Hey Guys,
I've come to my whits end with spray paints. I've been looking at powder coat set ups but its all Greek to me. Where do I start? I know I need a gun, compressor, powder, and toaster oven. What do you guys use? Would you recommend the Harbor Freight system? Brands, links, and pictures would be ideal. I've read and watched a couple of tutorials, seems easier and less involved than spray paint. I already have a compressor so I could Craigslist a toaster oven but I'm clueless about the gun. Thanks in advance!
+1 on this!!!
I've had it with paint. Paint sucks. I'm ready to switch as well, and also have a compressor. Been watching a lot of vids.
Glad to help. I would highly suggest the Eastwood gun. You really don't need the whole kit however. You need the gun, a compressor, grounding wire, heat proof tape, toaster oven and powder. I also suggest making a rig to hold your boxes while you bake like this:
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/27/y5usudan.jpg)
This rig is simply some tie plates (for wood beams as you get at the home improvement store) and some 1/4-20 screws and bolts.
You may want to get some silicone plugs to stop up holes as well.
For powder I recommend Columbia Coatings.
I intend to do a picture tutorial on just how easy and rewarding the process actually is. Once you have the equipment, powder is cheap. Nothing more satisfying than taking an enclosure out of the oven after 20 minutes and it's done. No waiting for curing, and no smell. It's way worth it.
Could you please elaborate on your working space, Ben?
Does the entire room get covered in powder? Can you do it indoors (think apartment)? How much mess does it make?
Quote from: muddyfox on March 26, 2014, 09:38:20 PM
Could you please elaborate on your working space, Ben?
Does the entire room get covered in powder? Can you do it indoors (think apartment)? How much mess does it make?
I do it in the garage. It can make a mess so if you are doing it inside you can spray in a cardboard box to minimize it. The mess is just powder dust so it wipes off easily and vacuums/sweeps up no problem. You can do it outside but make sure the wind won't blow your powder off the enclosure.
Basically I take the raw enclosure and wipe it down with acetone until noote black stuff comes off on the paper towel. Then I bake the enclosure for 15 minutes at about 385. This gets any last oils or fibers off. It also prewarms the enclosure which promotes powder adhesion
Then I fire up the powder rig and spray the enclosures. You have to ensure they are grounded to the rig. You can tape a grounding wire to them with the heat proof tape or I use my stand rig (Thanks Cody!) to ground it.
A light coat of dust will adhere to the enclosure based on static attraction. Pay attention to get the edges and sides completely covered.
You then will carefully move it to the oven without bumping it or disturbing the powder. Bake at about 385F for 15-20 minutes after "flow out". If you want you can take the enclosure out after 10 minutes while the powder is "wet" and spray it again to ensure coverage.
After the 15-20 minutes is done, you are done! As soon as the enclosure cools you can do whatever you want to it. Easy peasy. The dust can make a mess but it's not smelly whatsoever.
I have the harbor freight rig and I've had mixed results. More often than not I get orange peel so I've reverted back to PPP for now. I don't know if the issue has been bad powder coverage or my toaster oven sucks. I even put an oven thermometer in to verify temp, but still the varied results. :(
Tutorial by fastocker Powder Coating Tutorial (http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=1785.0)
Quote from: Leevibe on March 26, 2014, 10:47:23 PM
I have the harbor freight rig and I've had mixed results. More often than not I get orange peel so I've reverted back to PPP for now. I don't know if the issue has been bad powder coverage or my toaster oven sucks. I even put an oven thermometer in to verify temp, but still the varied results. :(
check this for orange peel issues http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=1785.msg34412#msg34412
On the topic of mess and garages:
BE ULTRA CAREFUL where the dust goes when there are cars around. The car bonnet heats up the powder will cure and stick to it. The roof will also heat up in the sun and have the same problem. This happened twice with both cars and it got to the point that I was going to throw in the towel as every time I would PC I would end up waxing one of the cars!! And the stuff STICKS. One bonnet took over 10 wax jobs to get the PC dust off!
But I was also being very careless with the dust so:
- Spray inside something like cardboard box. I use a plastic storage box. Take the box outside and brush it off onto the lawn or anywhere outside the garage.
- Get a long enough hose for your compressor so you can take the air gun outside with the powder gun and spray it off again, outside of the garage.
- use a small dust buster to suck up the remaining powder.
For me it wasn't just a matter of 'sweeping it up'. It was becoming a huge problem, but now I have it under control. Save yourself the time and anguish, keep the dust contained and get rid of it outdoors.
