Has anyone spent time switching out the op amps on their klon clones? Any advice? I've been using boosts a lot lately with bass to thicken up the sound and just dusted off an old Klon I built from a board that was going around BYOC a while ago.
I also just read a long talkbass post from someone who swears by switching in OPA2134PA and OPA2277PA for the TL072 op amps.
I need to order those two and give it a shot, but wanted to just see what people have tried.
For this build, I've already switched in caps that are better for bass frequencies.
I've tried the Burr Brown chips. It sounded nice, but so did the TL072. Only your ears can tell you if it's worth it. 👍🏻
Do you remember how the sound was different at all?
Here's what I've read by one person about the switch... haven't read about anyone else switching so just wanted to see if there's some perspective here:
OPA2134PA OPA2277PA
This is the one for bass guitar. The key seems to be setting the basic voice in the buffer, then retaining the desireable harmonic content of the overdrive post clipping. Also, as other configurations suggested, the two chips, albeit in different sections of the circuit, have to play nicely together sonically. Together, the focus and solidity of the OPA2134AP in the buffer, then the articulate yet thick snarl of the OPA2277PA post clipping, does both really well.
Burr Brown chips are usually designed for fidelity. Do you want more fidelity in your distortion device?
I want to use it more as a boost/tone favor with the Klon flavor but with more mid/bass than treble.
Quote from: dogfish on July 12, 2019, 09:27:26 PM
I want to use it more as a boost/tone favor with the Klon flavor but with more mid/bass than treble.
The boost tone favor with a big Klon flavor...it's not the chip, it's my burr-brown saver. I gots more treble than a lime green saber. Just tube that screamer with a dope fresh neighbor.
Quote from: dogfish on July 12, 2019, 08:25:02 PM
Do you remember how the sound was different at all?
Here's what I've read by one person about the switch... haven't read about anyone else switching so just wanted to see if there's some perspective here:
OPA2134PA OPA2277PA
This is the one for bass guitar. The key seems to be setting the basic voice in the buffer, then retaining the desireable harmonic content of the overdrive post clipping. Also, as other configurations suggested, the two chips, albeit in different sections of the circuit, have to play nicely together sonically. Together, the focus and solidity of the OPA2134AP in the buffer, then the articulate yet thick snarl of the OPA2277PA post clipping, does both really well.
I try not to let myself get dragged into component debates but ... "basic voice in the buffer" What? Let's nod and smile because this is a gift that keeps on giving.
"retaining the desirable harmonic content of the overdrive" ... This is where we hit the whistle and blow the play dead. The very reason those chips are "superior" to a lowly tl072 is that they don't add as much "harmonic content" but we're not done yet because these op amps need to "play nicely together sonically."
the op amps don't care what the next op amp in the circuit is because the stages of the amplifier (remember, that's what this device is) are properly coupled. the "play nicely together" concern would be power-supply driven and who needs more current or voltage or both.
then this person goes on to talk about the snarl of a hi-fi chip ... I just can't
this is diy so do what thou wilt, but breaking the klon down into circuit blocks you've got the first op amp as a buffer and a non-inverting op amp ... the tl072 is a better choice than a hi-fi chip ... certainly going to be more capable of adding harmonic content, if that is your thing and that is going to get clobbered by the hard clipping with low forward voltage that follows
the second op amp is a summing amp and active tone control. there's nothing wrong with going hi-fi so long as you have the power (volts, amps) to do so. cost vs benefit is another matter. also let's not forget that low forward voltage hard clipping that is in line before this ...
I mentioned that twice because certain aspects of design get treated like an afterthought. yeah, you might improve on the purely clean tone of this pedal ever so slightly and you might be golden eared enough to hear it but it doesn't take much turn of the gain knob before the op amp is outputting enough signal to involve the clipping diodes. plus there's three signal paths in this pedal, two of which gain exactly nothing by changing op amps or clipping diodes.
Quote from: lars on July 13, 2019, 08:07:18 AM
The boost tone favor with a big Klon flavor...it's not the chip, it's my burr-brown saver. I gots more treble than a lime green saber. Just tube that screamer with a dope fresh neighbor.
This made my morning.
The description was, um, yeah. Good perspective so far!
Somebody give me a beat!
I sort of figured about the only thing you'd notice about a more upscale chip would be less noise. Given a klone is not a noisy circuit probably little return on the investment.
I should also admit that like a dope, I ordered some new op amps yesterday to test it all first hand.
Quote from: dogfish on July 13, 2019, 04:55:08 PM
I should also admit that like a dope, I ordered some new op amps yesterday to test it all first hand.
That sounds like science. Nothing wrong with that! 8)
Give it a try, but remember confirmation bias. Or whatever it's called.
Like when someone buys a Line 6 Spider and insists it sounds good. (Saying otherwise implies poor investment and judgement on their part.)
I can already hear the difference (pre delivery)!
Quote from: alanp on July 13, 2019, 11:24:16 PM
Like when someone buys a Line 6 Spider and insists it sounds good.
I actually have one of those! I asked my wife to give it away for free through the "Buy Nothing" group she is a part of after I got my $15 Dean amp working. She was unsuccessful. ::)
(http://i.imgur.com/ZVC1ckKl.jpg)
Dogfish, what if you really DO hear something different? Never hurts to try. Seriously. Small investment and klons are the stuff myths are made of, so gives you piece of mind either way.
