Hello! My first VFE build almost done!
I just finished my pedal last night and test drove it. Turned on first stomp and it is the quietest and smoothest compressor I've ever used. It sounds amazing. However! There is no swell effect. I can't seem to get it to trigger and I've tried the tuning method suggested in the build doc.
I found this thread with a similar issue but I cannot determine that the OPs issue was ever resolved. https://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=31323.15
I also noticed he's using an OP2134 instead of the OP134 in the build docs. Is that intentional? Or is the build doc a typo? I installed a OP134 in mine.
I also didn't have the .68uf cap so I used a 1uf cap.
Any thoughts or suggestions on what to try next would be appreciated, especially if you sorted it.
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on February 12, 2022, 12:13:44 PM
I found this thread with a similar issue but I cannot determine that the OPs issue was ever resolved. https://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=31323.15
Jimi's issue was that his 5457 jfet was not in spec.
He is using a 2134 not a 134. A 134 will not work
Quote from: Aentons on February 12, 2022, 03:15:17 PM
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on February 12, 2022, 12:13:44 PM
I found this thread with a similar issue but I cannot determine that the OPs issue was ever resolved. https://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=31323.15
Jimi's issue was that his 5457 jfet was not is spec.
He is using a 2134 not a 134. A 134 will not work
Yes, the trimmer will only help with fine adjustments. You'll need a JFET as discussed in the build doc and the linked thread. Where were you seeing reference to an OP134?
BF245B has Ugs very similar to 5457.
Quote from: benny_profane on February 12, 2022, 03:55:22 PM
Quote from: Aentons on February 12, 2022, 03:15:17 PM
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on February 12, 2022, 12:13:44 PM
I found this thread with a similar issue but I cannot determine that the OPs issue was ever resolved. https://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=31323.15
Jimi's issue was that his 5457 jfet was not is spec.
He is using a 2134 not a 134. A 134 will not work
Yes, the trimmer will only help with fine adjustments. You'll need a JFET as discussed in the build doc and the linked thread. Where were you seeing reference to an OP134?
The BOM indicates OPA134. I figured it was a typo until I actually found one on Mouser's site. So, I bought it. But I actually installed an OPA2134PGA.
Do you think the 1uf cap in place of the .68uf cap matters?
So I definitely need a 5457 that has voltage between 1.25 - 1.5? Any idea where I can buy a bunch? I just bought a transistor measuring tool.
According to the pdf linked in the Store, the BOM lists OPA2134a and has links to both Mouser and smallbear for the chip. However, it's possible I made a typo when I first released the doc, then corrected and re-uploaded but forgot to mention in the Errata section (that would have been a couple ago so I honestly don't remember).
https://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/_folders/VFE/pdf/VFE_Bumblebee.pdf
Willing to try mmbf5457? It will probably be within spec. You can get SMD adapters at effects layouts or just get one all soldered up and ready for leads at lectric-fx if you don't like soldering SMD parts. Looks like Mouser, Digi-Key, and Tayda are out of mmbf5457, so lectric-fx may be your only option right now.
Totally! I bought some but unsure if I mounted it correctly. It's not doing anything for the swell even using the tuning walk through. The volume is also REALLY low even with the level cranked. I have to dime out that guitar to make it sound good. Here's a picture of how I constructed the SMD onto a chip.
Okie dokie still no gas. I bought some SMDs from AionFX which were guaranteed to be in the right range but no swell effect. The compressor sounds fantastic. I did some board measurements and found some odd ones. I'm not certain how to interpret these so I'm looking to you smart dudes to lend a hand and maybe point me in the right direction.
Flip the orientation of the JFET. It looks backward. Also, Aion does not 'guarantee' specs—the copy says that 'nearly all of them are within the Vgs(off) range of -1.0V to -1.5V (average: 1.21V).' Did you test the particular device to ensure it's in the range?
Fair enough on the guarantee. I misquoted it without malintention. I did not test it as I'm not 100% certain how to do so.
Which JFET? The 2N5457 (as SMD)?
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on March 27, 2022, 07:19:35 PM
Fair enough on the guarantee. I misquoted it without malintention. I did not test it as I'm not 100% certain how to do so.
Which JFET? The 2N5457 (as SMD)?
