UPDATE:
BUILD DOCUMENT: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A7INECxk7Rbwl47o64qhp7koKuqXpupU/view?usp=sharing
SCHEMATIC: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MhTZEpOqMkA0MQJ3cPFBNJ45Y3ySNcCh/view?usp=sharing
BOSS CE1...'King of Chorus' which is based on the Retro Sonic Chorus
Prototype build
Hopefully I will get around to putting it together in a shiny new enclosure all properly complete including a demo.
(https://s10.postimg.org/9zrlrzy5x/image.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/9zrlrzy5x/)
(https://s10.postimg.org/wbpelekf9/image.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/wbpelekf9/)
(https://s10.postimg.org/i59nq61ud/image.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/i59nq61ud/)
(https://s10.postimg.org/yt15snow5/image.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/yt15snow5/)
did you make any improvements for use with guitar?
Wohaa! Looks great! A prototype build. Will there be a board available somewhere?
Totally in on a PCB when they are available!
(now to source a MN3002 :o)
It's an exact copy of the retro sonic chorus which works well with guitar. just gotta sort out the stereo bit and also have a poke around with a scope to properly adjust the bbd output trim pot.
I would also need to make an adjustment so people can source their own dc-dc module, mine is a +/-14v(Runs from your regular 9V. ), same as the retro chorus. Leave it with me and I will work on these issues.
Cool project. Would also be down for a PCB if you make them available in the future. Thanks for sharing!
This is awesome. I think this is the first CE1 build I've seen.
This was by FAR the coolest pedal I ever owned and have been kicking myself ever since I sold it a bazillion years ago. This is VERY exciting indeed. I've heard stuff that was close but never duplicated.
Don't worry if you can't get an MN3002, Im going to make an expansion board to accommodate the TDA1022, another 512 stage BBD which I've tested and works just as good PLUS I'm also going to try get an MN3007 to work with a bit of tinkering. :)
Quote from: drog_trog on March 16, 2018, 09:58:56 AM
Don't worry if you can't get an MN3002, Im going to make an expansion board to accommodate the TDA1022, another 512 stage BBD which I've tested and works just as good PLUS I'm also going to try get an MN3007 to work with a bit of tinkering. :)
Wonder if it would work with a slightly re-wired mn3001 (since I can lay hands on the NTE version of that thing....)
Nice! I'm down for one when you get them sorted.
Can you guys do some digging for me. We want a cheap DC-DC converter 2W that is easy to source. Ideally less than $10 in a SIP-Package. Output to be ±15 VDC or ±14 VDC ideally. these are the specs of the 1 im using now.
(https://s10.postimg.org/7exz3x6t1/image.png) (https://postimg.org/image/7exz3x6t1/)
Quote from: drog_trog on March 16, 2018, 02:52:18 PM
Can you guys do some digging for me. We want a cheap DC-DC converter 2W that is easy to source. Ideally less than $10 in a SIP-Package. Output to be ±15 VDC or ±14 VDC ideally. these are the specs of the 1 im using now.
That is a remarkably frustrating set of specs.
Only +/-14V converter I can find has a 5V input and a 1W max rating. Bleh. Of the 2W 15V'ers, the cheapest I can find with a 9V input is 14$.
I shall keep digging!
Looking at some other folks who have cloned it, is appears others have gotten away with a combination of charge pumps, inverters, and regulators to get the voltages they needed.
(https://i.imgur.com/2Ixt3Iu.png)
Two watts? :o
How much current does this thing draw?
i would just drop +-15V and drop it with diodes.
Quote from: midwayfair on March 17, 2018, 03:42:53 AM
Two watts? :o
How much current does this thing draw?
i would just drop +-15V and drop it with diodes.
I know the original model actually had a 3W requirement listed per Boss's documentation, BUT it also ran on a wall socket plug, had a big brick of a transformer in it, and dumps 18V AC across a bridge rectifier. The circuit itself just has a handful of op-amps and transistors to feed, plus the BBD. Doesn't even have a clock chip, uses descrete components there.
Can't find anything actually listing a current draw for the pedal though, annoyingly. :-\
Quote from: somnif on March 17, 2018, 03:59:45 AM
Can't find anything actually listing a current draw for the pedal though, annoyingly. :-\
Does your meter have a current function?
Scruffie would probably know, but I'm guessing somewhere around 20-30mA for the whole pedal, can probably figure out wattage from there.
Quote from: midwayfair on March 17, 2018, 04:30:26 AM
Quote from: somnif on March 17, 2018, 03:59:45 AM
Can't find anything actually listing a current draw for the pedal though, annoyingly. :-\
Does your meter have a current function?
Scruffie would probably know, but I'm guessing somewhere around 20-30mA for the whole pedal, can probably figure out wattage from there.
Oh I don't have access to a unit, I just looked up a service manual when I was digging for a schematic the other day. Saw a unit in a shop once, though..... they wanted the better part of a grand for the thing.
The owners manual: https://reverb.com/download/147
I agree that I would expect a draw in the ~20ish mA range, given the schematic. But who knows! Maybe the wattage was listed for a reason I can't see, I'm a semi-coherent ape when it comes to electrical engineering.
Ordered two TDA1022s yesterday, hehe.
I also don't get why per example a Road Rage shouldn't be able to do the job delivering a 15v output from a 9v input.
Quote from: midwayfair on March 17, 2018, 03:42:53 AM
Two watts? :o
How much current does this thing draw?
i would just drop +-15V and drop it with diodes.
I can't remember the current draw I will check next time I've got it out. Yes the dc converter used in the retro sonic chorus is 2W, I thought it was low when I found that out as I would have thought it had been 3W. Plus the retro sonic chorus actually uses 1/8W resistors, I've managed to find space for the 1/4W so I've just kept them at that and it's what most of us use. Yea I was going to drop it with diodes.
Quote from: midwayfair on March 17, 2018, 04:30:26 AM
Quote from: somnif on March 17, 2018, 03:59:45 AM
Can't find anything actually listing a current draw for the pedal though, annoyingly. :-\
Does your meter have a current function?
Scruffie would probably know, but I'm guessing somewhere around 20-30mA for the whole pedal, can probably figure out wattage from there.
One of the few vintage units i've never had my hands on or enough interest to breadboard but I would suspect 20-30mA is about right.
Personally rather than struggle through all these powering and BBD availability issues i'd just redesign the thing to run off single supply 15V, make it a little more guitar friendly and use the TDA1022 exclusively, not like we need 28V of headroom for guitar or anything.
Quote from: kaeisy on March 17, 2018, 09:00:35 AM
Ordered two TDA1022s yesterday, hehe.
I also don't get why per example a Road Rage shouldn't be able to do the job delivering a 15v output from a 9v input.
Yea it can be done with charge pump but space is the issue, maybe do 2 boards and connect them together via pins(like Aions blueshift does)
I've never seen that pedal. Wonder if there are any youtubers with one. Hmm. I'd love to build one. Count me in for a PCB if/when available..
Quote from: blearyeyes on March 19, 2018, 03:12:17 AM
I've never seen that pedal. Wonder if there are any youtubers with one. Hmm. I'd love to build one. Count me in for a PCB if/when available..
Its got a lovely tone, but the tricky thing is, the control scheme is kinda limited. In chorus mode you get 1 knob to twiddle, "Intensity", which is sort of a mix of rate and depth. In vibrato you get 2 separate controls, but it cuts most of the dry signal out so you get more warble, less wetness. Still chorus-y, but a bit limited.
In tone is very similar to the CE-2, but perhaps a bit "richer", and honestly that could have come down to input and output filtering to my ears.
(Then again my favorite chorus is my A/DA flanger, so maybe I'm just weird)
Thanks somnif.
https://youtu.be/qUpjDAJ-nEY
That Pedal Show. Around the middle of the video is the CE-1 CE-2 And the VFE Choral Reef. Wish they spent more time on the Choral Reef... gotta build the one I have...
If anyone wants to hear a comparison. CE-1 sounds great.
Hope to see chorus popular again. Well it’s popular in Blearyland!
Quote from: somnif on March 19, 2018, 03:32:02 AM
Quote from: blearyeyes on March 19, 2018, 03:12:17 AM
I've never seen that pedal. Wonder if there are any youtubers with one. Hmm. I'd love to build one. Count me in for a PCB if/when available..
Its got a lovely tone, but the tricky thing is, the control scheme is kinda limited. In chorus mode you get 1 knob to twiddle, "Intensity", which is sort of a mix of rate and depth. In vibrato you get 2 separate controls, but it cuts most of the dry signal out so you get more warble, less wetness. Still chorus-y, but a bit limited.
In tone is very similar to the CE-2, but perhaps a bit "richer", and honestly that could have come down to input and output filtering to my ears.
(Then again my favorite chorus is my A/DA flanger, so maybe I'm just weird)
This ce1 project can also be modded to include a depth knob for the chorus channel, I think I may add this as an option to the final board.
The single knob control is kinda cool. But adding a depth control was the first thing I thought about. Maybe a fine tune depth control kinda thing.
If you’re gonna use the TDA1022 I’ll have to scrounge a few up.
So here is the score, I have 4 boards left.
They work with the MN3002 and will need the required dc converter module.
it works great in mono, however I am having trouble getting the stereo to work. I cannot spend any more time on debugging the issue so if 4 other guys can build it and put their knowledge into it and get the stereo working then that would be great. I'm sure its only something very small that's causing the issue, I've tried my best guys, like I said, mono works brilliantly and it sounds really cool.
If you feel like you could dive into this then let me know.
These board I have left will be just $12 plus $6.50 for the DC Converter plus shipping(about $4.50 Worldwide) You will have to source your own MN3002 tho.
as tempting as this is, its a bit much $$ for me to maybe be the first one to get it working. hope you get it figured out.
I am still interested in purchasing a board, but have no MN3002, just a TDA1022. You said you tested the TDA1022 with good results and wanted to make an expansion board. Do you have that or if not, can you give some information about making one, perhaps on perfboard? And would you send a schematic, parts list or even a build document to the ones to buy a prototype board?
Quote from: kaeisy on March 29, 2018, 08:18:40 AM
I am still interested in purchasing a board, but have no MN3002, just a TDA1022. You said you tested the TDA1022 with good results and wanted to make an expansion board. Do you have that or if not, can you give some information about making one, perhaps on perfboard? And would you send a schematic, parts list or even a build document to the ones to buy a prototype board?
Yea for I will make a board so you can use the TDA1022 no problem if you dont mind waiting a little longer, I can make it so that you attach it by header pins. i will put together a quick BOM, shopping list and schematic soon.
PM'd.
UPDATE:
There will be an MN3002 and a TDA1022P version PCB.(mono versions until this stereo issue is sorted)
The MN3002 is a DIP-14 chip
The TDA1022 is a DIP-16 chip
Both are 512 stage chips and IMO both sound the same
The TDA1022 will be easier to source.
UK site: https://www.cricklewoodelectronics.com/TDA1022.html
You're just killing me here. I really don't need another project but the original sounded so good that it was worth eating up 2 of 4 tracks on a Teac back in the day just to get the sound. For a cool recorded version of the sound just google the band Max Webster and the tune "Waterline". It's all over the first bit of the tune.
Screw it, if you have any left I'll take one. Might take me a while to build it up but between this and the Ambika project I've left all common sense in the ditch :-)
I'm so excited...
