Since Brian released the parts list (here (http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2954.0;attach=2415)) I figured I should go ahead and get this started.
What are you guys doing on the following caps and resistors for the Dirt Bag?
Resistors
13k
16k
24.3k
33.2k
Caps
1uF
1.2n
2.2uF
2.7n
3.9n
10uF
27pF
240pF
On the uFs I'm finding them but there all in 50+ volts.
Also, on the ICs, I've found a TL062CN, TL072CP, V3205SD, and a CD4047BE all at Mammoth. Those are fine, right?
And lastly....does anyone have a link for the mystical MN3005?
Resistors
13k - I'll probably use 12k
16k - I'll probably use 15k
24.3k - Closest Standard Value
etc.
Really wont make any difference, use what's easy to get.
Caps
1uF, 2.2uF, 10uF are all standard values, should be able to get them in voltages from 16V up, fine for the 3205 version. 3005 you may want 25V rated caps (although really anywhere post the Voltage regulator should be fine with 16V, no harm in being cautious though with higher ratings).
The other values, whatever closest standard values I can find, caps are gunna be atleast +/-10% so even if I buy the ones specified they wont be that exact value.
ICs, yes those will be fine in the circuit.
3005s, No, it's just not worth buying them even if they can be found, it's purely mojo that the audience will never notice the difference in and you'll likely just get ripped off with fake chips that either don't work or provide half the delay time, if you must use them, I suggest you buy some of Smallbears Fake 3005s ($14.95 a pair I think?) which are actually relabelled 3008s and use 4 of them with doubling boards.
Any 3005s left in existance should really be saved for repairs of original effects pedals, not used in new pedals, the new chips are just as good and wont set you back nearly as much money.
The only thing the 3005 has over the 3205 is a higher headroom so it wont clip as soon, but as this is analog delay i'd just forget it, you'll get more variation due to the overall parts than two single ICs.
Quote from: Scruffie on November 01, 2011, 06:19:48 PM
Caps
1uF, 2.2uF, 10uF are all standard values, should be able to get them in voltages from 16V up, fine for the 3205 version. 3005 you may want 25V rated caps (although really anywhere post the Voltage regulator should be fine with 16V, no harm in being cautious though with higher ratings).
At Mammoth I can only find them in 50V. I was affraid they would be too big.
What country are you located in? There are far cheaper places to get your caps!
Josh
I'm in the U.S.
Same cap....mammoth doesn't give specs but the cap is 5mm diam x 11mm length
http://www.mammothelectronics.com/Nichicon-50-Volt-Electrolytic-Capacitors-p/301-a-50v.htm
$0.45
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/UKW1H010MDD/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtZ1n0r9vR22e0BBN1kF1oiF6LRZJxQnLs%3d
$0.09
Non audio grade, but ok
http://www.taydaelectronics.com/servlet/the-1730/1UF-50V-105C-CAPACITOR/Detail
$0.02
These are just examples. Mammoth is ok but there are better deals on caps and such.
Josh
I vote Tayda. Good prices good service
You do need to be careful with Tayda though...
Unless you have something to measure capacitance I would recommend another supplier. For something as complex as the dirtbag you want to make sure your parts are close to spec. Some of what I've gotten from Tayda is not. I use Tayda and it's good and cheap but you need to be aware that some of the stuff utilizes every bit of the Tolerance :)
Josh
Quote from: gtr2 on November 02, 2011, 03:00:46 PM
You do need to be careful with Tayda though...
Unless you have something to measure capacitance I would recommend another supplier. For something as complex as the dirtbag you want to make sure your parts are close to spec. Some of what I've gotten from Tayda is not. I use Tayda and it's good and cheap but you need to be aware that some of the stuff utilizes every bit of the Tolerance :)
Josh
This is a good bit of advice, not only for Tayda, but for every supplier. I've gotten into the habit of measuring everything just to make sure I grabbed the right part, and marking up my schematic/layout paper so I know I tested that part. Takes minimal extra time while your building, but can save you time in the end if you need to go back and check values. Plus, you will come across bad components every now and then, regardless of the supplier.
