that was my flashpoint.
What a maroon over on FSB. Kudos to Brian for taking the high road.
I haven't frequented FSB in quite a while. This forum is not only friendlier, but there's
more good and useful information to be found. Even when I'm not building pedals,
I like to visit here and see what's going on.
I have to admit I've never looked at FSB from what I'm reading in this thread I'm not about to start using it as a resource any time soon.
I will say that since joining this forum, I've only had positive, encouraging feedback. That alone is inspiring.
There are plenty of shitty thing in this world. I'm sure people (myself included) build pedals for enjoyment. Why people have to put a negative spin on something that is completely beyond me.
I will end with, Brian please keep up your great work. Absolutely no complaints from this Aussie.
TD
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I have to admit I've never looked at FSB from what I'm reading in this thread I'm not about to start using it as a resource any time soon.
I will say that since joining this forum, I've only had positive, encouraging feedback. That alone is inspiring.
There are plenty of shitty thing in this world. I'm sure people (myself included) build pedals for enjoyment. Why people have to put a negative spin on something that is completely beyond me.
I will end with, Brian please keep up your great work. Absolutely no complaints from this Aussie.
TD
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yep, totally agree, this forum and community are amazing. It blows my mind how resourceful, helpful and friendly it is here. I don't post that much, but I sure read everything.
I've posted a couple times on FSB or DIYSB, and often do research there, but I've never felt welcome there, or a sense of community.
Keep it up guys! :)
I'm a member on most of the other pedal forums, but pretty much only to source vero layouts from. I come here for the real goods...
With so much negativity in this world, why is it necessary to create more? I like this forum because we are the opposite of that, and we police ourselves really well.
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Quote from: flanagan0718 on January 15, 2017, 12:58:17 AM
FSB, from what I can tell is nothing but stolen info and cheap rip offs.
This is not an uncommon viewpoint, but I believe it is not accurate (but of course you are still free to have this as an opinion :) ). And I further believe that this idea stems from misunderstandings about copyright law, which many pedal companies, in particular, seem to not understand very well. There is a thread stickied here about "ethics of selling pedals made from DIY hobby PCBs", which touches on some aspects of intellectual property, but it might not be a terrible idea to have one dealing with copyright and trademark as it relates to pedal circuits. I'd be happy to contribute, and I'm sure midwayfair would also be a good source of info.
At any rate, the original ideaology behind FSB was good. The core concepts were/are that it is both legal and ethical to reverse engineer pedals, that many boutique products are shameless rip-offs of competitor's products or merely some minimally tweaked classic circuit that this this should be proved publicly, and that the resulting schematics and layouts should not be commercialized by members (which would be hypocritical).
I think those are good things, which is why I contributed so much content there for a couple years (and served as a moderator). It eventually spiraled downward because, in my opinion, the owner is kind of a loon and is a classic "crusader in search of a crusade", and when he can't find one, he creates one (in his mind). He decided that Brian was taking content from FSB and selling it, and so that became his reality, and you can't convince him otherwise (I tried a couple times).
Ok, I visit many different diy pedal forums and post at most of them. They all have a different reason for existing, and therefore a different vibe.
I want to make clear I am in no way defending modman's accusations about the provenance of the schematics used for Brian's kits, but I wanted to provide some context to the perceived "icy atmosphere" of the place and attitude towards Brian personally, and commercial/"kit" sites and forums generally:
1. FSB was set up in 2007 by two individuals with the mission simply to document the schematic of EVERY pedal ever released. This was in response to Zvex, Teese and some other pedal builders having a personal guarantee from Aron at DIYSB that their schematics would never be posted at DIYSB.
2. Because of this remit, FSB has been the target of many attempts to shut it down on spurious grounds of "IP abuses", which on one occasion was successful for a few months as the provider got scared of a spurious DMCA violation accusation, and modman had to secure a different provider who would never cave in.
3. The pedal threads at FSB are meant to document each pedal, not be a "how to clone" guide, so posts that do not provide gutshots, partial traces, or discussion pertaining directly to the circuit itself are generally viewed in a dim light.