I'm interested if you are getting some (or have some)
Thanks
Quote from: gordo on March 31, 2018, 03:18:30 AM
You're just killing me here. I really don't need another project but the original sounded so good that it was worth eating up 2 of 4 tracks on a Teac back in the day just to get the sound. For a cool recorded version of the sound just google the band Max Webster and the tune "Waterline". It's all over the first bit of the tune.
Screw it, if you have any left I'll take one. Might take me a while to build it up but between this and the Ambika project I've left all common sense in the ditch :-)
I'm so excited...
Hmm.. Ambika! Noooo! It is too big! But I want it!
So many projects and so little time, well plenty of time but so few brain cells left....
Quote from: Jules on March 31, 2018, 07:07:07 AM
I'm interested if you are getting some (or have some)
Thanks
same
Some good interest in this project, for those who want it please send me a PM, put in subject 'CE1-MN3002 or CE1-TDA1022' Your location and I can sort out paypal with you.
A build document is close to being finished now.
This is what i thought got the stereo working.
(https://s7.postimg.cc/tyy4tsyw7/STEREO.png) (https://postimg.cc/image/tyy4tsyw7/)
its a 4 pin jack socket which when you insert a cable the grey and red pins connect together(switched socket I think)
This is how the retro sonic chorus is wired
There are pads on my PCB at the connection points(marked L+R)
I tried this and just got normal un-chorused signal-i thought the JFET was meant to mix the chorus into the stereo signal. Maybe im missing something, i dont know.
Your red wire is coming from the J-FET control voltage in that, if you look at the CE-1 schematic the second output is just a dry output directly from the 470nF capacitor (C32 in your schematic) with a divider after it to match it to the mixed level.
I don't understand why you've removed the wet signal FET control and left in the dry signal one?
Anyway, i'll take a board and DC converter set.
Edit: The 'stereo' output uses a switched jack too connected to the 'mono' output so that with just the mono connected a mix is provided, when something is connected to the stereo jack one provides delay only signal and the other dry.
I've just been going through my old notes and I remember now, the stereo channel is dry out so the board is 100% complete.
I'm waiting on more boards to come in, should be next week.
Pre order your boards now...until the end of the month they're just $12 then they will be a standard price of $15
Scruffie, do you know the best place to buy the stereo switched sockets?
Quote from: drog_trog on April 21, 2018, 09:22:17 AM
Scruffie, do you know the best place to buy the stereo switched sockets?
You're in the UK, correct?
Bitsbox carry some, you want Mono Switched, this is definitely right but out of stock https://www.bitsbox.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=225_226_294&products_id=3030
They carry some other switched mono jacks they call 'open' but I think that's referring to the style of jack rather than the switching.
yea UK, ok cool, the only 1 i have is this 1
(https://s31.postimg.cc/ff0n7eiw7/20180421_110829.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ff0n7eiw7/)
(https://s31.postimg.cc/jbdz3eblj/20180421_110842.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/jbdz3eblj/)
(https://s31.postimg.cc/ecqgovfif/20180421_110904.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ecqgovfif/)
I assume that's a stereo switched which would be 3S on this datasheet https://www.bitsbox.co.uk/data/connectors/miv.pdf rather than the 2S you want.
Should be usable, you just have to work out which connection is which.
It will be a great contribution to this expansion with TDA1022 or MN3007, to build a boss ce-1 clone and these Chinese mn3002 chips do not work right, I am kind enough to test this. ;D
yea
http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=27815.0
Hello, are all the wires connected? Is there another version of build document ?
I am really interested in this. Is it a different board for the TDA version or is there a daughterboard to convert it please?
Different board for each bbd.pm me
Update: I do have boards but no DC converters left, due to a cash flow situation I cant order any more for a while. I will post sometime later on in the year when more are in stock.
TDA1022P
125BB
Mod: Stomp switches are on solder side of the board which led to confusion on my part when wiring the I/O jacks. Therefore, the I/O are on on opposite sides from a normal pedal. It actually makes it fit my board a little better in a strange way...
Sounds excellent! One small problem... weird LFO? squeally noise. Not too loud, though. Dead silent when bypassed.
https://imgur.com/u1SuUYc (https://imgur.com/u1SuUYc)
https://imgur.com/SqL4nZZ (https://imgur.com/SqL4nZZ)
Pedal art stolen from Stacey Rozich. Color laser paper/polyacrylic transfer.
Cool build. Did you substitute any part?
Nope. I didn't (intentionally) deviate from your BOM. Very nice project. Thanks for making this happen! My only very minor suggestion that would make the end user's job a bit easier would be to find a way to add 9mm board mounted pots to a revised PCB. It's a bit tricky to get the 16mm lug pots wired and into the enclosure. The stereo jack is a beast, so I moved one of the pots to the middle of the enclosure. Not sure if this made it any easier, but I was able to get everything together in the end.
i just built my TDA1022P version yesterday. the bypass & volume control works as well as the LED's rate flashing with the rate pot, but i have absolutely NO chorus effect. I've checked and re-checked everything but to no avail. i had really high hopes for this one.
(http://johnkvintageguitars.homestead.com/Effects/others/CE1/CE-1_clone_PCB.jpg)
The PCB is okay, I built the TDA1022 version, too. Worked first time and sounds great!
yeah, i'm sure that it is okay. i'm just trying to figure out why mine's not chorusing/vibrato-ing.
if you could be so kind to post your voltages (on the chips for a start) maybe i can get mine working properly.
with a 9 volt benchtop power supply, i am getting +13.4 volts on pin 8 of the TL072's and LM 1458 and -13.4 volts on pin 4. i'm also getting -13.4 volts on pin 9 of the TDA1022P.
does anyone that successfully built the TDA1022P version have some voltage readings that they'd be willing to share?
Sorry, I had an issue yesterday while putting everything in a new enclosure. As soon as I have figured that out I can post some voltages.
Have you tried to use an audioprobe?
that would be great.
so far i've just measured voltages. i plan to put it on a scope & a signal generator tomorrow.
I fear I fried my dc-dc-converter :'(. drog_trog, where did you source these?
Sorry, no voltage measuring at the moment...
Bummer! i hope you can get it sorted.
Quote from: johnk on June 19, 2018, 05:42:33 PM
Bummer! i hope you can get it sorted.
Did you find out what went wrong johnk?
nope. still no chorus effect.
Quote from: johnk on July 19, 2018, 11:47:15 PM
nope. still no chorus effect.
Maybe a defective BBD?
maybe, but i bought it from Smallbear and they're always reliable.
hi John, sorry been real busy, if your willing to pay postage both ways I can take a look at it if you send it me.
thanks for the offer. i'll probably do that since it's just sitting here collecting dust.
Update: I have ordered 10 more PCB's for the TDA1022 chip, if you want one please PM me.
$15 plus $4.50 worldwide postage
Free UK post
Looking at the first post in the link, is this the correct way to do the depth mod?
https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=117279.0
Wouldn't this change the voltage since the depth pot 8k2 resistor forms a voltage divider from 14V+? To keep the ratio I guess 8k2 should be halfed as well but I'm not sure how this affects the rest of the Circuit.
If I wanted an effect level pot, should I just wire it in series with the 22k(R57 in your schematic)? To control the wet level.
/Nicklas
Yes, i have done a bit of experimenting and managed to try this mod exactly as shown in that post and it's really cool. So when the mod is done and you just want to use the intensity knob as original just leave the new depth pot turned fully CW.
As to the other part of your question, do you mean a blend pot to mix wet/dry?
Just wanted to say that I got my pcb today. Looks very good and I can't wait to get started on it. I will also be doing the depth mod for sure.
Thanks, I'll use that depth pot mod then. Yes I was thinking of a wet blend. I'm not sure how useful it would be though. I did it on my ce2 but actually usually set it in the same position.
ye, i seem to recall it being used in the CS9 that another member did (Agua Net Chorus) i think it was a C250k pot. Maybe its worth some experimenting, if you wanted to riff using an effect and just wanted a hint of chorus on top that would be good.
You might try something like this:
https://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2012/01/mini-blend-jfet.html (https://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2012/01/mini-blend-jfet.html)
It's small enough that you could probably stuff it in. I'm planning on using a 1590xx enclosure on mine so I think I would have plenty of room if I did that.
So this video of That Pedal Show collaborating with TC Electronic on the Boss CE1 was just posted a couple days ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbjWvN9nGAk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbjWvN9nGAk)
Dan's CE1 sounds great and now I feel I have to put the High/Low switch in. Stuffing that in this clone would make the High side non-true bypass while leaving the Low true bypass.
Also, his vibrato side is messed up and disconnected from the LFO so it creates more of a Boss Dimension D/C or mild flanger effect which is very cool.
I came up with a quick vero layout for doing the High/Low switch. I'm not very good at them but I think this one came out alright.
To make the both the Hi / Low true bypass, you could wire the blue wire (input to the hi/Lo switch) and the green wire (hi/Lo switch output to KOC board input) to the C1 pads (blue to the pad closest to the switch, green to the other). You would have to solder C1 in series with the switch output green wire.
Mr Relish
I would mod your vero so the switch green wire went to the vero, where C1 would be mounted in series, then another wire after C1 went from the vero to the KOC board second C1 pad. Much neater.
Mr Relish
Yes I'm sure it could be modded to be true bypass, but if you watch the video where he demos the high/low switch, the high side acts as an overdrive. He explained that much like the Echoplex EP3 preamp, people would use the drive sound of the effect without using the chorus/echo effect at all. Doing it as a stomp switch would be ideal.
On the original Boss CE-1 there is also an op-amp(IC-1) after the transistor high/low switch(Q1 circuit),i believe it also affects clipping.
QuoteOn the original Boss CE-1 there is also an op-amp(IC-1) after the transistor high/low switch(Q1 circuit),i believe it also affects clipping.
Isn't there one on this circuit, or am I missing something?
(Two actually, one is a unity gain buffer).
Mr Relish
This should be simple, but I can't understand which wire goes to what on the stereo switch out. Could anybody help? I've drawn a doodle to show you as reference.
For anyone interested, at the time of writing, this is an untested Ch/V LED (not bypass LED) mod idea.
I finally got around to wiring up my attempt at this chorus.
I haven't even plugged a guitar in yet, but before I did put it aside (was too tired to continue) I connected 9v to at least check the LED's were working. They were.
As the Ch/V LED was always on, even in bypass mode, I had a quick look into how to sort that out (because admittedly pedals that do that drive me nuts) & so it's why I had this idea:
Going by the schematic, B1/B2/B3 of the Ch/V 3PDT don't appear to be used by anything in the circuit.
So the idea is to use a 3pin dual color LED, which not only swaps color depending on Ch or V mode (so the user knows what mode it's in at a glance), but stops flashing altogether in bypass mode.
First to keep that flashing LED off in bypass mode (if you choose to do so). It looks like pulling out the Ch/V LED's negative wire from the PCB & reconnecting it to A1 of the bypass 3PDT should do the trick. Simple as that.
If you also wanted a dual color LED, that wire from A1 of the bypass 3PDT would then go from that bypass A1 to the longest lead (common, the middle one) of a 3pin LED.
Then instead of the positive Ch/V LED wire going straight to the LED from the PCB, connect that wire from where it is on the PCB to B2 of the Ch/V 3PDT. The remaining 2 leads of a 3pin LED (both positives for their respective colors) should then go to B1 & B3 of the Ch/V 3PDT.
Whatever color dual LED you use or what color you want representing chorus mode or V mode is up to you, red/blue, blue/red, red/green etc.
As I said, I'm just too tired to persist with it for the moment, so I'll hopefully confirm over the next few days (or week) when I get back around to testing this idea out. Not to mention any trimmers, possible troubleshooting etc. Hell no, not now, must eat & sleeeep....
