I've had some time to reflect on the recent fallout from the Fall 2014 contest. I've also asked for and listened to opinions from some key forum members whose input I value very highly (not that I do not value any and all members here...these are just a few of my personal confidants). We had at least a few days of some very tense back and forth between members and moderators, contestants, et. al. about the perceived lack of communication and follow-through on the contest. There were a few exchanges I really hated to witness, and I know that I am not alone in that.
I would like to extend an apology to all members, and especially the contestants, for both the failure of the contest to be concluded in a reasonable time-frame and for the heated discussions that ensued because of it. The responsibility is ultimately mine and I take that seriously. Any failure here is my failure and no one else need take any of that on for themselves. And, I am not perfect by any means. I could have been more involved, and I could have framed some of my infrequent interjections in a more productive way.
I care very deeply about this community. It is basically a large part of my livelihood. I have my family, and I have my madbeanpedals family. I need both of these things to be whole and just as an argument with the wife or kid creates unease in my personal life, and argument, misunderstanding or feeling of disappointment by people in my madbeanpedals family also affects me in a very personal way. I think that many people here might feel the same.
So, please accept my apology on my behalf. There are many members here who are absolutely essential to the continued success and timbre of this small part of the DIY community. The thought of losing anyone from this community because of a failure on my part is very troubling. The idea that this could become something less than a supportive, welcoming and fun environment for all...well, it is pretty unthinkable. So, I will do better.
Moving forward, we need to decide whether or not we will continue to have contests and if we do how they might be framed to prevent any negative experiences like we recently had. My first inclination is to immediately try to right the wrong; have another contest, conclude it quickly and prove that this is something we can do successfully. But, perhaps that is not the thing to do...maybe a small cooling off period is in order to kind of smooth things over and reset naturally. I do think if we move forward with additional contests, it will be set up with solely a popular vote and one sponsor per contest, one grand prize. To me, that's the absolute minimal ingredient for success and we have done that before.
I will listen to any input, comments and/or criticisms you guys have to offer so feel free to express yourselves. Be assured that I do not take criticism personally....it's not about me as a person. It's about what we are here and what we want it to be. I would also like to extend a heartfelt thanks to Jacob for putting the contest together and concluding it successfully. It was a tough job, and even though it became bigger and more complicated than he imagined and it took much longer than we might have wanted, he saw it though. And, that matters.
Lastly...seriously? I didn't even place in the contest? This is a frikkin tough crowd. I mean...my box had frikkin lasers on it! And a wolf!
I think the contests are great, but this one was way to complicated. I'm not sure anybody understood all the categories and how it would all work. Keep it simple. First place, maybe second, determined by popular vote. It closes on time the winner is announced and it's done. Easy peasy.
The one thing I liked about this contest which also unfortunately contributed to its complexity, was the feeling that when entering there was actually a chance I might win something. Not that it's about winning but there are soooo many GREAT builds around here that it can be intimidating to even enter and really, the participation is the fun part. I don't know how you would remedy this but it's just my 2 cents. Maybe have an ugly pedal contest? Or messiest wiring contest? Haha
The bar is set very high which to me is inspiring and intimidating at the same time if that makes any sense.
This last contest was (I think) set up for failure. It was very complicated and the categories were not that well thought out or planned. Simple is better. Have 3 judges and 3 prizes. 1st place, runner up, and popular vote (decided after 1st place and runner up have been decided / announced). The prizes don't have to be big (the $25 is great, I think), and its (in my case) something I've already built. I don't build anything for the contests, I build for fun or a friend and enter them in the contest.
Personally, I think the apology was not needed at all, as I understand completely that a contest this complex needed a lot of time to close successfully.
I already expressed my opinion in the winners congrats thread - have em quarterly, offer three awards, nothing fancy, just enough to get us going, and that's it. I don't think only one victor per contest is a good idea because a lot of people will get discouraged fast and decide not to post their builds (I mean really, with some of the magnats posting here, it's no wonder).
Cheers!
Quote from: Cortexturizer on February 19, 2015, 06:05:49 PM
Personally, I think the apology was not needed at all, as I understand completely that a contest this complex needed a lot of time to close successfully.
I already expressed my opinion in the winners congrats thread - have em quarterly, offer three awards, nothing fancy, just enough to get us going, and that's it. I don't think only one victor per contest is a good idea because a lot of people will get discouraged fast and decide not to post their builds (I mean really, with some of the magnats posting here, it's no wonder).
Cheers!
Nothing more to add. I think Cortex expressed my opinions perfectly. I haven't entered a contest yet (shame on me), but I do love seeing how people pushes themselves to build special things. It would be a pity to lose such a thing.
I spent many years in my (soon to end) career supporting direct response marketing promotions. Obviously - even though you accept any build as a contest entry - the goal for you has to be to drive more traffic and ultimately generate sales. Promotions that are so complex that they take more than a few sentences to explain are likely to fail to deliver sales and in extreme cases can be counterproductive. Also, you have a great community and getting the community involved adds to the fun. I think you already got some good suggestions in this thread so I won't bother to repeat them. But thanks for the great site and unnecessary apology.
I would like to see a contest in which a requirement for entry is that the pedal must use a Madbean fabricated PCB. No categories. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and People's Choice winners. Done.
Quote from: culturejam on February 19, 2015, 06:57:04 PM
I would like to see a contest in which a requirement for entry is that the pedal must use a Madbean fabricated PCB. No categories. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and People's Choice winners. Done.
Maybe I'm simple, but I like this idea.