No worries, just didn't want you to think that it would 100% work since this circuit is picky. Search for RG Keen's methods of testing. And yes, the 2n5457 on the breakout board looks like it should be rotated 180°.
I rotated it and while the pedal does sound better I still have absolutely no swell. I'll look for the method and see what I can figure out! I have about 15 more SMDs I can try and will report back.
My voltages look off don't they?
I got some vero board to build a JFET tester. Does anyone have a good wiring diagram for how to build one? Or pictures of one you've built?
This is what I bought. Do you think it will work?
ElectroCookie Mini PCB Prototype Board Solderable Breadboard for DIY Electronics, Compatible for Mini Arduino Soldering Projects, Gold-Plated (6 Pack, Multicolor) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B081MSKJJX/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_E8YXM5XP0A9HBF1E2S25?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on March 29, 2022, 01:38:07 AM
I got some vero board to build a JFET tester. Does anyone have a good wiring diagram for how to build one? Or pictures of one you've built?
This is what I bought. Do you think it will work?
ElectroCookie Mini PCB Prototype Board Solderable Breadboard for DIY Electronics, Compatible for Mini Arduino Soldering Projects, Gold-Plated (6 Pack, Multicolor) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B081MSKJJX/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_E8YXM5XP0A9HBF1E2S25?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
Tagboard has some great jfet tester layouts.
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Stupid question but basically I just drop the components in, add in the jumper wires and solder stuff together on the front and back of the board and it'll work? :)
I'm looking at using the first image. What are the little red squares indicating? My breakout board has A-J and 1-17 matrix [5x17, 5x17]. On the back each column [a-e and f-j] of 5 is connected together [a~b~c~d~e] break [f~g~h~I~j].
So for example, DMM- and ground (assuming this is black terminal from 9v) are connect at the 10k resistor via a jump? And that resistor is connect via a jumper to 4u7 cap, which is connected to the 10k behind it via a jump and then to the IC? A real life picture of how one of these is wired up would be helpful but there are scant resources online surprisingly.
https://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2012/07/jfet-matcher.html
Yessir, that's how it's supposed to work.
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on March 29, 2022, 09:02:46 PM
Stupid question but basically I just drop the components in, add in the jumper wires and solder stuff together on the front and back of the board and it'll work? :)
I'm looking at using the first image. What are the little red squares indicating? My breakout board has A-J and 1-17 matrix [5x17, 5x17]. On the back each column [a-e and f-j] of 5 is connected together [a~b~c~d~e] break [f~g~h~I~j].
So for example, DMM- and ground (assuming this is black terminal from 9v) are connect at the 10k resistor via a jump? And that resistor is connect via a jumper to 4u7 cap, which is connected to the 10k behind it via a jump and then to the IC? A real life picture of how one of these is wired up would be helpful but there are scant resources online surprisingly.
https://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2012/07/jfet-matcher.html
What you have is a solderable breadboard, not veroboard. With veroboard, the rows are a long copper trace that you have to cut if you want to separate components. The red boxes in the diagram are the cuts you would need to make. Your breadboard rows are not connected like that, and not even like a regular breadboard. You can build on what you have, but you will just need to translate the copper traces into wires.
Thanks all! I'll build something and post a photo to see if I'm on the right direction.
Z
Okie dokie! I put together a board. No idea if it works. What I do know is that there is continuity between every single point on the board. I'm thinking that is because a lot of the copper trace intersects with different components. Do I need to cut all of the copper traces and just let the circuit be "point to point" through the components?
https://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2012/07/jfet-matcher.html
One last photo
Uhh.. sorry, if there was a misunderstanding. No that's not going to work :(
You need a breadboard layout for the boards you have.
There are some pics in this thread of the breadboard that I used a couple years ago.
https://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=32212.msg309578#msg309578
I think I used the schematic in the MB Nom Nom build doc
https://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/_folders/FilterMod/pdf/NomNom2020.pdf
Edit: I used jkokuras schematic from the pdf he posted in that thread
Also note that you are using a TL072 and the vero and others are laid out for a TL071. They have different pinouts. However, the 72 is like having two 71s in the same chip so you can use the 72 if that's all you have, but you will have to do the translation on the pinouts.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ce/a9/15/cea915fca06131cc43056f5460d9e262.gif)
I ordered a breadboard with Va, Vb, Vc inputs. I guess for now I'll build one on the breadboard. Is Vero board what I'd build if I wanted something more "permanent" but shy of creating an actual PCB?
