My friend just got his hands on one of these and it works but sounds pretty bad. Asked me to take a look at it to see if I could get it working better. Thought you guys might enjoy the pics of how big this beast is. To learn more about the product. http://www.gilmourish.com/?page_id=77. Apparently designed by a guy who designed a lot of electro harmonix pedals. I have no idea where to start. I'm guessing recapping the whole thing
My hand on it is a reference for how big it is
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/923/2gfdZ0.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/pn2gfdZ0j)
Look at all those diodes
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/fDSV2z.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/pnfDSV2zj)
Are those all diodes there on the left? :o
Quote from: somnif on February 03, 2019, 07:39:19 PM
Are those all diodes there on the left? :o
yes. all 1n4148s
also 9 ca3080. lots of compressors to be made if in the end this thing is not fixable
Be very, very careful:
https://reverb.com/ca/item/1567718-original-ems-synthi-hi-fli-analog-guitar-synth-effects-ultra-rare-exc-vtg-cond
There is no "cannot fix it" at that price point. ;D
Quote from: Marshall Arts on February 03, 2019, 07:53:49 PM
Be very, very careful:
https://reverb.com/ca/item/1567718-original-ems-synthi-hi-fli-analog-guitar-synth-effects-ultra-rare-exc-vtg-cond
There is no "cannot fix it" at that price point. ;D
Holy sh*t
http://jbemond.free.fr/SDIY/EMS/EMS_Hifli.pdf
Circuit notes and schematic if you want to poke around. Scan quality sucks, unfortunately, but its something to work from.
More discussion: https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=94294.0
And more still: https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=73726.0
Quote from: somnif on February 03, 2019, 08:04:23 PM
http://jbemond.free.fr/SDIY/EMS/EMS_Hifli.pdf
Circuit notes and schematic if you want to poke around. Scan quality sucks, unfortunately, but its something to work from.
More discussion: https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=94294.0
And more still: https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=73726.0
thanks. that'll be helpfull. over 200 diodes in the phaser part of the pedal!
According to slacker from diystompboxes
"The phaser is the same basic design as things like the Phase 45 and Phase 90, but instead of using JFets as voltage controlled resistors it used the string of diodes instead.
The way the diodes act as a voltage controlled resistor is something like this, each diode drops about 0.6 volts across it and this is near enough constant for different currents. Mr Ohm tells us V = IR so if V is constant then as I increases R must decrease, so the resistance of the string of diodes is inversely proportional to the current through it, so by varying the current you vary the resistance.
This is used in a number of synth designs, like the Steiner Synthacon filter, the classic Moog filter does essentially the same thing but with transistors instead of diodes. In diystompbox land Tim Escobedo's Quick and Dirty VCFs use the same trick."
Holy shit, I'd love to trace this. I have a set of documents which might be helpful, they include the schematics but the quality is too poor to make sense of for a reliable read.
I just realized it has a "Meow" setting.
...I love this.
Quote from: PMowdes on February 03, 2019, 10:15:21 PM
Holy shit, I'd love to trace this. I have a set of documents which might be helpful, they include the schematics but the quality is too poor to make sense of for a reliable read.
I think sonic posted that schematic. It's kinda hard to read in parts.
Maybe we can figure something out. My friend is not in desperate need to get it back as soon as possible. All the faders are broken so I need to figure how to replace them. But they work sliding empty with a screw driver.
The fuzz and octave down parts work and sound pretty great.
Kinda weird with the foot pedal. It's not like an expression pedal. You can program to turn effects on or off in the up and down positions.
Quote from: bsoncini on February 03, 2019, 10:58:39 PM
Quote from: PMowdes on February 03, 2019, 10:15:21 PM
Holy shit, I'd love to trace this. I have a set of documents which might be helpful, they include the schematics but the quality is too poor to make sense of for a reliable read.
I think sonic posted that schematic. It's kinda hard to read in parts.
Maybe we can figure something out. My friend is not in desperate need to get it back as soon as possible. All the faders are broken so I need to figure how to replace them. But they work sliding empty with a screw driver.
The fuzz and octave down parts work and sound pretty great.
Kinda weird with the foot pedal. It's not like an expression pedal. You can program to turn effects on or off in the up and down positions.
Yeah that document has been around a while,. Dino and I talked about buying one to trace it.
Some decent photos would be a great place to start. Are the boards all soldered together on those headers?
Yeah. The headers are soldered in. But there are no components hidden on the board below. All the pots, faders and switches are on the other side of that board.
I can take as many pics as you want
Welp, I repaired an A/DA Harmony Synth *rolls up sleeves* (hard not to brag on that one ;D )
David Cockerell design I believe, if you're studying sections the V1 small stone and V1 micro synth will probably be handy references.
Given the size and age, a full electro recap is probably a very good port of call and a full set of voltages of all the CA3080 with all the sliders up and all of them down... probably best to number them in an image file.
Edit: And static voltages of any other op amp or whatever chips are in there.
Quote from: bsoncini on February 03, 2019, 11:31:39 PM
Yeah. The headers are soldered in. But there are no components hidden on the board below. All the pots, faders and switches are on the other side of that board.
I can take as many pics as you want
If you have to take the boards apart to get to the bits you need to repair then a colour photocopy of the top and bottom of each board would be incredibly useful, we could flip the images and superimposed them to get a better idea of the topology.
