Okay, earlier in the week I couldn't get me Naughty Fish going. Now it sounds pretty good on all permutations of the down range switch. When I switch it to the up position it doesn't engage the filter sound at all, just plain guitar. Is that one of the two vactrols? I'm looking at the schematic and I see Hi/Lo A involves vactrol 1 vs Hi/Lo B dealing with vactrol 2, but which is high and which is low (A or B)? I'd like to know which area to look at. Or I guess the range is more in this section? I'm mostly illiterate at schematics. I guess I'm still trying to figure out is Range A up or down?
Thanks,
Brad
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/bscur/Capture%20Range.png) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bscur/media/Capture%20Range.png.html)
I'm having a similar issue on a PCB i made for myself, so i'm interested in any help as well. The Hi/Lo switch is a double pole switch, so switched one way, both stages (vacatrols) have one value of capacitor, switched the other, they both have the other value. So don't thing there is any issues there
The up/down is for the envelope portion that you have shown. Either sweeps up with the enveope or down. All I can offer is try changing the input gain over it's range and see if you can get it to engage, also try varying the sweep trimmer. Take some voltage measurements on Pin 7 of IC2 when in up and down positions.
Hopefully someone else can chime in.
Also, the Range switch is a 2 pole switch as well, meaning two different spots are switched when you toggle. So A and B are switching when you toggle the switch. So, when pin 2 is connected to pin 1 on both A and B, that is one position of the switch. And when pin 2 is connected to pin 3 on both A and B, that is the other position. So two poles, two position, or Dual Pole Dual Throw, or DPDT. 3 Poles with 2 positions would be 3PDT (like the stomp switch)....
There are inconsistencies between the names of the switches on the PCB and elsewhere, and the labels are meaningless anyway since they don't really describe the functions. If you're referring to the switch labeled "range" in the snippet you cut out, when it's in the position shown on the schematic, it's in "Down" and the LEDs will turn off when the envelope triggers: The switch connects the input of the op amp's + pin to a higher voltage, the output of the envelope (IC2A) is a positive voltage, which when inverted by the op amp (it's the - pin) drives DOWN the output voltage of the op amp. In the other switch position, the + pin is held to a lower voltage, and positive voltage at the + pin will instead raise the output voltage, putting the anodes of the LEDs above ground and turning them on.
I'm pretty sure it's explained in The Technology of Envelope Filters, which is linked in the build document.
Which switch position is which? Well, aside from there being a clue in the build document itself, you can put your multimeter in beep mode and see which components are connected by the switch in any given position. You'll learn a lot more that way than having someone tell you.
Thanks, I appreciate the exploration ethic. I've been a teacher for over 20 years and know that's a good way to learn. However, if anyone could answer my question I'd appreciate it. My background is in history, English and wood shop. Electronics is foreign to me and the learning curve is steep. I'm asking because I've been looking and can't figure it out myself.
Look at the drilling template. The labels for the center switch tell you which way is which.
Thanks. I had looked at that, but the wiring diagram lists the two as Range A and Range B, not the Range Up and Range Down that the drilling template shows. I was wondering does Range A = Range Up or does Range A = Range Down. That was my main question at the start because I was trying to use the schematic a bit to figure things out, but clearly I'm not very good at reading it. When I get a chance I'll try the continuity tests you proposed, if that's the right term for it.
See if this helps.
Range "A" means pole A of the range switch. Range B means pole B of the Range switch. You have two logic switches you are controlling with one toggle. So, two switches in one.
(http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-v1X_9o5uby0/VxhYWYYIvbI/AAAAAAAAuIg/ySS5kmP9Kbg519PV-FF2Udb3EePI2-VxQCCo/s603-Ic42/Capture.JPG)
when the toggle is one way, pin 2 it connected to pin 1, for both A and B
when the toggle is the other way, pin 2 is connected to pin 3, for both A and B poles
Wow, that actually helps a lot. Thank you. The visual is very helpful. I appreciate it.
I just put mine together. I've never played with a Mutron before, so I'm not really sure how exactly it's supposed to sound or function. But I did notice that I had to adjust the gain to different settings for it to work in the different range settings. Not sure if that is how it is supposed to behave. I guess I need to go check YouTube
I built my Naughty Fish and was having the same problem. Im gonna try and order another On-On-On Switch, as Ive been reading around and thats what someone said could be my problem. My post with pics is on this thread. I hope you figure it out too!
Quote from: fredwreck on April 23, 2016, 06:39:57 PM
I built my Naughty Fish and was having the same problem. Im gonna try and order another On-On-On Switch, as Ive been reading around and thats what someone said could be my problem. My post with pics is on this thread. I hope you figure it out too!