I only have the TL072. I'm a little confused on v+ and v- and how they both have +/- in and out. v+ = positive? v- = negative? I assume that + and - from the battery? My knowledge is growing in this area but I'm still admittedly ignorant.
I'm the diagram, the red squares are cuts.
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I'm sorry, I gave you a bad diagram. The tl072 pins are labeled incorrectly in that previous pic. Here is a better one. Yes, The V stands for Voltage. V+ and Vcc+ are both labels for positive power. GND and V- are negative power.
Opamps have both a + (non inverting) and - (inverting) input, and a single output. To do amplification, the inputs are designed to balance each other like Jedi and Sith. :)
(https://www.componentsinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/tl072-pinout-equivalent.gif)
I think I have an OPA134, which according to Google is an alternative to TL701? Same pin out?
Crud. Turns out I put that OPA134 into my VFE miniMu.
So, could someone help me understand how I would use one of the THOUSAND TL072's I have? :) I understand it's a dual opamp vs the TL071, which is a single opamp. Does that mean I only need to connect one side of the IC to my circuit? Does it matter which side?
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on March 31, 2022, 08:32:44 PM
Crud. Turns out I put that OPA134 into my VFE miniMu.
So, could someone help me understand how I would use one of the THOUSAND TL072's I have? :) I understand it's a dual opamp vs the TL071, which is a single opamp. Does that mean I only need to connect one side of the IC to my circuit? Does it matter which side?
Nope, the pinout is different, it won't work. Look up the pinout of both, you can see what I'm talking about. If you put you ICs in sockets, grab one out just for troubleshooting purposes.
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Okay! I made the tool to measure my 5457 and most of them were just fine. See the attachment. This leads me to believe something else is wrong. So, I checked my solders again and then took some measurements.
I have highlighted a few areas where I am getting odd measurements. Any ideas? The compression seems to be working fine on the pedal. Just no swell whatsoever. Also, the level is REALLY weak. I either have to dime the guitar out or use drive pedals to get any appreciable volume gain. Even with level all the way up.
I've tried Brian's method to tune the pedal and I'm not getting anything like in the YouTube videos.
I would make sure you dont have a short or solder bridge around the 3904 in the lower right
The build doc is wrong there. The emitter voltage should not be 0V. The 5v seems about right.
https://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=30283.msg292336#msg292336
Any chance the 5088s are dead or maybe a short there too? It just seems to me odd that the pedal works pretty much fine except the swell effect.
Is your vactrol installed correctly? Ensure that it doesn't need to be rotated 180°. Do you know how to read a schematic and follow the board traces? You're getting odd voltages in the bottom left part of the schematic. What voltages do you get on either side of the 1k R4 resistor?
I'm basically get 0 volts on R1 (1k) and R4 (15k). It's like 0.0045. I'm not getting any voltages on the vactrols either. Here are some photos up close of the area. From what I can tell R1/R4 are connected together so the solder is connected together on the back. I tried to circle some areas where I thought there may be an issue? But I'm not sure. It seems clear that there is very little if any voltage getting to those 5088s.
Quote from: benny_profane on April 08, 2022, 10:49:29 PM
Is your vactrol installed correctly? Ensure that it doesn't need to be rotated 180°.
Sounds like this is your issue. There is usually a paint dot on the nsl32 next to pin1. The screenshot shows pin 1 on the board
So I installed the vactrol backwards?
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on April 09, 2022, 04:22:39 PM
So I installed the vactrol backwards?
Most likely. Your reported voltages are confusing since the cited reference numbers and the values don't line up (i.e., R1 is 470k and the feedback resistor for IC1A, not 1k; R4 is 1k, not 15k, and in series with R14, 15k). Trying to parse through what you posted doesn't add up though. Vcc connects to the anode of the vactrol LED. It would make sense that it is reversed biased given the collector voltages on Q1 and Q3. You can remove the vactrol and confirm the polarity by using the diode setting on a multimeter.
The vactrol was definitely in backwards. I turned it around and bow in getting the correct readings in those 2n5088s!
Unfortunately, still no discernible swell effect. I've tried Brian's method for tuning it but I'm not getting anything. Any ideas or tips for running it troubleshooting?
