Hey guys,
I know I haven't posted here in about a year (due to work commitments).
If I have any cred left, please can I ask for help in how to deal with getting ripped off by Mark Shaner.
Essentially, this time last year I paid $400 for a Pulsemonger MkII because I had my first job after varsity and I really wanted to give back to boutique builders.
However, after paying the money all I received was excuse after excuse and I am still without a pedal and a seriously bad taste in my mouth.
All I want to do is bad mouth him on every online forum I can - but that's not right. 2 wrongs don't make a right.
How do I come right from this? How do I get a pedal or my money back?
I'm struggling for money currently and can't afford to flush $400 down the toilet.
In my 4 years in the pedal building community I've only had positive experiences with genuine people -
but this is just not right and I have no idea what to do.
For those who are interested, here is the email correspondance copied and pasted from my gmail:
- content edited by admin -
Did you pay him with paypal? If so you have good buyer protection. If you paid him with a credit card you can call them for advice. If you paid with a debit card your bank might help you with a fraud claim.
Quote from: atreidesheir on March 17, 2014, 12:20:42 AM
Did you pay him with paypal? If so you have good buyer protection. If you paid him with a credit card you can call them for advice. If you paid with a debit card your bank might help you with a fraud claim.
I thought the same about paypal, but unfortunately they only allow 45 days to open a dispute. Maybe could try the CC company, but after a year it seems like he might be outta luck.
I hope it gets resolved.
If you have his name and address, you can probably get the cops to go an knock on his door. That might freak him out.
Know any lawyers who will send him a letter on your behalf for free? Even spending $50 on something like that might get you the $400 back, which would be $350 more than you have right now.
Jacob
Sorry I know it doesn't help your situation, but does anyone know what that pedal is based on? Sounds nuts (in a good way) :D
Hope you get your problem sorted.
I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. All too often this becomes an issue with small time builders. They get in over their heads, spend the money and then cannot deliver.
Here are some general tips:
Never, ever ever pre-pay unless you are willing to risk losing all your money.
Alternatively, place a small deposit as a show of good faith. The builder should also provide a good faith estimate on time to completion, with the remainder of the payment being executed then. If the builder is unable to build your pedal without being paid up front in full, that is a HUGE red flag.
If you must pre-pay, then you should stipulate that the order must be received with 45 days. This is your only recourse for disputing through Paypal.
When you get ripped off, report the individual to the Better Business Bureau. Also, contact their state attorney general and/or local police department to report the theft.
I've removed the personal correspondence from the first post. This is not to censor, but rather protect OP. There are unscrupulous people that will sue for slander and posting private communications with that individual on a public forum only serves to worsen your case. FYI.
Where are you from? Drop me a pm, I might be able to help.
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http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/guitar/acapella-29/1784313-
http://www.spokeo.com/search?q=Mark+Shaner,+Boynton+Beach+FL
https://plus.google.com/app/basic/+MarkShaner/posts?cbp=1bplkcxyh4psq&sview=1&cid=5&soc-app=115&soc-platform=1&spath=/app/basic/stream/z12mtdibvt3dyt4tw22ygbdzyvuaetwmj
This is awful. I personally started selling a couple of builds and taking requests and would never let this happen. It only takes one person to ruin a good thing. I never take money until I (can) deliver. It's probably just so this doesn't happen. I am very sorry for your situation and if I could I would lay some good ol' fashion Massachusetts Irish smack down on his ass for you!
That's totally not cool, looks like this isn't the first time he has done this. Also, $400 for an effect that doesn't even have a fabbed board is just crazy. I would try and see if you can get the police to knock on his door or get a letter sent by a lawyer as JMK suggested. You may be able to take him to small claims court as well - even the notion that you are going to do this may "motivate" this individual.
Hey dudes. I am a lawyer. You should call a lawyer in his town and have him send a letter. Or sue him in your town, get a judgement and send it to a lawyer in fl to have him collect on it.
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Quote from: playpunk on March 17, 2014, 03:21:48 PM
Hey dudes. I am a lawyer. You should call a lawyer in his town and have him send a letter. Or sue him in your town, get a judgement and send it to a lawyer in fl to have him collect on it.
I am
not a lawyer, but I would guess that getting a local attorney and an attorney in FL involved would cost more than the damages ($400). Somebody who is tight on cash probably can't afford two lawyers.
I'd love to hear Jon's take on this, since he works for law-mongers. :D
Quote from: culturejam on March 17, 2014, 03:26:36 PM
Quote from: playpunk on March 17, 2014, 03:21:48 PM
Hey dudes. I am a lawyer. You should call a lawyer in his town and have him send a letter. Or sue him in your town, get a judgement and send it to a lawyer in fl to have him collect on it.