Quote from: gtr2 on November 02, 2011, 03:00:46 PM
For something as complex as the dirtbag you want to make sure your parts are close to spec.
Why? I doubt EHX ever did, the original used early ceramic & mylar caps and still even had some carbon comp resistors in the odd one, hardly tight spec components.
Tollerances don't add up through a circuit.
The only place spec is important is listed on the factory schematic, the 240pF Clock cap should be 5% the 2 x 4.7uF Electros in the LFO should be 10% and a handfull of resistors and caps in the audio path.
And even with those specs... I bet they didn't actually keep to most of them.
Being a noobish person I only have a Multimeter.
What is a good, reasonably priced next instrument?
Like to measure capacitance and perhaps some other values we might run across.
I only can recommend what I have used, and while I was in Hong Kong for work, I stopped by a big electronics store and stocked up ($0.30 Alpha pots FTW!).
While there I bought this (http://www.uni-trend.com/UT603.html) for a decent price ~$30 (and I love it. It measures Capacitance, Resistance, and Inductance. It's got a diode/continuity buzzer, and tests transistors. The only thing that is doesn't do that I wish it did is measure Voltage, but I have my original, cheap RadioShack meter that does that, so it really isn't a big deal.
I've seen the UT603 online in the USA anywhere from $25-$41. But that is just what I have, there may be something out there that is WAY better.
Ian
I've been wanting to get one of these (http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9485). I once talked to a fellow diy'er (I think it was Chris) who gave it 2 thumbs up.
Quote from: Scruffie on November 02, 2011, 03:53:10 PM
Quote from: gtr2 on November 02, 2011, 03:00:46 PM
For something as complex as the dirtbag you want to make sure your parts are close to spec.
Why? I doubt EHX ever did, the original used early ceramic & mylar caps and still even had some carbon comp resistors in the odd one, hardly tight spec components.
Tollerances don't add up through a circuit.
The only place spec is important is listed on the factory schematic, the 240pF Clock cap should be 5% the 2 x 4.7uF Electros in the LFO should be 10% and a handfull of resistors and caps in the audio path.
And even with those specs... I bet they didn't actually keep to most of them.
Well then...I guess I have better quality control than EHX ;D
Quote from: Haberdasher on November 02, 2011, 05:57:40 PM
I've been wanting to get one of these (http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9485). I once talked to a fellow diy'er (I think it was Chris) who gave it 2 thumbs up.
I use one of these too. Easy build and it works well, it would be better if it was easier to stick in some sort of enclosure. It's saved me a few times from wrongly marked caps. The caps were labeled on the bag wrong and you couldn't read the microprint well
Quote from: gtr2 on November 02, 2011, 07:49:12 PM
Quote from: Scruffie on November 02, 2011, 03:53:10 PM
Quote from: gtr2 on November 02, 2011, 03:00:46 PM
For something as complex as the dirtbag you want to make sure your parts are close to spec.
Why? I doubt EHX ever did, the original used early ceramic & mylar caps and still even had some carbon comp resistors in the odd one, hardly tight spec components.
Tollerances don't add up through a circuit.
The only place spec is important is listed on the factory schematic, the 240pF Clock cap should be 5% the 2 x 4.7uF Electros in the LFO should be 10% and a handfull of resistors and caps in the audio path.
And even with those specs... I bet they didn't actually keep to most of them.
Well then...I guess I have better quality control than EHX ;D
;D Much as I love them, that's pretty much a given :P
Sorry, I didn't mean to call you out but in the interest of keeping information unbiased, I thought I should mention it before it becomes one of those things that spreads as it is not entirely necessary and alot of begginers and further worry a little too much about parts selection when it is not necessary in order to have a great sounding, fully functional pedal.