This one is on my bucket list. Having cheated death once already, I say that in the most sincere way. This needs to be traced proper. Somebody please trace this before I die. Again.
I can give it a go at tracing but having never traced a pedal before to tracing this beast is quite the jump.
Unless anyone else in Europe is up to the task I can ask my friend if it's ok with him to loan it out. He'd probably say yes if that person was willing to repair it too.
As for scanning the pcbs I'll see what I can do. Any idea to separate the boards with soldered headers?
You really need to see both sides of the pcbs to be able to trace it. Getting them apart is going to be a seriously difficult job, but if you want to replace the damaged sliders then you are going to have to do it anyway.
The easiest way would be to cut the headers and replace them but easiest isn't always best. Last thing you want to do is damage it further.
Quote from: PMowdes2 on February 04, 2019, 02:12:13 PM
The easiest way would be to cut the headers and replace them but easiest isn't always best. Last thing you want to do is damage it further.
I'd second doing it that way, if you try and de-solder them with the boards connected you'll probably end up flexing the boards more than would be advisable with those old style tracks.
I see it has a few of those old white sockets too, I've found them very sturdy but the contacts often tarnish IME so they're worth cleaning.
Scruffie how would you advise cleaning them? And they are sockets as in if I pull on the ic it will come out?
This thing has definately been worked on before there are some standoffs missing. There are definately some bad contacts also. If I touch the board right I get phasing. Seems like all the wave forms work as well as the different phase modes. Can't say I've heard anything that sounds like meow yet though. The growl switch seems completely worthless. Just makes it sound like water bubbling maybe I'm missing something
I'm sure there are other ways but in the past I've just used a dab of contact cleaner and either a broken IC or something with a sturdy lead to work it in a little and wiped it out with a cotton bud.
That'll be fun to re-flow all those joints ;D
deleted
Quote from: digi2t on February 05, 2019, 01:36:27 AM
Quote from: bsoncini on February 04, 2019, 12:47:30 PM
I can give it a go at tracing but having never traced a pedal before to tracing this beast is quite the jump.
Unless anyone else in Europe is up to the task I can ask my friend if it's ok with him to loan it out. He'd probably say yes if that person was willing to repair it too.
As for scanning the pcbs I'll see what I can do. Any idea to separate the boards with soldered headers?
This is getting interesting
I would be up for tracing and repair, but I'm in Canada.
Man it would be epic if we could get this traced and get some pcb's fabricated. Dino and I have just finished a BiPhase clone and I was sooo excited that we got it working, but a Synthi clone would just be so awesome. I cant think of anything that comes close to this except perhaps the Ludwig Phase II.
As a test yesterday I traced the preamp in the foot pedal. It matches up with the available schematic. Which is readable. Nothing sexy or exciting about the preamp but it's a start.
The fuzz is pretty cool. If you put the rise time to slow the fuzz fades in. Don't think I've seen that in a fuzz before
Some more pics. Other side of the pcb and the preamp. Never looked for faders before. Easy to find replacements?
Some of the headers on the bottom right side are green. I'm not even sue there is a pad there anymore
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/N3fNJY.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/poN3fNJYj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/924/Df3q22.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/poDf3q22j)
Quote from: bsoncini on February 05, 2019, 06:25:20 PM
Never looked for faders before. Easy to find replacements?
Not always but sometimes you can find something close enough, firstly what brand are they? Then you'll want to measure the dimensions and take note of how the pins are grouped.
Quote from: Scruffie on February 05, 2019, 07:34:11 PM
Quote from: bsoncini on February 05, 2019, 06:25:20 PM
Never looked for faders before. Easy to find replacements?
Not always but sometimes you can find something close enough, firstly what brand are they? Then you'll want to measure the dimensions and take note of how the pins are grouped.
The faders say AB made in the uk. Allen Bradley?
The good news is the headers arent actually soldered. They are these scissor things that clip the boards together and thé board came apart easily
Quote from: bsoncini on February 05, 2019, 07:53:17 PM
Quote from: Scruffie on February 05, 2019, 07:34:11 PM
Quote from: bsoncini on February 05, 2019, 06:25:20 PM
Never looked for faders before. Easy to find replacements?
Not always but sometimes you can find something close enough, firstly what brand are they? Then you'll want to measure the dimensions and take note of how the pins are grouped.
The faders say AB made in the uk. Allen Bradley?
The good news is the headers arent actually soldered. They are these scissor things that clip the boards together and thé board came apart easily
Not a UK company but I suppose they might have had a UK base but if they did make sliders, doesn't look like they do any more.
If you use mouser you can just put in the height, length, width and slide-travel dimensions and cross your fingers something matches up.
Quote from: bsoncini on February 05, 2019, 07:53:17 PM
Quote from: Scruffie on February 05, 2019, 07:34:11 PM
Quote from: bsoncini on February 05, 2019, 06:25:20 PM
Never looked for faders before. Easy to find replacements?
Not always but sometimes you can find something close enough, firstly what brand are they? Then you'll want to measure the dimensions and take note of how the pins are grouped.
The faders say AB made in the uk. Allen Bradley?
The good news is the headers arent actually soldered. They are these scissor things that clip the boards together and thé board came apart easily
That's great news, can you get images of both sides of each board??
I think finding replacement sliders is gonna be tricky, is there any indication of what alues they are??