I am not a lawyer, but I would guess that getting a local attorney and an attorney in FL involved would cost more than the damages ($400). Somebody who is tight on cash probably can't afford two lawyers.
I'd love to hear Jon's take on this, since he works for law-mongers. :D
Recovery would most likely be contingency. One of the guys in my office is barred in FL. Matt, PM me if you want some contact info.
You might be surprised - you Gould be able to get an enforceable judgment in small claims court, and some attorneys aren't too expensive :)
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Quote from: playpunk on March 17, 2014, 03:36:26 PM
You might be surprised - you Gould be able to get an enforceable judgment in small claims court, and some attorneys aren't too expensive :)
Small claims is a decent option considering the relatively small dollar amount of the damages, but I believe you have to file in the defendant's jurisdiction and then show up there. Or pay an attorney to represent you.
Maybe it's regional, but you can't get a C&D letter sent around here for less than about $500. I have a buddy that would do it for nothing (or maybe a six pack of craft beer), but if anything was needed beyond simply drafting a letter, it would get expensive in a hurry.
Not trying to discourage the OP at all, just trying to be realistic. Everybody says "just sue", but it usually isn't worth it for anything less than at least a few grand (unless you have relative or good friend who will do the attorney work for cheap or free).
Here's my suggestion. It's free, so it's worth exactly what it cost you. ;)
1) Go ahead and assume you are not getting any of your money back. Get your mind at peace with that first. Get rid of the stress it is causing you.
2) This guy has some mentions over at TGP. I would post a thread over there and simply ask if people know how to get in touch with the guy. Explain that you've been waiting a long time, and that you've got money in the game, and that you just want to talk to him to get some idea of when you'll get your pedal. Sit back and see what the responses are. I'll bet other people in the situation will come forward. With enough momentum, you maybe be able to force the guy to surface.
3) Repeat the same thing at Harmony Central, I Love Fuzz, Talk Bass, and any other gear-whore forum you can find. Basically any place where somebody will pay big bucks up front to wait a year or more for a pedal they've never played. There are several such forums.
If the guy ever plans to sell another pedal, he'll have to deal with the threads you've started.
This is very upsetting reading.
The advice here seems sound however.
As many people know I operate a "when I can be bothered" hobby business, sometimes direct to ebay, sometimes at request. In no case do I ever take money up front for a pedal that isn't built, in my hands, working, ready to ship. Ive actually been burned a couple times myself this way - someone has said they want a pedal, I build it, and then when its ready to ship they change their mind.
Luckily it hasnt been something so custom that I cant resell it, or absorb into my own collection.
I think if anyone wanted something so custom it would be hard to resell I may ask for say, good faith of 25% up front with the rest on completion.
anyway, I digress....
Its a shame people like this cunt are making the scene harder for honest people to do business.
I would say use everything at your disposal. Its not a trivial amount of money. But as was also advised, get used to the idea of never seeing the money again and this being a strong life experience episode....
Quote from: rullywowr on March 17, 2014, 02:16:28 PM
$400 for an effect that doesn't even have a fabbed board is just crazy.
For what its worth I saw some production stills on flickr of his stuff and it looks well put together.
so what if its single side PCB? Lovetone were the same, as are others. If its done well, its not a problem for years of service...
Quote from: LaceSensor on March 17, 2014, 06:08:06 PM
In no case do I ever take money up front for a pedal that isn't built, in my hands, working, ready to ship. Ive actually been burned a couple times myself this way - someone has said they want a pedal, I build it, and then when its ready to ship they change their mind.
I have to disagree with you here...
When I do build and/or repair services for people, I ALWAYS ask for the full amount UP FRONT! Of course, I use Paypal for the transaction and I always deliver within the allotted time for resolutions BUT.... I have been burned 2 times by people who want a build and change their minds. Never again! I usually charge the full amount up front with a certain percentage + shipping fees as non-refundable (for parts + bench fee)
Ouch:
http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/guitar/acapella-29/1784313-
I do a happy medium. Half up front, which covers build costs, and half before delivery, which is my profit. Essentially, I don't make money till it ships, and they have power over me if I don't deliver when I say I will.
Jacob
Quote from: LaceSensor on March 17, 2014, 06:08:06 PM
This is very upsetting reading.
The advice here seems sound however.
As many people know I operate a "when I can be bothered" hobby business, sometimes direct to ebay, sometimes at request. In no case do I ever take money up front for a pedal that isn't built, in my hands, working, ready to ship. Ive actually been burned a couple times myself this way - someone has said they want a pedal, I build it, and then when its ready to ship they change their mind.
Luckily it hasnt been something so custom that I cant resell it, or absorb into my own collection.