4. Whilst the vast amount of information hosted at FSB is provided on the understanding that it is for educational/diy personal use only, the number of amateurish "clones" available for barely more than the cost of parts on eBay, the number of "pedal companies" springing up knocking out nearly-clones, and the number of pcb fab companies using info gleaned from FSB must grate with modman, particularly since it seems to support the case against FSB made by pedal builders accusing FSB as enabling "pedal piracy".
5. There is some bad blood between [Brian and culturejam] and modman relating to an offer to trace a very expensive pedal purchased by the "FSB tracers fund" contributed to by ordinary FSB members.
6. Brian left FSB and deleted all his contributions there.
7. culturejam was a very active member there, and contributed a tonne of information, and always maintained the FSB ethic that every schematic for every commercial pedal should be available to all for educational etc purposes. He even claimed that if he ever set up a pedal company, he would provide a schematic inside each pedal. Now he has set up a commercial company, it seems that this might not be the case.
I understand that CJ did not design this pedal on his own, so it would be perfectly fair for him to claim that he alone could not provide permission to supply the schematic.
However, this "poacher turned gamekeeper" state of affairs is probably the main source of friction between modman at FSB and every other commercial pedal "diy" websites.
Let me re-iterate: I have no dog in this fight - I regularly visit madbean AND FSB, I value all the contributions both madbean and CJ have made to FSB and all other DIY pedals over the years, and I totally get the perception that FSB's owner can come across as an unnecessarily confrontational individual. I also want people to realise that it is by far the greatest resource for information about what is inside effects on the web, and this exists ONLY because there is literally zero commercial intent to it.
Quote from: nocentelli on January 15, 2017, 02:57:41 PM
7. culturejam was a very active member there, and contributed a tonne of information, and always maintained the FSB ethic that every schematic for every commercial pedal should be available to all for educational etc purposes. He even claimed that if he ever set up a pedal company, he would provide a schematic inside each pedal. Now he has set up a commercial company, it seems that this might not be the case.
I have no issue with FFX releasing its schematics, and neither does CJ (we've talked about it several times). But he and I are not the owners of the company...we're two of five partners (as you alluded to later in your post). Shoot, the Clusterfuzz could be traced in a hour if someone wanted to. It's a single sided board and a pretty simple circuit. If someone did trace it I'd be happy to confirm the correctness, even. The Third Rail is just an expansion and modification of the GreaseGun circuit we did for the FFX fundraiser. There is nothing hidden in either pedal.
As far as your mention of the Tracer's Fund (of which I was also a contributing member) there is a lot that went on behind that which I don't care to discuss ever again. But, I will say the TF was re-imbursed
in full plus extra without any hesitation or delay on my part and the job got done
with help; just not on a reasonable time scale (which was
entirely my fault). I alone am to blame for that...but it's not the reason I exited the forum. I hope that's at least a little clarification since this seems to come up every few years.
I'd go so far as to say that fsb as a community despises other people's success. that said, such particular themes are held in other "free the information" groups and it is par for the course. hackers hate it when people grow up and get jobs in IT Security for example.
I was waiting for the other shoe to drop and someone say something about function(fx) ... when I saw that shade thrown over there I pretty much quit going to fsb. it was childish, typical internet forum troll behavior I've seen a million different places.
my feeling on the matter is that fsb as a community doesn't want to pay for the information by buying and tracing as they have in the past and would prefer to bully said information out of the members of function(fx) and ideally other pedal makers.
when you're down to that kind of behavior is it really about information freedom or piracy? because it feels less high idealed than freedom and a little more dirty like piracy. I'd also remind fsb that they are A source of information, not the only source and ultimately people don't owe them anything for giving away information. the old chestnut about teaching as a thankless job seems appropriate ... the reward is the result. maybe enjoy it when your membership goes off on its own and enjoys individual success.