Anyone cluey enough can probably verify it at a glance anyway.
Just adding to my previous post.
I haven't worked on mine again yet, but I remembered it's difficult (or impossible) to fit those 3pin dual-color LED's in those common chrome bezels many of us use, so I thought I should mention that. Most (if not all) only have 2 holes in the plastic holders that come with them, especially the 3mm ones. Even if they had 3 holes, the legs of 3-pin LED's stick out sideways near the top & wont push in. I know many of the larger 10mm bezels have the holders for 3-pins, but not so sure about 5mm. I'm sure any could be used without bezels, I just prefer the LED's locked in place & also to match my other humble builds.
I've already drilled & installed 2 x 3mm bezels, one on either side near the stomp switches, for mode & bypass, so as a simple workaround for mine, as well as an easier approach to anyone that does it later, I'll just use those 2 side LED's to show the mode instead of a single dual-color LED.
That means 2 negative wires from A1 of the bypass 3PDT to the 2 separate LED's instead. Then the 2 positive wires from those 2 LED's to the Ch/V 3PDT (B1 & B3 respectively). B2 to the Ch/v positive LED pad on the PCB as described above in previous post.
For the bypass LED, the simple solution would be to drill a 3rd LED hole for a 3rd 2pin LED. Well, at least they'll all fit the various bezels around...
Hopefully the above helps others do theirs better the first time around or those that have finished theirs can go back & do it too. It'll still look OK with 3 LED's, so I'll just put the 3rd for bypass in the middle somewhere, maybe use a 5mm instead of 3mm like the other 2. Best of all no flashing in bypass mode & the rate LED becomes a mode indicator as well. Maybe increase the rate LED's CLR resistor from 10k to 15k to tone done the brightness of it a little. It's extra noticeable because it flashes.
Another day, better rested...so I did the LED mod & it does work. However, after 20 seconds or so the Recon power module failed out of the blue. It wasn't related to the mod because I only moved the LED ground from the 'always on' point of the PCB to an existing ground point which is on the bypass switch. Also the positives of the LED's & their +v from the PCB were just moved to 3 unused lugs of the mode switch, so all unrelated.
Anyway, I was only running off a 9v battery for testing purposes, so maybe it was draining too much current, especially if it had dropped far enough below 9v (it wasn't a brand new one, might've sagged down to 6 or 7v by now). When the replacement Recon turns up I'll use an adapter instead & if it does it again then there's some troubleshooting ahead before powering it up again.
There's no visible shorts or anything like that, but with 2 extra mini pcb's in there taking power (hi/lo switch mod and blender) my guess is too much current drain & possibly too much pressure on the Recon module. It's specs say the input voltage range is 10.8 to 13.2V DC. My local retailer puts it at 9 to 18v, so I must've been at absolute minimum at best with a battery, which probably wouldn't be good....as I discovered. :)
It's not a major drama, I've already taken the module out as I wait on the mail, it's just disappointing I didn't get as far as plugging a guitar in & I wasn't able to verify the other mods today. But, at least the LED's, the LFO & the rate knobs are confirmed working. :)
At the time of writing, it's nearly a week since I ordered another Recom RD-1215D power module. It's looking like it wont show up in the mail until next week. When I get it, apart from using a power adapter instead of a battery, I'll temporarily disconnect the 2 small mod PCB's & get the main PCB going first.
The Hi/low switch mod runs off the same 14v voltage as the main PCB, which I wired to the positive side of C12 based on the schematic.
The Blender PCB (from pedalparts uk) might be an issue in this case because it runs off 9v, not 14v. I had that connected straight from the DC jack, bypassing the Recom & main PCB altogether. So I've developed a concern (or a doubt) that instead of it being OK to do that, it may have added an extra 9v to the main 14v or caused another problem that way.
They're great Blender PCB's though, I've used them in a few other modulation's, but ones that run at 9v, so no potential voltage conflict previously. They should be fine to run at the same 14v as the main CE1 PCB, as the only voltage sensitive part on it, a 2n5952, can handle up to 25v. So after I get the main PCB going, I'll run the Blender off 14v as well this time around.
Going off topic for a moment, in the meantime, I grabbed a couple of pedals I'd built a while ago (from a pile of awaiting calibration/waiting to be fixed). A VFE Phaser bought from Madbean & a Carlin Compressor.
The Phaser just needed a trimpot adjustment done by ear, so it's done. I like it. It's probably on the milder end of the phaser spectrum, but that means it's actually usable. There's quite a few settings & different stages compared to the old one-knobbers & can even get a bit chunky sounding if that's your thing. There's nothing like the Doppleganger though, but that's another story...
The Carlin Compressor is one I hadn't heard before, so I didn't know what I was in for. When I quickly tested it with a guitar months ago, all I got was distortion & not a usable one, so that's why it was put aside. Going back to it now, it's meant to be a distortion with a sustain knob. It did require a trimmer adjustment so the dist knob goes from mild overdrive to more saturated distortion. Depending on how the trimmer is set, the sustain can be a bit uneven & start making the whole thing sound spatty or pulsey (unusable), but I got it as good as I could & it is what it is. The sustain is quite long, but I'm still undecided on the gain aspect, so I might need another go at the trimpot later or to see how it pairs with another dirt box or something.
Hopefully I'll get the CE1 sorted next week & report back on the mods.
Over a week since last CE1 update, so just a quick one. The replacement Recom has turned up so I'll turn my focus back to sorting out my CE1 in the coming days.
I've been doing a complete rebuild of another golden oldie this week, Dod Flanger 640. I used to be able to get a great chorus out of that one too, as well as strong jet to mild flangeing. So far I've replaced everything but the resistors, also got rid of the AC power cable & built a DC power supply for it. Those DC jacks fit the former AC hole perfectly. Had to replace the AC rocker switch (with internal light) with the DC version from the same manufacturer (or the light wouldn't work). Instead of using that rocker light to indicate on/off AC power, might use it for wet/bypass indicator instead, saves drilling the original enclosure & more useful that way.
Everything will be the same without the AC cable & without going through that noisy old internal transformer (spikey SAD1024 killers they were). Most of the old capacitors still tested OK, but they're all replaced regardless considering they're approx 40yrs old.
A ceramic capacitor these days can be as small as a match head, but one they used then was a higher voltage one the size of a small coin. I only mention it because it literally squished between my fingers like a sticky lollie that was lost in the back of the 2nd drawer for years, I've never seen a part so age-weary it disintegrated like that before.
Also got a few dirt boxes out of the way from my pile of "to do laters" that I'd been putting off.
A Tonebender Mk3, using AC125 transistors, also put the internal trimmer as an extra 4th knob as it added more variety & was wasted otherwise.
Then a Nobels ODR1 (overdrive) from an Aion PCB.
Then a Guv'nor (distortion).
Those 3 only had minor things preventing them working first go, so didn't take me long to finally get them running. All sounded OK too, I'm usually fussy with dirt boxes, most can sound crap to me.
Apart from that there were a couple of VFE builds. They both had the same problem I've had with 5 out of 6 VFE builds. The switching boards weren't working. Probably just bad luck with relays, but the actual main PCB's sound great when working though.
Anyway, I just have to wire up the freshened Dod 640 PCB over the next day or so & pop in the fresh IC's, shouldn't take long, fingers crossed. Then back to the CE1 after that...
More modulation banter after another weekend...
I got the Dod Flanger 640 finished. It's successfully converted to DC jack, rocker power switch now an identical DC model that serves as effect on indicator, true bypass, all old parts apart from resistors replaced, so it's basically finished.
One minor prob, audio probing the signal stopped at the input pins of the SAD1024. I have 3 of those chips, 2 new & one that was tested working before being mailed to me, so the BBD isn't the problem...
In the 80's the SAD1024 used to fail every year or 2 in it, so I'd just go buy another for $10 & it worked as good as new. Last time it happened, replacing the SAD1024 didn't get it to fire up, tried a few more new ones, still no luck, so I replaced the other 3 IC's in there as well before I gave up & it went into storage ever since. What I think happened/what I think the problem likely is, would be I think I replaced the original cd4013ae with a cd4013be at the time. It's all in the suffix. I had similar issues last year getting the madbean Electric Mistress to fire up as well, which turned out that the cd4049 was the difference of it working or not depending on the chips suffix being "be" or "ube". Also in that one the same problem happens with the LM311 chip. The "n" or "p" suffix on those has to be the correct one too or it wont work.
So, I've got some cd4013ae's on the way from the UK which should hopefully do the trick.
Looking at the data sheets, there are some differences between the "ae" & "be" version 4013's, same pinout & function, but propagation delay is 45ns on "be" and 350ns on "ae". That's the first potential problem. Seems to be differences at clock input frequency at different voltages & other subtle differences between the 2 chips. I think I've seen enough without checking max frequency, load capacitance etc. It only takes one minor change to throw the whole circuit out of wack, as evident with the Mistress circuit, so it's looking like the 4013 chip variant has been the problem all along. At least now that's sorted I can get back to the CE1 & get that one going....
More than another week later, I've finally got around to looking at my non working CE1 again.
I stripped it back to bare bones, took out the 2 mini mod PCB's (for blend & hi/low toggle), disconnected the stereo out jack & then socketed in a new Recom power module.
The bypass LED was still working but the flashing rate LED/s weren't. A quick voltage check on those told me they were getting the correct fluctuating voltage, so considering it's a situation where the original power module burnt out (& stunk me out) a few weeks ago, it's looking like it probably caused a power surge & wiped a few things out with it.
I'll have to continue later by checking the IC's in my IC tester, possibly replacing all the transistors etc. I'll get there eventually, it's just been quiet in the CE1 thread so I threw a post in for those watching it.
I did plug a guitar in this time, got no wet signal through it, but was getting a ticking noise in one of the modes (chorus or vibrato) whose ticking noise rate was adjustable by the speed pot, so at least some of it is working. The Recom wasn't overheating this time around either, nor did anything else then or now, but it definitely looks like there will be a few parts to replace when I determine which ones exactly. I'll have any replacement parts needed on hand, so no worries there.
I hope Skyled had better luck first go, his list of mods was much more complex than mine. :)
I had another quick look at it before calling it a day. All the op-amps tested OK. Turns out there was nothing wrong with the rate LED/s either, they just weren't working because the ground lug on the bypass 3pdt was no longer happening for some yet to be determined reason. Hopefully my fears of a surge when the power module failed aren't likely now though.
So, for now, I moved the rate LED ground back to the main PCB to get it going (even though it keeps flashing in bypass mode from there). There's still an issue either with the bypass 3pdt possibly being faulty or something elsewhere causing a problem with that ground lug. The other odd thing with the rate LED is it's only flashing in vibrato mode now & permanently on in chorus mode.
One other serious thing I discovered was in effect mode the output jack is shorted.
Far out, I've made dozens of effects, but I haven't borked one this bad before, I'll have to give myself an uppercut.
Definitely a few things for me to work through later.
Next time I look at it I'll disconnect the middle lug in that row of the bypass 3pdt & check it's switching properly & go from there, but it sounds like that will be the least of my worries. I'm not even at the audio probe stage yet...
Got back to debugging this misfiring CE1 today.
I first spotted & cleaned up a short on the PCB that seemed to fix any issues of the bypass 3pdt. To be 100% sure there wasn't a secondary problem with the bypass 3pdt I replaced it.
The output jack was no longer shorting when the effect was on by then.