Any ideas at all? I'm kind of at a loss. I have tried 4558s, TL072 and NE5532/P. I have verified in range 2n5952's I just don't know what to say. The pedal seems to work/compression too but no swell. I've tried tuning/tweaking -- barely anything at all.
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on April 15, 2022, 06:45:04 PM
Any ideas at all? I'm kind of at a loss. I have tried 4558s, TL072 and NE5532/P. I have verified in range 2n5952's I just don't know what to say. The pedal seems to work/compression too but no swell. I've tried tuning/tweaking -- barely anything at all.
Did you remember the Pinout on a 5952 is the reverse of a 5457? Trace down the power section to see why you're not getting power to the transistors on the left side of the board.
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Whoops sorry the I did mean that I am using 5457. And it's measuring 1.5 vgs. Opto is installed correctly now. I am getting the correct voltages at the 5088s and the ICs.
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on April 15, 2022, 08:25:21 PM
Whoops sorry the I did mean that I am using 5457. And it's measuring 1.5 vgs. Opto is installed correctly now. I am getting the correct voltages at the 5088s and the ICs.
So all of your voltages are correct now?
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Yep all of my voltages are good! Are my Mix and Trigger pots wired in okay? I had some issues with that at the beginning.
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on April 15, 2022, 08:44:21 PM
Yep all of my voltages are good! Are my Mix and Trigger pots wired in okay? I had some issues with that at the beginning.
The pot on the bottom left is wired backwards. Are you getting any compression at all? It will only swell in one setting.
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Yeah compression seems to work. The pedal actually sounds great just no swell at all, I'd at least as far as I can tell. Nothing like the demo vids on YouTube.
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on April 16, 2022, 12:57:02 AM
Yeah compression seems to work. The pedal actually sounds great just no swell at all, I'd at least as far as I can tell. Nothing like the demo vids on YouTube.
Have you tried any other 5457s? This is the only other thing that controls the swell. 1.47 is the top of the range, have anything lower?
Turns out I'm a fool. I measured all of my 2n5457 incorrectly. They are all less than 1.2vgs. Assuming I am measuring them correctly now anyway — depending on how I put them in I either get -1.3v or 1.2v. Since none of them work I'm going to assume it doesn't really matter what measurement I got.
I just cannot catch a break with this pedal. I designed my artwork wrong too. My board is too far up on the 9v and jacks. So there goes a $20 Gorva out the door.
Does anyone have a few good 2n5457 that work with this pedal I could buy?
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on April 16, 2022, 03:56:11 AM
Turns out I'm a fool. I measured all of my 2n5457 incorrectly. They are all less than 1.2vgs. Assuming I am measuring them correctly now anyway — depending on how I put them in I either get -1.3v or 1.2v. Since none of them work I'm going to assume it doesn't really matter what measurement I got.
I just cannot catch a break with this pedal. I designed my artwork wrong too. My board is too far up on the 9v and jacks. So there goes a $20 Gorva out the door.
Does anyone have a few good 2n5457 that work with this pedal I could buy?
While troubleshooting mine, I trashed my board and had some made. You're still doing good.
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Sending some updated photos in case it helps with troubleshooting. As far as I can tell the compression is working. It's VERY subtle even on full sustain. The level knob seems to do absolutely nothing. All up or all down, no change in output. If I stack the Bumblebee with my AionFX Convex parallel optical compressor I get a TON of tasty squish. And that squish sounds different than if I just have the Convex on. So I can only assume the Bumblee compressor is working. Is there a less subjective way to verify that?
It seems like maybe my problem here is that I just don't have a 2n5457 that is in spec to work. They seem to be dang impossible to find. I've bought 30 surface mounts and all of them are junk. Less than 1.2v or way over 2. Now that I'm looking at the AionFX site where I bought a bunch of these maybe they are fine? I was getting values of -1.3v on a lot of them. That seems like it's right in the 1.25-1.5 range for these.
I'm just really at a loss for what to do now on this pedal.
https://aionfx.com/project/2n5457-jfet/
https://aionfx.com/project/convex-parallel-compressor/
Can you repost your updated voltages please? Also, include voltages for each leg of the optocoupler. If it's working correctly, you should be able to hear the compression.
Sorry you are having trouble with this, it can be a tough one.
