Yesterday I finally got all the parts I needed to test out Coda Effect's relay bypassing schematic. I programmed PIC12F675 to work with a soft touch switch and it worked great the first time around. I was wondering, is anyone else interested in implementing relay bypassing in their pedals but maybe doesn't know how to do the coding portion?
I'd love to either provide folks with the micro-controllers already burnt with the proper code OR even make an in depth tutorial (expanding on Coda's incredible info) on how to implement it. Let me know your thoughts guys.
http://www.coda-effects.com/2016/04/relay-bypass-conception-and-relay.html?showComment=1510840701063#c6018597602149103674 here's the first installment of the relay bypassing code that Coda posted.
I may be way off base here so someone can feel free to correct it but....
I think the reason that relay bypassing is not as popular is pricing. The PIC, Relay, and supporting parts are not all that cheap when compared to a sime 3PDT or Millenium setup. Although I believe relay bypass is superior... it is just not cost effective.
I'd be interesting in hearing your experiences getting set up for the Pic and how you go about programming it and everything. I'm pretty comfortable with the programming side of things, I'm just not used to setting up the hardware to start programming.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on November 16, 2017, 03:07:50 PM
I think the reason that relay bypassing is not as popular is pricing. The PIC, Relay, and supporting parts are not all that cheap when compared to a sime 3PDT or Millenium setup. Although I believe relay bypass is superior... it is just not cost effective.
This is a good observation. It's definitely more costly in time and money, I can't deny that.
Although, comparing a 3PDT (which is rated for ~30,000 cycles, maybe ~50,000 depending on quality) and a Soft Touch SPDT (which is rated for ~10 million cycles) there's an obvious winner when it comes to thinking about the life of builds. It's something i'd love to help the community think about and potentially use more and more.
Quote from: sonnyboy27 on November 16, 2017, 03:20:13 PM
I'd be interesting in hearing your experiences getting set up for the Pic and how you go about programming it and everything. I'm pretty comfortable with the programming side of things, I'm just not used to setting up the hardware to start programming.
The link I posted gives very detailed instructions on how to do this start to finish, but I will be working on a video with explanations on how every little part goes together. I believe it will be really beneficial in addition to the article.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on November 16, 2017, 03:07:50 PM
I may be way off base here so someone can feel free to correct it but....
I think the reason that relay bypassing is not as popular is pricing. The PIC, Relay, and supporting parts are not all that cheap when compared to a sime 3PDT or Millenium setup. Although I believe relay bypass is superior... it is just not cost effective.
I think that's more of a consideration in manufacturing than DIY. In commercial production it's easy to justify omitting features to meet a target bottom line to compete in the desired market. In DIY, people don't necessarily opt for the lowest cost possible because they want to personalize their builds to meet their own needs. So, another $5-8 might not be a big deal (of course that depends on the circuitry, what parts it requires, etc.)
But, really - what someone needs to do is design a tiny pre-fabricated surface mount board and produce them in large quantities to make it cheap. Then the builder just has to add wires and a switch.
Hmmmm.
Quote from: madbean on November 16, 2017, 03:50:29 PM
...people don't necessarily opt for the lowest cost possible because they want to personalize their builds to meet their own needs. So, another $5-8 might not be a big deal (of course that depends on the circuitry, what parts it requires, etc.)
I would tend to disagree with you on this one Brian. We all know that most, if not all builders tend to look for the best price on just about everything. It is exactly why we get monthly Tayda coupon reports ;D Where I would NOT agree with this is specifically those who build to sell. Those persons tend to look for better quality components.
Now, I am not saying that people don't personalize when they build. I am just saying that they will often go with the cheapest option to make their builds personal.
Don't get me wrong... I am definitely in favor of the idea presented in this thread. I was merely offering my opinion regarding price point with the venture.