Brilliant, it was audio probe time. Signal made it to the BBD input but not the output of it, so I dropped in a new one & it worked, signal to the output jack.
The rate LED's were flashing for both vibrato & chorus mode again, not just vibrato mode as it was when I last looked at this thing a couple of days ago.
At least by the time I called it a day today, I had a guitar in & hearing chorus.
However, there's still a few issues to sort out before I can move onto reintroducing the stereo out jack & any mods one by one.
Firstly there's a pulsing hum present in both chorus or vibrato mode. Also, not really getting a vibrato mode.
The Level pot has a scratchy weirdness to it, but works. But for a new one doesn't seem right.
And the Recom power module was starting to get a bit warm after a while, which may or may not be normal.
I'll have a think about these last few things for a while & then get back to it when I can.
In addressing the issues with my CE1...
Replaced the Level pot, as it was sounding scratchy & weird when turning it.
Chorus mode was working, not Vibrato, so using the schematic, following the route from the Ch/Vib 3pdt I replaced C35,C36,D13,D14 & put in a new LM1458.
There was a loud pulsing hum in both Ch or Vib modes, so considering I already replaced the Recom, I replaced whatever else was in the power supply section, which was C7,C11,C12,C16,C17, also the 3 diodes, D1,D2 & D6.
Powered it up & this is the story. Level pot is no longer sounding abnormal when turned. The loud pulsing hum in either mode is gone, but a lower volume constant hum is present in both modes.
And here's the bummer, after all that messing about, the MN3002 chip seems to have died, no longer getting Chorus & audio probe is now stopping at the MN3002 input pins. As I don't have another MN3002, I'm unable to continue working on this one indefinitely.
Someone on Ebay back in September advertised 100 x MN3002's, in lots of 10 for $100, but one buyer came along & bought them all for $1000. The only other MN3002's on Ebay (at the time of writing) are not Panasonic BBD's. Apparently (from reading around the web) there's a new chip called MN3002 that has an entirely different function. On top of that there's bound to be fake Panasonics & remarked chips around as well.
As for the Dod Flanger 640, some vintage RCA brand CD4013AE chips turned up. They tested OK in my IC tester, so I decided to replace the 4 old pots in the 640 while I was at it. They were 3x D100k & 1x D500k. I just used 3x B100k & 1x A500k. Got all that done & put the CD4013AE in. Powered it up & although I now get a slightly filtered clean signal through in effect mode (as apposed to nothing at all), the audio probe is still stopping at the input pins of all the SAD1024's I've tried in it. When the Accent knob is on max, no signal through in effect mode. Looks like all the SAD1024's I have (4 of them) must be bad. I've eliminated every other possibility I can see. So this is another one I have to put away again indefinitely.
Unless the BBD's were purchased as fakes, 4 (5 if you include the MN3002) being dead is very unlikely, from a lot of BBD repair experience, I'd estimate they're the problem only 3-5% of the time unless they've been extremely poorly handled.
A BBD will usually be dead at the output, not the input as well. The CE-1 has a complex bias set up hooked to the input that could be causing your issue, have you tried probing the input without the BBD's installed?
Hi Scruffie,
I've only audio-probed the BBD's while they're socketed. The signal makes it to the input pins but not the output pins, so that is not a good sign.
With the CE1, it was chorusing as is, all that was changed between powering it up was a pot, some capacitors, diodes & a fresh LM1458 chip. So that BBD has gone from signal passing through the BBD to no longer reaching the output pins (signal only making it to the input pins).
With the Dod 640, literally everything has been replaced except the resistors. I've spent a lot of time making sure there are no shorts & that every trace goes where it should. I can never rule out 100% that there may be something somewhere causing this to happen, but my gut feeling is all the sad1024's are bad. They're very sensitive to age, static, handling & so forth. When used in Flangers they can fail a lot quicker just by using the feedback/accent knob at higher levels (perhaps in delay units that are tweaked for lots of repeats too), although that isn't the cause on this occasion.
I'm confident the ones I have aren't fakes, just more inclined to believe they have all failed for whatever reason. The last 2 reticons I bought were from a repair guy that had recently retired & closed his repair shop. He was just selling off a few odds & ends he had left over. They were from a large batch he sourced through official suppliers in the 80's & he'd used many from that batch over the years to repair vintage gear. They were stored professionally & mailed to me shielded & packed professionally, no bent pins, just NOS. It doesn't mean they were still working after so long & it doesn't mean I can rule out 100% that I may have missed something causing them to appear dead either, but they're sure looking dead. The other 2 I had were bought years ago, one new from an audio place in LA & one used & tested working before being mailed to me at the time by one of those synth guys, so my confidence in their survival isn't high after so long.
I've asked drog trog if he still has any of the TDA1022 version CE1 PCB's left, because at least I have all the parts here to whip up another PCB, including several TDA chips (which are at least still buyable to future proof it). If/when more MN3002's surface, I can get back to sorting that version out & also happy to have both versions or to give one away later.
It's just one of those things, it's not that I couldn't just buy an original CE1 or one of the clones floating around, it's more for the challenge & the whole DIY thing. A challenge that KO'd me on this occasion,hehe, but that's the way it goes sometimes. Also, I'm not one to post build reports, don't have the time or space for painting labels etc, there's so many people better at it than me, but I just liked the effort DT put into this one & wanted to support it as there wasn't much additional info or many people posting on it.
On a more crazier note, I've got another couple of sad1024's on the way, this time from the same place I got the working MN3002 from.
I know, I'll never learn, hehe...
Quote from: RDL68 on November 01, 2018, 08:42:44 PM
Hi Scruffie,
I've only audio-probed the BBD's while they're socketed. The signal makes it to the input pins but not the output pins, so that is not a good sign.
Ah, I misunderstood, I thought you were saying the signal died
at the input pin, not that it reached there and then stopped.
QuoteWith the CE1, it was chorusing as is, all that was changed between powering it up was a pot, some capacitors, diodes & a fresh LM1458 chip. So that BBD has gone from signal passing through the BBD to no longer reaching the output pins (signal only making it to the input pins).
That's quite a few parts changed, lots of things could have happened during that to cause the surrounding circuitry to fail but why would those things kill a BBD? Unless you're doing this in your best wool suit in a room full of balloons, a socketed BBD is usually pretty safe.
Quote
They're very sensitive to age, static, handling & so forth. When used in Flangers they can fail a lot quicker just by using the feedback/accent knob at higher levels (perhaps in delay units that are tweaked for lots of repeats too), although that isn't the cause on this occasion.
The first part is true, they are sensitive to static and handling but where did you get the idea that they're sensitive to feedback? Feedback simply increases the level to the input and in any design worth its salt will have no effect on anything that could harm the BBD.
Age related death, perhaps one chip by fluke (though I've never heard of it happening before) but without an external reason such as moisture or static, there's no reason 4 would die, I know they're considered sensitive but they're not
that sensitive.
People always assume the BBD is the culprit as it's the most expensive and rare part but this usually ends up not being the case, it's just one of those confirmation bias/internet rumours that refuses to die. Have you actually tested the clock in the DOD? Replacing parts doesn't always fix things.
I don't know your skill level but regardless, I would consider putting up some debugging info such as voltages for others to take a peak at before you go writing off 5 BBD's. Also if you don't have a scope, buying even one of the cheap $30 Chinese models would be invaluable in this situation.
I could understand if replacing a few caps on the CE1 may have loosened a wire somewhere causing an issue, but the dreaded signal not passing through the BBD issue wasn't one I wanted to see. It's looking like it didn't survive the tinkering. I was mindful of not touching the pins etc, so it's disappointing it happened.
With the SAD's failing with Flanger feedback up high, that's just something I read recently googling around, so it's grain of salt stuff, if it's wrong it's wrong & appreciate the correction. It's not related to what's happened with these 2 circuits, just meant to emphasize they can fail much easier than other chips.
I'm certainly nowhere near an expert with these things, that's for sure. I haven't done this professionally, so it's all learn as I go over the years. More often than not, they work first go & if not I can eventually get them working.
After building my own oscilloscope a while ago, I wasn't happy with it because apart from being a single probe thing, I found the 2 mini calibration trimmers both failed after just a few turns. I never bothered trying to fix it, although it could be done to get it tuned in a little better, I just ended up buying a dual probe scope recently instead. It's not a small USB thing, it's a standalone Gratten. It's actually larger than I anticipated, but it is what it is. It came in handy setting up the Ibanez FL99 from Dino & Phil recently, getting the 2 waveforms on screen & adjusting the trimmers to match the waves. A couple of other times I've tried using it things didn't make sense to me, hence my inexperience with it.
If you think it's worth persevering with the Dod 640, I'll keep going, but no output signal from the BBD's gave me the impression they have problems, ie failed. I agree, it doesn't mean they have all failed, it just really inconveniently looks that way despite hoping at least one if not more are still OK. I haven't tested the clock, nor am I a modulation engineer, I've only used a voltmeter to check if voltages were fluctuating on some of the various IC's pins & it looked that way, but it's not a clock test by any means. I can only go by every replacement part testing OK before going on the PCB. So it should work, it just isn't getting past the BBD's & apart from your suggestion of checking the clock, I'm not sure how to progress for now, so I'll try to figure out how to test the clock if nothing else.
Thanks for the advice too. By the way, I've put together quite a few of the Lectricfx builds & all worked well first go. The Zirconia was the only one that sounded weird & unusable but Keefe emailed me back within an hour saying increase the voltage from 9v, which I did & it worked perfectly after that.
Ah okay well usually the clock is actually the more likely chip to die than the BBD itself (as I mentioned, that's just one of those persistent internet rumours) and no clock means... no signal through the BBD!
You can do a simple test on the BBD clock pins (or on the clock its self if you know which pins are providing the pulses) they should have 50% of the supply voltage on them, it's not a perfect test but if the two pins have different voltages, you know something is definitely wrong with the clock.
Next, if the voltages are correct and your multimeter has a frequency counter (Hz setting) you can test what frequency the clock is providing by probing one of the two clock pins, again, not as good as a scope but simple to try. If there is a good sweeping frequency (the 640 is similar to the MXR-117 so something like 50kHz to 1MHz at full range and a slow sweep would be a ball park) then you can assume the clock is probably okay, although that's not the end of the story.
A BBD will also not produce an output if a) the input bias is out of range or b) there is no source follower resistor or something is wrong with it (for the SAD1024 that's a resistor going to ground from the output).
Besides the BBD, the only other chips on it are an LM324N & RC4136N, both op-amps, which test OK in my IC tester (the part number pops straight up on the screen). That just leaves the 4013, which is a flip flop chip (also tests OK), so that must be the clock of the thing. I'll check out the 4013 pinout & get my head around what is what & get the multimeter out. It does have a frequency counter, had to use it to calibrate a few others along the way. I just wish the IC tester could check BBD's...
If everything checks out clock related, then resistors are all that's left that I haven't replaced on the 640. Generally if they aren't burnt out or contaminated with anything that's causing them to disintegrate, they usually stand the test of time. However, if it turns out it's a resistor gone bad all this time I will kick myself. It'll be a first for me, a bad resistor that is, not kicking myself, never said I was perfect...
Don't forget broken traces and bad solder joints, two things that can show up over time and can cause plenty of havoc and be very tricky to spot.
Yes the 4013 is the clock, the pulses will either be produced by pins 1, 2&5 or 13, 9&12, you just need to trace which are going to the BBD.
Scruffie, I didn't have any luck with frequency measurement. Maybe I was doing it wrong. No frequencies were fluctuating.