There's a faction there who think that selling any product or service for money is evil. It's the same faction who think that there's big bucks in designing/manufacturing/selling pedals. The simple fact is that for someone with the skill set to do that properly there are far easier ways to make much more money.
Quote from: nocentelli on January 15, 2017, 02:57:41 PM
5. There is some bad blood between [Brian and culturejam] and modman relating to an offer to trace a very expensive pedal purchased by the "FSB tracers fund" contributed to by ordinary FSB members.
Couple things here.
There *was* bad blood.
Second, the drama that culminated with the Echo Czar trace started well before. The party was already getting a weird vibe, but that event was the proverbial "turd in the punch bowl" that really soured the whole thing. Modman already didn't trust me anymore because I used my mod powers to edit a certain user's posts to protect him from a threatened lawsuit. Modman saw that as a betrayal of "truth and justice" or whatever load of idealogical bullshit he was high on at the time. I was just trying to look out for a guy who almost lost his job over posting a schematic of a friggin pedal. (long story, and no, I won't go into it).
Quote from: nocentelliHe even claimed that if he ever set up a pedal company, he would provide a schematic inside each pedal. Now he has set up a commercial company, it seems that this might not be the case.
As Brian said, it's not just up to me. If it were, there would be a printed schematic in each box shipped out. We took a vote, and as a group we voted not to release the schematic. Can't win 'em all. :)
And as Brian also said, I would be totally fine if somebody bought one and traced it. In fact, I'm a little hurt it hasn't happened yet. I even went as far as posting a gut shot on FSB (using an alt account) to try to get the ball rolling. We made no attempts to hide any parts or remove any markings from any parts. It's all right there in the box with no trickery.
Quote from: nocentelliI also want people to realise that it is by far the greatest resource for information about what is inside effects on the web, and this exists ONLY because there is literally zero commercial intent to it.
That is definitely true. However, the ethics and morals of one man's little kingdom (web site) doesn't automatically get applied to everyone else. FSB is and should be non-commercialized, but that doesn't mean every other website in the world must follow the same ascetic philosophy.
If you don't want information used in ways you don't approve, don't post it on the internet. Why people can't understand this, I'll never fathom
I don't know what you guys are talking about, I love my madbean kits. It's so much easier than just buying the raw boards. ;D
Oh yeah, and the Third Rail has part of the circuit schematic on the outside of the box! We made it easy 😁
Quote from: culturejam on January 15, 2017, 08:09:37 PM
If you don't want information used in ways you don't approve, don't post it on the internet.
Why people can't understand this, I'll never fathom
This extends to so, so many things. I've seen one guideline somewhere else, to NEVER post pictures of your kids on the net.
When the fifteen year olds of today are thirty or forty, they are going to have boundless reams of dickpix and nude selfies that will never be deletable. At least with us, the only record are in our mate's memories.
Thanks to everyone for posting opinions. The bulk of this is before my time (even though I've been around forever). I appreciate the insights though and although it really doesn't change my stance, it does give me insight into how this started. nocentelli, it takes some stones to provide a down the middle perspective and I think it's worth acknowledging the verbage. I'm a fan all around of folks that have more knowledge than myself, which is about 80% of this crowd. I generally shy away from political diatribe.
I just wanted to clear up POTLs issue with logging on here! Kinda got carried away I guess.
Seemed like Modman was confusing Madbean with another company?
Can I just say that the color scheme of this forum is easier on the eyes. The black with white letting is much easier to read. That's one of the many reasons I like this site. I have old shitty eyes.
I have to admit, I quite like the rowdy rough vibe of FSB. It reminds me of another forum that I frequented for years. Unfortunately it has ruined me for life as it made me woefully ill prepared for nice forums such as this.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/02/93/ce/0293cebf0c93b44f37e0b3c9b65c0a96.jpg)
Random dog picture... and...
Quote from: jimilee on January 15, 2017, 01:54:39 PM
With so much negativity in this world, why is it necessary to create more? I like this forum because we are the opposite of that, and we police ourselves really well.
