I'm curious as to everyone's take on whether you should include schematics with build documents. I can't say I don't always need one as in the past I've used them to find mistakes, both mine as the builder and the maker's(incorrect mask, missing links, pads that shouldn't be joined). The reason I ask is I recently picked up a pcb for a project from a maker that's generally ahead of the curve getting pcbs to market, even ahead of themselves as "build documents to follow" is pretty much their MO. I've had the pcb for a while, waited for their build doc, open it up and no schematic. It rubs me the wrong way.
Schematics are super important to me because I want to understand what I am building and learn from it. The whole reason I got into this hobby was because most of the pedals I bought were always missing something and just didn't feel like my voice. I'm really not interested in projects without schematics.
If it's the maker I am thinking, they are really responsive if you message them.
I won't buy something that doesn't have a schematic and I'm disinclined to help troubleshoot something without one. If someone's selling to the DIY market, they need to include it.
honestly, I think that's the direction I'll be heading in the future. I got the cart ahead of the horse as much as the seller on this one and I can own that. I haven't placed a parts order for it or ran into any build trouble yet but I very well could have in the amount of time I've had the pcb vs when I got the build doc let alone the schematic.
Not interested in anything without schematics. Trying to troubleshoot something without them is a royal PITA. I build kit nixie clocks but the kit maker won't release the schematics. One time I had to send a build back to him, another he had me replace a couple of transistors. When I quizzed him as to why they might have failed he was super evasive. It's really unsatisfying painting by numbers and having no idea how something works (or doesn't as the case may be). That's kinda what I'm in this for...
Quote from: juansolo on June 22, 2018, 09:54:12 PM
Not interested in anything without schematics. Trying to troubleshoot something without them is a royal PITA.
That!
Thankfully most PCB sellers I've used include schematics, so no issues there. But I'd wish that Tagboard would include a schematic, or a link to the schematic used with every vero layout. The number of times I had to look for schematics and then decide which one to pick was time that could have been better spent if it had been included from the start.
Quote from: thesmokingman on June 22, 2018, 04:14:46 PM
I'm curious as to everyone's take on whether you should include schematics with build documents. I can't say I don't always need one as in the past I've used them to find mistakes, both mine as the builder and the maker's(incorrect mask, missing links, pads that shouldn't be joined). The reason I ask is I recently picked up a pcb for a project from a maker that's generally ahead of the curve getting pcbs to market, even ahead of themselves as "build documents to follow" is pretty much their MO. I've had the pcb for a while, waited for their build doc, open it up and no schematic. It rubs me the wrong way.
Yes, I had some discussion with the seller (i'm sure you are referring too) as well and also made my point that scheamyics are important and build docs should be up asap best when stuff gets released.
I think schematics are absolutely important for learning, trouble shooting, modding and double checking.
I include schematics with all the projects I offer. There's a few up for preorder right now without a schematic but they'll be up as soon as the boards are officially released and before I send them out to the customer (and the general schematics can be guessed from the description).
Schematics are essential for troubleshooting, as Juan stated. And also: essential for making the effects your own by being able to mod it, which in part is what DIY is all about.
Pretty sure I know who you're talking about and I have to say: the output is insane and pretty stiffling if you view it as competition. No way to keep up with that.
+1 on Tagboard
Quote from: Muadzin on June 22, 2018, 10:26:13 PM
But I'd wish that Tagboard would include a schematic, or a link to the schematic used with every vero layout.
Yeah, I really don't understand that at all. I would think a schematic would be more important with a non-PCB build.
See, I knew one day I would find some topic on which to agree with you. ;D
I'm with Ralfg on this one. Said seller is very approachable and I think the majority of the build docs have schematics, no?
That said, building without is paint by numbers.
It seems like some people worry that their schematic will quickly get copied by another small builder or flooded by a vendor of cheap imported copies. I get that worry, but realistically anyone who has an unpopulated board could trace a schematic. Tracing is a PITA; it's worth it if you're going to make lots of copies, but not if you're building and debugging a single pedal. So withholding the schematic hurts the one-off builders (your good customers) but not any unscrupulous copiers. It's backwards.
