This is something that's been on my mind a lot lately for some reason. Earlier I was commenting in the Reddit diy sub and it really brought some things into focus that I'd like to share. These are just observations/life lessons I've learned so the purpose of this thread isn't to get "oh wow, you are so wise in the WAYS of LIFE madbean!" affirmations but rather just share a little insight I've been lucky enough to attain. And perhaps that might help with some that have experienced the same issues I've struggled with. Here goes.
Failure is important. Failure is also an integral to the path of success. The only way I've truly learned anything meaningful (or with any sense of permanence) in life is by first working through the feelings that come with failing at something I care about. This can be anything, of course. For me it's been (obviously) pedal building/design. But also guitar playing. Even parenting and marriage. Some of these are small things and some are big. But, no matter what you are working at failure always invokes the same sense of self doubt. It can even lead to self hatred. But, it doesn't have to. When I finally accepted failure as a process to be worked through rather than an ending to things I cherish I was able to free myself of a lot of that baggage. And for me that took many, many years to get to.
BTW, my name is Tony Robbins and you owe me $500 for reading this far.
The dark cousin of this is Imposter Syndrome. If you are not familiar, this is an irrational fear that one can experience when you think "If people only knew how much I suck at XX then I will truly be found out for the fraud I am." It's incredibly destructive to one's self esteem. I've experienced Imposter Syndrome numerous times in my adult life. For example, I went to music school after only playing guitar for a couple of years. I felt like a fraud the entire time because there were so many people that were more talented and experienced than me (it ended up being one of the best things I ever did for myself in retrospect). When I quit music school I decided "gee I want to be a physicist!" for some stupid reason. I went on to get a degree in math and I felt that same feeling all the way through (because I fucking nearly failed Algebra in high school and even failed a couple of college math classes). But, I stuck with it an somehow graduated (barely).
In college I played drums in a band even though I was a shitty drummer. Later on I played bass in a band that was, no joke, ranked among one of the worst gigging bands in Dallas (FU Zack, I still have the newspaper clipping somewhere and we were kinda good). Lastly, I started the commercial aspect of madbeanpedals after a few years of hobby building and for a long time I felt like I sucked. There are many people who have actual EE pedigrees doing this stuff and I'm just some guy. I've even said numerous times there are people on this forum that know a lot more about electronics than I do! It took me several years to actually appreciate what I had accomplished and feel like it mattered in some way. I believed in it, but I retained some kind of guilt or doubt through that process for quite a while.
I've come to appreciate the inherent value in all these experiences rather than using them as an excuse to give up. Challenging oneself is probably the most important thing we can do to find purpose in DOING. Doing is different than BEING, and BEING is much more about accepting the joy of NOTHING important at all (thanks Lao Tzu). I still fail constantly, but every iteration of failure followed by some small success is now what motivates instead of serving as an excuse or acceptance that I am somehow inadequate.
(If you've read this far I am sorry to say you are now in a cult and I am your man-god. Don't worry, you can ascend to a higher plane with regular payments to my personal bank account.)
Anyway, long winded and maybe self serving diatribe has concluded. But, I'd like to hear other people's perspective/observation on failure and Imposter Syndrome so I will sticky this topic for a bit. Throw down, and be witnessed! I'd like to know I'm not the only one who spends too much time thinking about their own BS :) A bit left field from the average thread but maybe it will serve a purpose.
(https://i.gifer.com/14eu.gif)
Must send Bean $$...
Must send Bean $$...
Must send Bean $$...
I grew up believing that Everything Must Be Done Perfectly The First Time And Every Time Thereafter Or Don't Do It At All™. The result is then one who believes this never does anything at all. Now I practice Fuck It Up The First Time So You Can See How Not To Fuck It Up Later™ and it's going pretty good.
I have more hobbies than any one man should. A few years ago, I wanted to learn how to carve wooden spoons, so I bought some tools and with absolutely ZERO idea how to do so, carved my first spoon. It was vaguely spoon-like and pretty rough, but it stirred macaroni and cheese pretty good. Then later I got a chance to take a lesson with a guy who made a living carving spoons. In my house, we refer to initial attempts, especially those that are less than exemplary as "first spoons." I've made a lot of "first spoon" pedals and now I love the process of learning from my mistakes
Yeah, you learn more when a pedal doesn't gorram work and you have to troubleshoot, than when it goes on the first pull. Failure is when you really, really learn about things. (Mostly out of necessity. But, as they say, necessity is the mother... I forget the rest.)
Isn't there the saying that 'fail' is just an acronym for 'first attempt in learning'.