Paul
Quote from: jimmybjj on March 26, 2014, 11:06:53 PM
Tutorial by fastocker Powder Coating Tutorial (http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=1785.0)
Quote from: Leevibe on March 26, 2014, 10:47:23 PM
I have the harbor freight rig and I've had mixed results. More often than not I get orange peel so I've reverted back to PPP for now. I don't know if the issue has been bad powder coverage or my toaster oven sucks. I even put an oven thermometer in to verify temp, but still the varied results. :(
check this for orange peel issues http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=1785.msg34412#msg34412
Thanks Jim. Looks like enough reading there to keep me busy for a while
I have a regular box fan with a furnace filter tied to the back. I spray the powder in front of that. The over spray gets sucked into the filter. Dead simple and it cuts down on the dust that used to go everywhere.
I am interested too
I already have this from redoing furniture, would this work for painting enclosures?
http://www.lowes.com/pd_326053-89183-HV2900USG_4294684405__?productId=3142757&Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNs%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar%7C1&facetInfo=
Peak, you need a powder coating gun specifically for powder coating. The gun is powered so electrostatic energy holds the powder onto the metal. A regular spray gun is not made for that purpose.
I bought the Eastwood kit and it works great. I built a mobile paint booth that contains all the accessories on a bottom shelf and has a box built on to the back with filter fabric in front of it. In the back of the box is a place to mount my shop vac. The powder clouds get vacuumed up and no mess. I get a ton of satisfaction from pc. Better looking colors, more color choices, quicker, less messy and more durable than spray paint. My booth is similar to this guys but bigger and on wheels.
The fan is the only thing im missing from my set up. I'm going to have hook something up! I'm assuming low cfm would be what im after as not to disturb the powder?
Quote from: chromesphere on March 27, 2014, 12:33:52 AM
The fan is the only thing im missing from my set up. I'm going to have hook something up! I'm assuming low cfm would be what im after as not to disturb the powder?
By the time the Shop Vac vacuum hits the filter it's not moving much air. Just enough to suck up the hovering dust.
I wsa thinking a small pc fan or something but wheres the dust going to go? lol Actually I wonder if I could hook up a pipe to the dust buster...hmmm, ideas!
Quote from: chromesphere on March 27, 2014, 12:04:37 AM
Peak, you need a powder coating gun specifically for powder coating. The gun is powered so electrostatic energy holds the powder onto the metal. A regular spray gun is not made for that purpose.
aha...thanks for explaining that.
So my next two questions are....
1. I have primer, spray painted, and clear coated my enclosures up to this point with pretty good results. What benefit does powder coating provide over that?
2. The cost of paint and time, space, clean up, etc. compared to just buying already painted enclosures seems like a wash or possibly even worse, what is the point? Just custom colors?
Powder per enclosure is almost negligible its so cheap but you have the set up costs. You pay $10 for say 500grams of powder then you have enough to last you until the powder turns bad (going on 2 years for me, still works fine). Prepainted enclosures are about 2-3 dollars extra. So you can see diy is cheaper once you pay up for the set up costs.
Benefits of powder coating...well here are a few. Powder coating dries hard very quickly. You can assemble a pedal 1-2 hours after you have sprayed it. That was one of the biggest pro for me. If done right its more durable. There are some pretty amazing colors and effects. Its quicker to apply. Just a few off the top of my head.
Quote from: chromesphere on March 27, 2014, 01:05:11 AM
Powder per enclosure is almost negligible its so cheap but you have the set up costs. You pay $10 for say 500grams of powder then you have enough to last you until the powder turns bad (going on 2 years for me, still works fine). Prepainted enclosures are about 2-3 dollars extra. So you can see diy is cheaper once you pay up for the set up costs.
Benefits of powder coating...well here are a few. Powder coating dries hard very quickly. You can assemble a pedal 1-2 hours after you have sprayed it. That was one of the biggest pro for me. If done right its more durable. There are some pretty amazing colors and effects. Its quicker to apply. Just a few off the top of my head.
but how does it compare to buying enclosures already painted from say Mammoth or PPP? Paint adds about what....$3 an enclosure. It seems, and I may be wrong here, that to have a ton of colors, time to paint, space, etc. that unless you are making a lot of pedals and selling them, it's not worth it.
Is this a fair statement, or ?
Exactly. Well, you don't have to SELL the pedals, but yeah, you have to be making a decent amount of them to justify the cost. I've said this actually before about powder coating. If you have some $$$ to burn and you want to learn something new, sure, go for pc'ing its a lot of fun. But financially I personally think pc'ing is more suited for 'runs' of pedals. That said, if you have a compressor and you can get powders cheap, most of the cost is taken care of and it would be viable even on a smaller scale but I had to buy the whole box and dice (compressor, gun, powders, oven) so it added up to be quite a bit. Still I would have paid it off by now for sure. I never manage to get many pedals sprayed with a can of enamel anyway :D
Yeah, makes sense. For now, I think I will buy painted enclosures and occasionally spray paint them.