I've done it before with one or two other flangers, the reading goes increasingly up, then slowly down, just a matter of noting the top & lowest frequencies & adjusting the trimmers accordingly (or in this case seeing if there's any movement at all).
I looked over the pins of the 4013 on the trace side of the PCB. There were no breaks in traces so it was puzzling.
I remembered what happens to TV fly-leads when they've been in use for a while (the cable from TV to the wall). Even if they haven't been touched or moved for a few years they can suddenly stop working or give a bad reception. You can check them with a continuity tester, they'll check out OK, but still wont do their job. HDMI cables can suddenly go flaky too. And those LED torches, don't you just hate how they start flickering & you have to keep tapping them to keep the light on, you can't clean the battery contacts enough to keep them stable...
So I thought while I had the 640 guts out, I'll replace the whole socket the 4013 was in, as it was over a quarter of a century old.
I took out the BBD to keep it safe & then also the 4013. I used some trusty solder wick & the old 4013 socket popped right out with no damage to any traces. I soldered a new socket in place, put the chips back in & powered it up. The first BBD I put in got a result, so yes it's now sort of working almost but not quite as it should, but at least it's chorusing & flanging a bit now.
First thing I noticed was it was very difficult to find the sweet spot for the 2 trimmers, so at this stage I'm close to zeroing in on the right spots, but I'm not getting the seriously over the top flanging I know this thing is capable of, it's more mild & chorusy. From memory, it was never that difficult adjusting the trimmers, they had a much wider working range. In fact one of the trimmers I could adjust to use the 640 as more of a flanger or adjust it the other way for one of the best chorus sounds ever. Now it's like I'm trying to find the 2 sweet spots of both trimmers just to get it working at all.
Also it's making some random popping noises & after messing about a bit since freshly wiring it up, moving or tapping the PCB seems to set it off somewhat as well, also has the effect of the effect cutting in & out or going clean straight through, so I'm thinking loose wire(s) or flaky something somewhere.
It's great to make some major progress though, at least now it's working again, but for the moment it still sounds like any old pedal that needs a service & tune up, so I'll have to put a bit more time into it to get it stable, clean its carbies etc.
Thanks again for the encouragement to stick with it. I thought I had it narrowed down to being the 4013 as the problem & when I replaced it with the exact brand & model AE chip & it still didn't work, I was really disappointed because I had already re-flowed the pins of that 4013 socket & checked the traces etc. Yet, by replacing the socket itself today, the thing decides to start working. Unbelievable.
Now I'm wondering if I should replace the other 3 sockets as well, they might all have corrosion or whatever else impeding contact from the other IC pins. Some of the pins could be working as resistors now. I shudder to think...
With the CE1, I haven't given up on it, I'll just have to go over the area around the LM1458 where I replaced a couple of diodes & caps as there's a chance I missed something, dry joint or whatever, so there's hope for the MN3002 yet.
Due to the rarity of those chips & having no spares now, I still intend doing the CE1 TDA version (fortunately drog trog still had a TDA PCB to sell me) as I already have a few of those chips on hand, along with everything else needed. It's just to future proof my own CE1 so I can keep it going if the main chip does/or has failed on the MN3002 version. It'd also be quicker & more cost effective to populate another PCB than try searching for spare MN3002's.
With the Dod 640, I obviously missed the elephant in the room = the old IC sockets, corrosion on the top side etc, so getting rid of the remaining old ones is bound to clean up the signal a heck of a lot. Re-flowing their pins just wasn't good enough, lesson learnt. Another point is even the cheap IC sockets around these days do a better job maintaining their grip on IC pins than what was available circa 1980. The "turned pin sockets" even better. The resistors should still be OK & I reckon the worst thing that could've happened to a few over time is they may have started getting a little bit noisier. I'll see how it goes after getting the remaining old IC sockets out of there first, as I already re-flowed all the resistors recently. If new IC sockets get it stable & quiet, I'm not keen on replacing all resistors just for the sake of it.
The 640 was a fairly good flanger design (apart from the AC transformer causing some hum & risking power surges), but I really liked the chorus it could do as well. Most chorus circuits tend to use a single MN3007, being a single 1024 stage BBD, but there was something about the Dod using the 2 x 512 stages in parallel & out of phase that made it special. I'm sure there'd a be a few chorus designs around that do something similar, I just haven't searched for any, just going by what I have & only the 4 button Boss dimension springs to mind as a possibility of doing things that way (having built the blueshift last year with its 2 BBD's), albeit with buttons & not pots.
Same with Flangers, most don't use 2 x BBD's in parallel & out of phase, but a lot in the past used the 2 x 512 stage halves of the sad1024's in series which is being replicated exactly by a single MN3007 in remakes by the more experienced guys offering their PCB's these days. The BYOC Flanger is the only DIY one I'm aware of that did it with 2 x BBD's in parallel & out of phase. The Ibanez FL99 used 2 BBD's as well, but I haven't looked into if it's in series, parallel etc, sure sounds great that one though.
I put some more attention into the Dod 640 over the last couple of days.
I replaced the remaining old IC sockets, then sprayed on some PCB cleaner, as I'd left so much flux residue everywhere. There was enough still there from the early days to warrant a good clean. Most wasn't budging, so I left it overnight to soak a bit & then gave it a 2nd spray today. A sacrificial toothbrush & pin (for scraping between closer pads) later, it was clean enough to eliminate the possibility of any old residue having turned partially conductive. I let it dry a few hours, then I put all the IC's back in & it's now running as good as new. There's no noise artifacts or pops, just a great unique vintage flange. It all seems stable for now.
The range on the clock trimmer is back as well. I just set it at the end for best flange, then backed it off a little to stop it going mental, so I assume turning it towards the chorus end would be increasing the delay time, hence being better for chorus.
I'm not sure what the other trimmer was called (maybe "color") but that one only had a very small range to tune in the effect, so as usual, just a matter of hitting on the spot in the middle of that narrow zone with the least distortion. It took a few goes that one, but once in the right spot it sounds great.
Replacing the 3x D100k pots with B100k's works perfectly. I'm just not happy with the curve of the A500k as a replacement for the D500k (speed knob), so I think I'll have to swap that one for a B500k. It's feeling too bunched up at the fastest speeds.
Anyway, it's all done & working, no noise or any issues whatsoever, the 70's carbon resistors quietly live on, just have to swap a speed pot later to get the curve feeling better.
Most of my pedals from those early 80's days were Boss & no Boss I've owned has ever needed a repair. They're all still working as good as new, even the oldies. I had an Ibanez analog delay fail on me during those days (the pink one with the small square chrome switch), but not the Boss DSD (digital sampler delay).
Quick story, I once used the DSD for a prank on some friends that I knew were on the way over. The house had a momentary button outside for the doorbell inside, so I used some jumper leads inside from the actual bell end to a regular guitar lead & used that as the sample trigger mechanism plugged into the socket on the DSD. Then I set up a seriously huge stack of speakers & amps behind the front door....and they were expecting "ding dong" haha. Good old Boss pedals, what can't they do....
After 6 weeks off all things electronics, I got back to finishing the CE1 this week.
The MN3002 version was OK in the end. First thing I saw when getting back to it was it just had 2 wires that had worked loose from the mode 3pdt after all the dithering about replacing the caps/diodes mentioned previously. Instantly fixed.
But, as I wanted to future proof this & as drog trog had also sent me a TDA1022 version PCB, not to mention having several of those TDA chips on hand, I soldered up that TDA version.
It worked first go, but it had the same annoying hum present as my MN3002 version. I first thought it may have been because I wired the 2 x 3pdt's instead of soldering them directly to the PCB's. It wasn't caused by that though, I tested it with a 9v battery & it worked perfectly without the hum, so the power adapter was the cause of the hum. Oddly enough it works fine with a 9v battery in vibrato mode but seems to lack the current from a battery to kick in the chorus mode, but that's OK, I'll get a better power adapter later. I read somewhere that these things don't like switch-mode power supplies, so that's probably all it is.
I still have to wire up the mode LED's & think about whatever other mods later, but as a bare bones thing it is working exactly as it should. The enclosure already has spare holes for a toggle & a couple more pots, so I'll get all that sorted later.
The only change I made from the first board I did was the 3 power caps next to the recon power module. Instead of neat & small 35v caps, I used larger 50v Nichicon low ESR's (with better heat tolerance, longer life), which meant I had to lay them down on wacky angles, but they fit OK in the enclosure.
I'm not sure how to set the CE1 trimmer, but I've left it somewhere in the middle of its range & it seems to be fine as is. I think it would need an oscilloscope & the Boss service notes to sort that out properly though...
Does anyone have the schematic for this project? The link in the first post does not work anymore. I am mainly curious about the powersupply part
Quote from: Ricotjuh on December 28, 2018, 08:05:58 PM
Does anyone have the schematic for this project? The link in the first post does not work anymore. I am mainly curious about the powersupply part
Here's the schematic.
I had trouble posting it but Brian said the file was too big, so he resized the file & emailed it back.
I'm now just re-posting the smaller file size version for anyone else that needs it.
I was surprised by that because I downloaded the original from this thread months ago & tried posting the original at first to no avail. Not to worry. Computers, you know what they're like...
Thanks a lot for the schematic. You helped me a lot with this.
Hi everyone, for the TDA1022 version i have to change another components on the circuit or tweaking some voltages? or just make an adapter pin to pin? Reading the datasheets this is the equivalent pin configuration:
TDA1022 Pin -----> MN3002 Pin
1 2 CLK1
4 12 CLK2
5 3 Input
8 13 Out1
9 4 -15V
12 14 Out2
13 11 -14V
16 7 GND
Thanks!
@luchin542
It was drog_trog that got the 2 different (but almost identical) CE1 PCB layouts done for MN3002 & TDA1022P chips.
He hasn't been registered on the forum for a while now, so I'm not sure he or anyone else will answer your question.
He also said interest in it wasn't as much as he expected, so I'm not sure doing another CE1 layout now would be a good investment of time, if that's what you're doing. Maybe the power supply section could be improved, but apart from that it's a CE1 circuit part for part.
It's still a good question because there will be more genuine CE1's needing repair in the future & the MN3002's are too difficult to source now. The ability to replace a dead MN3002 with an IC socket & a small riser-board with a TDA1022P would be knowledge worth having.
I'll just add, having soldered up both versions for MN3002 & TDA1022P myself, the BOM & part count was identical for both versions. One had a 14pin BBD the other had a 16pin BBD & the only other difference was a few parts reorganized (slightly moved out of the way on the PCB) to accommodate the longer 16pin IC.
Thank you RDL68!!!
I have a noisy CE-1 original unit. I read the problem is the MN3002 and change to TDA1022 will fix the problem. So i make the swap between the chips with an adapter that i made, and sockets to replace easily with the proper pin to pin configuration. Finally the unit works nice with the TDA chip, without noise but to my ears there is (slightly) less headroom on the chorus/vibrato effect, but is just a little difference.
Thanks for your help.
@luchin542
Well done repairing your original CE1 with a TDA1022P.
As for the headroom, assuming all your capacitors are new & not still the old ones from the 70's, maybe you could try replacing the 2 opamps with something modern (not the LM1458 chip because that is the clock).
I was just looking at the schematics (original & clone) & noticed there are some changes between the original CE1 & drog_trogs PCB.
He was clear his CE1 was a part for part replica of the Retrosonic Chorus (CE1 clone). I always assumed the Retrosonic was an exact Boss CE1 replica, but I assumed wrong.