Quote from: PMowdes2 on February 06, 2019, 08:38:46 AM
Quote from: bsoncini on February 05, 2019, 07:53:17 PM
Quote from: Scruffie on February 05, 2019, 07:34:11 PM
Quote from: bsoncini on February 05, 2019, 06:25:20 PM
Never looked for faders before. Easy to find replacements?
Not always but sometimes you can find something close enough, firstly what brand are they? Then you'll want to measure the dimensions and take note of how the pins are grouped.
The faders say AB made in the uk. Allen Bradley?
The good news is the headers arent actually soldered. They are these scissor things that clip the boards together and thé board came apart easily
That's great news, can you get images of both sides of each board??
I think finding replacement sliders is gonna be tricky, is there any indication of what alues they are??
The values for the sliders and the taper is written on the board. I would design an adapter board, if you don't find perfect replacements.
Quote from: PMowdes2 on February 06, 2019, 08:38:46 AM
Quote from: bsoncini on February 05, 2019, 07:53:17 PM
Quote from: Scruffie on February 05, 2019, 07:34:11 PM
Quote from: bsoncini on February 05, 2019, 06:25:20 PM
Never looked for faders before. Easy to find replacements?
Not always but sometimes you can find something close enough, firstly what brand are they? Then you'll want to measure the dimensions and take note of how the pins are grouped.
The faders say AB made in the uk. Allen Bradley?
The good news is the headers arent actually soldered. They are these scissor things that clip the boards together and thé board came apart easily
That's great news, can you get images of both sides of each board??
I think finding replacement sliders is gonna be tricky, is there any indication of what alues they are??
I already took the pics. Send me your email by PM and I'll send them to you
Yes the values are written on the PCB next to the faders.
Email sent :)
Pics sent. Let me know if you need any help tracing it or verifying values for you
Maybe we should start a thread at diystompboxes on this? Get more people involved in it
Quote from: bsoncini on February 06, 2019, 10:11:57 AM
Pics sent. Let me know if you need any help tracing it or verifying values for you
Maybe we should start a thread at diystompboxes on this? Get more people involved in it
Thanks, I will have a look at them tonight.
I'll leave it up to you about the thread on DIY. I think there is probably enough experience on here to make some progress on this so long as you are happy to poke about with a multimeter and check continuity for the bits we cant figure out from the photo's
Lol i love all this detective work ^^ maybe we are seeing the birth of a futur deadend effects project :)
Quote from: Yahoo67 on February 06, 2019, 11:15:52 AM
Lol i love all this detective work ^^ maybe we are seeing the birth of a futur deadend effects project :)
I had a go at overlaying the board images last night and it was a little tricky since the camera wasn't fixed and the perspective / scale changes slightly. It should be doable, but it is going to take some time.
I can try to take other photos if you want but it'll probably be the same since my only camera is a smartphone.
I tried to see if I could scan the boards. It worked ok but I can't get the board flat with the headers in place
Quote from: bsoncini on February 07, 2019, 11:53:07 AM
I can try to take other photos if you want but it'll probably be the same since my only camera is a smartphone.
I tried to see if I could scan the boards. It worked ok but I can't get the board flat with the headers in place
Can you prop the board up so at least the board is flat?? Would that work?? or at least if you are using the camera hold it steady with a tripod and move the board underneath, that way the scale and angle of view are consistant
I'll try to prop it up tonight.
I don't have a tripod
Quote from: bsoncini on February 07, 2019, 12:53:12 PM
I'll try to prop it up tonight.
I don't have a tripod
No worries, and thanks for trying. Dino and I will go over the schematics and board images we have and see what we can do with what we have got.
@bsoncini
I have found the easiest way to get PCBs into the comp is with a scanner, if you have one.
I put the PCB on the scanner, put a white towel or piece of material over it, and scan away.
The size is usually right so no extra manipulation of the image.
Hope this helps
Peter
Maiking some progress, we have schematics for the preamp, phaser, vibrato. And i'm about half way through the fuzz board. Just the controls to do after that
Quote from: PMowdes on February 10, 2019, 09:29:22 PM
Maiking some progress, we have schematics for the preamp, phaser, vibrato. And i'm about half way through the fuzz board. Just the controls to do after that
Note to self, buy a few pounds of 4148s.....
This is epic. Since this thread has been going I have had memories of "Live At Pompeii" going on in the background of my brain. Time to rewatch that classic. I will definitely jump for this project if it goes on Deadend Fx.
Quote from: digi2t on February 04, 2019, 12:23:29 PM
This one is on my bucket list. Having cheated death once already, I say that in the most sincere way. This needs to be traced proper. Somebody please trace this before I die. Again.
Hi folks,
not that I am an electronics engineer nor that kind of blogger and forum writer, but as long-time forum reader I cook effects since end of 2011. Cloning the HiFli is a long-time project of mine. I used the crappy service manual on the web and cooked up first stripboard/vero layouts (gee, these gonna be very big with a shit-load of diodes) but got stuck at some points thanks to the poor quality of the pdf file. I collected as much pictures of gutshots as I could get the past yyears, but never have seen good quality pictures of the trace-side of the boards.
The HiFli seems to be quite interresting, but I have a more modified and more advanced second version in mind too, that would take that beauty to much higher places in the ranking (better signal filtering and a more modular design, maybe something like a patch matrix board aka Synthi VCS3 or AKA or so). But that might be a later story.