You can use your bog standard cheap ceramic/mylar caps and standard 1/4 resistors and cheapy electrolytic caps in everything as long as they are rated correctly and have a nice pedal at the end of it that sounds just as good or better to the ear than one built with very expensive components all perfectly matched (unless there is a particular reason for matching or tollerance, such as that 240pF 5% Cap for clock time) it's a matter of personal choice and what an individual is happy with :)
Me? I'm a lazy, cheap skate with components :D
My DMM (multimeter) has cap measuring which I used to go through a bunch of ceramics to get that 240pF. I actually did two ceramics in parallel. You'd be surprised just how off some of those tolerances really are.
Quote from: madbean on November 02, 2011, 10:48:21 PM
My DMM (multimeter) has cap measuring which I used to go through a bunch of ceramics to get that 240pF. I actually did two ceramics in parallel. You'd be surprised just how off some of those tolerances really are.
No doubt, you can get +/-25% tollerances which could make that 180pF or 300pF, enough for significant change in delay time, important parts of the circuit (those marked with a tollerance rating on the original schematic) should be close to the value specified.
But lets not forget your 5k6 resistor that sets the minimum time can be off along with the pot that controls the delay time (Pots tend to have +/-20% Tollerances) so it should all hopefully even out.
My DMM does capacitance as well. Prolly a good habit to test everything, and I used to... but now I usually only double check resistors when they first arrive in the mail
(Yup, too lazy to learn the color codes) :-[ ;D
So, is there an advantage to using the Capacitance tester kit that the link was posted for over using a DMM to test caps?
I don't think so. My DMM just doesn't have a capacitance setting.
Quote from: masterlk on November 03, 2011, 05:12:34 PM
So, is there an advantage to using the Capacitance tester kit that the link was posted for over using a DMM to test caps?
My dmm doesn't test for capacitance but I like it otherwise- so that's the main reason I was looking at the kit, plus it's probably cheaper than buying a new multimeter and it might be fun to build.
I have noticed that a lot of dmm's have a narrower range of capacitance they can test for though. I think the kit can test anywhere from 1pF to 500uF- which I suppose would be nice. The kit people also brag that having a "dedicated" tester is more accurate. But someone smarter than me would have to vouch for that.
Quote from: Scruffie on November 03, 2011, 12:14:14 AM
Quote from: madbean on November 02, 2011, 10:48:21 PM
My DMM (multimeter) has cap measuring which I used to go through a bunch of ceramics to get that 240pF. I actually did two ceramics in parallel. You'd be surprised just how off some of those tolerances really are.
No doubt, you can get +/-25% tollerances which could make that 180pF or 300pF, enough for significant change in delay time, important parts of the circuit (those marked with a tollerance rating on the original schematic) should be close to the value specified.
But lets not forget your 5k6 resistor that sets the minimum time can be off along with the pot that controls the delay time (Pots tend to have +/-20% Tollerances) so it should all hopefully even out.
None of the 240pFs I had on hand measured over about 212pF (these were ceramics). I also did replace my delay pot. The original I put in there turned out to be about 88k. I measured a few other and pulled one that was 99k.
I'll be putting this kind of info in the build doc. It is a more precision build than your average run-of-the-mill TS, that's for sure!
Quote from: madbean on November 04, 2011, 01:12:42 AM
Quote from: Scruffie on November 03, 2011, 12:14:14 AM
Quote from: madbean on November 02, 2011, 10:48:21 PM
My DMM (multimeter) has cap measuring which I used to go through a bunch of ceramics to get that 240pF. I actually did two ceramics in parallel. You'd be surprised just how off some of those tolerances really are.
No doubt, you can get +/-25% tollerances which could make that 180pF or 300pF, enough for significant change in delay time, important parts of the circuit (those marked with a tollerance rating on the original schematic) should be close to the value specified.
But lets not forget your 5k6 resistor that sets the minimum time can be off along with the pot that controls the delay time (Pots tend to have +/-20% Tollerances) so it should all hopefully even out.