Most, if not all, of the transistors are different.
The original CE1 used 2 x ta7135p opamps (I think they're the old Toshiba single row parts). The clones are using the more common TL072 opamps instead. So you could try Burr Browns or whatever else to see if the headroom improves. Obviously it would get fiddly & time consuming, but it's up to you. Maybe socket some ribbon cable to a riser-board.
Unless you get lucky & find another MN3002, I can't see much else you can try.
Maybe try replacing the 50k level pot with 500k for better impedance if you're using guitars.
None of those things will affect headroom, only noise levels.
The problem with the CE-1 is it uses a fixed bias for the BBD and the reason they normally have a bias trimmer is because they're not consistent in their optimal bias point, if the headroom is low, adjust the bias or try another BBD that might bias up better with the fixed bias point.
The TDA1022 is actually a little superior to the MN3002 from a cursory glance of the datasheet, S/N is slightly improved, it claims an extra 0.5V P-P headroom @ 1% THD and the insertion loss is lower, which might mean the mixing resistors need adjusting to get a proper wet/dry mix but the datasheet doesn't have enough info on that and it'd need measuring.
Another thing I notice is the TDA1022 states adjusting the bias for 5V while the MN3002 says 3.3-4.9V so even with a fixed bias (I haven't looked at what the CE-1 has) the TDA1022 has slightly different requirements.
My misinterpretation, Scruffie, I was indeed thinking noise & clarity. To use dirt boxes as a comparison, to get it away from the compressed muddy sound of an Ibanez Sonic Dist & closer to the clarity & better dynamics of a Boss Blues Driver.
The only trimmer in the CE1 is across pins 13 & 14 of the MN3002, they're the 2 output pins, so useless in this case. Therefore, it's just a matter of determining which resistor(s) to replace with a trimmer to fine tune the bias.
1 volt may not seem like much, in fact it could be as much as 1.7 volts out of focus, but it's enough to cause the problem for him. Once established (I'd be surprised if it isn't already), that info would become a mod everyone that builds these (or owns the originals) would probably use.
Quote from: luchin542 on January 09, 2019, 01:58:54 AM
I have a noisy CE-1 original unit. I read the problem is the MN3002 and change to TDA1022 will fix the problem.
Quote from: RDL68 on January 09, 2019, 03:08:46 AM
As for the headroom, assuming all your capacitors are new & not still the old ones from the 70's, maybe you could try replacing the 2 opamps with something modern (not the LM1458 chip because that is the clock).
Where is the head banging desk emoji?
Fair go, Lars, we don't all have the knowledge of scruffie with BBD's. He was very diligent to spot an oversight from drog_trog with the slight variance in BBD voltage. Most of us are just hobbyists or guitarists that assume things like that are already sorted before buying the PCB's.
Personally I've heard the term "headroom" applied to many pedals, run the Wrecktifier at 18v instead of 9v for better headroom, run the Zirconia compressor at 15v instead of 9v for better headroom, do Monty Allums Boss GE-7 EQ mod for better headroom & so on, but never heard it in relation to tuning in a BBD, nor did I expect it in relation to a circuit that has it preset without a trimmer.
With the capacitors in the old original CE1's, it's not such a crazy idea to replace them. That Dod Flanger 640 from the same era that I restored last year had one ceramic disintegrate in my fingers from age. When replacing the polyester caps, several measured way beyond their original tolerance which could've caused any number of problems. Most were still OK, but I concluded it was best to replace the lot. In Madbeans Collosalus, the capacitor that determines the clock frequency has to be accurate, so you wouldn't want some 40 or 50 year old part no longer functioning at the intended value in similar circuits.
Hello, I have a question about the wiring of the stereo output. If I understand correctly from of the schematic and the manual, it should be something like this.
However, the "Dry" signal from the stereo jack will not be adjustable with the Level button. So only the signal from the mono output is adjustable.
Can somebody verify whether this is correct?
Or does anyone know how this is done in the Retro Sonic?
(https://www.mupload.nl/img/rsjj1h9f6tur.png)
Hello,
it's possible to buy somewhere PCB's?
Quote from: marcinzera on February 17, 2019, 01:20:17 PM
Hello,
it's possible to buy somewhere PCB's?
He's on ebay selling the PCB's :
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CE1-CLONE-PCB-KING-OF-CHORUS-USES-THE-TDA1022-512-BBD/254107550399?hash=item3b29fd82bf:g:8pQAAOSwm-FcKVxP:rk:11:pf:0
As a few people have emailed me about power supplies for this circuit over the last few months, I'll just do a quick post about it for anyone else building one of these.
I usually test whatever build I do with a 9v battery with a short battery clip to DC plug. This is not a circuit where an internal battery clip can be used because there is simply not enough current in a 9v battery to power it. The circuit itself runs off dual rail charge-pumped power, so that's +14v, -14v & ground (a big ask for a 9v battery). When I tested it with a battery it did manage to run the vibrato mode, but not the chorus mode.
So moving on to power adapters. The majority of 9v power adapters available, including those sold in music stores touted as being designed for effects, are all switch-mode power supplies. Sure they can run a daisy chain of common Ibanez/Boss pedals off the one 9v adapter, but not this particular circuit. It simply doesn't like switch-mode power supplies & creates a very loud hum which makes the effect unusable.
And so starts the quest for the ideal "isolated" power supply.
I ended up buying a "Caline P1" power supply.
It provides 5 x 9v outputs at 500ma, along with options for 12v, 15v & 18v at 1000ma.
I've attached a photo so anyone interested can have a look at the size of it next to a common Boss pedal.
As I said to Ricotjuh recently, if I was looking for something to use in a pro touring rig, I'd be looking at a more reputable brand of isolated PSU for reliability, even if it cost $500 compared to $50 for the Caline P1, but I did find that it's adequate & works out of the box. Whether it lasts remains to be seen, as such I'm not recommending it, but for testing builds etc it's fine for myself. As far as the fussy power supply requirements of this CE1 are concerned, it works without hum off 9v povided by the Caline P1. With a few other builds for me to finish up later that require an isolated power supply, the Caline P1 will be handy for those as well, but I repeat, if I was going to tour with some of these demanding builds, I'd shop for something confirmed to be reliable...
I'll just add that the Caline P1 had an 18v power adapter in the box with a bundle of individual DC cables...
Quote from: RDL68 on February 17, 2019, 06:40:00 PM
Quote from: marcinzera on February 17, 2019, 01:20:17 PM
Hello,
it's possible to buy somewhere PCB's?
He's on ebay selling the PCB's :
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CE1-CLONE-PCB-KING-OF-CHORUS-USES-THE-TDA1022-512-BBD/254107550399?hash=item3b29fd82bf:g:8pQAAOSwm-FcKVxP:rk:11:pf:0
Bought him a PCB in august, never arrived.
Here is what drog_trog sent me about wiring up the stereo output jacks:
Quote
you need a 4 pin jack
Tip
Sleeve
ring & Ring
The 2 rings are 'open' so that when a jack is inserted the 2 rings connect. Im struggling to remember the part number tho
To me, this is still clear as mud. I don't think this is how it works in the original Boss CE1 either.
Just use a spdt switch if you can't find a jack. This way you could use that switch as a wet only switch. When the switch connects the grey and red wire, this will remove the dry signal from the mono jack leaving wet only. Connect the stereo jack tip at junction R49 between R52, this is your dry out stereo signal. So now your stereo jack will always give you a dry signal and your mono jack can give you wet/dry or wet only. This might be useful when recording. You can have the wet and dry to different channels.
Another popular mod is fake stereo when you invert the wet signal and feed that to the stereojack. Tonepad has this listed for the small clone I think.
Quote from: dani965 on March 03, 2019, 02:50:28 PM
Quote from: RDL68 on February 17, 2019, 06:40:00 PM
Quote from: marcinzera on February 17, 2019, 01:20:17 PM
Hello,
it's possible to buy somewhere PCB's?
He's on ebay selling the PCB's :
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CE1-CLONE-PCB-KING-OF-CHORUS-USES-THE-TDA1022-512-BBD/254107550399?hash=item3b29fd82bf:g:8pQAAOSwm-FcKVxP:rk:11:pf:0
Bought him a PCB in august, never arrived.
Meaby somewhere is PCB layout to download?
I'd kinda like to take a crack at this as a project, but probably only a TDA1022 version. I've never even had an MN3004 in my possession.
Quote from: marcinzera on March 08, 2019, 09:26:03 PM
Quote from: dani965 on March 03, 2019, 02:50:28 PM
Quote from: RDL68 on February 17, 2019, 06:40:00 PM
Quote from: marcinzera on February 17, 2019, 01:20:17 PM
Hello,
it's possible to buy somewhere PCB's?
He's on ebay selling the PCB's :
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CE1-CLONE-PCB-KING-OF-CHORUS-USES-THE-TDA1022-512-BBD/254107550399?hash=item3b29fd82bf:g:8pQAAOSwm-FcKVxP:rk:11:pf:0
Bought him a PCB in august, never arrived.
Meaby somewhere is PCB layout to download?
Build DOC is in the first post of this thread.
It looks like the link above to buy the TDA1022P version PCB's has expired, so here is a link to all drog_trog's stuff on ebay & at the time of writing the CE1 PCB's are still available with everything else he's selling :
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/m.html?item=254155604505&ViewItem=&_ssn=dfx_pedz&rt=nc
As for mine, I already drilled an enclosure last year to include various mods. I only ever got it working without any mods before moving on to other stuff, so I bought another enclosure to drill without the extra switch & pot holes. I might just leave it at that for my TDA version.
My MN3002 version can live in the "to do later" pile indefinitely & unboxed. I might revisit it one day if I end up with a few more MN3002's, but they're not worth paying overs for when there's an easier alternative. Also they sound the same to me, so it's more a case of what you have on hand (or can get).
Quote from: madbean on March 09, 2019, 02:00:19 AM
I'd kinda like to take a crack at this as a project, but probably only a TDA1022 version. I've never even had an MN3004 in my possession.
That would be great, Brian 8)!
Quote from: kaeisy on March 09, 2019, 07:20:12 PM
Quote from: madbean on March 09, 2019, 02:00:19 AM
I'd kinda like to take a crack at this as a project, but probably only a TDA1022 version. I've never even had an MN3004 in my possession.
That would be great, Brian 8)!
+Juan
Did anyone save the TDA1022 version of the project documentation?
Quote from: madbean on March 11, 2019, 03:15:32 PM
Did anyone save the TDA1022 version of the project documentation?
There's only the one project DOC to use for both. All part numbers (& part count) are identical, no part changes whatsoever, apart from the different BBD's.
The only difference between versions is MN3002 is a 14pin chip & the TDA1022P is a 16pin chip, which resulted in a couple of parts being slightly re-positioned on the PCB. Obviously there'd also be a few changes to the PCB traces around the BBD's due to the different pinouts.
Earlier in the year Scruffie pointed out that the voltage requirement of the respective BBD's is very close but not identical. In most cases it would be fine, but due to the slight variance in tolerance from one chip to the next from the same batch (similar to how a batch of 100uf capacitors can measure anywhere from 80 to 120 or the hfe of transistors vary from one to the next), there may be rare instances where one particular chip may sound like it isn't quite tuned in well enough (& no trimpot in the CE1 design to tune in the BBD). Simply swapping it for another chip would likely sort it out as it would only rarely happen within the extreme end of the range. Ideally a resistor or two could possibly be replaced with a trimpot to better take care of it so it never happens at all.