I used Libreoffice calc-sheets for developing layouts - because it is quite easy to copy and paste and modify things in these sheets and the layout was intended for my needs. I plan to cut and solder a first stripboard as soon my questions are answered and the layout fixed according to these answers (I got the most need parts allready - except the power transformer and huge power-filter caps).
Juergen Haible made a clone of the Hifli, but unfortunately he died a few months before I started my project and thus I wasn't able to contact him nomore. His clone has been sold before and I wasn't able to get in touch with the present owner.
I asked Ralf Hoffmann aka Randomsource, who obtained the electronic heritage Juergen left, to have a look into his paperwork and files on the Hifli. But got no useful info unfortunately. Maybe he holds them back in order not to get in conflict with Digitana.
Digitana Electronics is remaking the Hifli at the moment (but the lists of preorders is terrible long and the costs a blow) - obviously under license by Robin Wood. I asked Mr. Wood for help with some questions on my project - but he refused to help, which I can understand, too. Ludwig Rehberg, who worked with EMS before, did not provide any info, because when he left EMS he agreed with Mr. Wood not to do so. So Mr. Wood holds all info and files from the EMS side. I wasn't able to get in contact with Mr. David Cockerell - as far as I know he developed the Hifli.
I guess, there are no existing legal rights on the Hifli regarding patents and such nomore, as these must have been expired long ago. The only rights there might be out there are copyrights on schematics, pcb layouts, brand names and manuals. So I think a selfmade vero layout of that beauty would be legal, as long the brand is avoided in the project and no commercial profit made. So I propose to create a new name for the project first.
Dino - I appreciate Your work for the DIY community (I've built almost everything of Your work) and I am happy to read that Your health has recovered so far. I am willing to share my work with You and the folks here as a token of respect and a gift - if You like and if it is of use...
Maybe we get a vero layout faster than a pcb that way (I do't say that a pcb is useless though).
What do You say, guys - interested in?
Regards!
JustALittleSolderBoy
Vero layout of this thing? You are nuts
Ok, got all the schematics done except the controls board. Time to start getting stuff checked over.
Quote from: bsoncini on February 13, 2019, 10:54:19 PM
Vero layout of this thing? You are nuts
Yepp - vero! Maybe I am nuts, but I have no knowledge in designing proper pcb boards and in tools like eagle and such. So vero is the only way to go for me - unless there is a pcb available. My etching pcb experience is " too basic".
At the moment the layout of my phaser board is 52 rows x 94 holes. There are different versions of the fuzz board - the smallest is 52 rows x 76 holes.
The pedal board is 9 rows x 21 holes and so it should fit into every Crybaby-like wah shell.
The numbers of rows of both the larger boards is equal, because I intend to mount them like a sandwich. I don't plan to make a seperate wiring board for the pots and switches - parts of these are on the fuzz and phaser boards and some parts will be soldered to the pins of the mounted switches and pots.
Some parts are obsolete and will be hard to get: the N558V/NTE778A should be a standard 1458 dual opamps. EMS themselves used LM1458 in later versions of the Hifli. I think about using NE5532 instead.
But other parts are more tricky:
C746 (A6, A16 fuzz board) are almost inpossible to get - I think about LM194H/LM394H metal can devices here. I thought about matching my own FETs with a PEAK DCA70 and make some clamps from metal sheet myself...
For TIS70 (A17 fuzz board) maybe a BFS21A is worth a try?
What whould You use for 7474 (A9 fuzzboard)? Is it a HD74LS74A?
The 2N5163 FETs will be hard to get, but there a lot of possible candidates to try - 5458, 2N3819, 5958, BF245A(GSD), MPF-102(DSG), 2N3822, KP303I, BFW11,
BF245A (GSD), 5458 (GSD). So pinout may be changed on the boards.
There are some points in the service manual where I am not certain due to the poor quality of the manual. I refer to the pdf-file from http://jbemond.free.fr/SDIY/EMS/EMS_Hifli.pdf:
1) The center pole of the SW3 modulation switch (SP3T) connects to #20 of the wiring board schematic. From there it should go to the unreadable # on the phase card schematic (lower right corner of the schematic in the pdf). From there it goes to R23 2,7K. But where from there? +12V or -12V? The handwriting there is unreadable...
2) In the fuzz card schematic there is a R108 to LED1 #8 (near lower left corner of the schematic in the pdf). The resistance of R108 - 3,3K?
3) In the fuzz card schematic there is a R105 below D15 near R108, R106 & R107 (near lower left corner of the schematic in the pdf - connects to transient vibrato too). The resistance of R105 - 27K?
4) There are pictures of the phase board where a wire goes from #20 of the phase card some where around A2 (Dual Opamp) on the phase board. Is it really A2 and where exactly leads the wire to and is there another resistor (resistance?) added?
5) There are pictures of the fuzz board where a wire jumps from #13 to A10 (3080) on the part side of the board. Where does the trace near the 3080 lead to?
6) In the schematic of the fuzz card (the upper right side) it is quite hard to read the traces around #22, 21, 19, 18, 20 and just below the 5-6-7 opamp triangle of A5 and Q1 (BC169C) around Q10 (10uF tantal) and the 470K to +12V. It is hard to decipher, what is a connection and where traces cross each other only. Maybe someone has a readable schematic or high quality pictures of the solder and part sides of the boards?
Maybe some of these questions may show my stupidity in Your eye, but as I told You before - I am a total newbie when it comes to electronics.
Any hints or comments, folks?