I think if anyone wanted something so custom it would be hard to resell I may ask for say, good faith of 25% up front with the rest on completion.
This totally. I've never asked for money until it's built and indeed I've ended up out of pocket a couple of times for one reason or another. No one's ever cancelled on me though after I've built something bespoke... Not yet anyhow...
I've only asked for a deposit once and that was the original Andromeda build. The deposit was for the cost of raw parts only. That was slightly different as it was something very specific and custom.
In retrospect, it probably wasn't necessary as I likely could've sold it somewhere else if he had flaked.
I asked for full payment upfront once, I was sure the guy wasn't going to pay it. Sure enough he backed out but then changed his mind a month later. He paid me a little at a time, and when he got it about half paid for, I built it, and held on to it til he paid me off. I was prepared to refund him at anytime. Normally I don't charge upfront for anything though
Quote from: pickdropper on March 17, 2014, 08:02:13 PM
I've only asked for a deposit once and that was the original Andromeda build. The deposit was for the cost of raw parts only.
Yeah, but the cost of knobs alone was like $50. ;D
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on March 17, 2014, 06:42:41 PM
Quote from: LaceSensor on March 17, 2014, 06:08:06 PM
In no case do I ever take money up front for a pedal that isn't built, in my hands, working, ready to ship. Ive actually been burned a couple times myself this way - someone has said they want a pedal, I build it, and then when its ready to ship they change their mind.
I have to disagree with you here...
When I do build and/or repair services for people, I ALWAYS ask for the full amount UP FRONT! Of course, I use Paypal for the transaction and I always deliver within the allotted time for resolutions BUT.... I have been burned 2 times by people who want a build and change their minds. Never again! I usually charge the full amount up front with a certain percentage + shipping fees as non-refundable (for parts + bench fee)
Each to their own
I respect your methods and it's something I might get into, indeed with very bespoke stuff I would do. For regular sought after clones though it's something I take a gamble on. I've been left with a Lovetone clone or two and a deluxe multiplex... Sold them on afterwards again but it's very annoying to dedicate time effort to an agreed upon turnaround then have the person flake out...
of the few pedals I've hawked in my time, they have always been built first. I did a few small 'runs', 5 rangemasters, ff's, tb's or whatever. Sold one at a time on ebay. I'd personally prefer to sell this way, less stress, but that's just how I work.
Anyway, hoping OP gets a resolution from the seller, I can feel your frustration! :(
Ian,
I agree. The only reason I do it that way is because I do not have a lot of time to build now-a-days. So, I really hate it when someone makes a request and then backs out! I could have used that time to spend with my family or to pursue something that interests me.
I consider myself a pretty stand-up guy and I have always delivered on a build within time.
I'm a 25% up front guy to secure a custom build, then full payment when completed. If they back out before delivery then at least materials used are covered. I have not had anyone back out yet on a build though, maybe lucky I guess.
I have a good local reputation with my business and people generally know I deliver as promised and I intend to keep it that way. I just can't imagine doing to someone what the OP is suffering. Just crazy.
Quote from: pryde on March 18, 2014, 02:28:00 AM
I'm a 25% up front guy to secure a custom build, then full payment when completed. If they back out before delivery then at least materials used are covered. I have not had anyone back out yet on a build though, maybe lucky I guess.
I have a good local reputation with my business and people generally know I deliver as promised and I intend to keep it that way. I just can't imagine doing to someone what the OP is suffering. Just crazy.
I don't think there is anything wrong with people taking a deposit to cover materials.
To me, a local shop is much different, though. If I ran a local shop, I would absolutely require a deposit. Too many people flake out. Hell, at the local shop I go to, people leave their guitars for repair for a long time without picking them up. I never quite understood that.
Quote from: pickdropper on March 18, 2014, 02:35:03 AM
Quote from: pryde on March 18, 2014, 02:28:00 AM
I'm a 25% up front guy to secure a custom build, then full payment when completed. If they back out before delivery then at least materials used are covered. I have not had anyone back out yet on a build though, maybe lucky I guess.
I have a good local reputation with my business and people generally know I deliver as promised and I intend to keep it that way. I just can't imagine doing to someone what the OP is suffering. Just crazy.
I don't think there is anything wrong with people taking a deposit to cover materials.
To me, a local shop is much different, though. If I ran a local shop, I would absolutely require a deposit. Too many people flake out. Hell, at the local shop I go to, people leave their guitars for repair for a long time without picking them up. I never quite understood that.
Not to mislead in my post. I do not have a store front-type shop. I do guitar/amp repair (and occasional pedal builds) from my home shop (out building) and work by appointment only. I have been lucky to be in the good graces of many local musicians here and have a solid customer base.
back to topic: Of course, I would gladly build a pedal for a repeat customer on good faith alone.