Thanks a lot for the info. So, it looks like the input of the BBD, MN3002 or TDA1022 is just fixed bias between +/-14v with a 100k limiter. So, I think a 100k trimmer/10k resistor between those two rails would do the trick and then lose some of the fixed resistors in the process to simplify it. The thing that was throwing me off is the MN3002 has a "bias" pin which the TDA1022 does not. But, I think it's just a matter of ignoring that connection on the TDA.
I think I know enough now to work it out. I think I could make a small conversion PCB to fit either BBD on the same board, too. Anyway, I'll strat a separate thread when I have something to show. Don't wanna derail this one with my own nonsense.
I have made my own pcb with the information that can be found here in this topic. However, there is a very large noise that fluctuates on the settings of the Chorus and Vibrato. This already happens without an input signal. I supply the pedal with a 12V adapter. No switched power supply. People who might have had more problems with this?
What kind of noise? Hiss? Chirps? Whine?
Quote from: Scruffie on December 09, 2019, 01:42:23 PM
What kind of noise? Hiss? Chirps? Whine?
I will make a sound clip later this evening. Can hardly describe it. Perhaps a sound clip says more.
See attached video
https://youtu.be/cp6Z_nfKiqM
Quote from: Ricotjuh on December 09, 2019, 07:49:49 PM
See attached video
https://youtu.be/cp6Z_nfKiqM
That sounds like straight up power supply hum to me (and really, really bad at that)
What are you using as a "12V adapter?"
I have now tested it with this adapter. Obviously not the best power supply. But I think I had the same problem with my other adapter, but this one is now at work. I am taking this home home this morning and, to be sure, I will test it again.
But you are almost certain that it must be a power supply problem?
(https://www.mupload.nl/img/i96izjnqe.jpg)
That is an odd one, I'm wondering if it's intereference from something else in the room, I wouldn't call that power supply hum and nor does it sound like a short.
I had a similar hum issue when I did my one of these a year back. As I described in earlier posts in this thread back at that time, this circuit is very fussy with its PSU & it must be an isolated PSU. You can't just plug in any power adapter & you definitely can't daisy chain these. Also, a 9v battery lacks the required current to run it, but perhaps 2 wired up together would work to avoid the hum, even as a temporary solution to rule out other causes, but I'm pretty sure it's the lack of an isolated PSU because I went through this myself.
Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can come up with a small power supply circuit to avoid this problem, so any old PSU can be used. From memory, I don't think the small power supply PCB's (with the charge pump) Brian was selling worked for this circuit. I remember Brian was going to have a look into doing this circuit for the store, if so, sorting out a better power section would be recommended before churning out a batch of PCB's. Otherwise, it has to be a power adapter into an isolated power provider unit, then from there to this circuit.
Ohhh, yeah, it's using one of those DC/DC converter bricks, I haven't experimented with them much. Perhaps the datasheet offers some clues as to layout tips and noise reduction.
Reading back through the thread, as I said before, converting it to run on just +15V & TDA1022 would be the smartest option, more than enough headroom for a guitar and that should solve the power supply issues.
Here's a link to the recom 1215D datasheet (power module), albeit not much info there :
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/468/RD-958126.pdf
I also attached a schematic of the power section used in this ce1 clone circuit.
Maybe it's possible someone could re-do the support parts around it to get rid of that hum without having to resort to using an additional isolated power supply unit.
I don't know how, so if it is possible, it could need anything from a couple of extra 1n5817 diodes, a film cap or 2, maybe even a drop down resistor. The answer or solution could be quite simple for someone in the know.
All switching/switch mode power adapters are the enemy of this circuit, instant hum, but they can be used to power an isolated power supply unit, which in turn can power this circuit.
I just did a test with a 12V power supply with transformer and a switched power supply from Omron. But both power supplies give the same phenomenon.
You are talking about an isolated power supply, but I think every adapter with transformer is isolated. Isn't this always through the transformer?! In my opinion, the term "isolated outputs" only occurs in power supplies that have multiple outputs where the GND's are not connected to each other. But I don't think this applies to a single output. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I can once again look for a 12V accu battery. Perhaps then I can exclude whether it is the power supply.
It's quite possible it's inherent to your layout, that datasheet has shed absolutely no light on the situation but I'm suspecting it is the problem.
Assuming as I said, it's not something in the room interfering and that boxing it wont clean it up.
The layout has been copied 1 on 1 from the design of drog_trog.
So I would expect others to have this phenomenon too.
I have a large box full of power adapters. Tried all I could. Also resorted to buying a few new ones specifically sold by music stores under the guise of "for pedals, no noise etc".
No luck with any of them. Always that same full-on hum when engaged. It seems all power adapters available are switch mode regardless of the blurb on the box, at least what I have are. Some say they're switch mode, some don't, which doesn't help. Only solution was a separate isolated power unit, which ironically is powered by a switching power adapter.
So basically you have 3 options. Get a proper isolated power unit (it's what they're made for afterall, ie fussy effects), come up with a better design of that circuits power section or run the circuit on batteries.
As I said, a single 9v battery doesn't have enough current, but 2 in parallel might do the trick. You could try it & being the same circuit as mine you would at least see if the hum is gone when it's engaged so you'd at least know if you're on the right track (isolated power being the cause) or whether to look elsewhere for a solution to the issue. Otherwise you'll end up going around in circles trying one switching power adapter or un-isolated power supply after another & getting nowhere.
It's a clone circuit that's extremely fussy about its power supply & I sure learned that the hard way, so I understand your frustrations, but what can I tell ya...
Looks to me line V- IN should connect to common ground.
Quote from: madbean on December 10, 2019, 10:46:11 PM
Looks to me line V- IN should connect to common ground.
(https://www.mupload.nl/img/d8est81bs9wl.jpg)
In version 2 it is explicitly said that this connection may not be linked to GND.
Quote from: RDL68 on December 10, 2019, 10:24:59 PM
I have a large box full of power adapters. Tried all I could. Also resorted to buying a few new ones specifically sold by music stores under the guise of "for pedals, no noise etc".
No luck with any of them. Always that same full-on hum when engaged. It seems all power adapters available are switch mode regardless of the blurb on the box, at least what I have are. Some say they're switch mode, some don't, which doesn't help. Only solution was a separate isolated power unit, which ironically is powered by a switching power adapter.
So basically you have 3 options. Get a proper isolated power unit (it's what they're made for afterall, ie fussy effects), come up with a better design of that circuits power section or run the circuit on batteries.
As I said, a single 9v battery doesn't have enough current, but 2 in parallel might do the trick. You could try it & being the same circuit as mine you would at least see if the hum is gone when it's engaged so you'd at least know if you're on the right track (isolated power being the cause) or whether to look elsewhere for a solution to the issue. Otherwise you'll end up going around in circles trying one switching power adapter or un-isolated power supply after another & getting nowhere.
It's a clone circuit that's extremely fussy about its power supply & I sure learned that the hard way, so I understand your frustrations, but what can I tell ya...
I'm going to try it tonight with two 9v batteries in parallel
Right... I'm now looking at the schematic for drog_trog's/DFX's circuit and as far as I can see, he's taken out ALL the power filtering in the circuit so I'm sure that's helping... Boss didn't throw that in for fun.
That brick wants a 12V input, so why is there an 11V clamping zener? And if people are running it with a 9V supply, while I prefer the series diode polarity protection, surely in this case it's not doing the brick any favors.
Where did those 220uF cap values come from? I had a look at some of their other bricks for clues and the ones that do give some circuit examples suggest much smaller values. I assume this is a switching supply in a box (hence it not liking other switching supplies) so I'd have thought LESR caps would have been the best option too.
I think someone needs to get this circuit on a breadboard and actually do some tests to get reliable operation, because the Retro-Sonic chorus uses one of these and I can't believe they'd release it if it only worked on a handful of power supplies.
A note was placed in the building description for the 11V zener: "* OMIT-Only needed if using the MP211 DC Converter"
So this is not necessary for the Recom DC / DC module.
I can't find an MP211, there's an MD212D though, which... also doesn't need it, but not really important as to the current issue.
The MD212D datasheet does give a tiny bit more information, it recommends an L/C input filter and a 1uF ceramic (tantalum would do as that's a large value for ceramics) and 10uF electro on its output when testing output ripple so that's probably a good starting point for values for our purposes.
But again, no power filtering and a potentially poor layout (I haven't seen it to comment) will be just as big a concerns as getting the brick running optimally.
It's not shown in the datasheet linked earlier in this thread but if you look at the REM2 one on the RECOM site their dual output circuit shows a 470pF 6kV cap between COM and V+IN (plus an inductor at the PS).
https://recom-power.com/pdf/Medline_DC-DC/REM2.pdf
What's bugging me about this is the RECOM brick gives you ground isolation but you don't need it in this application - you only need the two power rails it makes. And, given your noise sounds like a ground hum, well...
Maybe I'm confused here but what I am taking away from the datasheet is "single" output is +/- out and "dual" output is the same plus ground isolation.
Quote from: madbean on December 11, 2019, 02:29:47 PM
Maybe I'm confused here but what I am taking away from the datasheet is "single" output is +/- out and "dual" output is the same plus ground isolation.
Some of the bricks only offer a single supply voltage rather than split rail so I think that's where that's coming in to play, the - output is the isolated ground in that situation.
Still the same problem with two 9V batteries. So the problem does not seem to come from the power supply. Now continue to measure where it can come from.
Someone tips? I have a scoop at my disposal.
That's bad luck, but you did the right thing eliminating the power supply as your issue, even though it remains an issue with this circuit, so be sure to keep using batteries for now while you sort out what's wrong with it. Unfortunately it's a drama having to troubleshoot from here though.
There's a fellow on ebay selling ce1 clones. In his listing he says "MUST BE POWERED BY A HIGH QUALITY ISOLATED Linear TRANSFORMER BASED POWER SUPPLY!
INFERIOR AND SWITCHMODE SUPPLY MAY CAUSE NOISE!"
(his capital letters, not mine)
As for the hum in your clip, sounds too intense & constant to me for something nearby to be causing it. It was exactly like what I was getting until I solved the power issue.
At least you only have 1 of your 2 issues left.
Most likely it's a short or wrong/dead part or orientation, dry joint, something grounding or not grounding when it should be, anything along those lines. Sometimes a bit of hookup wire can be problematic like this too depending on the batch. I went through hell with a bad batch of wire once, it was testing ok for continuity, re-soldering didn't sort it out, yet it was the cause of the issues I had (maybe too many broken strands in places, even though it wasn't bent).
It's disappointing to hear it wasn't just the power issue, lot of work still to go then.
Thanks for your comment. I have done some measurements around TDA 1022. I have my doubts about the measurement on pin 8 and pin 12. I initially test a 12V DC supply. And from 0.20 sec I do the measurement again but with a 9V battery.
0.00 sec -> Pin 1
0.04 sec -> Pin 4
0.07 sec -> Pin 8
0.12 sec -> Pin 12
0.20 sec -> Pin 1
0.24 sec -> Pin 4
0.27 sec -> Pin 8
0.31 sec -> Pin 12
(https://www.mupload.nl/img/ncrm2mi.png)
There is no signal input. Is it correct that I do measure something on the 2 outputs of the BBD?
https://youtu.be/exUZ9JbGHng
If I look carefully, I should not measure anything on the outputs when there is no input. The clock signals present should control the MOS transistors. But as long as there is no input, can't a signal be transmitted? In my opinion this is not correct ..