How do you guys apply decals after powder coating your enclosures?
Is it possible to apply a waterslide decal then cover it with a clear powder, or would this still require rattle can clear?
I've been seriously considering putting together a simple (single color) screen printing setup, but since I know basically nothing I expect this to be quite a learning experience.
Excellent question Bugg!
To be honest my success with decals and clear vary. The 'correct' way to do it I believe is with a dual power PC gun. You would lay down your base, let it cool down, put a decal on, change the voltage on the gun (increase it) spray clear over that. You need to increase the voltage so that the static will still work through the extra layer of coating that now covers the enclosure.
The 'cheaters' way to do dual coat with a single voltage gun is to lay down the base, heat it up, and pull it out of the oven and lay down the 2nd coat WHILE ITS HOT. It's known as 'hot flocking', sounds saucey and works quite well. But how do you apply a water decal to a hot enclosure? You cant. That's the dilemma. Many people use single voltage guns with decals with success, just pointing out that its not the 'professional' way and you can have issues if you do it this way.
I've had numerous problems clearing powder over decals. The clearing or sticking to the enclosure is not the problem. The problem is the durability of the clear over the decal. It tends to lift up easy after curing and results in air bubble pockets between the decal and clear. This can happen even long after the clear is dried...envirotex is the way to go with this if u must. It's a total pain in the ass to clear coat powder over decals for me. Usually everything looks great until I try to clear it and then it goes wrong...meaning sanding/stripping all that hard work I did. Better options would be to use a vinyl decal or better yet- silkscreen
AH ha! Same with me Ben! This is why I said "haven't had too much success". Im glad you confirmed that cheers! I do that too (enamel clear coat).
This pretty much confirms my thoughts, thanks for the answers.
I think I am going to focus on silk screening for the moment... Getting pre-powdered enclosures is affordable enough but professional screen printing is a bit costly unless working in batches. I don't need a fancy multicolor press, just a simple one color rig with some vinyl ink should be more than enough.
Ok, after doing a bit of reading (thank you for all the posts and replies) I have come to a few conclusions.
1. Powder coat is the way to go for better results and a more durable finish.
2. It's not as expensive as I thought and can actually save me money in the long run (including time an effort).
3. I would still need to spray clear coat and cure if I want to get a good clear on there with a water slide.
Yes, number 3 is exactly what's keeping me from swallowing the setup cost (think USA prices x3).
My main purpose for going PC would be getting rid of spraycans and it seems I can't do that. Unless I go envirotex, which I (still ::) ) haven't tried.
A lot of opinions here and I'll chime in --
You can definitely shoot clear over waterslide decals . . . it just takes some technique. Make sure you apply the decal correctly (no trapped air) and let it dry thoroughly -- several hours or overnight if possible. I like to shoot low-temp clear (325 deg. F cure temp) as there is less tendency to burn the decal. One of the issues that may plague some folks is the use of small toaster ovens -- I would imagine they have a tendency to scorch things due to the tight space and proximity of the heating elements. I'm fortunate enough to have room for a normal sized electric oven in my garage so that helps.
For a dual (or variable) voltage gun, you actually want to reduce the voltage for a second coat, not increase it. Here's a pedal I did with a waterslide decal and clear powdercoating on top --
(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc18/Fastocker/SRVS-001.jpg)
For the seasoned coaters . . . . . since I do quite a bit of powdercoating beyond pedal enclosures (smaller car parts, household items, etc.) I 'graduated' to a Red Line EZ50 gun (http://www.caswellplating.com/red-line-ez50-powder-coating-system.html (http://www.caswellplating.com/red-line-ez50-powder-coating-system.html)) -- pricey but, MAN, it shoots so much nicer than an Eastwood gun. Multiple coats are a breeze now.
I'll second everything fastocker has said. I don't get that glassy smooth finish with decals 100% of the time, but it's better than 90% I think he is spot on concerning the moisture content of the decal, once I learned to really "smash"the decal with a paper towel and let it dry over night my success rate jump drastically, using the Eastwood gun.
Personally I don't advocate hot flocking for transparent coatings, especially ones with a tint. It is really hard to control the consistency and thickness, often producing a framing effect. It is possible to multistage coat with the Eastwood gun it's just a little tricky. All that being said I have now moved on the a variable voltage gun as well (hyper smooth powder systems) and multistage is significantly easier.