+1
I used to love it there, but the pirate ship was too small for the scalawags in the crew. The plankowners drifted to the four winds and the captains were cantankerous. Some people just do not know how to handle the booty. argh
There are so many heart rending problems in this world with so many worthy causes to take up. Making schematics available is not a cause. It's just a thing.
I frequent this forum because it's a fun, inviting, educational place to be. I think it stays this way because it's not a fun and inviting place for people who take themselves too seriously. I do believe that that ethos trickles down from Brian. I don't care what happened over at FSB. I think we kind of have a feel for who Brian is (and CJ for that matter) by way of the atmosphere here on his forum.
Quote from: Leevibe on January 21, 2017, 10:45:34 PM
There are so many heart rending problems in this world with so many worthy causes to take up. Making schematics available is not a cause. It's just a thing.
Wait you mean making the schematics for antiquated analog tech isn't one of the most pressing issues we face as a civilization!?
Thanks leevibe you said that very eloquently.
Quote from: Leevibe on January 21, 2017, 10:45:34 PM
There are so many heart rending problems in this world with so many worthy causes to take up. Making schematics available is not a cause. It's just a thing.
I frequent this forum because it's a fun, inviting, educational place to be. I think it stays this way because it's not a fun and inviting place for people who take themselves too seriously. I do believe that that ethos trickles down from Brian. I don't care what happened over at FSB. I think we kind of have a feel for who Brian is (and CJ for that matter) by way of the atmosphere here on his forum.
This is how I feel about it.
(http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/doge-meme-21.jpg)
That is so dog! :)
No, Forrest, these men are nihilists. There's nothing to be afraid of.
Quote from: atreidesheir on January 25, 2017, 02:38:15 AM
No, Forrest, these men are nihilists. There's nothing to be afraid of.
Haha, nice one, Charles. ;D Totally tied the thread together.
(https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/ip_2214436.jpg?quality=80&strip=all)
i dont know shit... but what i do .. i learned here and am unafraid to post ...you guys have always made me feel welcome
Clusterfuzz is up on tagboard
Quote from: Donleo on January 29, 2017, 07:11:58 PM
Clusterfuzz is up on tagboard
C1 (from Tagboard) is 680pF on the CF, FYI.
Quote from: madbean on January 29, 2017, 08:11:55 PMC1 (from Tagboard) is 680pF on the CF, FYI.
Is the rest of it correct? ::)
Quote from: nocentelli on January 29, 2017, 09:36:26 PM
Quote from: madbean on January 29, 2017, 08:11:55 PMC1 (from Tagboard) is 680pF on the CF, FYI.
Is the rest of it correct? ::)
I'm not a member of FSB so I can't view the image but if you post it here I can check.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j190/Leeroyfunk/clusterfuzz_nocentelli_zpsqzjpjjpv.jpg) (http://s80.photobucket.com/user/Leeroyfunk/media/clusterfuzz_nocentelli_zpsqzjpjjpv.jpg.html)
You're missing a 1k resistor between the Tone pot and the 2n2 cap, I think. The first position on the rotary is no clipping diodes, then LED, 2n7000, 1n194 and finally BAT41. Good work!
IIRC D12 came directly off the 9v supply rather than after the PTC. I seem to remember we had an issue with noise otherwise. But I might be mis-remembering that.
Quote from: madbean on January 29, 2017, 11:38:48 PM
You're missing a 1k resistor between the Tone pot and the 2n2 cap, I think. The first position on the rotary is no clipping diodes, then LED, 2n7000, 1n194 and finally BAT41. Good work!
IIRC D12 came directly off the 9v supply rather than after the PTC. I seem to remember we had an issue with noise otherwise. But I might be mis-remembering that.
Nice trick with the fuse, BTW. You get the advantages of the crowbar and if polarity is reversed, nothing burns up. Mind sharing which one you use?
Quote from: jubal81 on January 29, 2017, 11:59:10 PM
Nice trick with the fuse, BTW. You get the advantages of the crowbar and if polarity is reversed, nothing burns up. Mind sharing which one you use?