Not having a schematic because you're behind on the build docs is different, I guess, but is kind of like software industry ship-before-ready. For ex, I appreciate that Madbean always writes great build docs. If it means he has to delay releasing projects sometimes, I can wait.
If we're talking about who I think we're talking about, I hear he's an extremely handsome guy.
Like, really really ridiculously good looking.
Okay on a serious note... ;D
I'm admittedly way behind on build docs but finally starting to make some progress. Another week or so and they should be caught up. At any point you can shoot me a message and I'll send over any info you need, you aren't bugging me so feel free any time.
I had to rush out a few docs, folks needed drill templates and parts lists but the schematics weren't quite "ready for prime time" so they were omitted until I have a chance to clean them up.
Quote from: culturejam on June 23, 2018, 12:39:21 AM
Quote from: Muadzin on June 22, 2018, 10:26:13 PM
But I'd wish that Tagboard would include a schematic, or a link to the schematic used with every vero layout.
Yeah, I really don't understand that at all. I would think a schematic would be more important with a non-PCB build.
See, I knew one day I would find some topic on which to agree with you. ;D
I stopped building tagboard layouts for that very reason. Or if I was desperate I'd draw the schematic out from the illustration but that can turn into a mess.
I gotta have schematics or I won't even start a build beyond a Fuzz Face.
Schematics are essential. That's how we learn. I read build docs for projects I know I'll never have even the tiniest interest in building just to see the schematic. Without them, it's just paint-by-numbers, and I'd be learning nothing.
I like to at least have build docs. Bugg.... Help me out!
Quote from: culturejam on June 23, 2018, 12:39:21 AM
Quote from: Muadzin on June 22, 2018, 10:26:13 PM
But I'd wish that Tagboard would include a schematic, or a link to the schematic used with every vero layout.
Yeah, I really don't understand that at all. I would think a schematic would be more important with a non-PCB build.
See, I knew one day I would find some topic on which to agree with you. ;D
Yeah but....., yeah but......, I agree with you all the time. :o :'( ;)
Quote from: EBRAddict on June 23, 2018, 01:59:21 AM
I stopped building tagboard layouts for that very reason. Or if I was desperate I'd draw the schematic out from the illustration but that can turn into a mess.
I gotta have schematics or I won't even start a build beyond a Fuzz Face.
Well, I usually google for a schematic. Unless its something really boutique you can usually find one. But it should be included as a standard. Other then that I love tagboard veros. Anything that looks like it can fit on something not bigger then 20 by 20 holes I'm not going to bother with ordering a pcb for. Also, when I do have a schematic vero is so much easer to trace the signalpath with.
A schematic is an absolute requirement for reasons everyone has mentioned above - education, sharing of information, etc. - but also because you have to have some way of verifying accuracy. Many circuits have inaccurate schematics (early versions of FSB traces and that sort of thing) and I can't necessarily trust that the PCB designer is using the right one if they don't show their work.
This also why I don't like Tagboard. (Though I will say the comment section is always great for troubleshooting & modifications - practical discussions by people working through the circuit.)
A pedal project without a schematic, haha, im bending my mind to even grasp that concept. It would be like building a pedal without a soldering iron!? :)
Yep, essential. These projects are aimed at diyer's and electronics enthusiasts you have to include the schematic imo...
OK - since I've supported Tagboard Effects over many years (in fact, that site is what got me into DIY pedal building in the first place), let me say that you can't just post a schematic unless the original author permits that. Most often, they will post a link to FSB or some other source where the schematic is provided. One reason they do this, besides the obvious permissions issue, is that often the circuit is modded before the final layout is considered "verified". Once it is verified, I suppose someone could offer to generate schematics for the purpose of documentation of the vero layouts - any takers?? :D
BTW - I've posted a few original circuits there, and when I do I include a schematic (although it may be from LTSpice rather than a pro schematic rendering app). Which reminds me of a question - what software are people using for schematics these days?