Ok, so water slides are possible if fully dried and have absolutely no air bubbles. Has anyone tried Envirotex on a powder coated enclosure? What about doing a powder base hand paint the graphics the powder clear, or is that too many variables? I've been checking ebay for a good deal on an East wood gun but they all seem to run the same price. One more question, has, or does, anyone used the Craftsman compressor-less gun?
Yeah, I use the Craftsman gun. I've had it a couple of years now and it still works just fine. When I bought mine Amazon was blowing them out for $27. I wish I'd bought a second one to use just for clear coat. The little cup that holds the powder is a real pain to remove and install.
Here's the link to my original post about it:
http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=1785.msg29473#msg29473
Interesting to know people have had success with clear over waterslides. I had a run of pedals I built, germanium boosters, they where white with a holographic flick and they looked awesome if I don't mind saying so. But the clearcoat cracked incredibly easily. I've gained a lot of experience since then and thinking about it now, I probably just undercured it! All this talk is making me want to whip out the gun, wink wink ;-)
Oh yeah, and don't even try it with an inkjet decal. The enamel / acrylic clearcoat you spray inkjet decals with will burn / brown in the toaster oven when you cure the PC clear coat at 150-200 degrees C. Use a laserjet decal.
I had an issue with the browning but I used an extra wire rack covered in tin foil wedged at the top of the oven. This stopped the browning of the decal but did not help the brittleness of the clear on top of the decal. If it gets hit, or you tighten a pot nut too much- the clear lifts on me. Not worth it IMO. Silkscreen, vinyl self adhesive decal, or waterslide/envirotex is the way to go.
That's the exact problem I had Ben, figured it was from not curing long enough, but now im not so sure.
So you guys do a base of PC, a water slide, then Envirotex. I guess its time to look up this envirotex product.
Could you use a stencil when applying a second contrasting colour/coat of powder, remove the stencil, then bake and have a nice stencilled image or would the second coat melt and spread leaving a Dali-esque image?
Quote from: davent on March 28, 2014, 04:58:55 AM
Could you use a stencil when applying a second contrasting colour/coat of powder, remove the stencil, then bake and have a nice stencilled image or would the second coat melt and spread leaving a Dali-esque image?
Yep, you can do this depending on the stencil material you use. The way to do it is to shoot your first color and then cure/cool. Apply your stencil (vinyl graphics will work), shoot your second color and then put it in the oven just for a minute or two . . . . just until the second color powder starts to flow. Pull it out of the oven, let it cool and then carefully remove the stencil. Then back in the oven for the full cure time.
Exception to the rule -- reds. Reds bleed with other colors pretty easily.
^Alright, good to know, thank you!
And beautiful job on the Tubescreamer!
dave
You can also use the heat resistant blue tape to mask or even cut out stencils.
Quote from: rullywowr on March 28, 2014, 03:41:01 PM
You can also use the heat resistant blue tape to mask or even cut out stencils.
hmmm this ^ is interesting. You guys are a fountain of good information.
agree with the comments from most here, I've had good success with clear powder over a decal.
Must use laser print waterslide though. I let them dry overnight, and almost never coat while its hot or even warm.
I did have one chip off but probably undercured.
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa361/wgc2005/E77ED986-8C5A-4E73-806A-B4D405809FCB-8186-000014F11FD0AB7D.jpg)
blurry pic but you get the idea.
This is most likely a topic for a new thread, but have any of you guys done any "DIY" screen printing?
I'm curious to know the bare minimum involved to get good quality results...
I figure at the least I'll need:
- Frame/screen
- Some form of light box (or frame for sun exposure)
- Photo emulsion and sensitizer
- Transparent positives
- Squeegee
- And of course some sort of ink (vinyl?)
I feel like I
might could get by without a press if I build some sort of makeshift rig to hold the enclosure/frame in place.
I'm really only looking to use a single color (generally either white or black) and only print on the face of the enclosure.
Ideally I'd like a self-tensioning screen frame so I can do one-offs without the need to buy tons of frames or fooling with emulsion remover too much.
Any thoughts?
Quote from: BuGG on March 28, 2014, 05:38:38 PM
This is most likely a topic for a new thread, but have any of you guys done any "DIY" screen printing?
I'm curious to know the bare minimum involved to get good quality results...
I figure at the least I'll need:
- Frame/screen
- Some form of light box (or frame for sun exposure)
- Photo emulsion and sensitizer
- Transparent positives
- Squeegee
- And of course some sort of ink (vinyl?)