The on-on-on switch is for the mode, it has nothing to do with the range.
The "Up" mode has a lot of "broken" settings, where nothing happens, especially with the sweep anywhere but at minimum. Usually a gain adjustment fixes it.
FINALLLYYYY!!! I got my NF to work. It sounds beautiful!
I swapped out those MI1210CLF-R vactrols and got some Xvive VTL5C3 from cabintech for $15.00.
Honestly what confused me is the PDF. On one page it lists the MI1210CLF-R vactrols in the parts, then on another page it tells you otherwise. I dont even know why they have it in the BOM, but it should be removed from the PDF for clarity. I think anyone having problems with this build should get the VTL5C3 before even posting anything.
Good luck! and thanks to everyone who chirped in to help.
Quote from: fredwreck on November 11, 2016, 05:14:07 AM
Honestly what confused me is the PDF. On one page it lists the MI1210CLF-R vactrols in the parts, then on another page it tells you otherwise. I dont even know why they have it in the BOM, but it should be removed from the PDF for clarity. I think anyone having problems with this build should get the VTL5C3 before even posting anything.
I think part of the problem is that at one point, the Macron vactrols DID work. Brian even used them in some prototypes -- you can see them in his build picture at the end of the PDF. For some reason the ones people have been getting don't work properly. I just e-mailed him with this thread.
It seems that there was some kind of change in the manufacturing of the Macron at some point (as far as I can tell). I have used them successfully on many different builds but all those were purchased more than a year or two ago. I've noticed a couple times that people posting issues on the forum have Macrons with a blue dot instead of the yellow dot they used to have, so I am wondering if that signifies some sort of change from the manufacturer.
Interestingly, we have been using a couple of recently purchased Macrons in FFX stuff without problem so I kinda held off on saying anything for a while. But, I think it's probably safest at this point to change the BOM and recommend the VTL5C3 only.
I will order another Macron on my next smallbear order and see what I can find out.
Yea those are the ones I have, with the blue dot. And your right the build picture shows the Macrons in it, so that was throwing me for a loop. I hope this helps other people having a problem.
Thanks for your help Brian.
The blue dot is for the supposed VTL5C1 substitute. Theoretically, it should work the same or better than the 5C3 substitute, because it would have a higher total dark resistance (which is limited by a parallel resistor). The important characteristics of making it work right in a Mutron III build wouldn't change, though, so it's not like you just bought the wrong Macron -- the gold dot ones don't work either.
Hey.. whatever the Einstein astro physics behind it is. It still doesnt work.. Get the VTLs!
I was just about to start another thread with the same basic issue... in my Naughty Fish build, everything seems to be OK in the Range=Down position. In the Range=Up position I either get no effect, or an auto-wah that is so quiet as to be almost useless. I fiddled with the gain, sweep, trimmer, and master volume pots in all permutations of the other switches where Range=Up. I spent a bunch of time with it and I just couldn't get any useful sounds dialed in with Range=Up.
I'm using the Macron "F" style Optocouplers from Smallbear. I ordered them a few months ago. Is the recommendation that I should order the VTL5C3 from another source? Or should I do some other troubleshooting? All of my voltages look reasonable as compared to the documentation.
Thanks.
Quote from: taeagan on November 12, 2016, 04:21:54 AM
I was just about to start another thread with the same basic issue... in my Naughty Fish build, everything seems to be OK in the Range=Down position. In the Range=Up position I either get no effect, or an auto-wah that is so quiet as to be almost useless. I fiddled with the gain, sweep, trimmer, and master volume pots in all permutations of the other switches where Range=Up. I spent a bunch of time with it and I just couldn't get any useful sounds dialed in with Range=Up.
I'm using the Macron "F" style Optocouplers from Smallbear. I ordered them a few months ago. Is the recommendation that I should order the VTL5C3 from another source? Or should I do some other troubleshooting? All of my voltages look reasonable as compared to the documentation.
Thanks.
Trash those Macrons..goto ebay and search for Xvive Audio VTL5C3! Cabin Global has them for $7.00!
It should be money after that! Let us know if it works after you replace them.
i made my own LED/LDR combos. first it did not seem to work properly in the filter down mode. Then i noticed that guitar signal was not enough to turn the leds completely of. replaced the 5k trimmer with 25k and now it works!
EDIT: actually I found out that the main problem is that the bias voltage in down mode, defined by resistors r18 and r19 is not optimal. I replaced those with a trimmer working as a voltage divider and now i can really tune in all those crazy funky filter sounds from the pedal.