(https://prodimage.images-bn.com/pimages/9781452126883_p0_v1_s550x406.jpg)
I'll repost voltages next -- here are the SMD 2n5457's I measured. I lined up the source, gate, drain with the diagram. Depending on how I orient the chip in the sockets I get different readings.
With S = S, D = D, G = G I get .9v. When I flip it around I get -1.3v. Could someone tell me which way works? When I do the normal through-hole 2N5457 with S=S, D=D, G=G then it gives me 1.1 or 1.2v consistently depending on the component. So that seems fine. If I flip them, as a test like above, I get -1.3v.
stand by for new voltages!
Voltages all look normal to me. At least, based on the reference values. The 5088's were all 7.10-7.12v just on the one leg of each component. The other values were very close to 0. The image makes it look like they were *all* 7.xx. But that's a drawing error :)
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on April 16, 2022, 03:19:54 PM
Voltages all look normal to me. At least, based on the reference values. The 5088's were all 7.10-7.12v just on the one leg of each component. The other values were very close to 0. The image makes it look like they were *all* 7.xx. But that's a drawing error :)
Yep, those look ok. If your Level control is not working, it's possible your signal isn't making it to the board. Can you post switch board voltages?
What measurements on switch board and where? I'm getting signal through the pedal to amp.
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on April 16, 2022, 04:56:24 PM
What measurements on switch board and where? I'm getting signal through the pedal to amp.
I think the switch board build doc has the voltages to measure in it. It could be letting the bypass signal thru and not switching to the audio board
Just re-read the switching board doc and not many reference voltages laid out except just a few here and there by mention of split power rail/relay voltages. I'll check what I can check when I get home based on that data.
If anyone has some other reference voltages to check I'll do those too!
https://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/_folders/VFE/pdf/VFE_SBv3.pdf
You will also want to use an audio probe on the input and output wires to the audio board while switching between bypass to see if the switch board is actually sending and receiving anything from the audio board
I used my audio probe and as far as I can tell the audio is getting from the switching board to the main board. I could pick up audio coming off the relay chip on the board. Nice and loud and also at the input and output jack wires in bypass and effect mode.
However, once I get on the actual board the audio drops significantly. And I can only get it on the compression side. No audio at all near on the swell circuit from what I can tell.
Okay here is a full voltage chart for the switching board. The relay chip seems a little odd (all 0's unless indicated) as well as some of the resistors around it. But maybe I don't know squat. The pedal was switched to power on.
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on April 17, 2022, 02:02:25 PM
Okay here is a full voltage chart for the switching board. The relay chip seems a little odd (all 0's unless indicated) as well as some of the resistors around it. But maybe I don't know squat. The pedal was switched to power on.
Your relay is in upside down. The line on top of the relay should match the build doc
Quote from: Aentons on April 17, 2022, 03:10:47 PM
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on April 17, 2022, 02:02:25 PM
Okay here is a full voltage chart for the switching board. The relay chip seems a little odd (all 0's unless indicated) as well as some of the resistors around it. But maybe I don't know squat. The pedal was switched to power on.
Your relay is in upside down. The line on top of the relay should match the build doc
Daaaaammnn good catch. We all missed that one.
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Happy Easter! I predict that the electrons will raise from the grave when I get home from the in-laws later today.
If the relay is upside down then how is any of the signal making it to the board? It's just flowing backwards through the same input and output pins? Somehow inverting the signal or acting as a massive resistor cutting the flow?
I'm still learning to read schematics and understanding what each circuit does. So forgive my ignorance please!
That did it baby!!!! Now we're cooking with sauce!
Swell is working, though not tuned yet and the level works. This thing gets looooud! So excited!!!
Awesomeness
YES!
Quote from: zachlovescoffee on April 18, 2022, 01:46:23 AM
That did it baby!!!! Now we're cooking with sauce!
Swell is working, though not tuned yet and the level works. This thing gets looooud! So excited!!!
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/3o7buiQeyYFamzRoR2/giphy.gif)
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Pretty much got the swell dialed in - could be a little closer to perfection but it's def playable. I just have to get it boxed up now! I've re-thought my art concept. I'm going to go with one of those jade/emerald green Gorva boxes and call it the 'Jade Roller'. Kind of a tongue in cheek for those things that chicks use to smooth out their faces.