I am not even sure what happened as I have been pretty tied up the last few months and not spent much time in the forum until recently. Hope it all gets worked out. I need to go look at the contest/winners now. ;)
Quote from: Cortexturizer on February 19, 2015, 06:05:49 PM
Personally, I think the apology was not needed at all, as I understand completely that a contest this complex needed a lot of time to close successfully.
I already expressed my opinion in the winners congrats thread - have em quarterly, offer three awards, nothing fancy, just enough to get us going, and that's it. I don't think only one victor per contest is a good idea because a lot of people will get discouraged fast and decide not to post their builds (I mean really, with some of the magnats posting here, it's no wonder).
Cheers!
I also agree with this. Keep the judging simple so it is managable and maximise the fun.
Quarterly is great, we'll keep building anyway and having a showcase like a regular contest compliments the build reports section.
And really no apology needed, this is a fantastic place. It is great to care and look after that, acknowledge that and foster it.
Thanks for the input so far. Keep it coming.
Let me say that the reason an apology is necessary is because 1) I do genuinely feel sorry that things went down that way and 2) it is important to show accountability when things go wrong. So, let's not focus too much on the necessity of it, if that's okay.
I've judged a couple of these now and I think the next contest should be popular vote only. It's the fastest and cleanest way to get the results which would help get the contests back on track. You set up a definitive entry cutoff and then give a day or two for voting and then have a definitive vote cutoff.
I know Brian has been hesitant to limit entries to Madbean boards only, but I think doing at least one contest that way would be fun. If it feels like it's unfairly forcing people to buy boards, it could be opened to Madbean layouts so people could buy fabbed boards or etch their own.
Quote from: culturejam on February 19, 2015, 06:57:04 PM
I would like to see a contest in which a requirement for entry is that the pedal must use a Madbean fabricated PCB. No categories. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and People's Choice winners. Done.
If anything you could do madbean and affiliated sites. That would give plenty of variety.
Another thing that just occured to me is to focus the context around something more specific that just a madbean board:
For example:
a) You have to build an overdrive on a madbean board or a 2-in-1 using at least one madbean board/layout, etc... or a modulation effect
b) A new board is released and the contestants have to use it to create something special, artistically special or paired with other effect or just mod the hell out of it
Quote from: culturejam on February 19, 2015, 06:57:04 PM
I would like to see a contest in which a requirement for entry is that the pedal must use a Madbean fabricated PCB. No categories. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and People's Choice winners. Done.
This has legal issues: it requires a purchase. Considering you'd have to wrangle with sweepstakes laws, it's better to just ensure that it's no purchase necessary.
Quote from: midwayfair on February 19, 2015, 07:36:39 PM
This has legal issues: it requires a purchase. Considering you'd have to wrangle with sweepstakes laws, it's better to just ensure that it's no purchase necessary.
I have half a dozen madbean PCBs right now, and I haven't purchased any of them. Somebody, at some point, purchased them, but it wasn't me.
On the other hand, any contest entry is going to require purchases: parts, perfboard, paint, etc. You can't build a pedal without someone having bought the parts at some point in time. Purchases are always necessary.
Frankly, I doubt the sweepstakes police are going to be all that interested in a contest here. You never know, but I kinda doubt it.
Quote from: Luke51411 on February 19, 2015, 07:27:55 PM
Quote from: culturejam on February 19, 2015, 06:57:04 PM
I would like to see a contest in which a requirement for entry is that the pedal must use a Madbean fabricated PCB. No categories. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and People's Choice winners. Done.
If anything you could do madbean and affiliated sites. That would give plenty of variety.
I like this one. Madbean or a supported-forum PCB - and by simple popular vote. It would narrow the scope to be more reasonable and should be clear-cut and tidy to wrap up.
I love how this forum is unique with so many people making their own layouts and effects, but it's hard to compare an original layout vs. a pedal that looks better - and that's something I think the judging was supposed to compensate for.
Quote from: midwayfair on February 19, 2015, 07:36:39 PM
Quote from: culturejam on February 19, 2015, 06:57:04 PM
I would like to see a contest in which a requirement for entry is that the pedal must use a Madbean fabricated PCB. No categories. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and People's Choice winners. Done.
This has legal issues: it requires a purchase. Considering you'd have to wrangle with sweepstakes laws, it's better to just ensure that it's no purchase necessary.
No purchase necessary with vero:
http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/search/label/Madbean
I have always felt that this is a a very active community and it seems there are many of us (including myself) that can dedicate almost a daily time to participate in the forum discussions. I have a job that requires much desk time and with the help of multiple monitors, I am able to be on the forum most of the day. This is not the case for all people, some have demanding jobs, family life and other major hobbies. Just life in general can take away from things we love. I know what its like to get to wrapped up in life/other and loose track of time or realize I'm over my head. The biggest thing I learned that made a difference during these time is communication (like Brian & Jacob have both pointed out the lack of). I think 99% of the frustration could have been avoided by just more communication. Even the simple "Life is in the way of having fun at the moment" kind of response is better than nothing.
What I love about this forum was the fact that people here actually care for each other since we feel so connected with this hobby, its close knit for sure. If you notice the member first started asking if Jacob was OK and has anyone heard from him. I like how we already assume that something might be up when there is a delay. I never assume something is being neglected on purpose here like I would with other forums. Things can only get better from this point since we now have a good case of "what would go wrong if..." scenario.
In my personal case, I submitted a build I had done already and was not rushed to finish, well other than making a demo, which I am terrible at. But, some members worked very hard and pushed themselves to the last hour to finish their project to get submitted on time. That being said, I can definitely understand the frustrations surrounding this contest.