Quote from: JustALittleSolderBoy on February 14, 2019, 08:43:35 AM
Quote from: bsoncini on February 13, 2019, 10:54:19 PM
Vero layout of this thing? You are nuts
Yepp - vero! Maybe I am nuts, but I have no knowledge in designing proper pcb boards and in tools like eagle and such. So vero is the only way to go for me - unless there is a pcb available. My etching pcb experience is " too basic".
At the moment the layout of my phaser board is 52 rows x 94 holes. There are different versions of the fuzz board - the smallest is 52 rows x 76 holes.
The pedal board is 9 rows x 21 holes and so it should fit into every Crybaby-like wah shell.
The numbers of rows of both the larger boards is equal, because I intend to mount them like a sandwich. I don't plan to make a seperate wiring board for the pots and switches - parts of these are on the fuzz and phaser boards and some parts will be soldered to the pins of the mounted switches and pots.
Some parts are obsolete and will be hard to get: the N558V/NTE778A should be a standard 1458 dual opamps. EMS themselves used LM1458 in later versions of the Hifli. I think about using NE5532 instead.
But other parts are more tricky:
C746 (A6, A16 fuzz board) are almost inpossible to get - I think about LM194H/LM394H metal can devices here. I thought about matching my own FETs with a PEAK DCA70 and make some clamps from metal sheet myself...
For TIS70 (A17 fuzz board) maybe a BFS21A is worth a try?
What whould You use for 7474 (A9 fuzzboard)? Is it a HD74LS74A?
The 2N5163 FETs will be hard to get, but there a lot of possible candidates to try - 5458, 2N3819, 5958, BF245A(GSD), MPF-102(DSG), 2N3822, KP303I, BFW11,
BF245A (GSD), 5458 (GSD). So pinout may be changed on the boards.
There are some points in the service manual where I am not certain due to the poor quality of the manual. I refer to the pdf-file from http://jbemond.free.fr/SDIY/EMS/EMS_Hifli.pdf:
1) The center pole of the SW3 modulation switch (SP3T) connects to #20 of the wiring board schematic. From there it should go to the unreadable # on the phase card schematic (lower right corner of the schematic in the pdf). From there it goes to R23 2,7K. But where from there? +12V or -12V? The handwriting there is unreadable...
2) In the fuzz card schematic there is a R108 to LED1 #8 (near lower left corner of the schematic in the pdf). The resistance of R108 - 3,3K?
3) In the fuzz card schematic there is a R105 below D15 near R108, R106 & R107 (near lower left corner of the schematic in the pdf - connects to transient vibrato too). The resistance of R105 - 27K?
4) There are pictures of the phase board where a wire goes from #20 of the phase card some where around A2 (Dual Opamp) on the phase board. Is it really A2 and where exactly leads the wire to and is there another resistor (resistance?) added?
5) There are pictures of the fuzz board where a wire jumps from #13 to A10 (3080) on the part side of the board. Where does the trace near the 3080 lead to?
6) In the schematic of the fuzz card (the upper right side) it is quite hard to read the traces around #22, 21, 19, 18, 20 and just below the 5-6-7 opamp triangle of A5 and Q1 (BC169C) around Q10 (10uF tantal) and the 470K to +12V. It is hard to decipher, what is a connection and where traces cross each other only. Maybe someone has a readable schematic or high quality pictures of the solder and part sides of the boards?
Maybe some of these questions may show my stupidity in Your eye, but as I told You before - I am a total newbie when it comes to electronics.
Any hints or comments, folks?
We got this bro, we've generated cleaned up versions of the schematics in the service manual based on Brent's photo's. And we are in the process of putting them into Eagle so we can make some pcb's. Once we have everything checked over maybe we can answer your questions. You are mad trying to do this on vero though :)
Quote from: PMowdes2 on February 14, 2019, 11:24:02 AM
Quote from: JustALittleSolderBoy on February 14, 2019, 08:43:35 AM
Quote from: bsoncini on February 13, 2019, 10:54:19 PM
Vero layout of this thing? You are nuts
...blubbdidubb...
We got this bro, we've generated cleaned up versions of the schematics in the service manual based on Brent's photo's. And we are in the process of putting them into Eagle so we can make some pcb's. Once we have everything checked over maybe we can answer your questions. You are mad trying to do this on vero though :)
Thanks Phil! Maybe YOU can help me find the answers I need!
As soon Your design of the PCB is finished, then I am interested in two of these boards of course (a "DoubleFli" would be gosh, wouldn't it!?).
But a vero has its advantages, too - it would be much easier to mod it. Here are some mods I think about:
-possible remote-ports for most the tapers and switches (ED Tap-Tempo; remote pedals)
-send-return-jacks
-listen-in-switch into the stages of the phaser section - maybe more phase stages on a seperate daughter-board can be added!?
-signal injection/ejection/connection points to add tap-tempo, sequencers; maybe signal-filters/splitters, maybe VCFCLFO, VCADSR (ED-Druid), SFH. The possibilities are endless. Ghielmetti like patch-matrix with buffers like for the AKS would be cool to split and mix signals.
I think this baby is a gold mine of sounds never heard before and there is much more beyond to be discovered...
I may share some files and some snapshots of the progress of my layouts if You like. I am not that great web user and never posted files nor pictures here before. Is it possible to upload files here or is there a reliable service (that doesn't give away everything to Google Ltd. & Co)? Or may somebody my upload on my behalf? Any help will please...