We shall see. I actually work at a bass shop and hear enough builds that I really can hear the subtlety of some wood combos. I heard an ash body, roasted maple neck, ebony fingerboard J the other day that was really unique. I didn't know exactly what it was when I started playing it but could hear the combo right away... it it's not op amps so we shall see.
Dogfish, keep an eye out for any Black Maire wood -- it's a New Zealand native that is hard enough for fretboards.
We did build a J5 with an Aussie red gum top recently:
https://www.sadowsky.com/product/8258-standard-5-string-j-bass/
Nice! Well, let me know if you do pick up any New Zealand timber, then :)
Rimu is beautiful as furniture -- I have a cab for my JCM800 done in rimu. Totara has been used as flooring, as it's pretty tough. Kauri has also been used for flooring, but it's wasting the wood to do that. Matai was a very popular flooring material. Most of these are reclaimed timber these days -- you cannot cut down native trees without a really good reason.
Black Maire is apparently the only native NZ timber that can hold a machined thread, if that helps any. It's popular as firewood, as it takes a long time for a log to burn down, and gives off a lot of heat.
Quote from: thesmokingman on July 13, 2019, 02:06:19 PM
I try not to let myself get dragged into component debates but ...
Your breakdown of op amps was very good.
The thing I've noticed on a regular basis is that when unbiased professionals run tests on "Hi-Fi" op amps, they always come to the same results: the lowly NE5532 is by far the best cost to sound quality chip available. Nothing in it's price range can match it, and spending 10x the price of a 5532 does not get you 10x better results. As far as op amps in overdrive/distortion pedals, anything other than a 741, 1458, LM308, or 4558 is pretty much overkill and will give you less of what you want. IMHO, TL072's or better give you everything that people complain about in solid state equipment in the first place...sterile "perfect" clean sound. Yes, uber high quality op amps can be beneficial in a delay, chorus, or flanger pedal where you don't want to add any noise...but there's really no reason to go above and beyond the 5532 in those cases. And in many pedal designs, just throwing a 5532 in place of say a 4558 will often add more noise because it wasn't designed for a 5532 or burr-brown super chip.
I've found BJT input opamps sound different (usually warmer) to FET opamps, Slew rate differences can effect things too. There's just different shades of grey to component selection within working reason. Some don't hear any differences at all.. I do..
Quote from: lars on July 14, 2019, 09:08:53 PM
Quote from: thesmokingman on July 13, 2019, 02:06:19 PM
I try not to let myself get dragged into component debates but ...
Your breakdown of op amps was very good.
The thing I've noticed on a regular basis is that when unbiased professionals run tests on "Hi-Fi" op amps, they always come to the same results: the lowly NE5532 is by far the best cost to sound quality chip available. Nothing in it's price range can match it, and spending 10x the price of a 5532 does not get you 10x better results. As far as op amps in overdrive/distortion pedals, anything other than a 741, 1458, LM308, or 4558 is pretty much overkill and will give you less of what you want. IMHO, TL072's or better give you everything that people complain about in solid state equipment in the first place...sterile "perfect" clean sound. Yes, uber high quality op amps can be beneficial in a delay, chorus, or flanger pedal where you don't want to add any noise...but there's really no reason to go above and beyond the 5532 in those cases. And in many pedal designs, just throwing a 5532 in place of say a 4558 will often add more noise because it wasn't designed for a 5532 or burr-brown super chip.
Do you have links to any of the articles where the audio professionals discuss the NE5532 in that context? I'm honestly curious to read that. I've used a lot of pricier opamps in audio contexts and they are often unnecessary, but there are a lot of considerations besides bandwidth (where chips such as the 741 are obviously terrible).
Quote from: pickdropper on July 21, 2019, 12:58:27 AM
Do you have links to any of the articles where the audio professionals discuss the NE5532 in that context? I'm honestly curious to read that. I've used a lot of pricier opamps in audio contexts and they are often unnecessary, but there are a lot of considerations besides bandwidth (where chips such as the 741 are obviously terrible).
The obvious answer is go discrete! Just ludicrously inflate the part count and target that hardcore cork sniffer crowd, and laugh at every invoice!
Quote from: gordo on July 14, 2019, 01:54:27 AM
Dogfish, what if you really DO hear something different? Never hurts to try. Seriously. Small investment and klons are the stuff myths are made of, so gives you piece of mind either way.
I did do the Burr Brown opamp switch last night. Keep in mind that I'm playing on bass, so for me, a smoother, fuller clipping is optimal.
The boost sounded a little clearer and better to me... more hi-fi. Though from reading this thread, that sounds almost impossible technically, so I'll chalk that one up to confirmation bias.
However, when I turned the knob towards clipping, it was a smoother, less bee-buzzy clip than with the TL072. That sounded "better" to me in the context of what I'm looking for for bass which is a light fuzz/clip with some prounounced mids to cut through a mix but still retain some lows. With the Burr Browns, the clip was closer to that. To my ears, with the TL072, it just went straight into bee-buzzy territory right away. I'm pretty sure that this was not confirmation bias as I switched them in and out a few times and anytime I had a TL072 in the circuit, the clipping was harsher.
There ya go...