Since I finally built up some confidence to submit something (and getting runner up which I am SUPER excited about since there were so many awesome projects submitted) I would hate to see the contests be pulled. I think we all benefit from the push and a little competition to get us all to hone our craft. Just like other members have said, simpler would be less of a headache for sure. I do like the the idea of having a popular vote or runners up since it does add that "maybe I can win" factor to those of us that are still building confidence in our builds.
All in all it was a great contest and brought out some great projects and great demo and a few new members. So its a win in my book for sure. Thanks Brian for allowing us to use this great place for all aspects of DIY pedals/more and to build relationships with like minded individuals. I simple love this place and its the only forum I am active in for the reasons above.
Cody
Quote from: culturejam on February 19, 2015, 06:57:04 PM
I would like to see a contest in which a requirement for entry is that the pedal must use a Madbean fabricated PCB. No categories. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and People's Choice winners. Done.
Quote from: jubal81 on February 19, 2015, 07:44:08 PM
Quote from: Luke51411 on February 19, 2015, 07:27:55 PM
Quote from: culturejam on February 19, 2015, 06:57:04 PM
I would like to see a contest in which a requirement for entry is that the pedal must use a Madbean fabricated PCB. No categories. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and People's Choice winners. Done.
If anything you could do madbean and affiliated sites. That would give plenty of variety.
I like this one. Madbean or a supported-forum PCB - and by simple popular vote. It would narrow the scope to be more reasonable and should be clear-cut and tidy to wrap up.
and a road rage doesn't count :-X
I have not entered a contest mostly because I build for my own enjoyment; for me the work is its own reward.
But I LOVE to see the work people submit, especially this one, which happened during a really stressful time for me. Crazy how high the bar is.
So please don't take my approach, because then we won't get to see all the sweet pedals y'all are doing. ;)
I think its easy to forget how much time and effort goes into supporting a contest, and the prizes are super cool. A big thank you to all involved.
I like the popular vote with maybe a few categories vs 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or perhaps themes for each or a quarterly themed contest. ie New builder, overdrive, phaser, delay, etc.
Quote from: culturejam on February 19, 2015, 07:42:40 PM
Quote from: midwayfair on February 19, 2015, 07:36:39 PM
This has legal issues: it requires a purchase. Considering you'd have to wrangle with sweepstakes laws, it's better to just ensure that it's no purchase necessary.
I have half a dozen madbean PCBs right now, and I haven't purchased any of them. Somebody, at some point, purchased them, but it wasn't me.
On the other hand, any contest entry is going to require purchases: parts, perfboard, paint, etc. You can't build a pedal without someone having bought the parts at some point in time. Purchases are always necessary.
Frankly, I doubt the sweepstakes police are going to be all that interested in a contest here. You never know, but I kinda doubt it.
"Purchase Required" means a purchase from the contest sponsor, not just a purchase of materials from any supplier you wish.
* I like the idea of requiring an incorporation of Madbean or affiliated products, but a way to avoid the "purchase required" problem is to allow etchers to fab their own boards from the free Etcher's Paradise Emporium of Madbean Single-sided Layouts.
* take it with a grain of salt - I haven't even completed a build report yet, let alone entered a contest. Total newb here.
Quote from: Justus on February 19, 2015, 08:04:27 PM
"Purchase Required" means a purchase from the contest sponsor, not just a purchase of materials from any supplier you wish.
Just did a little reading. I'm not lawyer or paralegla, but I can Google. The "no purchase required" thing applies to sweepstakes, not contests. Contests are prohibited from requiring payment or purchase to *claim* a prize or other winnings, but there doesn't seem to be a prohibition on a purchase for entry.
What we're doing here is a
contest, which is judged on the skill of the entrant.
Sweepstakes have the element of chance involved in determining winners (ie - there is a random drawing), and are not skill-based. Sweepstakes are essentially lotteries that don't required any form of consideration from the entrants.
I got this from an interesting article summarizes the relevant laws:
Because chance is not key to winning, contest sponsors may require entrants to provide consideration to enter, although some states limit the types of consideration that may be requested.Not sure if Tennessee law would prevail here, or if the laws in all the states of the entrants would need to be adhered to.
To blather further on the law...
I just read that some states consider any effort required to enter a contest to be "consideration", so building a pedal itself is tantamount to paying an entry fee or being required to buy a specific item from a specific vendor, legally speaking.
Interesting stuff.
I like the idea of a contest now and then with MadBean and affiliated forums. Since the thought of being forced to buy boards has been brought up, maybe that could be overcome with each forum that wants to enter also providing prizes. That way the community from both sides are taking care of each other.
Personally the thought of having to buy a board to enter the contest doesn't bother me. Heck, it provides an excuse. :)
Does there have to be judges at all? Popular vote and it's settled. This community is more than willing to handle that responsibility. The winners are announced and the place they finished. Maybe the number of places could coincide with the number of affiliates who want to be a part and who have provided prizes. The finishers are told to contact the vendor with the mailing details.
QuoteLet me say that the reason an apology is necessary is because 1) I do genuinely feel sorry that things went down that way and 2) it is important to show accountability when things go wrong. So, let's not focus too much on the necessity of it, if that's okay.
I totally get the apology (I think) and appreciate it (not that I was directly affected by the issue at hand). I'm not a longtime forum member, but I VERY MUCH appreciate the positive, supportive tone here and I've DEFINITELY benefited from the deep wells of member expertise (never mind the AWESOME project PCB's). Hopefully, amongst my meager 155 posts, I've also contributed something helpful or positive. The sniping dialogue associated with the most recent contest was isolated, but a real bummer and had me avoiding threads on otherwise interesting topics (which of the fantastic builds were in for prizes?). That doubly sucked, for me anyway.