Yeah I wasn't really hip to that before but Jerry suggested we do that for all our pedals. This is the one we use:
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=MF-R010virtualkey65210000virtualkey652-MFR010
Darlington front end? I'm guessing it isn't just for the gain which is limited by 2x emitter resistance. I'm intrigued enough to check out the clipping it produces.
Quote from: EBRAddict on January 30, 2017, 01:30:17 AM
Darlington front end? I'm guessing it isn't just for the gain which is limited by 2x emitter resistance. I'm intrigued enough to check out the clipping it produces.
It's been so long now that I might be remembering this wrong, but I believe we originally had Q1 configured quite differently and then rejiggered it to remove oscillation when Fuzz and Volume were both dimed.
Quote from: madbean on January 29, 2017, 11:38:48 PM
You're missing a 1k resistor between the Tone pot and the 2n2 cap, I think. The first position on the rotary is no clipping diodes, then LED, 2n7000, 1n194 and finally BAT41. Good work!
IIRC D12 came directly off the 9v supply rather than after the PTC. I seem to remember we had an issue with noise otherwise. But I might be mis-remembering that.
That's a great looking (and sounding, based on demos) circuit, Brian.
Now that the schematic for your board is on FSB, it is time for you to start selling Clusterfuzz kits!
Quote from: diablochris6 on January 30, 2017, 01:58:27 PM
That's a great looking (and sounding, based on demos) circuit, Brian.
Now that the schematic for your board is on FSB, it is time for you to start selling Clusterfuzz kits!
Thank you, but Forrest deserves the kudos. He is a fuzz master, haha.
Yeah, I dunno about kits. We kinda talked about it at some point but never really got anywhere with it. Maybe we should revisit that now that the pedal is traced. I'll bring it up.
Quote from: madbean on January 30, 2017, 02:17:01 PM
Quote from: diablochris6 on January 30, 2017, 01:58:27 PM
That's a great looking (and sounding, based on demos) circuit, Brian.
Now that the schematic for your board is on FSB, it is time for you to start selling Clusterfuzz kits!
Thank you, but Forrest deserves the kudos. He is a fuzz master, haha.
Yeah, I dunno about kits. We kinda talked about it at some point but never really got anywhere with it. Maybe we should revisit that now that the pedal is traced. I'll bring it up.
I mostly made that comment in jest. Then FSB could complain about you making a kit based off a schematic on their site that is actually your company's own pedal.
If you made kits or sold B-stock, you practically have a name already: Derivative f'(x).
Derivative F(x) will be the Chinese offshoot. Plot twist: we'll move to China to start it.
Quote from: diablochris6 on January 30, 2017, 03:55:07 PM
Then FSB could complain about you making a kit based off a schematic on their site that is actually your company's own pedal.
It's a good joke, but not entirely out of the realm of possibility. ;D
We'll probably end up flogging a PCB just to grab some of the cash. It's reminiscent of Catalinbread's "Fuck it, you build it!" kits they had for a while.
I wasn't gonna post in this thread because it's already 4x longer than the thread it's referencing, but since there's a schematic:
1) That tone pot is makin' me sad. It could have been a SWTC. ;)
2) Was C3 added so that the amount of bass present at the clipping diodes was higher than that at the output, or was it to prevent any possible DC voltage on the diodes if the pedal was plugged into something else that wasn't built right?
3) Someone mentioned the Darlington front end being limited by the DC resistance. It's fully bypassed by the fuzz pot, so the higher gain is absolutely being used. But while we're on the subject, was the DC point set by the 2K important enough that you couldn't use the fuzz pot as the emitter resistor? ;)
4) A pedal company did the MOSFET clipping right for a change. Yay!
5) I am still amazing the 8 Bit pot actually does what it does.