Soft touch switches are one of the most requested features I get asked about. I just got the BLMS email today about their new premium 3PDT smooth switch. It looks really nice. Gold pin contacts, rated for a bazillion cycles etc. But it's $15. I will definitely buy one because I'm super curious about it but relay bypass is so much cheaper.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on November 16, 2017, 03:56:09 PM
Quote from: madbean on November 16, 2017, 03:50:29 PM
...people don't necessarily opt for the lowest cost possible because they want to personalize their builds to meet their own needs. So, another $5-8 might not be a big deal (of course that depends on the circuitry, what parts it requires, etc.)
I would tend to disagree with you on this one Brian. We all know that most, if not all builders tend to look for the best price on just about everything. It is exactly why we get monthly Tayda coupon reports ;D Where I would NOT agree with this is specifically those who build to sell. Those persons tend to look for better quality components.
Now, I am not saying that people don't personalize when they build. I am just saying that they will often go with the cheapest option to make their builds personal.
Don't get me wrong... I am definitely in favor of the idea presented in this thread. I was merely offering my opinion regarding price point with the venture.
Oh certainly. I could easily be wrong. I sometimes fail to take into account that I already have thousands of dollars invested in parts-on-hand so I don't personally consider end-cost on my own builds. But, I do think about it in the projects I release.
Anyway, I didn't mean to derail the discussion. Tuxedo, I think you should absolutely do the tutorial. I have an etchable layout for the CODA bypass in the Etcher's Paradise so if you want to incorporate that in any way please feel free. We could even post the end result on the Tutorials page (but only if that doesn't interfere with your personal plans for the guide).
Actually, I think that relay bypass is cost effective in terms of durability. However, I think that it will be really difficult to make it as cheap as a 3pdt, simply because a SPST soft switch is almost as expensive as a 3PDT!
In my version of the relay bypass, I cannot get below 8 euros for the full kit if I do not want to sell it "for free"
QuoteBut, really - what someone needs to do is design a tiny pre-fabricated surface mount board and produce them in large quantities to make it cheap.
I am currently working on it, I am not sure about how cheaper it would be though.
I'd be interested in a tutorial too. I have a couple builds in the pipeline that will use Finish Line boards/chips but it would be cool to be able to start doing my own. The cost is not a factor at all for me at the scale I'm building to. I just want the pedals to be sweet. I feel like I'm done with 3pdt switches on everything but personal builds.
I agree with Brian that when someone seizes the opportunity to have small boards fully prefabbed with pads for a switch and LED, they are going to sell the poop out of them.
Quote from: madbean on November 16, 2017, 03:50:29 PM
But, really - what someone needs to do is design a tiny pre-fabricated surface mount board and produce them in large quantities to make it cheap. Then the builder just has to add wires and a switch.
I've considered this exact thing. Making a board with a surface mount PIC and a 5-pin head to burn code to it, all with the relay, photoFET, and regulator already installed. It seems doable, not sure if it'd be cost effective.
Quote from: madbean on November 16, 2017, 04:02:37 PM
Anyway, I didn't mean to derail the discussion. Tuxedo, I think you should absolutely do the tutorial. I have an etchable layout for the CODA bypass in the Etcher's Paradise so if you want to incorporate that in any way please feel free. We could even post the end result on the Tutorials page (but only if that doesn't interfere with your personal plans for the guide).
That sounds great, I'll start working on it later today.
Again, I just want to be clear that Coda Effects really did a fantastic job on his post (that's all I used) and give him the credit for the idea. I'm lucky to have a decent amount of experience with coding and I realize not everyone has that luxury so I'd be making this tutorial for the layman.
He also has a small board for sale on his site that comes with the pre-burnt PIC and I believe the relay? Seems like it'd be easy to adapt to many different projects.
Quote from: madbean on November 16, 2017, 03:50:29 PM
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on November 16, 2017, 03:07:50 PM
I may be way off base here so someone can feel free to correct it but....
I think the reason that relay bypassing is not as popular is pricing. The PIC, Relay, and supporting parts are not all that cheap when compared to a sime 3PDT or Millenium setup. Although I believe relay bypass is superior... it is just not cost effective.