So, moving forward ... like others have said, the builds submitted in MB contests set the bar almost ridiculously high (enough to put me off submitting ... and that was BEFORE recordings were added), BUT they're REALLY inspiring stuff all the same. It would be great to see the contests continue. PCB, vero or otherwise ... all submissions generate interest and offer inspiration. A big +1 though to a simple voting system with prizes allocated purely on voting results ... members will decide what most inspires and impresses them, be it inspired amateur or semi-professional. Who know's? Only the Shadow.
One man's opinion, nothing more. Thanks for everything, Brian. You do great work and provide a great service.
Quote from: brucer on February 19, 2015, 10:34:58 PM
QuoteLet me say that the reason an apology is necessary is because 1) I do genuinely feel sorry that things went down that way and 2) it is important to show accountability when things go wrong. So, let's not focus too much on the necessity of it, if that's okay.
I did certainly not want to diminish or wipe away the apology, it is great in the sense of accountability and respect shown all over this forum even when things get a bit out of hand to get things back straight again. Certainly get that.
Thinking a bit more about it I would also think to make it as easy and straight forward as possible is just 3 placings by popular vote, relativly low key prizes (after all none of us is here for the money or the girls... right?). That will mean a fixed timeframe to submit entries, a fixed timeframe to get results and celebrate. This community is active and responsible enough to do that.
I also would think it is good to have another contest soon to blow these cobwebs out and to look forward.
As this was my first contest, this one was important for me. I never thought I'd have a chance since the bar is set really high as mentioned. Winning was not the reason I participated. I just wanted to take the next step in the community by submitting the pedal I liked best of the applicable period. There was no stress involved at all, just pure fun! And that's the reason I definitely want the contests to continue in the future in one way or the other. Just having a look at the older contests, is one big collection of pure awesome.
Personally, I like the approach with judges. It takes time and effort, but I had the feeling that the judges just have a deeper understanding of the build and the build quality from many aspects. I just think "Hey, that one is pretty/neat/great artwork" and vote for it, often without considering other aspects. Nevertheless, I think one overall winner plus maybe two categories is enough. the Categories could change from contest to contest so everyone could participate when they see their strong suit as a category. Not everyone is good at or even cares about exterior design but might love pcb layouting. others don't care for guts and work wonders on the outside...
I think a quarterly contest could be a good approach as organisation, sponsoring and voting would be kept at a manageable level
Quote from: cooder on February 19, 2015, 10:51:34 PM
after all none of us is here for the money or the girls... right?
My electronics teacher once told us: "you'll never impress a girl with electronics. 'I've got a four channel oscilloscope' was never a good pick-up line." :D
Communication breakdown, a simple update/word here and there would have avoided most/all of the pissing that eventually took over.
Keep it simple and personally, i'd prefer not knowing or being able to see the vote count until the voting is closed, keep everyone on the edge of their seats, an element of surprise, it's not over until the last ballot is counted.
dave
Quote from: davent on February 19, 2015, 11:18:52 PM
Keep it simple and personally, i'd prefer not knowing or being able to see the vote count until the voting is closed, keep everyone on the edge of their seats, an element of surprise, it's not over until the last ballot is counted.
dave
I like this idea also.
Cody
Quote from: brucer on February 19, 2015, 10:34:58 PM
The sniping dialogue associated with the most recent contest was isolated, but a real bummer and had me avoiding threads on otherwise interesting topics (which of the fantastic builds were in for prizes?). That doubly sucked, for me anyway.
I hope this isn't referencing my comments in the voting thread, which I eternally regret making. Not my brightest moment by any measure; I pray I will react more constructively the next time I am dealing with many painful things, as I was then.
Regardless, I am deeply sorry if I caused you or anyone else to avoid any topics or posts you may have otherwise enjoyed.
I am thankful to still be a member, even if I'm less active these days.
However, if my continued participation is taking away from other's enjoyment, I will leave you all with my very best wishes...
But I sure hope that's not the case and that I can continue to try to provide positive support where I can, even if its just to say "awesome!" on someone's build report. 'Cause it is.
I agree with Cody and Dave that communication along the way would have probably kept everyone happy. Personally, I wasn't particularly bothered by how long everything took, but I also wasn't expecting to win anything once I saw the popular vote and the onslaught of amazing builds my pedal was up against.
For the contestants who were really eager to see something happen, I think a weekly update would have sufficed, even if the update was to say, "Sorry y'all. Life is just too crazy right now. Maybe next week."
As far as how to run the contest, I was kind of glad to have the mix of popular vote and judges panel. My pedal was white noise in the popular vote. I feel like some of the aspects of my build that were really challenging might not have been apparent to most people. It was really affirming to read what Jacob wrote about my build and to know that the work didn't go unnoticed.
Maybe in the future the judges could decide which categories pedals are entered in instead of having the contestants choose. I was also thinking it might be cool to have 3 "simple" contests and one "epic" contest in the course of a year. Although if the judges are saying, "never again," I understand.
I hope contests don't go away. This was good for me. I thank Stomptown for nudging me into it or I wouldn't have done it.
I also appreciate what Brian has built here and that he is careful to foster it to stay positive. It's the only forum of any kind that I participate in because I don't feel like I have time for drivel and flame wars. His decision to not lock a volatile thread was wise and showed faith in this community. Bravo.
I'm hearing pretty continually here that people would have appreciated more communication.
I'm really sorry for letting the community down in such a manner. I tried my best, but I failed. I feel really awful about it, and for the conversation that ensued. I'm sorry, and I ask for your forgiveness.
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on February 20, 2015, 01:30:40 AM
I'm hearing pretty continually here that people would have appreciated more communication.