Jon, I knew you would swoop in and point out all the bad things. ;D
Quote from: midwayfair on January 30, 2017, 04:37:16 PM
1) That tone pot is makin' me sad. It could have been a SWTC. ;)
I call it SRTC: Simply Rat Tone Control
Quote from: midwayfair2) Was C3 added so that the amount of bass present at the clipping diodes was higher than that at the output, or was it to prevent any possible DC voltage on the diodes if the pedal was plugged into something else that wasn't built right?
It's purely JIC. Not really necessary, but it doesn't hurt and adds almost no cost to the product.
Quote from: midwayfair3) Someone mentioned the Darlington front end being limited by the DC resistance. It's fully bypassed by the fuzz pot, so the higher gain is absolutely being used. But while we're on the subject, was the DC point set by the 2K important enough that you couldn't use the fuzz pot as the emitter resistor? ;)
As I recall (it's been a while), 1K pot sweep was more "natural" feeling than 2K. But I might be wrong.
Quote from: midwayfair5) I am still amazing the 8 Bit pot actually does what it does.
It seems logical to me, but then again I'm not an electronics expert.
Quote from: midwayfair on January 30, 2017, 04:37:16 PM
2) Was C3 added so that the amount of bass present at the clipping diodes was higher than that at the output, or was it to prevent any possible DC voltage on the diodes if the pedal was plugged into something else that wasn't built right?
- I actually remember discussing C3 being extraneous but the consensus was that there was a slight alteration in tone without it.
3) Someone mentioned the Darlington front end being limited by the DC resistance. It's fully bypassed by the fuzz pot, so the higher gain is absolutely being used. But while we're on the subject, was the DC point set by the 2K important enough that you couldn't use the fuzz pot as the emitter resistor? ;)
- We originally had that but it turned out there was a bit of scratchiness with the Fuzz pot turn so it was changed to what you see now.
5) I am still amazing the 8 Bit pot actually does what it does.
It's our fuzz unicorn.
can I just say that I think it's awesome that you actually post feedback here and tell people if they traced it correctly. Amazing!
Quote from: midwayfair on January 30, 2017, 04:37:16 PM
Someone mentioned the Darlington front end being limited by the DC resistance. It's fully bypassed by the fuzz pot, so the higher gain is absolutely being used
Not my area of expertise but there is some intrinsic resistance in the emitter, nominally 26 ohms at some reference current (1mA?). With two tandem emitters you're getting at least 2x that. So gain is limited ~ 2k/52 = ~38 fully bypassed outside of the transistors. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it. ;D
Quote from: EBRAddict on January 30, 2017, 07:20:16 PM
Quote from: midwayfair on January 30, 2017, 04:37:16 PM
Someone mentioned the Darlington front end being limited by the DC resistance. It's fully bypassed by the fuzz pot, so the higher gain is absolutely being used
Not my area of expertise but there is some intrinsic resistance in the emitter, nominally 26 ohms at some reference current (1mA?). With two tandem emitters you're getting at least 2x that. So gain is limited ~ 2k/52 = ~38 fully bypassed outside of the transistors. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it. ;D
I'm sorry, I thought you meant that the gain was limited to 2K. But yes, you're right -- the gain is 38x at the right current.
Guys, that's the exact gain of a 12AX7! It should totes be in your product literature that the gain structure mimics that of a dimed tube preamp! :P
QuoteJon, I knew you would swoop in and point out all the bad things
As soon as I hit the Post button, I thought to myself "I am such a negative person sometimes." Thanks for calling me out on it.
QuoteAs I recall (it's been a while), 1K pot sweep was more "natural" feeling than 2K. But I might be wrong.
I meant using the pot in a voltage divider arrangement like the Fuzz Face with the 1KC. 2K would sound different because you have an extra 1K of resistance to get through before you get to the meat of it. It lowers the collector voltage, too.
Not actually being critical, I was legitimately curious about some of these. You guys have a whole team involved and PCB space and components aren't free, so I assume the decisions were not made without consideration.
Quote from: midwayfair on January 30, 2017, 07:39:43 PM
As soon as I hit the Post button, I thought to myself "I am such a negative person sometimes." Thanks for calling me out on it.