None of the 240pFs I had on hand measured over about 212pF (these were ceramics). I also did replace my delay pot. The original I put in there turned out to be about 88k. I measured a few other and pulled one that was 99k.
I'll be putting this kind of info in the build doc. It is a more precision build than your average run-of-the-mill TS, that's for sure!
Do you have the original schematic part tollerances on your redrawn schem/parts list?
If you want I can write them out on your parts list for you, the value of those parts is important (and I agree the delay pot value is even though it's not listed on the schem, I guess they had the pots they had)
There must be a supplier of cheap decent tollerance ceramics or mylars, EHX clearly had access to them 30 years ago.
It definitley is more precision, my initial point was that not every part needs to be measured to spec for it, some do in this build, but a lot of it wont really matter, the audio is just like a bunch of TSs stuck together :D
And with the original design process, I doubt they even measured the breadboarding parts let alone production parts other than those tollerances, so who knows what the 'true' values were... plus, where's the fun without variation in sound.
I bought and tested two MN3005s from this seller on Ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Panasonic-MN3005-IC-4096-STAGE-LONG-DELAY-BBD-1pc-/160561689809?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256238f4d1#ht_3441wt_754
YMMV, but these ones are the real deal; each has ~300ms delay time and can run at 15V. I read on another forum that they're pulled from old karaoke machines. Good luck!
I'm excited this project is getting closer!! Even though I have the MN3005's, I may just build the V3205 version and save those for something else.
Here's the DMM I use --> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=VC99 It's only 30 bucks!! Comes w/ everything you'll need. Has a capacitance checker but the DIY kit will be way more accurate. I haven't found a cheap DMM that will read pf also. That tester will read 1 pf which is not common. I agree if it could be put in an enclosure easier it would be better.
I don't plan on worrying to much about exact value when I build my DB. I'll probably try buying some larger ceramic value to find the 240pf, like 330pf or something like that.
Quote from: Scruffie on November 02, 2011, 08:20:10 PM
Me? I'm a lazy, cheap skate with components :D
This is how I feel too. I order cheap stuff and always check it! Never any complaints about sound quality from me or people I've built for.
Quote from: bigmufffuzzwizz on November 08, 2011, 09:25:11 PM
Quote from: Scruffie on November 02, 2011, 08:20:10 PM
Me? I'm a lazy, cheap skate with components :D
This is how I feel too. I order cheap stuff and always check it! Never any complaints about sound quality from me or people I've built for.
I buy cheap stuff... but I never check it ;D
Haven't been bitten once, even with extremley complicated builds (Yes I have actually build an EHX Attack Decay... it took fuckin' ages) which used not just cheap parts that may have been off value, but the
wrong valued cheap parts... although that could have put them back in to spec :D
Certain builds are gunna need care taken, but for most of the stompboxes we build? Even the BBD ones... i'll keep taking my lazy/cheap way and getting away with it. Unless of course something like matching is required, then it's more of a given.
hi guys.
Xicon is discontinuing the "greenies" serie.
i can't find any 2n7, 3n9, 1n2
any ideas?
thanks
Where are you placing an order from? Mouser?
2n7 = 2700pF
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Kemet/MMK5272K50J01L4BULK/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvOcEq4GH1AAlEnXbJRHweNYUYRD7DpZzc%3d
3n9 = 3900pF
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Kemet/MMK5392J63J01L165TR18/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvOcEq4GH1AAg8ZNcVjbXn7J1rwJ6YmS%252bU%3d
or
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/QYX2A392KTP/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvOcEq4GH1AAkdEbt1UQq6Wp3xjIRtGqz4%3d
1n2 = 1200pF
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Kemet/MMK5122M63J01L165TR18/?qs=IKDMbYZLynAiaIzlvnAj0g%3d%3d
or
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/QYX1H122KTP/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvOcEq4GH1AAkdEbt1UQq6WoHJwgC%2fRIH0%3d
Josh
no, i'm in EU. mouser shipping costs are too much for small orders..
