Author Topic: Ethical issues - Selling/ building for others  (Read 19681 times)

LaceSensor

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Re: Ethical issues - Selling/ building for others
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2015, 08:10:52 AM »

heck, if I actually charged my pro rata hourly rate from my day job....my pedals would be like Cornish prices (!)  ::) 8)

Honestly I don't see a problem with that. You're not doing anything that he isn't. He totally charges based on the fact that he has some very famous users, that's all. Same goes for DAM and any other boutique builder.

Thats kind of you but I am not an expert pedal maker, electrical engineer or have any qualifications :P
Conversely I am a subject matter expert in my branch of day job (genomics, microarray), with academic qualifications and real world experience to back that up.
Plus, if I actually charged £35 an hour or whatnot noone would pay it ;)

juansolo

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Re: Ethical issues - Selling/ building for others
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2015, 08:41:32 AM »
Yet I see people peddling their wares that aren't as well made as yours for much more...

You may not be qualified but you have experience and skill. That counts easily as much as qualifications in my book. Thankfully that was also the case in my last real job as I had no qualifications, just experience.

Agree though, people wont pay for it because they expect you to build something by hand, that's a custom one off, for the price of something mass produced and made in China in the cheapest possible way.

People are arses.

I think I've reached a point, I shall call it the Meh-Point. It's like an epiphany wrapped in lethargy. The realisation that people are arses and the fact that I've ceased caring. I wish everyone the best and all. But you know what, I just don't care any more. At some point I'll have to again. But I'm using the theory that the sale of the race car keeps me going for 10 months and if I sell the Porsche this year also, that should keep me going at least another year. During that time I can chill, make some pedals and not care about working for arseholes in a company that is intrinsically evil, or indeed having to appease demanding/awkward customers.

I feel the civilised world, society or whatever you want to call it, is doomed. Greed, selfishness and corruption are rife and go unpunished. That and this generation's sense of entitlement will see it all go to hell before long.


Edit: I may have gone off on a slight tangent there...
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 10:43:43 AM by juansolo »
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LizardKing

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Re: Ethical issues - Selling/ building for others
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2015, 09:39:59 AM »
Yet I see people peddling their wares that aren't as well made as yours for much more...

You may not be qualified but you have experience and skill. That counts easily as much as qualifications in my book. Thankfully that was also the case in my last real job as I had no qualifications, just experience.

Agree though, people wont pay for it because they expect you to build something by hand, that's a custom one off, for the price of something mass produced and made in China in the cheapest possible way.

People are arses.

I think I've reached a point, I shall call it the Meh-Point. It's like an epiphany wrapped in lethargy. The realisation that people are arses and the fact that I've ceased caring. I wish everyone the best and all. But you know what, I just don't care any more. At some point I'll have to again. But I'm using the theory that the sale of the race car keeps me going for 10 months and if I sell the Porsche this year also, that should keep me going at least another year. During that time I can chill, make some pedals and not care about working for arseholes in a company that is intrinsically evil, or indeed having to appease demanding/awkward customers.

I feel the civilised world, society or whatever you want to call it is doomed. Greed, selfishness and corruption are rife and go unpunished. That and this generation's sense of entitlement will see it all go to hell before long.


Edit: I may have gone off on a slight tangent there...

Yet, I feel exactly the same way.
I think quite a few others on this forum do too though I do hope that I do not ever have to care again.
Those worth caring about are few and far between, may God give me the grace to tolerate the rest....


pickdropper

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Re: Ethical issues - Selling/ building for others
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2015, 10:37:25 AM »
Yet I see people peddling their wares that aren't as well made as yours for much more...

You may not be qualified but you have experience and skill. That counts easily as much as qualifications in my book. Thankfully that was also the case in my last real job as I had no qualifications, just experience.

Agree though, people wont pay for it because they expect you to build something by hand, that's a custom one off, for the price of something mass produced and made in China in the cheapest possible way.


There's certainly truth to both of those statements (quality and customer expectations), but there is a third factor if you look at it from a customer's point of view: resale value.

A lot of people buy pedals with the intention of trying them in their rig and seeing what happens.  If they don't work out, they flip them and (usually) take a bit of a hit, but can still reclaim there money and move on to the next flavor of the month pedal.  Resale value on pedals from unknown builders can be tough, in large part because people have a difficult time quantifying exactly what it is.  This is often even worse if it's a direct copy of a commercial pedal. 

I think most of us take these things in consideration to some extent as well. I'd certainly pay more to try out a name brand pedal knowing that the market has set a reasonable used price for it than for a custom pedal that I knew would take me a long time to sell, and likely at a significant loss at that.

I think this changes a bit when people can try the pedals out in person.  That takes a bit of the guesswork out of it and people are more likely to make an informed decision.  It also gives people the chance to judge in person the quality and the uniqueness of the pedal.
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juansolo

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Re: Ethical issues - Selling/ building for others
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2015, 10:54:17 AM »
Oh resale is god in the pedal world. Of this there is no doubt. The intrinsic value of ANYTHING guitar related is not how it sounds, how it plays, or how well made it is. It's how much you can sell it on for. That I suspect is where a lot of my angst comes from. Because what is the point in building the best, something you can take pride in, when no one actually cares.

It's why I don't like building for most people. There are a few who appreciate this and actually just want really good effects, and those guys I have a LOT of time for. But they are in such a small minority it's depressing.

But I also understand it from their perspective. Guitarists go through gear like addicts, so that's how they've got to think.