I'm really sorry for letting the community down in such a manner. I tried my best, but I failed. I feel really awful about it, and for the conversation that ensued. I'm sorry, and I ask for your forgiveness.
Jacob
Hey Jacob, the way I got it figured is when the rest of us are perfect and never over commit and never have life get busy and never fail THEN we have the right to get mad at you. But until we stop messing up, I guess we should probably just extend love and grace. Don't beat yourself up brother. The issues have been addressed, the lessons have been learned. Now it's time to move on and build. :)
Quote from: selfdestroyer on February 19, 2015, 11:35:02 PM
Quote from: davent on February 19, 2015, 11:18:52 PM
Keep it simple and personally, i'd prefer not knowing or being able to see the vote count until the voting is closed, keep everyone on the edge of their seats, an element of surprise, it's not over until the last ballot is counted.
dave
I like this idea also.
Cody
I like this idea too! I've always been a fan of the judging process for the reasons Leevibe mentioned but it really makes sense to keep it simple going forward. This does not mean we can't have a big contest from now and then with judges but it is a lot to ask to do quarterly contests with judging no matter how simple we try to make it; and it sounds like there is a lot of desire for quarterly contests, which I support.
In addition to Dave's ideas I think we could
reduce voters bias towards aesthetics by requiring voters to use each of their votes for different criteria. One vote could go for aesthetics, one for best guts and one for best design, etc. The three pedals that receive the most votes would still win the prizes but this would increase the likelihood that a great design or superior soldering/wiring job is recognized too. Of course, this cannot really be enforced but we've got a great group of guys who could make this happen! Like Dave said, we wouldn't know any of the results (if possible) until the bell sounds. :o Thoughts?...
Quote from: Stomptown on February 20, 2015, 03:49:49 AM
Quote from: selfdestroyer on February 19, 2015, 11:35:02 PM
Quote from: davent on February 19, 2015, 11:18:52 PM
Keep it simple and personally, i'd prefer not knowing or being able to see the vote count until the voting is closed, keep everyone on the edge of their seats, an element of surprise, it's not over until the last ballot is counted.
dave
I like this idea also.
Cody
I like this idea too! I've always been a fan of the judging process for the reasons Leevibe mentioned but it really makes sense to keep it simple going forward. This does not mean we can't have a big contest from now and then with judges but it is a lot to ask to do quarterly contests with judging no matter how simple we try to make it; and it sounds like there is a lot of desire for quarterly contests, which I support.
In addition to Dave's ideas I think we could reduce voters bias towards aesthetics by requiring voters to use each of their votes for different criteria. One vote could go for aesthetics, one for best guts and one for best design, etc. The three pedals that receive the most votes would still win the prizes but this would increase the likelihood that a great design or superior soldering/wiring job is recognized too. Of course, this cannot really be enforced but we've got a great group of guys who could make this happen! Like Dave said, we wouldn't know any of the results (if possible) until the bell sounds. :o Thoughts?...
I like the idea of different categories, but I think it would be fun to do it per contest. One contest is aesthetics, the next one could be wiring, or something like that. People may plan their builds differently if the entire contest is based on one criteria. It might also help folks sharpen specific skills. Just a though.
Quote from: billstein on February 20, 2015, 02:10:33 AM
Quote from: jkokura on February 20, 2015, 01:30:40 AM
I'm hearing pretty continually here that people would have appreciated more communication.
I'm really sorry for letting the community down in such a manner. I tried my best, but I failed. I feel really awful about it, and for the conversation that ensued. I'm sorry, and I ask for your forgiveness.
Jacob
Hey Jacob, the way I got it figured is when the rest of us are perfect and never over commit and never have life get busy and never fail THEN we have the right to get mad at you. But until we stop messing up, I guess we should probably just extend love and grace. Don't beat yourself up brother. The issues have been addressed, the lessons have been learned. Now it's time to move on and build. :)
Well said and so true, completly agree.
Quote from: pickdropper on February 20, 2015, 03:56:54 AM
I like the idea of different categories, but I think it would be fun to do it per contest. One contest is aesthetics, the next one could be wiring, or something like that. People may plan their builds differently if the entire contest is based on one criteria. It might also help folks sharpen specific skills. Just a though.
If we do a contest based on aesthetics and attractiveness, I think I'd win the booby prize :P
Agreed with what Leevibe and others have said.
Perhaps judges give points for technical achievement then the popular vote is added to that for the final outcome...
Just a thought..
I missed all of this but I really appreciate the personal feelings of those involved. It is the reason I hang around here. This is not a pretend community. It is at least as personal as an Internet based community can be. And as with all endeavors, it filters down from the top. So impressed with Brian falling on the sword. A good man with feelings for his people. Thank you Brian.
Quote from: alanp on February 20, 2015, 04:42:31 AM
Quote from: pickdropper on February 20, 2015, 03:56:54 AM
I like the idea of different categories, but I think it would be fun to do it per contest. One contest is aesthetics, the next one could be wiring, or something like that. People may plan their builds differently if the entire contest is based on one criteria. It might also help folks sharpen specific skills. Just a though.
If we do a contest based on aesthetics and attractiveness, I think I'd win the booby prize :P
Agreed with what Leevibe and others have said.
Alan said booby! Hehe! :P
The reason this contest fell down is because it was too complicated.
If you wanna keep running them, just do them quarterly or something with one prize, and allow the forum members to cast the votes.
This absolves any admin/other focal point person of "running" the contest other than starting the thread and writing the rules.
Ergo, no delays, no miscomms, everyone knows where they stand, the contests are "acheivable" in terms of pulling them together, and everyone is hopefully happy.