My Father has been extremely successful in everything he gets involved in. Construction, Oil & Gas, Car Dealerships, etc. He always told me that if I ever wanted to get ahead I needed to work for myself and find something that made me money while I slept. I on the other hand saw how hard he worked and decided fairly early that I like to have fun. So, I never really had to worry about being an imposter as I never took control of anything that may have been over my head. I chose to do the opposite of everything he did (rebellion?). I'm the oldest of 3 boys so I always got the brunt end anyway so it was easier for me to give up and quit if things got to tough. At around 35 I finally grew up. After a costly divorce and a failed business I went back to school and got a degree in accounting and business admin. First let me say, my father never gave us anything. If we wanted something we had to work for it. That's not to say we couldn't count on him is we were ever in a bind. We also knew that if we ever did get in a bind, a long sermon would precede any help, if any. I've never taken a job for the money. It had to be something I enjoyed or I didn't do it. Because of this I've never made a great salary, good yes, great, no. My regret I guess will be that I left a lot on the table. I could have done much better for myself than I have. However, once you get past a certain age you lean more towards stability than risk. I also listened to too many people telling me some ideas would never work. I listened to them to much when I was younger. I wish I would have stuck my neck out and tried a few things. It would have been much easier to recover from when I was younger. I admire people who tackle things that might be a little out of their comfort zone. It's really the only way to grow.
Quote from: harryklippton on April 23, 2021, 05:23:07 AM
I grew up believing that Everything Must Be Done Perfectly The First Time And Every Time Thereafter Or Don't Do It At All™. The result is then one who believes this never does anything at all. Now I practice Fuck It Up The First Time So You Can See How Not To Fuck It Up Later™ and it's going pretty good.
I have more hobbies than any one man should. A few years ago, I wanted to learn how to carve wooden spoons, so I bought some tools and with absolutely ZERO idea how to do so, carved my first spoon. It was vaguely spoon-like and pretty rough, but it stirred macaroni and cheese pretty good. Then later I got a chance to take a lesson with a guy who made a living carving spoons. In my house, we refer to initial attempts, especially those that are less than exemplary as "first spoons." I've made a lot of "first spoon" pedals and now I love the process of learning from my mistakes
Yeah I can relate to a lot of this. That feeling of wanting things to be done in a perfect way when that's not really what's important. Throwing yourself in the deep end is a good thing to do for yourself!
Hopefully my word barf last night isn't too over the top for everyone. There might have been a glass or two wine involved! But, sometimes you just gotta get things out of your system.
Quote from: madbean on April 23, 2021, 04:05:40 PM
Quote from: harryklippton on April 23, 2021, 05:23:07 AM
I grew up believing that Everything Must Be Done Perfectly The First Time And Every Time Thereafter Or Don't Do It At All™. The result is then one who believes this never does anything at all. Now I practice Fuck It Up The First Time So You Can See How Not To Fuck It Up Later™ and it's going pretty good.
I have more hobbies than any one man should. A few years ago, I wanted to learn how to carve wooden spoons, so I bought some tools and with absolutely ZERO idea how to do so, carved my first spoon. It was vaguely spoon-like and pretty rough, but it stirred macaroni and cheese pretty good. Then later I got a chance to take a lesson with a guy who made a living carving spoons. In my house, we refer to initial attempts, especially those that are less than exemplary as "first spoons." I've made a lot of "first spoon" pedals and now I love the process of learning from my mistakes
Yeah I can relate to a lot of this. That feeling of wanting things to be done in a perfect way when that's not really what's important. Throwing yourself in the deep end is a good thing to do for yourself!
Hopefully my word barf last night isn't too over the top for everyone. There might have been a glass or two wine involved! But, sometimes you just gotta get things out of your system.
... not to mention the vaccine hangover...
Thanks for sharing Brian (& others), good stuff!
dave
I really like this post. TBH I cruised thru high school with minimal effort and a lot of opportunities got handed to me just because I was the right person, in the right place, at the right time. I made a career out of it, and after a 5 year stint on the road I totally switched gears to the "real job" market. I've always felt a similar guilt in whether or not I deserved to be where I am. 8 years ago I got let go from an electrical contractor I was a PM for (after a corporate buy out) and it shook me to the core. I've since had a chance to rebuild myself and although I still struggle with personal issues (WFH has sort of exaggerated my hermit tendencies), that perceived failure has added a lot of strength to my perceived success. It's sometimes a fleeting perception but as I cruise closer to retirement I realize that I've earned everything I have moving forward into retirement (still a good 3 years out), and the teamwork of my wife's insight into how the finances work will get us across the finish line and keep us relatively comfortable. My plan would have us in a cardboard box and eating cat food.
Michael Jordan got cut the first time he tried out for High School basketball.
The Beatles, Eddie Van Halen, and Stevie Ray Vaughn were all passed over when they were first presented to a record label.
Tony Hawk has lots of scars from tricks he didn't pull off.
Everybody falls down. It's how you get back up that people remember the most.
