Quick and dirty price rundown.

[Ekimneets]

I made a statement the other day that I had made the most expensive Klon clone ever. I based that on my damn the torpedos/spare no expense approach and not on data. That is unlike me and so I decided to crunch the numbers. I did a high/middle/low example. I did not include expenses related to business, that is no shipping, no advertizing, no insurance, etc. I wanted this to be DIY. I also did not include the use of a graphic artist or labor.

High includes having someone else powder coat, drill and print your enclosures. It would actually be a little higher if you did a single enclosure as this number was based on 12 that I had ordered. It includes mainly products from Mouser, PPP, small bear and my personal favorite Amplified Parts  , for a product I will never buy again, an LED footswitch. 1%mfr, diodes from mouser (except for the clippers), mostly 5% box film, gold plated IC sockets, Nichicon fine gold electros, Kobicon DC jacks, switchcraft guitar jacks, Davies knobs and I also included an arbitrary WAG of 5 dollars for disposables and supplies. That is wire, solder, solder tips, double sided tape, heat shrink tubing, etc.

Middle case includes buying an enclosure and having it powder coated then doing the drilling, graphics and water slide on your own. I arbitrarily included 3 dollars for water slide decal paper, envirotex, mixing cups etc. Again using 1%mfr (if you buy 200 at a time (only $3) then it's hard to buy cheaper unless you hit up eBay. Tayda diodes, 10% box film, run of the mill IC sockets, everyday pots, mammoth jacks, std footswitch,etc

Low example includes a prefinished enclosure from the likes of small bear or Lawrence again I included 3 bucks for decals and envirotex. Everything else was pretty much Tayda or eBay.

This is how it came out:

High: ~$77
Middle: ~$55
Low: ~$35

If you take the enclosures out of the equation (the most expensive item) then:

High: ~$52
Middle: ~$37
Low: ~$26

I guess part of it depends on your weltanschauung. My Dad is the most frugal person I've ever met. If you gave him a rock he'd be happy. I on the other hand could be given a Ferrari for free and would find something not to like about it.

I do think that with the more expensive parts, that you are bound to have less failures and better longevity. I have also made the same build with avg/below avg parts and premium ones and I can tell a difference in the tone.

It was really obvious that my best option to save money is to learn how to finish enclosures myself. I suck at water slide, but I've got a lot of it and got envirotex that I've never tried. I know Paul has a good video and I've seen others on YT and I have no doubt that there is a lot of good info right here.

I still think the only way my clone could have been more expensive would be if I had gotten genuine Hammond enclosures. On that, I had already spoken to someone familiar with enclosures and they stated there was not much of a difference in-between the two.

Anyway, those are my numbers for what it's worth.

-M

[thesmokingman]

seeing as replica enclosures are available from ceriatone you're not even beginning to approach the high end of klon klones

[Ekimneets]

So, I didn't even succeed at that. Oh well, c'est La vie!

In all seriousness, I didn't know this. I'm gonna go ove there and look.

BTW, is that a challenge

-Mike

[Ekimneets]

Thanks, the smoking man, that was educational.

-M

[gordo]

I always enjoy these posts as you've taken this thing we do to a clinical level. Most enjoyable. I'm fascinated now at the challenge of building the same, but simple pedal on the same pcb with top shelf and bottom shelf parts to see the difference. I'd put money on no difference but would like to be proven wrong...  The Klon is a great candidate.

[Ekimneets]

Gordo, I did high-end car stereos when I was younger and learned how to listen very critically. For those, I would listen at a pretty significant volume and to recordings that I am very familiar with. After awhile, I could tell a lot about acsystem just by really listening for awhile. To the vast majority of ppl, they would never hear the difference.

When I was listening to a really good system, you pick up on what kind of pick someone's using and how old the strings are. On the bass, you could hear the fingers slapping the strings, on the drums you could hear what brand of cymbal they were using and on the piano I could tell when the felt on the hammers was old. The brass brays and if it's loud enough, you can actually feel it.

I can't do that anymore, i'm Old and have hearing loss. What I hear now in pedals are things like what I would call flab or the lack of it. Some pedals just sound, tighter or more cohesive. This makes no sense, but distortion can be cohesive and organized to a degree or just complete chaos. Lows, mids and highs can be muted or accentuated. Obviously, you can hear compression. Then there is the onset of clipping, saturation, etc.

Maybe, I'm just making it up, but those are the sorts of things I listen for. Personally, I do hear a difference in-between parts. It's not always high-end to low-end. Sometimes it just different parts. It is more evident in things like diodes than say the difference in 5% or 10% capacitors though.

Just my .02.

-M

[mattc]

Wow, Cieratone wants $175 for a gold replica enclosure!

[Muadzin]

While I agree that there is a qualitative advantage by getting better components, as in less fail and less deviation, I don't subscribe to the idea that most expensive is best. At some point there is a diminishing return. Someone once told me on a forum, can't remember which, that some people spend thousands on getting 1 or 2% better returns. Is it worth to spend a lot more money on a little more analog sustain? If you do, then more power to ya, but personally I don't think so.

And that's excluding that the more expensive your gear becomes, the less likely you are that you're going to use it. A high end Epiphone probably sounds and plays better then a cheap Chibson. But are you more likely to play a $4000 Gibson out on the road then you are the Epi?

[Ekimneets]

I cannot find fault with what you are saying I took statistics in college and my science background argues for 95% confidence and that does not wash with my overkill.

I also cannot reconcile with the fact that I'm using the best tolerance components outside of the signal chain. So, once again I have to agree with you.

There is an absolute statistical threshold for significance and diminishing returns. I speak in terms of car stereos because I know that best. The easiest and least expensive way to improve you sound is to change the speakers. The difference in between a $50 pair of speakers and a $200 pair is massive. After that most people would probably not hear much of a difference.

In my last career, I made really good money and splurged on a $700 set if speakers for my car and it was money well spent to me. I can hear detail that you just can't hear in a lesser set. If you want you can spend many thousands of dollars more on a set of speakers for your car. However, you are talking about fractions of a percent in sound improvement and I agree its not worth it.

However, as I previously stated I once had a really good set of ears and my assumption is that they are a lot of guitar players out there who do too. I know they guy I've got doing my demos, has caught a one-step change in a capacitor on a Klon clone and a off-brand pot, which surprised the heck out of me.

I would rather spend a little extra and be sure. I can tell you that my choice of diodes was based on my listening and so was my insistence on matching sets of diodes to the original spec and each other. I would be willing to bet that even with my horrible guitar skills that most of you could pick up on different clipping diodes.

As was stated before though, its not that much more expensive to buy 5% box film over 10% or 1%MFR. So why not. Where I think it does matter is in things like the guitar jacks and the like. When I first started out all those many months ago  I was using some run of the mill enclosed guitar jacks. It was a fairly tight build and I had to bend the tabs to keep the two jacks from shorting on each other. I swear i only moved one of them twice and the tab broke off.

I switched over to switchcraft jacks and the material is much more substantial and I have not had any more problems. I think it's worth it. I don't buy Hammond enclosures, because I don't think they are worth the extra money. I base that on a conversation I had with a machinist in the business. So, I'm not just trying to throw away money.

A lot of it also stems from my background and my ignorance.

In my former life in neurosurgery, if you found that you were asking yourself if you should get a CT scan than you should and so many other things in that field, you just don't take chances. I admit that colors my judgement as well.

The part I think is most significant though is my ignorance. I do not have a background in electronics and I am not an engineer. I have just picked up things along the way. So often, I don't know if it's going to make a difference or not and so my default is to use the best.

Sorry, for the long post, just getting some stuff straight in my head too.

-Mike