I'll take a look around..
Tayda has greenies...and cheap shipping.
http://www.taydaelectronics.com/servlet/StoreFront
Are these good for the 27pF, 120pF, 150pF, and 240pF? Also, my trimpots are about 1/4" and don't fit between the resistors. Is there a better/smaller option. I'm using the Cermet's from Smallbear.
Quote from: tenwatt on November 28, 2011, 04:22:50 PM
Are these good for the 27pF, 120pF, 150pF, and 240pF? Also, my trimpots are about 1/4" and don't fit between the resistors. Is there a better/smaller option. I'm using the Cermet's from Smallbear.
Are what good?
But if they're caps then yeah... they're good. Ceramics, Film, Silver mica, just depends how much you want to spend.
The trimpot, I think the boards are sized for the Bourn 3362 type, Tayda have them - http://www.taydaelectronics.com/servlet/the-Potentiometer--fdsh--Variable-Resistors-cln-Cermet-Potentiometers-cln-3362P/Categories
Crap...I forgot to post the link:
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=C317C270J5G5TAvirtualkey64600000virtualkey80-C317C270J5G
Also...those trimmers are exactly what I have. They don't fit between the resistors in some spots. The pins line up perfect they just don't lay flat on the board. I'm being anal.
The Cermets from Smallbear are 3/8" not 1/4". The 1/4" are available from Mouser or ebay. Bourns is a popular type.
Jacob
Quote from: tenwatt on November 28, 2011, 04:49:41 PM
Crap...I forgot to post the link:
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=C317C270J5G5TAvirtualkey64600000virtualkey80-C317C270J5G
Also...those trimmers are exactly what I have. They don't fit between the resistors in some spots. The pins line up perfect they just don't lay flat on the board. I'm being anal.
Look good, 5% tollerance, should be perfect.
Quote from: jkokura on November 28, 2011, 04:52:44 PM
The Cermets from Smallbear are 3/8" not 1/4". The 1/4" are available from Mouser or ebay. Bourns is a popular type.
Jacob
Well whatd'ya know, are the Tayda ones suitable? Can't see a mention of size.
Quote from: Scruffie on November 28, 2011, 05:06:37 PM
Quote from: tenwatt on November 28, 2011, 04:49:41 PM
Crap...I forgot to post the link:
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=C317C270J5G5TAvirtualkey64600000virtualkey80-C317C270J5G
Also...those trimmers are exactly what I have. They don't fit between the resistors in some spots. The pins line up perfect they just don't lay flat on the board. I'm being anal.
Look good, 5% tollerance, should be perfect.
Quote from: jkokura on November 28, 2011, 04:52:44 PM
The Cermets from Smallbear are 3/8" not 1/4". The 1/4" are available from Mouser or ebay. Bourns is a popular type.
Jacob
Well whatd'ya know, are the Tayda ones suitable? Can't see a mention of size.
Tayda are 3362 so yeah they be the perfect peice.
Didn't I read somewhere that the #1 pin on one of the ICs or BBDs had to be clipped off or something? I can't find that in the build doc. Am I imagining things?
Quote from: tenwatt on November 29, 2011, 09:15:31 PM
Didn't I read somewhere that the #1 pin on one of the ICs or BBDs had to be clipped off or something? I can't find that in the build doc. Am I imagining things?
I believe that's true for the LT1054 charge pump chip. IIRC, there's some info in the new Road Rage doc.
Ahhhh, yes. That's what I'm remembering. Thanx!
Yeah, thats on the charge pump if you use e lt1054. Dont clip the first pin off your 3005's. ;D
Quote from: dwstanford on November 30, 2011, 01:25:18 AM
Yeah, thats on the charge pump if you use e lt1054. Dont clip the first pin off your 3005's. ;D
Holy crap. I literally winced when I read that.