Perfection is the arch enemy of completion. The Joker to your Batman if you will, or perhaps even better the imperial fleet to your Death Star 2 attack... it's a f-ckin trap.
A couple of years ago I adopted the mantra "stumbling from one disaster to the next as gracefully as possible", which is just another way of saying I try to learn what I can from mistakes and move on.
If your success to fail ratio is better than 1:10 then you are ahead of the game. If it's 1:1 then you aren't trying hard enough. At least I'm pretty sure that's how the math works, I checked it out. It is a rather elegant relation, dare I say.. perfect ;p
Or perhaps it is my turn to have a glass of wine and post. Have a pleasant night all.
I just figure we're all worm food in the end, and hence the universe doesn't care how much most of us fail. :)
You know there's a ton of logic there. If you're of the mindset that a higher power is involved then it becomes almost justifiable no matter how you spin it.
To get out of the deep end for a sec I have a poster that reads "Mistakes...It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others."
Quote from: gordo on April 24, 2021, 04:59:27 PM
To get out of the deep end for a sec I have a poster that reads "Mistakes...It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others."
I have a sign in my office at work that says DONE IS BETTER THAN PERFECT
I don't know guys there is a lot of gray area between perfect and fail. What is acceptable to some can be a total waste of time to others. Different strokes for different folks ya know... I would say that most people don't strive to fail(for learning) or to be perfect, but are just after a sense of accomplishment and have different tolerances for what it takes to get there.
Of course, I do everything perfectly every time so what do I know 8)
The first year I tried building pedals, I was zero for 12, not a single working build. I was extremely frustrated and very nearly gave up forever.
Coming from a programming background, I figured there had to be a serious bug someplace high up that was flowing downstream into all of my builds. I'm good at following instructions - there's no chance I just independently screwed up each build in a unique and novel way. So I went through every step of my build process.
When I was getting started, an EE friend told me that it's good to use flux when soldering - and so I'd picked up some water-based flux from Home Depot along with my $15 Weller iron. Turns out that the flux was not designed for electronics and was somewhat conductive, so I had random shorts all over the place. That's why I could never get anywhere with troubleshooting.
After I threw out the flux, it was like Karate Kid post-wax-on: nearly all of my builds from that point forward worked the first time, and I quickly regained the confidence that had been sapped by the flux debacle. Fast forward ten years and I've made a full-time job out of it.
During that time, just about everything I learned, I learned by screwing up. So to the degree that I'm any good at what I do today, it's mostly because I've made more mistakes than other people. The important thing is just never make the same mistake twice. Learn everything you can from your failures. Make sure there's no lingering question about why something didn't work, and figure out how you can make sure that specific issue never happens again.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
Great post, Kevin! Thank you.
I remember my first build very well. It was a simple DIY A/B switcher that was on the Fulltone site (this had to be around 2004). After I built it I realized I had absolutely no use for it :) But, that lit the fire.
Well said and explained Brian i couldnt agree more. Self doubt and imposter syndrome go hand in hand. I dont BELIEVE that im great at anything. So when im told i am, i feel like i've mislead or even lied to people. I say that from personal experience by the way.
I recall a conversation i had some years ago with someone on this forum when i was having a rough time with one aspect of my life. And he said, in so many words, or at least, the way i read it: "There's something that you have that others don't. There's something that you know you can do well, that others cant. Its not insignificant, its important. That's the thing you should be focusing on improving". I thought about what that thing was and i came to an answer. And just like that. Bang. Things started to make sense. Stop competing with others, and start competing with myself.
That advise lead me out of the dark and head first into improving my life. Not just with the "thing" I was having trouble with. With everything.
Open mics cured my imposter syndrome. For three or four years I played and helped run an open mic. I got to see a lot of players pass through in that time. Most were good—at least in some aspect—and had something they did in a way that no one else could. What I learned over many conversations with musicians I respected (and sometimes envied a little) was that no one is good at everything and that we are often in the worst position to identify our own strengths or unique contributions. As an example, I had a friend who could finger pick like Chet Atkins or Tommy Emanuel. It was hard not to feel inadequate next to him. One night he pointed out to me some syncopated lick that I played that he just couldn't get under his hands. At first I was baffled that there was anything I could play that he couldn't. But after that, it got easier for me to just lean into what I enjoyed and to trust that the right audience would find me and appreciate whatever unique contribution I have to make to the craft.
I have been a ham-fisted failbot lately on circuit design ideas. Like seriously, 7 or 8 ideas in a row crashed and burned. A few just refuse to work at all, and others sound just "meh" at best. Definitely frustrating, but unlike my old way of dealing, I'm just plowing ahead with more ideas. Sooner or later I'll get something good going.