I don't really see it that way. Truthfully, it's not easy to justify every design decision after-the-fact because the process on this one spanned a few months. We did a proto, it had a few problems, we tweaked around those and once it sounded good that was the stopping point. Most of the time-to-production was mired in other less fun details in getting a pedal business going. Anyway, Forrest is great at coming up with really interesting circuits without bogging stuff down, and I'm pretty good at identifying and fixing problems. I tend to throw everything-but-the-kitchen-sink in my ideas and Forrest talks me off the ledge and makes it a better product. We work pretty well together that way. And, Dave writes the checks.
Haha, I'm kidding. We don't pay ourselves.
And, not to discount Dave's input because it's pretty huge and he's got a great ear. Plus he does a lot of things I definitely don't want to do!
Quote from: midwayfair on January 30, 2017, 07:39:43 PM
Guys, that's the exact gain of a 12AX7! It should totes be in your product literature that the gain structure mimics that of a dimed tube preamp! :P
Noted, haha. ;D
Quote from: midwayfairAs soon as I hit the Post button, I thought to myself "I am such a negative person sometimes." Thanks for calling me out on it.
I was trying to be funny, actually. Your comments/questions are well founded. And truthfully, some of the things we did in the design were best guesses rather than carefully calculated. It's fuzz, after all: The more mindless you are in the design, the better the results. Or something like that. :)
Quote from: midwayfairI meant using the pot in a voltage divider arrangement like the Fuzz Face with the 1KC.
I read it that way, actually. I just meant that using 2K as the emitter resistor / cap bypass pot didn't sound the same as the way we ended up with it. This change happened (and was not at all planned or expected) right as we were about to finalize production, so once it worked, we stopped asking why and were just glad of the positive outcome. And then we promptly stopped thinking about because we had to focusing on selling. :'(
well, that didn't take too long:
http://mklec.com/project-kits/guitar-effects-kits/function-fx-clusterfuzz-clone-kit
Oh damn, I didn't know the layout was available.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
well, not saying I like the idea at all. But at least he is not selling a pcb but the components to build it on vero.
mklec is a member here btw
We're famous!! ;D
Quote from: micromegas on May 23, 2017, 08:32:25 PM
well, not saying I like the idea at all. But at least he is not selling a pcb but the components to build it on vero.
mklec is a member here btw
As soon as something is publicly available, someone's gonna pull it apart and trace it. As long as that stays within the DIY realm I have no issue with that. Even with a PCB. Basically we all got into this to build effects and see how they work. A lot of that is building clones of already existing stuff.
It's only when arseholes start using those layouts in commercial products (JHS, etc) that I have an issue with it.
At the DIY level, I suspect that the people making whizzbang gonkulator copies on veroboard are the people who fairly surely wouldn't buy a commercial whizzbang gonkulator.
Quote from: juansolo on May 24, 2017, 08:23:40 AM
Quote from: micromegas on May 23, 2017, 08:32:25 PM
well, not saying I like the idea at all. But at least he is not selling a pcb but the components to build it on vero.
mklec is a member here btw
As soon as something is publicly available, someone's gonna pull it apart and trace it. As long as that stays within the DIY realm I have no issue with that. Even with a PCB. Basically we all got into this to build effects and see how they work. A lot of that is building clones of already existing stuff.
It's only when arseholes start using those layouts in commercial products (JHS, etc) that I have an issue with it.
I agree 100% and I guess most people in this forum would. I actually think that tracing pedals has helped to identify many of these companies and to clarify some situations (like the Vertex's wah thing). Moreover, it pushes the community to learn how to discern between a good quality and a bad quality product and to try new designs & ideas.
I presume that forum goers of FSB also have joined FCF (Free Capacitors Forum) and FRF (Free Resistors Forum), etc, etc. and make all their own components?
The way I see it is that someone somewhere is going to make money selling the required components. If someone wants to do the job of sourcing them all and putting them in a kit along with some instructions, other useful bits and provide some support why shouldn't they if people want to buy all that they need in one go from one place.