I feel like I might could get by without a press if I build some sort of makeshift rig to hold the enclosure/frame in place.
I'm really only looking to use a single color (generally either white or black) and only print on the face of the enclosure.
Ideally I'd like a self-tensioning screen frame so I can do one-offs without the need to buy tons of frames or fooling with emulsion remover too much.
Any thoughts?
Check out this Thread. It just started last week.
Geez, I don't want, a powder coating setup, i neeeed a powder coating rig, right now, immediately. ;D You yanks are really spoilt for choice,(for most things) ;) there's nothing cheap for sale here in Oz. I was looking yesterday and the cheapest rig i could find was near $600 :o, but i do have the compressor, toaster oven and a stepdown transformer already, so if anyone has a setup for sale or knows of a good deal going, let us know, thanks, Matt.
Quote from: hoodoo on March 29, 2014, 12:09:51 AM
Geez, I don't want, a powder coating setup, i neeeed a powder coating rig, right now, immediately. ;D You yanks are really spoilt for choice,(for most things) ;) there's nothing cheap for sale here in Oz. I was looking yesterday and the cheapest rig i could find was near $600 :o, but i do have the compressor, toaster oven and a stepdown transformer already, so if anyone has a setup for sale or knows of a good deal going, let us know, thanks, Matt.
Hmm...that sounds like an rip off! I got my gun for about $70 shipped on eBay. The basic Eastwood gun like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Eastwood-Hotcoat-Powder-Coat-Powder-Coating-Gun-/360873624032?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item5405be81e0&vxp=mtr
Since you have all the stuff already, all you really need is the gun, powder, and some grounding wire. I would recommend getting a cheap moisture trap to put inline with the gun. I also have a cheap air regulator on it as well. The gun only needs like 5psi to work. It's nice having the regulator inline so I can use the gun, and quickly switch to an air gun (at full pressure) to "clean" the gun by blowing the powder off it. A lot of times, I will just "feather" the trigger on the powder gun because you don't need a lot of pressure at all. Even the cheapest crappiest compressor will work just fine.
Just to illustrate using multiple colors -- here's a vibe pedal I did with four coats of powder. First I applied the black chrome on the bottom half, cooled it, taped it off with high-temp masking tape and then shot dormant burgundy base coat on top. I let the dormant burgundy heat up slightly then pulled it from the oven to cool. I removed the tape and cured the dormant burgundy base coat. After that cooled I masked off the beltline stripe, shot that with bright red, cured that and then cooled. Final coat was clear over the entire box -- it activated the dormant burgundy and did a nice job of smoothing everything out. You can't even feel the stripe with your fingernail.
Lots of good info and technique tips here -- http://www.powder365.com/forum/ (http://www.powder365.com/forum/) -- a lot of those guys are hardcore pros but there's a lot of good information to be gleaned over there. Check out the CUSTOMER PICTURES section to see some of the gorgeous work these guys can do.
(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc18/Fastocker/Vibe%20Pedals/BC-Vibe-004.jpg)
Hey Ben, the 600 dollar ones, were the cheapest i could find in Australia, 240v and all. I have seen the cheapies that are in the link you posted, but they won't post to OZ and the ones that do want a fortune to do so. :'(
Quote from: hoodoo on March 29, 2014, 01:57:07 AM
Hey Ben, the 600 dollar ones, were the cheapest i could find in Australia, 240v and all. I have seen the cheapies that are in the link you posted, but they won't post to OZ and the ones that do want a fortune to do so. :'(
Damn dude, I would offer to ship you one but the 110v may be a problem..pretty sure they are not switching but I can check tmro.
Quote from: Fastocker on March 29, 2014, 01:40:41 AM
Just to illustrate using multiple colors -- here's a vibe pedal I did with four coats of powder. First I applied the black chrome on the bottom half, cooled it, taped it off with high-temp masking tape and then shot dormant burgundy base coat on top. I let the dormant burgundy heat up slightly then pulled it from the oven to cool. I removed the tape and cured the dormant burgundy base coat. After that cooled I masked off the beltline stripe, shot that with bright red, cured that and then cooled. Final coat was clear over the entire box -- it activated the dormant burgundy and did a nice job of smoothing everything out. You can't even feel the stripe with your fingernail.
Lots of good info and technique tips here -- http://www.powder365.com/forum/ (http://www.powder365.com/forum/) -- a lot of those guys are hardcore pros but there's a lot of good information to be gleaned over there. Check out the CUSTOMER PICTURES section to see some of the gorgeous work these guys can do.
Super smooth! Curious how high did you let the temp get to? Did you let the burgundy flow or just warm?