What it does mean is that if you want to get established and be the next Klon, you have to play the game. Hype, waiting lists, TGP, etc. It might involve selling your soul a little, but maybe that's what has to be done now?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 11:02:05 AM by juansolo »
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midwayfair

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Re: Ethical issues - Selling/ building for others
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2015, 12:03:25 PM »
That and this generation's sense of entitlement will see it all go to hell before long.

Myself's music & things I make: http://jonpattonmusic.com. My band: http://midwayfair.org. PCBs of my designs from: http://www.1776Effects.com (Bearhug Comp & Cardinal Harmonic Trem); http://www.jmkpcbs.com (Hamlet+ delay & Blue Warbler envelope vibe); Snow Day OD/Flabulanche: www.madbeanpedals.com

juansolo

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Re: Ethical issues - Selling/ building for others
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2015, 12:26:53 PM »
;) You know what I mean.

People are used to getting their own way, they've been brought up like that, schooled like that and it makes it through to adulthood.

You're allowed to be grumpy when you're old too. It's one of the benefits.
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thesameage

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Re: Ethical issues - Selling/ building for others
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2015, 12:33:40 PM »

What it does mean is that if you want to get established and be the next Klon, you have to play the game. Hype, waiting lists, TGP, etc. It might involve selling your soul a little, but maybe that's what has to be done now?

I sympathize and don't mean to offend, but this is and has always been the case with success with few exceptions. No one is pure. Name of the game. Might as well embrace it! :)

juansolo

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Re: Ethical issues - Selling/ building for others
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2015, 12:35:20 PM »
Indeed :) Doesn't mean I have to like it ;)

Don't mind me, I'm in a funny bloody mood today, it'll pass...  ;D I have a feeling I might be turning into some sort of hippy.

I really should be doing some decals, but I'm not feeling it right now.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 12:39:29 PM by juansolo »
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thesameage

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Re: Ethical issues - Selling/ building for others
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2015, 12:52:50 PM »
Most people don't like it. It's why you have so many successful people who have drug issues.

juansolo

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Re: Ethical issues - Selling/ building for others
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2015, 04:41:05 PM »
Nah, that's just because they're weak. ;)
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alanp

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Re: Ethical issues - Selling/ building for others
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2015, 10:00:28 PM »
A lot of people buy pedals with the intention of trying them in their rig and seeing what happens.  If they don't work out, they flip them and (usually) take a bit of a hit, but can still reclaim there money and move on to the next flavor of the month pedal.  Resale value on pedals from unknown builders can be tough, in large part because people have a difficult time quantifying exactly what it is.  This is often even worse if it's a direct copy of a commercial pedal. 

This is wholly alien to my mindset -- I don't think I would be able to bring myself to do it.

My mindset is --

1. Research, research, research. Ask around what other people think of it (people whose opinions you respect), find out historical information (this doesn't always happen, depending on how it strikes me), nerd out a bit.

2. Assess. Do I have something that covers this already? Will I enjoy building it enough to negate that? (I still have no idea why I've built so many big muff pedals.) Is the cash outlay worth it?

3. Save up. Save save save. I hate getting loans, hire purchase, or lay-by.

4. Buy.

5. Wait for the goddamn shipping.

6. Enjoy!

7. Hang onto it and never sell.

I think the only guitar pedal I've bought is my Pitchblack tuner.
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pickdropper

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Re: Ethical issues - Selling/ building for others
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2015, 10:51:18 PM »
A lot of people buy pedals with the intention of trying them in their rig and seeing what happens.  If they don't work out, they flip them and (usually) take a bit of a hit, but can still reclaim there money and move on to the next flavor of the month pedal.  Resale value on pedals from unknown builders can be tough, in large part because people have a difficult time quantifying exactly what it is.  This is often even worse if it's a direct copy of a commercial pedal. 

This is wholly alien to my mindset -- I don't think I would be able to bring myself to do it.

My mindset is --

1. Research, research, research. Ask around what other people think of it (people whose opinions you respect), find out historical information (this doesn't always happen, depending on how it strikes me), nerd out a bit.

2. Assess. Do I have something that covers this already? Will I enjoy building it enough to negate that? (I still have no idea why I've built so many big muff pedals.) Is the cash outlay worth it?

3. Save up. Save save save. I hate getting loans, hire purchase, or lay-by.

4. Buy.

5. Wait for the goddamn shipping.

6. Enjoy!

7. Hang onto it and never sell.

I think the only guitar pedal I've bought is my Pitchblack tuner.

I tend to be more of a researcher as well, mostly because I really don't enjoy the process of flipping gear.  But lots of folks seem to like it just fine.
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LaceSensor

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Re: Ethical issues - Selling/ building for others
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2015, 02:49:58 AM »
I dont flip stuff either
thats for fools
you almost always lose money...

a notable exception was buying a pack of 7 lovetone pedals to get the 3 I didnt have, then flipping the 4 duplicates. I actually almost made money on that (what a bastard I am!) I had to outlay over £2250 to get the 7 of them so I took a big risk on getting some money back. In the end I sold the other 4 for £2000 shipped, so for about £350 I got a Wobulator, Brown source, Big Cheese and the pedalboard... which by ebay rates are "worth" about £1000+

I prefer to try before I buy or at least have researched / listened to enough youtube and read all the reviews prior

playpunk

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Re: Ethical issues - Selling/ building for others
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2015, 09:13:21 AM »
I am squarely in the "hate flipping" category. I hate selling stuff, I hate shipping stuff.... It is hardly ever worth it.
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