I think that's more of a consideration in manufacturing than DIY. In commercial production it's easy to justify omitting features to meet a target bottom line to compete in the desired market. In DIY, people don't necessarily opt for the lowest cost possible because they want to personalize their builds to meet their own needs. So, another $5-8 might not be a big deal (of course that depends on the circuitry, what parts it requires, etc.)
But, really - what someone needs to do is design a tiny pre-fabricated surface mount board and produce them in large quantities to make it cheap. Then the builder just has to add wires and a switch.
Hmmmm.
a cheap drop in relay board would be great
I've often used the relay switching systems from THcustoms to great satisfaction. For mono switching I'm set. What I would really like to have is a way to do stereo switching with a single circuit. And a way to do A/B switching between two different loops. THAT I would really like to have.
Quote from: Muadzin on November 16, 2017, 09:30:54 PM
I've often used the relay switching systems from THcustoms to great satisfaction. For mono switching I'm set. What I would really like to have is a way to do stereo switching with a single circuit. And a way to do A/B switching between two different loops. THAT I would really like to have.
Stereo true bypass would be the cat's whiskers.
I'm interested in more knowledge on the subject. I have been thinking about this ever since I made my VFE Pale Horse pedal. I love the relay switch, and I like the ability to do momentary also.
Brian, I am still hoping that the softie will still go to production and that will satiate my desires in relay switching.
Props to Coda effects for their work on this front for the DIY community.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on November 16, 2017, 03:56:09 PM
Quote from: madbean on November 16, 2017, 03:50:29 PM
...people don't necessarily opt for the lowest cost possible because they want to personalize their builds to meet their own needs. So, another $5-8 might not be a big deal (of course that depends on the circuitry, what parts it requires, etc.)
I would tend to disagree with you on this one Brian. We all know that most, if not all builders tend to look for the best price on just about everything. It is exactly why we get monthly Tayda coupon reports ;D Where I would NOT agree with this is specifically those who build to sell. Those persons tend to look for better quality components.
Now, I am not saying that people don't personalize when they build. I am just saying that they will often go with the cheapest option to make their builds personal.
Don't get me wrong... I am definitely in favor of the idea presented in this thread. I was merely offering my opinion regarding price point with the venture.
I think it depends on the person, really.
When I make anything, it takes my time to do it, which is worth something to me. I only buy cheaper parts when I feel they are low cost and still decent quality. Often, I can make something myself with better quality parts than a commercial build. I know there are others other there that have this mentality as well.
Of course, there are plenty of others out there that use the cheapest parts possible because they enjoy trying out all the different circuits and are less concerned with the reliability or overall quality as with the experimentation of things. That's cool too.
I've been trying to get to this same thing for ages but real life keeps getting in the way. I'm a big fan of the Coda because it's pretty cost effective and the VFE system is very cool as well although with pricier parts.
I really like having soft touch switching on my board because playing the stuff I do requires some changes over dead silence. Relay/optical bypassing is about as close as I've come. I agree with Brian though that if you could do a prefab board with surface mount to reduce the foot print to throw it in any size enclosure I think you'd be on to something.
I have extremely limited time but if I can be of any help just hit me up.
My first pedals used a CD4052 for switching. Then I switched to mictesters relay bypass for a while - I really like it and it is very quiet.
I decided to switch to an Attiny13A for the logic so I could
a)incorporate muting to get rid of the last bit of click when switching
b) add remote switching.
I want to have an 1/8 " stereo jack on each pedal. This would allow me to read the pedal's status and switch the pedal remotely. Rather than have an external looping box to have presets I would have an arduino nano based switch box turning various pedals on and off as required. I am inching towards having a "proof on concept" finished, but my three children are stealing all of my free time these days.
There are a couple of benefits to this plan.
1) The audio does not have to be routed through an external switching box
2) The user can turn pedals on or off normally with the regular pedal mounted footswitch, the switching box would be able to turn the pedal back on or off when a preset is pressed.
3) MIDI could be incorporated for say a Strymon pedal. (Though the initial setup might not be as simple as I would like)
4) The cables carrying the switch logic I plan to use are cheap and plentiful (eBay)
Andrew.