Quote from: JustALittleSolderBoy on February 14, 2019, 08:43:35 AM
But other parts are more tricky:
C746 (A6, A16 fuzz board) are almost inpossible to get - I think about LM194H/LM394H metal can devices here. I thought about matching my own FETs with a PEAK DCA70
The 2C746 is a matched pair of BJTs, not FETs. You can still find SOME matched dual BJTs on Mouser, but they are ludicrously expensive. Probably easier to just play the old "I'm building an octave fuzz" game and hand matching some. They do lave a very low hfe, which could be tricky, but I'd honestly try something like 2n3904s or 2n2222s.
Could also, if desperate, try some SMT matched pairs, those are fairly readily available.
Yepp, you are right! My mistake - these are matched pairs of BJT of course. It should be easy to get matched pairs with a tester like Peak DCA. I ment TIS70 and not C746...
About the low hfe: I read somewhere some comments on some russian Germanium transistors, that have leak resistors built-in to ged rid of leakage. Someone hinted at the fact, that adding such resistors would lower the hfe of the transistor - thus all of these Russian babies concerned have fairly low hfe. Maybe we might be able to lower the hfe of these BJT to the level needed by adding such resistors?
And maybe TIS70 can be replaced by DIY matched pairs, too?
Quote from: JustALittleSolderBoy on February 15, 2019, 07:11:04 AM
And maybe TIS70 can be replaced by DIY matched pairs, too?
FETs are a bit voodoo in terms of what characteristics matter about them in audio situations (to me, anyway, I'm a biochemist not an engineer). But in terms of matching, its interesting.
For Phasers, the quick and easy method is to match the Vgs(off), and you typically want to get them to within ~10mV. The TIS70's FETs, by its datasheet, are matched within 32mV, so that would be easy enough with our current methods.
If you use the "Greatly improved JFET matcher" circuit and can measure Idss, then you'd look for an 80% or better similarity (Idss1/Idss2 >= 0.8). Again, not terribly difficult, though finding a pair where both these parameters are met can start to get hairy.
So all told, assuming we can find JFETs that match those characteristics found in the TIS70, finding a matched pair wouldn't be impossible (I think). The 2n5457 and 2n5458 have a similar range of specs for Vgs(off), Igss, and Idss and they're still readily available in SMT format (MMBF5457/8), though I'm not sure how you would set up the thermal pairing clip for surface mount stuff (little daughter board with them on one side and warm resistor on the other? dunno).
But again, I spend my days torturing yeast, so I'm not the expert to talk to about JFET cork sniffing. I shall leave that to the gurus. I'm attaching the TIS70 data sheet if you feel like some light reading.
Bytheway - on his website www.phutney.com Derek Revell suggests to use LM394CH and 2N2916 as possible substitutes for 2C746 for is EMS Synthi clone Phutney!
Quote from: PMowdes2 on February 14, 2019, 11:24:02 AM
We got this bro, we've generated cleaned up versions of the schematics in the service manual based on Brent's photo's. And we are in the process of putting them into Eagle so we can make some pcb's. Once we have everything checked over maybe we can answer your questions. You are mad trying to do this on vero though :)
Hi Phil,
only want to ask for an update - how is the progress regarding Your Hifli schematic?
Are You ready to answer my questions?
Regards!
Quote from: JustALittleSolderBoy on February 25, 2019, 02:25:22 PM
Quote from: PMowdes2 on February 14, 2019, 11:24:02 AM
We got this bro, we've generated cleaned up versions of the schematics in the service manual based on Brent's photo's. And we are in the process of putting them into Eagle so we can make some pcb's. Once we have everything checked over maybe we can answer your questions. You are mad trying to do this on vero though :)
Hi Phil,
only want to ask for an update - how is the progress regarding Your Hifli schematic?
Are You ready to answer my questions?
Regards!
We have finished the schematics and i'm in the process of laying out the pcb's. It's slow going not least because I have no idea what size enclosure I can get it into.
Drop me a PM and i'll see if I can answer some of your questions
Phil
Hi Phil,
that is good news! I will have a look into my HiFli files again and gather all the questions I have. I will send You a PM as soon I have everything.
Regards!
Here's a progess update
The top board which is the psu and phaser
(http://i.postimg.cc/tRVQ2L11/Synthi-Top-board.png)
One of the two identical diode ladders
(http://i.postimg.cc/90HxxgST/Synthi-diode-ladders-smd2.png)
And the pedal preamp
(http://i.postimg.cc/Zq9VJhzp/Synthi-Pickup-amp.png)
Just the bottom fuzz / vibrato board to go
Please tell me that the diode ladder won't use smd diodes. It sure looks like smd in that picture.
Quote from: skyled on March 09, 2019, 08:54:05 AM
Please tell me that the diode ladder won't use smd diodes. It sure looks like smd in that picture.
Afraid so, only way to keep the size down to something less than a football pitch. We are thinking of getting these fabricated assembled, it will add some additional cost but a whole lot less headache
Good work Phil!
Obviously as You want to finish this project before I do, I've changed my mind and layed my vero-project on ice until You finished Yours. Anyway I work on other projects too and as I waited so long, well, it doesn't matter if I wait a little longer.
The original HiFli enclosure is quite large. You want to keep the pcbs as small as possible.