Quote from: jubal81 on November 30, 2011, 04:01:38 AM
Quote from: dwstanford on November 30, 2011, 01:25:18 AM
Yeah, thats on the charge pump if you use e lt1054. Dont clip the first pin off your 3005's. ;D
Holy crap. I literally winced when I read that.
Yea i really held my breath...
Pro tip - dont cut pins off of ICs (!)
You might need them to troubleshoot another project which requires all pins intact, and on a rarer or more expensive / hard to source IC, I wouldnt risk mutilating it
The solution is to take a second IC socket, and remove the correlating pin from that, then insert the IC into the "trimmed" socket, then plug that into the second socket soldered on your board.
HOpe that makes sense
Quote from: dwstanford on November 30, 2011, 01:25:18 AMDont clip the first pin off your 3005's. ;D
No. I wouldn't have. I would have modded my socket.
I am getting ready to order my parts for this after I finish up a few other things. I noticed the build doc calls for a 2n5087 transistor which I believe is PNP, I can see in the schematic how it is connected to VC+, what is the function? to drive the overload LED?
^^^I'm pretty sure you are correct in it being to drive the OL LED. I noticed in the build docs that if you dont want the OL LED you can eliminate the 2N5087 (as well as a few other parts).
Hey Guys!
When using the Road Rage board for 15v with the MN3005 version of the Dirt Bag, do the electro caps on the Road Rage need to be 25v or higher or will the 16v caps I have be ok?
I am thinking lower Volt. rating is ok since the Rage is receiving 9V, but the Bag elecros need to be higher since they are getting hit with 15V. Correct?
Thanks!
Hi all !
I' m actually build it (3005's)
but i missed R43 (1M5) resistor
Is this value is essential or not ?
Thanks,
Mich P.
Hmm, I cant seem to find R43 on the schematic! :P
Where do you live? Maybe I can send you one. PM me if you want one.
(http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/11/11961/12249046.jpg)
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 13, 2011, 07:07:32 PM
(http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/11/11961/12249046.jpg)
LOL! (Bummer if you got a fake tho :( )
Can you post a link of the fakes so we can avoid?
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on December 13, 2011, 08:03:46 PM
Can you post a link of the fakes so we can avoid?
Jacob
Nah it was just something from FSB that I made
I didnt buy any more mn3005
the only one I had was good, is in my Aqua Puss
it was $16 now the seller charges $30
Quote from: gtr2 on November 02, 2011, 07:55:16 PM
Quote from: Haberdasher on November 02, 2011, 05:57:40 PM
I've been wanting to get one of these (http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9485). I once talked to a fellow diy'er (I think it was Chris) who gave it 2 thumbs up.
I use one of these too. Easy build and it works well, it would be better if it was easier to stick in some sort of enclosure. It's saved me a few times from wrongly marked caps. The caps were labeled on the bag wrong and you couldn't read the microprint well
Ordered one last week on your recommendations. Cant wait! I hope it gets here before Christmas. That is going to be the only building time for awhile.
Thanks for the tip!
What caps in this build is part of the audio signal?
I suck at understanding schematics, but I want to use audiograde caps in the audiopath.
Could someone list all caps that is part of the audiopath? or all non audio caps?
Hi guys,
Cannot find any 910k resistors in my stash. Is this anything i should care or can i go for two 1M resistors?
I mean, i could order/buy them quite easily but i'm this lazy guy..
Quote from: djaaz on December 29, 2011, 12:30:45 AM
Hi guys,
Cannot find any 910k resistors in my stash. Is this anything i should care or can i go for two 1M resistors?
I mean, i could order/buy them quite easily but i'm this lazy guy..
1Ms will probably be fine, might slightly alter the modulation speed but meh.
Thanks Scruffie.
Because i'm still lazy, but don't like so much the word "alter", i'm gonna go for two 470k's serial.
Anyway, there's still a huge MN3005 question for me at the end of this build.