Before diving that far in, I'd suggest checking all the caps/soldering in that infamous power section & then using a voltmeter to see if it's putting out the correct voltage before it hits the rest of the circuit. You're now using an isolated PSU with the batteries, first problem solved (unfortunately there was also another) so once you verify the rest of that power section it'll make it easier for everyone to help you narrow it down from there with the rest of the circuit.
Ricotjuh, I just read back a couple of pages of this thread. First thing I noticed was the PCB layout you posted a few days ago. Paying it more attention, it's clearly different to the v1 version, basically it has the chorus depth mod & possibly other changes, otherwise the rest is likely the same.
Going back a bit further you said you did your own PCB. I have to ask, is that v2 PCB layout you posted what you've done or is it what drog_trog has done? Or is your PCB completely different?
I tried unsuccessfully to find a revised v2 build doc, also couldn't find any trace of drog_trog anywhere, even his ebay account is gone. It'd be helpful if you could post a link to the v2 doc (the file might be too big to post here).
As for mods, I abandoned all of them because even as simple as they are, I had major issues getting them working with this circuit, possibly due to the multiple GND points of weirdness, split rails, different voltages etc. I just boxed it up stock & working to be done with it. Actually, the only thing I did was I added an extra LED, so there's a blue one on for chorus mode & a different one for vibrato mode, they flash in time to the rate, but due to GND issues (again with something that should be so simple) I ended up having to replace a 3pdt with a 4pdt instead to do that, when otherwise it shouldn't have been necessary.
Anyway, if you've taken drog_trog's original schematic & added mods, that could be a big problem, especially if you've gone it alone with your own PCB layout. Whatever power hum noise a switch mode PSU introduces, it could also be introduced another way & feeding back into GND or something, it sure sounds like it in that clip you did.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F362736262293
Above the link to the V2 version. I have copied the layout of the V1 version. All tracks and components correspond to the layout of the original.
Thanks.
That'd be drog_trog, it's just a different ebay account to what he had before & he's listing them as retrosonic clone, not king of chorus anymore.
He's updated the schematic too with the CH depth mod, which is done differently to the 2 failed ways I tried it from stuff I'd found online.
With yours, the clock seems working, possibly the whole thing is, it just has the same power hum as using a switch mode PSU, so it shouldn't be too hard to track down where it's happening. My gut feeling for now is that something is shorting to GND or not connected to GND, which itself could also throw all the IC readings out.
Only got here today and missed avilable boards... still have on or two TDA1022 and no use for them at moment...
You can find the designer of the boards as dfx_parts on ebay uk. At the moment he only has the MN3002 board for sale, but you could drop him a message and ask for the TDA1022 version.
Quote from: kaeisy on January 03, 2020, 10:20:38 PM
You can find the designer of the boards as dfx_parts on ebay uk. At the moment he only has the MN3002 board for sale, but you could drop him a message and ask for the TDA1022 version.
Hi. Already see the seller, will send message soon. Thanks for the info.
Nuno
I built ver2 and followed the diagram not connecting an extra wire to the chorus depth pot ,when I eventually connected the extra wire there was hum ,Ihave built the TDA version .With a switchmode PS there is hum with a regulated supply just a little but as was mentioned here mine sound more like a tremelo with low end thump in chorus more vibe mode is great Earlier in the year Scruffie pointed out that the voltage requirement of the respective BBD's is very close but not identical. In most cases it would be fine, but due to the slight variance in tolerance from one chip to the next from the same batch (similar to how a batch of 100uf capacitors can measure anywhere from 80 to 120 or the hfe of transistors vary from one to the next), there may be rare instances where one particular chip may sound like it isn't quite tuned in well enough (& no trimpot in the CE1 design to tune in the BBD). Simply swapping it for another chip would likely sort it out as it would only rarely happen within the extreme end of the range. Ideally a resistor or two could possibly be replaced with a trimpot to better take care of it so it never happens at all.
I think this circuit does need a trim pot !!!!with a 25k intensity pot it helps but not a perfect chorus
My chorus :)
Quote from: DrBen_GE on August 27, 2020, 04:10:47 PM
My chorus :)
How does your PCB differ from drog_trog's? I think the weak part of his is the goofy and expensive Recom power supply. I've never gotten my build to work properly. I was kind of hoping madbean would release a reliable build someday...
Now I come across this video: https://youtu.be/PCz9JyEh4Go
The same pedal can be seen here. Here too I hear a lot of noise. Is that with you too? Still troubleshooting but can't find the problem yet.
I have now taken up this project again.
I started measuring with the audio probe, but I quickly picked up noise within the pedal. And after the BBD, this noise is merged with the "effect" and you can finally hear that.
So first find out where that noise comes from. And then I immediately come to the next point that I have my doubts about.
There is an amplifier circuit around IC2. However, I am measuring a very high gain here. Namely 1.5Vpp on the input (Pin 3). And almost 30Vpp on the output (pin 1). This is a gain of 20x. This seems like a lot to me. Or is this actually necessary to get the sometimes mentioned headroom? I can also imagine that every bit of noise that is there is also greatly amplified ..
I'd love to hear what you think about it.
(https://i.ibb.co/tcDvSwK/KING-OF-CHORUS-SCHEMATIC-meeting.png) (https://ibb.co/tcDvSwK)
The gain in previous post seems to be correct.
Just took another measurement, and then you can clearly see that the supply voltages dance with the chorus / vibrato effect.
In this video is measured on Pin 8 of IC2. This is the + 14V. This is the AC voltage on the 14V. You can clearly see that the AC signal responds to the effect.
https://youtu.be/c_w-dd6nEAw
In the next video I have drawn out the time base and zoomed in further on the signal.
The yellow channel is -14V (pin 4) and the blue channel is + 14V (pin 8)
I have yet to find out where this came from. All help and tips are of course welcome.
https://youtu.be/bbjNENkb53w
My goodness. This shrine to the origin of chorii thread is back.
Ricotjuh, after checking out that vid you found of someone selling their clone, the noise there seemed to disappear when his hands were on the strings & reappeared when he wasn't touching the strings, ie reaching for the pedal controls. It could be caused from anything from his guitar cord to his amp & anything else. I've never had that problem related to the CE1. It's a different kind of grounding problem & different noise to using the wrong type of power supply.
I recall the earlier vid you made of yours a year ago (or whenever it was) was indeed a different kind of noise & sounded exactly like the noise I was getting when I tried a dozen or so typical power supplies, including more than one which was advertised as "isolated". Only that product I mentioned I'd bought that was specifically designed to provide multiple isolated power outs for effects got rid of it for mine. Sorry I haven't been much help.
Hello .. thanks for your response.
My feeling says it is a grounding problem after all. But I don't measure crazy things in that area.
As for the power supply, I now also test with a 9V battery (2 parallel). And even then the problem continues to arise. And I can't get a cleaner power supply.
I now have new BBD chips. Also ordered PCB V2.0. I expect to receive it this week. Then rebuild the whole again. And then test again. To be continued.
Where can I find a PCB or transfer file for this? The build document link is dead.
Indeed, I'm interesting, too.
I'd like to see the final schematic with the TDA1022.
Thanks. :)
Here's my folder with all my collected CE1 build docs and schematics. It has everything you guys are asking for and more. Just don't expect me to be able to help you since mine doesn't work right either...
https://mega.nz/file/hZsEFYZI#Upbq0Nk_dnao3xVAQvflUTQlZ5edU5aBVQXRekpmZtI (https://mega.nz/file/hZsEFYZI#Upbq0Nk_dnao3xVAQvflUTQlZ5edU5aBVQXRekpmZtI)
Okay, I received V2.0 yesterday.
What I experienced during my first test with V1.0 is the number of wires that need to be soldered to the potentiometers. All this has to be concealed in the rather tight housing. So I made a piggyback board that slides onto the main PCB.
I made 2 versions. V1.0 is for my own fabricated PCB. This only consists of 4 potentiometers like the original from V1.0.
But because this PCB differs slightly in terms of component placement compared to the DFX print, I also made a version 2.0.
This fits completely on the DFX print and makes it possible to apply 4 buttons, or the modified version of 5 buttons. (extra chorus depth knob). If you do not want to use this option, place the level button on the most right position and only transfer Jumpers 1.
If you do want to use the 5 button mode, then make all Jumper 2 connections and then the level knob moves down and the chorus depth knob comes to the far right.
The trim pot is still accessible.
The only wires you need to solder are the input and output jack and the 9V jack.
When I receive these, I will continue testing.
Most parts are on it. Just wait for the Bourns potentiometer and some jumpers, and then the testing can begin.
(https://www.mupload.nl/img/s38rovw8kp.jpg)
My English isn't best, but... my new project :)
https://zapodaj.net/250d3c72bbd13.jpg.html
https://zapodaj.net/2604e07541686.jpg.html
I just finished my build and it worked great right off the bat. A little noisy with battery power but not any more than I'd expect. I added the Chorus Depth control. The only thing I would've liked would be some way of telling whether it's in Chorus or Vibrato mode, like a bi-color LED or something.
I decided to try adding a bi-color LED to the circuit. I used the unused center column on the chorus/vibrato footswitch to do the switching. I ran a wire from the cathode pad to the center switch lug. The common cathode of the LED goes to the other LED pad and each of the LED anodes to the top and bottom switch lugs (top lug for chorus, bottom lug for vibrato). I had to drop R64 down to 5k to make the LED a little brighter until I get some better bi-color ones. It didn't seeem to affect the sound quality at all and now it glows green for chorus and red for vibrato. Here's a quick diagram in case anyone else wants to try it.
What a great looking build. The demo video showed off the deep capabilities but I found I needed dramamine to handle it. The original was not at all subtle but didn't veer off into queasy territory either.
Bingo!
I am honored to show you me newest project. It is a copy of iconic chorus BOSS CE-1. I spend months over this project, of course I made lots of prototypes.
Here are differences between mine project and original:
👉power supply 9V or polarization BOSS
👉substitute hard to find analogue delay line MN3002 with newer electronic circuit
👉smaller box
That looks good. Is this just the exact copy described earlier in the topic? Or does this differ from what has been discussed here?
Are you willing to share your experience and schematic? So that we can all learn something from it?
Quote from: Ricotjuh on December 31, 2020, 08:14:45 PM
That looks good. Is this just the exact copy described earlier in the topic? Or does this differ from what has been discussed here?
Are you willing to share your experience and schematic? So that we can all learn something from it?
Thanks! Those are oryginal schematic with equivalent (TDA1022), and mod supply section.
Sound samples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soTdaKHS3RI&t=2s
Hi everyone, I've finished the king of chorus v.2 but it's not working. How likely is that I have a bad/fake TDA1022P?
The pedal powers on, leds work, I can only hear the guitar but with no effect. I also notice a very low amount of distortion in the background when it's on. Wiring and soldering are right and components are correct. The 'volume' and 'rate' pots work.
Is it worth trying a new 1022P chip?
Thanks
mine never worked either and i tried another TDA1022P chip but to no avail.
Quick update on this. I bought new chips and the pedal now works!
I just had a fake Chinese version. Watch out people! The pedal sounds great though, it's a great project.
hmm. mine looks real. i got it from smallbear a couple of years ago. it still didn't work though.
It's not easy to assemble as the spacing is not much, I had to check the wiring quite a bit, but the v.2 of the pedal I have is all correct in the end.
Hi. Have any of you tried to make a real stereo truebypass in CE-1?
I'm thinking about making some modifications to my effect. Originally we have a J-fet switch there. I think you can modify it and do it with some OPAMP