Also: I didnt place? that pedal was a complete sod to build... ;)
Thinking about Dave's idea of withholding vote tally until the end. What if there were a full on blind vote? Contestants would have to submit via PM or some private means. After the deadline, submissions would be posted by a mod sans names. As a voter, it would be fun to guess who the builder is. In some cases it would be obvious, but there could be fun surprises too. This could also remove popularity from coloring the popular vote, if that's even a concern. I have no idea how hard this would be to administrate. Just a creative idea.
Quote from: Leevibe on February 20, 2015, 02:42:57 PMContestants would have to submit via PM or some private means.
oh god no.
Polls can be set to not show the results. That's already a secret ballot.
Quote from: midwayfair on February 20, 2015, 03:10:49 PM
Quote from: Leevibe on February 20, 2015, 02:42:57 PMContestants would have to submit via PM or some private means.
oh god no.
Polls can be set to not show the results. That's already a secret ballot.
I was talking about voters not knowing the identity of the contestants.
Quote from: midwayfair on February 20, 2015, 03:10:49 PM
Quote from: Leevibe on February 20, 2015, 02:42:57 PMContestants would have to submit via PM or some private means.
oh god no.
Polls can be set to not show the results. That's already a secret ballot.
This would be interested.. :)
Quote from: Leevibe on February 20, 2015, 03:12:43 PM
I was talking about voters not knowing the identity of the contestants.
Thing is, anyone who has posted a few builds here, you can guess who built a "secretly posted" entry.
You know exactly what my pedal builds tend to look like.
Timbo's are even more obvious.
Juan's stick out like the dog's proverbial (except Juan's builds you'd want to see.)
Quote from: Leevibe on February 20, 2015, 03:12:43 PM
Quote from: midwayfair on February 20, 2015, 03:10:49 PM
Quote from: Leevibe on February 20, 2015, 02:42:57 PMContestants would have to submit via PM or some private means.
oh god no.
Polls can be set to not show the results. That's already a secret ballot.
I was talking about voters not knowing the identity of the contestants.
This disadvantages the people whose work is not well known around the forum, because theirs is the only work that isn't already known. Do you think if I submitted something everyone wouldn't know immediately whose entry it was? I would recognize anything done by Dave, Cody, Alan, John, and Jon (and others) in just about the same way a lot of people knew exactly which members I was talking about just now based on their first names.
You'd further have to tell people they can't enter something with their name/logo on it anywhere, etc. There is no way to have blind entries to vote on, never mind the extra work you're talking about creating for whoever's in charge of the contest, who has to corral the entries and post them all themself.
Yeah, I see what you're saying and I can definitely agree. Still, it might be a fun challenge for some of the more advanced builders with a signature style to see if they could fool everyone by going outside of their box.
Anyway, it was just a creative notion. I'm not married to the idea and I really don't know the first thing about the inner workings of a contest. I have a sense that it's way more work than meets the eye. And I really appreciate the work and effort some of you put in to make it fun for the rest of us. Thanks!
Quote from: Leevibe on February 20, 2015, 02:42:57 PM
Thinking about Dave's idea of withholding vote tally until the end. What if there were a full on blind vote? Contestants would have to submit via PM or some private means. After the deadline, submissions would be posted by a mod sans names. As a voter, it would be fun to guess who the builder is. In some cases it would be obvious, but there could be fun surprises too. This could also remove popularity from coloring the popular vote, if that's even a concern. I have no idea how hard this would be to administrate. Just a creative idea.
I like the idea of submissions held until all submitted. The big reveal, 24 hours for electioneering/digesting then a 24 hour period for voting.
Might be diificult to keep builder identities anonymous with build reports, posting on other forums etc. but if there's a way to manage it (simply)... yeah.
dave
Funny, i completely missed the drama. Had to read up a bit when i saw this thread. Maybe proving again that my forum activity is... on and off. And i have been more into guitars than pedals lately.
This forum is great. Friendly and helpful. And fun. Let's keep it that way. Apologizes can take many shapes. I appreciate this threads' public address; its a (one of many) sign(s) of a very well and healthy administrated forum! Good things goin on, and good things to come, Brian.
The "drama zone" thread left me a bit sad though. There's still place for at least one more apology there. Not dipping my nose deeper into that.
***
When it comes to poll contests i actually like them completely open. You can follow the votes progression and keep a discussion in parallell. Much fun.
Just my 50 öre.
Cheers!
I've been thinking about the things that are fun about having a contest like this, and for me, they are a) getting inspired by everyone's cool build, b)getting to hear the judges' reasons for choosing builds (ie, looking back at the summaries from the spring contest), and what they thought important or impressive about each, and c) the motivation to make something really great. Part of this motivation came from the time limit, some came from the steep competition, some came from the chance at a prize, and some came from the chance that I might actually win some recognition, since I felt somewhat encouraged (at least at the time I entered) about my odds in that new builder category.
In the interest of keeping all the fun stuff, I would propose:
1) a space for folks to talk about what they liked about/why thy voted for a certain build. It doesn't have to be the poll thread; that would make the "hidden poll results" less hidden. Not sure how to best implement this if we do keep voting secret.
2) less valuable prizes: this takes some of the emphasis off of winning, but I think folks will still be motivated to enter for the other reasons I listed above. $15 credit?
3) multiple winners for each contest; I probably wouldn't have entered the fall contest if there was only going to be one winner. If there are too few slots, folks might feel like "I'll never win, what's the point?", and if there are too many, folks might feel slighted if they don't win one that they feel they deserved. Maybe top 3?