However many may not have the tools for SMD soldering nor a reflow oven (I don't have one, too). But that doesn't mean, that they will not be able to build it with Your boards in the end: the diode ladder is the most easiest part to build. 2 sections with 12 ladders with 10 diodes each are needed. On my vero layout this section comes to 13 rows x 36 holes per section only. So for example a vero-board as a workaround for BOTH sections would be approximately 9 x 10 cm (3.6 x 3.9 inches) in minimum size.
So workaround boards that will fit to Your board exactly are possible.
Keeping the phaser diodes on a seperate pcb is a good compromise therefore.
Now we wait for the slow boat from HK to deliver the boards :)
(http://i.postimg.cc/NfknDDK8/56899698-2311147229165083-464018422594797568-o.jpg)
Holy crap, this is getting SERIOUS!!!
Quote from: PMowdes2 on April 10, 2019, 03:00:11 PM
Now we wait for the slow boat from HK to deliver the boards :)
I know the pain of which this man speaks.
Verification in progress
(http://i.postimg.cc/hjQR25Bs/56990369-306783126683869-6781225173895872512-n.jpg)
(http://i.postimg.cc/rmkNHd6H/57155376-1061175197424642-5997587534379483136-n.jpg)
(http://i.postimg.cc/mDjC68yc/57155503-447062019431615-7972906469131550720-n.jpg)
(http://i.postimg.cc/2jHnQ95M/57085280-785855895132269-3345213674527653888-n.jpg)
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Holy Smokes!!!! :o :o :o
I love how you guys keep pushing the envelope of challenges!!! This beast looks to be killer!
What size enclosure is it spec'd for?
Quote from: digi2t on April 18, 2019, 02:34:05 PM
Diode boards are on their way. :)
(https://i.imgur.com/uB8S3va.jpg)
Thanks to Phil for his monk-like work.
They weren't done by pick and place machines?
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Suffering builds the character ;).
I would propose not to leave those copper areas unconnected, not ideal from a noise standpoint.
34 ICs...
240 SMD diodes...
Sounds fun!!!
I'm in!!
(Once the project is finalized and proven of course...)
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on April 22, 2019, 06:34:55 PM
34 ICs...
240 SMD diodes...
Sounds fun!!!
I'm in!!
(Once the project is finalized and proven of course...)
Think we are nearly done Greg. I soldered the diode boards by hand and posted them to Canada, just waiting for them to arrive. Dino's got everything else built and the fuzz section and the LFO seem to check out. We might have a small issue with the bypass switching which seems to be different between the original schematics and the unit we traced but i'm sure Dino can figure that out. It's been a bitch but the end is in sight.
Done and verified
(http://i.postimg.cc/Pqx0ymBp/58378832-444862626283702-8641187042333556736-n.jpg)
(http://i.postimg.cc/dVS5qgx3/58591281-1073992532812100-5525381662872961024-n.jpg)
(http://i.postimg.cc/8kBwF70q/58443355-312589199417397-5699885436785131520-n.jpg)
Quick demo video on our Instagram page www.instagram.com/deadendfx
I just peed a little :o
Question...
Did you fellas decide to incorporate the LM13X00 series OTAs or did you just stick with the 3080s?
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on April 26, 2019, 06:26:47 PM
I just peed a little :o
Question...
Did you fellas decide to incorporate the LM13X00 series OTAs or did you just stick with the 3080s?
All LM13700 except one 3080
Imma need one of these! Got something cookin' right now but this looks like the next challenge to build 8)
All boxed.
(http://i.postimg.cc/Xq9KzhcJ/58619791-2305611276425389-3204578711336648704-n.jpg)
(http://i.postimg.cc/VNTjL1Kv/58542742-799008130463499-3469297607581368320-n.jpg)
Is that a PS/2 cable I see there?? ???
Amazing!!!
When will these be available??
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on April 28, 2019, 06:06:23 PM
Is that a PS/2 cable I see there?? ???
I dont know exactly what he used Greg, i think it's a 5-pin DIN though
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Quote from: digi2t on April 28, 2019, 09:46:04 PM
8 pin mini DIN. You need 7 wires between the two.
Technically, you could use the 8th for the output and stick that jack down with the inputs on the pedals. That would further free up the main unit to sit on a stand or table.
The jacks come with 100mm of leads already on them, so makes the work easier. Available at Mouser. Part number will be in the build doc.
Gotcha!
Please.. please.. please tell me that the pots needed in the treadles are 10K Linear! 8)
I am so building this
8)
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SWEET!! I have 2 that are geared up and ready to go for this!
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Is BOTY voting open yet?
Hello,
signed to the forum just to congratulate everyone involved in the process!
I am on position #30 for the Digitana Reissue - and there goes almost 9 years in the process.
For sure I am up for some PCBs (my father already told me he wants me to build one for him too).
Have some questions too.
1. Is there any reason for using mixed LM13700 and 3080 instead leaving half LM13700 disconnected?
2. Since the output is already on the main enclosure, would be a bad idea to enclose the preamp there too? Leaving only the CV circuit on the pedals. This way it could be built like a standalone box if you do not want the CV pedal for making changes on the fly.
Congrats again, the work is really incredible .
All parts of the LM13700's are used. The original unit used 3080's
The only place we used a 3080 was where we had a stray single and I didn't want redundant pins by using a 13700.
The preamp is in the pedal on the original, we wanted to keep it as close to original spec as we could, also there isn't much spare room on either of the large pcbs so it made sense.
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Re-stating here for posterity....