Quote from: micromegas on May 24, 2017, 09:54:39 AM
I agree 100% and I guess most people in this forum would. I actually think that tracing pedals has helped to identify many of these companies and to clarify some situations (like the Vertex's wah thing). Moreover, it pushes the community to learn how to discern between a good quality and a bad quality product and to try new designs & ideas.
There's a lot of truth to this.
Quote from: culturejam on May 24, 2017, 01:24:05 AM
We're famous!! ;D
Now we just need to work on being infamous!
Quote from: madbean on May 24, 2017, 11:51:55 AM
Now we just need to work on being infamous!
But first, we need a plethora of pedal products. That part is going slowly. ;D
Quote from: alanp on May 24, 2017, 09:38:02 AM
At the DIY level, I suspect that the people making whizzbang gonkulator copies on veroboard are the people who fairly surely wouldn't buy a commercial whizzbang gonkulator.
I agree, especially for dirt boxes and things with part counts < 50ish. Anybody who is enough of a masochist to regularly work with vero probably thinks buying pedals is for the weak and cowardly. ;D
Lol, most of my stuff is vero. I have to admit, I'm not a fan of doing those larger (for me) 25x25 builds.
I believe the ClusterFuzz was my 3rd vero build. Out of the 5 or so I've done it's the only one that worked straight off. The circuit is really really great. The guys at Function FX nailed this one for sure. And if anyone hears it/likes it they will be directed to their website. The circle of people I am around are pretty much clueless about what a resistor or a capacitor is.
I was primarily a vero builder until I discovered Madbean. I still use it occasionally for knocking together simple stuff. But am not as fond of it as I was I'll admit. Mainly down to just how much longer it takes to make it neat.
Quote from: juansolo on May 24, 2017, 04:29:22 PM
I was primarily a vero builder until I discovered Madbean. I still use it occasionally for knocking together simple stuff. But am not as fond of it as I was I'll admit. Mainly down to just how much longer it takes to make it neat.
That's my experience too I started with vero kits from bitsbox and still use vero but only for stuff I can't find a pcb for. The convenience of board mounted pots and minimal offboard wiring is way too easy to ignore.
I used to build a lot of vero when funds were very limited. Now I rarely use it.
I think the experience was very good as I also did a few vero layouts.
I use vero when I decide I need to build something right now. I keep a little on hand all the time.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Somewhere I remember finding a ton of vero layouts with board mounted pots. I think maybe scruffie made them a few years back. The Muff I tried making from that layout never worked though.
Quote from: Matmosphere on May 24, 2017, 11:01:31 PM
Somewhere I remember finding a ton of vero layouts with board mounted pots. I think maybe scruffie made them a few years back. The Muff I tried making from that layout never worked though.
I did, my computer tells me I made those back in 2010! I remember corresponding with blondegraemey about it and no that one didn't work, I can't remember if it was a lost cause or if we got it going though...
Quote from: Scruffie on May 25, 2017, 12:20:07 AM
Quote from: Matmosphere on May 24, 2017, 11:01:31 PM
Somewhere I remember finding a ton of vero layouts with board mounted pots. I think maybe scruffie made them a few years back. The Muff I tried making from that layout never worked though.
I did, my computer tells me I made those back in 2010! I remember corresponding with blondegraemey about it and no that one didn't work, I can't remember if it was a lost cause or if we got it going though...
At least it wasn't just me.
At any rate it was a cool idea and respectably small for that many parts on vero.
honestly you guys have always been so nice /friendly
what little i know .. i learned here
madbeaner for life
Quote from: neve1272 on May 27, 2017, 12:07:00 AM
honestly you guys have always been so nice /friendly
what little i know .. i learned here
madbeaner for life
Don't be fooled by the people here. Their motive is to sell you something.
Evil bastards
If this circuit ever passes into legend and cloner/boutiquers go crazy on it you could always fall back on the fact that your 1N4001's are from a very particular lot from a very particular manufacturer whose identity shall ever remain unknown. Yep. That'll do it.