4) also keeping in mind folks' different motivations and skill levels, I do sort of like the idea of having different rotating themes or constraints for each contest, like, best original circuit for one, or another contest where it's all multis, or something. That would eventually give everyone a chance to show off what they do best.
5) "poll voting" on the forum takes a lot of the work out of it, let's keep it simple. We can even ditch the "theme" idea if that requires too much oversight or handling. Or, hmm, maybe we could put the theme up for popular vote, before each contest starts.
If we keep it simple, and the prizes small, we could do this every quarter.
My two cents about the contests...
I have watched many contests over they years, and the majority of them have a season. The main reason they come and go is because of administration, and the expectations of the participants. At DIYSB we saw a rotating theme based contest that was monthly go to quarterly and then disappear. And, as I'm reading all your suggestions, I'm just imagining the nightmare of running any one of your suggestions. Either it'll be too little and become something along the lines of a popularity contest (not that it has been thus far, but it could), or it will be too much and then people will again be freaking out about how it's taking too much time and the judges will be overworked. Some of the suggestions here (like the private voting) are some good ones, but all the scheduling and rotating theme issues have been tried both here and elsewhere, and I don't think it's been shown to be a sustainable issue.
I think you guys have great suggestions, but my suggestion is to trust Brian with the decisions about it all. He will present the next contest as it should be, and then it will happen. All these suggestions, while perfectly fine in many respects, are setting us up for questions like 'why don't they do it like I want it done?' Essentially, I'm already seeing a tremendous diversity in opinion about what the 'contests' should be like, and it's been shown, quite obviously at this point, that you can't please everyone no matter how hard you try.
I think contests should happen as they happen, and they'll be like what they're like, and we shouldn't be worrying about it at this time right now.
Jacob
QuoteI think contests should happen as they happen, and they'll be like what they're like, and we shouldn't be worrying about it at this time right now.
This + pugdog = wisdom
Thanks Jacob. Thanks Brian. Thanks MB.
I'd like to apologize for my behavior in that contest thread... i'm a naturaly impulsive and hot-blooded guy.. but yeah... that spark totally ignited me and i'm very sorry about that, i think that i could have said what i was thinking but in a more sensible manner. The disturbance in the force was great at that moment... ...and it affected me profundly as i had never withnessed that since i'm a member here.
Communication and complexity of the contest where the main factor that have led to that situation, though.. it have now been thoroughly discussed and i have nothing to add about it, other than... let's keep things simple.
Anyway, i raise up the horns to Brian and Jacob for bringing this back on track, now that everything is as it was... it's time to enjoy this place as we always did.
Cheers!
Rej
Hey, you guys want to go get a beer and forget all this??
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nursing a rum 'n' coke as we speak!
Quote from: jimilee on February 21, 2015, 01:16:50 AM
Hey, you guys want to go get a coca-cola-classic-soda-pop-water-soft-drink-beverage and forget all this??
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
An emphatic YES.
My thoughts...
I dont have any. I smoke them away. ;D
Seriously... I don't know what went down, and I have no intention of going back through the threads to find out. I will say, though, that I haven't entered anything purely because the skills and capability of some greatly eclipses the ability of others (like myself). I don't know how you can even compare some of these apples to some of these oranges. I think you should have 2 or 3 categories and have the judges decidee which ones are the best, then have the winner decided by vote, like the "Idol" shows on tv. OR, have entries nominated by vote, then judged byba panel for the winner.
Basically, just copy a model that already works. Car shows, talent shows, art shows. Its all been done. We don't need to invent a new system for this.
This is what cabinets of homebrew are for.
Quote from: Vallhagen on February 20, 2015, 08:09:24 PM
Funny, i completely missed the drama. Had to read up a bit when i saw this thread.
I completely missed it too. (My apology still stands though.)
There's always ups and downs in any great organization, so it was bound to happen sooner or later. Coulda been worse! Things were still surprisingly civil here, which is a credit to all.
Quote from: jimilee on February 21, 2015, 01:16:50 AM
Hey, you guys want to go get a beer and forget all this??
Hell yeah. If any of you are ever in Pittsburgh, please send a note and beer is on me.
Quote from: jkokura on February 20, 2015, 01:30:40 AM
I'm hearing pretty continually here that people would have appreciated more communication.
I'm really sorry for letting the community down in such a manner. I tried my best, but I failed. I feel really awful about it, and for the conversation that ensued. I'm sorry, and I ask for your forgiveness.
Jacob
always remember. the last One that was perfect, was crucified.
Layton
I have had a few days to digest what has transpired and would like to post a reply. I am who I am and if it offends some then so be it but....
First of all... to Brian.... I would like to apologize to you about what has transpired. I know that this community would not be here if it were not for you. I truly believe in what it is you do here and that you have nothing but the best intentions in what it is that you do. That being said... I do not believe that you owe an apology in this situation. I would however, like to suggest that you increase the number of moderators for the overall forum. In the end, it will definitely ensure better communication and response to the forum members. Just a suggestion.
Second... It appears that the common "opinion" is that my not-so-frequent requests for updates on the latest contest was because "I didn't think things were going fast enough" or it was "not on MY time." I would like to address this. I work in and live in a world where people make promises, suggestions, or enter into a "deal" with others and when they do, they are expected to hold up their end of the bargain. Regardless of whether or not it is free, paid into, or just for fun. By creating deadlines, announcing projected results, etc. you are in essence entering into a sort of friendly contract that... as long as we do our work and due diligence and abide by the rules set forth that the other party will do the same. If someone were to submit an entry 2 days late I would expect that it would not be accepted. Likewise, failing to hold up the other end of the bargain should be held to the same standard. Following this is the only true way to ensure success and to ensure confidence in further exploits. I know that some of you may disagree with this however, I KNOW that some of you agree. Perhaps a good solution to this problem would be to not only have a minimum of 2 people in charge of running these "contests" but to also ensure a minimum of weekly updates on progress. I know that it is frowned upon to request what is going on but... it seems communication is the primary apology in this thread so.....