Please put me down for a set. I would pull a ticket at the counter if I could 8) ;D
Any ballpark of a price yet? And what will be included?
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Quote from: digi2t on April 29, 2019, 10:43:42 AM
Quote from: PMowdes2 on April 29, 2019, 06:50:35 AM
All parts of the LM13700's are used. The original unit used 3080's
The only place we used a 3080 was where we had a stray single and I didn't want redundant pins by using a 13700.
The preamp is in the pedal on the original, we wanted to keep it as close to original spec as we could, also there isn't much spare room on either of the large pcbs so it made sense.
As Phil stated, it was a question of not wasting. Not wasting pins, or space. We're maxed out here on the Hammond "small" enclosure scale. As for the preamp, again, we're respecting the original form, and what the previous sentence points out.
9 years! Wow! Holy moly... I would never have waited for that long. Screw that. :o
Fully understood the choices!
About the waiting time, well I was in the beginning of a project to build one, but as you know there is very little information and the repair manual available could not be fully read.
I had redone almost half of the service manual pages from scratch, maybe you had interest in using that on the building documentation (specially the settings part) let me know and I can rush to finish that for you.
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What's your opinion on this vs. the Ludwig Phase 2? Not based on how rare/valuable/cool, just based on sounds. If you could only have one, again just based on sounds, which would it be?
Also, anybody know where to find cheap wah enclosures?
Quote from: skyled on April 29, 2019, 09:22:53 PM
Also, anybody know where to find cheap wah enclosures?
Define "cheap". 23$ for an empty shell kit at Smallbear. If you trawl Reverb or Ebay you may be able to find "for parts" wah pedals for a wee bit cheaper than that, or about that same ballpark.
Probably unlikely to find something much less than 20$ though, unless you hit the Goodwill/thrift store jackpot.
Quote from: digi2t on April 18, 2019, 02:34:05 PM
Diode boards are on their way. :)
(https://i.imgur.com/uB8S3va.jpg)
Thanks to Phil for his monk-like work.
Hello,
got some diodes to test today! The ones on this board are SOD-323-2 or SOD-123-2? Both SOD-80 (mini Melf) and SOD-123 have manageable size for hand soldering even without a hot air station, just need some solder paste and the superficial tension of the melted tin pull the part to the correct place.
Thanks
Gabriel
Quote from: skyled on April 29, 2019, 09:22:53 PM
What's your opinion on this vs. the Ludwig Phase 2? Not based on how rare/valuable/cool, just based on sounds. If you could only have one, again just based on sounds, which would it be?
Also, anybody know where to find cheap wah enclosures?
Just build both!
Seriously though, not having first hand experience with either, this one seems more useful from the demoes I've watched
Quote from: gabrielnbr on May 07, 2019, 01:21:41 AM
Quote from: digi2t
link=topic=29282.msg286508#msg286508 date=1555598045
Diode boards are on their way. :)
(https://i.imgur.com/uB8S3va.jpg)
Thanks to Phil for his monk-like work.
Hello,
got some diodes to test today! The ones on this board are SOD-323-2 or SOD-123-2? Both SOD-80 (mini Melf) and SOD-123 have manageable size for hand soldering even without a hot air station, just need some solder paste and the superficial tension of the melted tin pull the part to the correct place.
Thanks
Gabriel
I'm not sure I understand what you are trying say.
I hand soldered these boards, it took a while but it is achievable.
Quote from: Matmosphere on May 07, 2019, 01:42:14 AM
Quote from: skyled on April 29, 2019, 09:22:53 PM
What's your opinion on this vs. the Ludwig Phase 2? Not based on how rare/valuable/cool, just based on sounds. If you could only have one, again just based on sounds, which would it be?
Also, anybody know where to find cheap wah enclosures?
Well, I have the Ludwig and I was wondering if they're both very different or more or less redundant, minus the phaser part. The Hi-Fly looks like it will be an expensive build ($100+).
Just build both!
Seriously though, not having first hand experience with either, this one seems more useful from the demoes I've watched
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Quote from: digi2t on May 09, 2019, 04:08:27 PM
Quote from: skyled on April 29, 2019, 09:22:53 PM
What's your opinion on this vs. the Ludwig Phase 2? Not based on how rare/valuable/cool, just based on sounds. If you could only have one, again just based on sounds, which would it be?
Ahhhh..... the old "desert island" question.... ???
Well.... I don't live on a desert island, so I would build both. Building one over the other, solely based on sounds, is a bit nonsensical to me. It doesn't take into account the "ear fatigue" factor. Meaning, I'm all hyped on the Hi Fli now, but guess what, in a few days/weeks/months, I'll be bored with it, and I'll whip out the Phase II. I'll rediscover it like a long lost girlfriend. We'll have hot tonal sex for a while, and then I'll get bored again, discard her like yesterday's news, and hook up with a new tonal fling. Eventually, I'll come back to my Hi Fli mistress, and the cycle will begin again. ;)
Now you're just sounding like a used car salesman ;D
So when can we see the vero layout?
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Quote from: skyled on May 12, 2019, 08:04:22 PM
So when can we see the vero layout?
I found an enclosure for it! 8)
(https://www.bisonprofab.com/images/large-aluminum-enclosure.jpg)
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I can't find the source right now, possibly it's from your vero of the Infinitphase, but it was this:
Dino: "I'm a vero guy"
:P
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PCB sets are finally up on the store after a bit of a delay with the diode board fabrication