Third... I have been doing this for a LONG time. That's not to say that I deserve any kind of preference over other members. What it means is that I know how things go. I know that there are about a dozen or so members on this forum that generally have the overall say-so on what goes on. I also get the sense that if there is any input OTHER THAN those members that it is quickly dismissed or not taken at full face value. This, I believe, is a problem that will come back to bite. I know of at least 2 other members that have gone from full bore wanting to be a member of the community to just occasionally lurking because of this mentality... and these are people that would/could provide invaluable knowledge and experience here.
Finally... I did apologize to Brian about what has transpired. I would also like to apologize to the forum members in general for not being more tactful in the way I presented or represented my feeling or situation however, the apologies stop there. All else I have said I will stand by. I believe that most.... if not all... of the other addressed items were genuine and could be backed 100%. I initially went into this latest contest with the best intentions and wanting to help however, due to other actions unknown to most forum members I believe that it was not taken at face value. A shame maybe but, that is what it was. I will continue to do what I do in still being a member of this forum. I will help when I can, offer advice if I can, and support the continued aspirations of other forum members. I do not do this as a "business." I do this for the fun and for the satisfaction that maybe I can help others with that problem they are having and mentally picture the smile on their face when they rock their build for the first time! I will not be participating in any further competitions until other matters are resolved.
Thanks so much to Brian for stepping up and offer the olive branch when it was most definitely not required. You are a class act sir! And thank you to all the other forum members for constantly inspiring me in my builds and allowing me to help you with my limited knowledge.
Greg
I've desperately tried to stay out of this but honestly I think everyone else had had a go, so shall I.
Arguing on an internet forum is counter-productive and is impossible to 'win'. Quite frankly the written word does not convey emotion, intent, inflection or anything else for that matter. Some people are better at it than others and some people can come over abrasive. Both main protagonists have drifted into the latter category and have proceeded to wind each other up no end with neither really backing down. Both of you have now apologised with caveats once again stating your points.
Just let it lie.
It's done.
It's over.
Move on.
For the competitions. Personally I'd never run another if it's going to set of this sort of bullshit again.
For the paranoia regarding the secret society. Seriously!? It's a fucking internet forum not the illuminati.
This needs to all stop now.
Quote from: juansolo on February 22, 2015, 09:52:46 PM
I've desperately tried to stay out of this but honestly I think everyone else had had a go, so shall I.
Arguing on an internet forum is counter-productive and is impossible to 'win'. Quite frankly the written word does not convey emotion, intent, inflection or anything else for that matter. Some people are better at it than others and some people can come over abrasive. Both main protagonists have drifted into the latter category and have proceeded to wind each other up no end with neither really backing down. Both of you have now apologised with caveats once again stating your points.
Just let it lie.
It's done.
It's over.
Move on.
For the competitions. Personally I'd never run another if it's going to set of this sort of bullshit again.
For the paranoia regarding the secret society. Seriously!? It's a fucking internet forum not the illuminati.
This needs to all stop now.
... and I thought i loved juansolo only for the super clean builds, great advice and cool circuits (and bewbs ... sorry ... I couldn't help it)!
Been away snowboarding and come back and it looks like the shit has hit the fan :o
It's certainly honorable of Brian to apologize, but I don't really see any reason why he should.
I agree with Juan. Lets just leave the contests.
Any form of competition is naturally going to lead to someone feeling disappointed or hard done by.
CTRL+Z
Hello Brian, everyone.
I've just joined this community after buying a couple of boards and lurking around for a couple of days. Obviously what I've seen impressed me otherwise I wouldn't be here, & as my schedule is full & life is short I can only participate in so many "things" before I run out of "daylight" and it's time to crash (& burn). This is my first post (reply) here of any kind and I'm doing it because I was really surprised when I ran across this thread where the owner/operator is expressing an apology. After reading a while I knew I had to respond, I hope you have sufficient time in your day to read my response Brian, although I understand you probably don't but I have to try.
Lot's of opinions & ideas expressed here. That's to be expected.
For what it's worth, here is my opinion.
Brian; I've bought a couple, three, four boards from you. The quality of them is fantastic. Not just saying this. They really are very, very good. Having done something like that, with that kind of quality, tells me you are perhaps a perfectionist, or at least try to do your best in all things. There in lies my response to your apology. I'm pretty sure that like your boards, with this contest you must have done your best with whatever part you played or were involved in it. That is all you can do. All anyone, including yourself, can expect. Mistakes, if this indeed was one, happen. They just do. We humans cannot learn a damn thing unless we make a mistake. The best of us take our mistakes as a lesson. I'm sure you do too. I believe, for those of us that are human, that's the best use of a mistake. A lesson. The rest, unless we fail to heed the lesson, is just background noise. You've done fantastic work here with what you've created. Even though I've only been around a couple, three, four days, that's easy to see. What ever it was that happened with this contest that made you think you needed to apologize . . . well, you made your apology so now go on and do what you've been doing. It's good. You do good work. Keep doing it and don't worry about this anymore. Incorporate the lessons learned and keep on truckin. I'm sure that that is exactly what you would tell me if our roles were reversed and that is mostly what I wanted you to know. That you would tell me exactly the same thing. Oh, and don't forget what you've already accomplished here. It's very good.
Will