On another note, a failure from about 3 years ago just got worked out. After extensive testing, I discovered that there was a defect in the PCB manufacturing. My idea was good, the board was just bad. So at least there's that. :D
Anyone want to talk short comings and imposter syndrome? I am a middle aged, balding dad rocker who films himself in a room talking about pedals and if any of you have watched know, I am not a great guitar player nor am I at all knowledgeable about what I am doing but my buddy Eric thought it would be a good idea.
I think if left to my own devices I would live in the middle of nowhere whittling spoons and drunk. Self doubt, failure (or fear of it), imposter syndrome and all of those negative thoughts that swirl around my head have kept me firmly planted where I am. It is only through the insistence of my wife, family and friends that I even try to do anything really, especially the likes of social media and youtoobz.
I could tell stories upon stories of short comings and failures both personal and professional but it has been through having an outlet like this to bullshit about a hobby that keeps my spirits up and all of you equally crazy bastards.
Quote from: culturejam on April 29, 2021, 01:33:35 AM
I have been a ham-fisted failbot lately on circuit design ideas. Like seriously, 7 or 8 ideas in a row crashed and burned. A few just refuse to work at all, and others sound just "meh" at best.
I've been in that same boat lately. My last 3 or 4 board orders, I've been hitting at about a 50% rate (some even on their second or third revision). Sometimes its something stupid like "I totally forgot to add the reference voltage divider" to "why did I think a switch would work that way". And almost worst than a dumb mistake in design is the dreaded "that just doesn't sound good, and I have no idea how to make it sound better".
I have a lot of conversations with my wife about this as she is trying (and succeeding) at launching a little cookie side business out of our house. She has a lot of the same feelings of not being good enough and that people will find her out. I keep reminding her that she is getting leaps and bounds better over where she was, and will only get better. I feel like we are all in the same boat. If we look at our first builds and where we are now, we have all learned a few things along the way.
I always found this appropriate when we feel bad about our skills, we are all our own worst critic...
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I read a great quote the other day which really resonates with me and I want to embrace it more:
"Worry is misuse of imagination."
Not the same issue, but I work with a lot of young and unexperienced musicians who are singing or playing on stage for the first time. Often people are so afraid of making mistakes in front of people. The reality is that even the best musicians make mistakes, the best singers hit wrong notes, and these flubs will happen no matter your skill level. Learning to be a great player is realizing that you can't be perfect at all times, and that nobody really remembers the mistakes, especially the people we love, remember your bravery or the great moment in the set, and the mistakes always fade.
It's a tough lesson to learn, but those who do will succeed, and it's worth it if only because playing in front of people is such a rewarding experience.
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on May 01, 2021, 12:30:27 AM
Not the same issue, but I work with a lot of young and unexperienced musicians who are singing or playing on stage for the first time. Often people are so afraid of making mistakes in front of people. The reality is that even the best musicians make mistakes, the best singers hit wrong notes, and these flubs will happen no matter your skill level. Learning to be a great player is realizing that you can't be perfect at all times, and that nobody really remembers the mistakes, especially the people we love, remember your bravery or the great moment in the set, and the mistakes always fade.
It's a tough lesson to learn, but those who do will succeed, and it's worth it if only because playing in front of people is such a rewarding experience.
Jacob
I've never really had stage freight, which is pretty lucky looking back. Think it stems from when I took lessons for a couple weeks. Think I learned E, C and G. I was playing through something with the teacher (who was really a great player and a cool guy) and I messed up a chord, and pretty quickly recovered and finished the song. The teacher basically said, Do That, if you mess up keep going and pretend it didn't happen. Anyone watching you will forget within the next few bars if you just keep going. Best advice I've ever gotten. I was maybe 14. That moment stuck with me, I stuck with guitar (but unfortunately not the lessons).
Stage freight is when you make a ton of mistakes...
I still get a bit of fright in new situations but having been on a stage for going on 50 years I've kind of worked my way thru it. A drummer I once played with told me "it's not a mistake unless you acknowledge it"
As to middle age balding dad syndrome I think that at some point, and I think this presents itself more in males, you hit an age where you think "what the f**k am I doing?". I think a lot of that stems from the fact that you don't get instant feedback like you do in a performing situation. That bit of applause/attention, or lack of it is reinforcement or consequences of your actions. In real life you don't get that. But for everytime you think "this is useless" there are a hundred of us that would stand up and say "no...it's not...it means something".
A very long time ago I went to see Jeff Beck/Jan Hammer on the Blue Wind tour and Harvey Mandel opened for them. From the first note that guy played he absolutely ripped me to shreds and I didn't hear electric guitar the same from that point on. I was one of only a handful of people that seemed to be paying much attention to him and I've always thought it would be cool to be able to tell him what a life changing impact he made in a 45 minute set. He'd already turned down a guitar seat with the Rolling Stones to stay true to himself and I'm hoping he got/gets royalties from his stint in Canned Heat but other than that I don't think you could say he had any commercial viability, if that's any measure of success.
For the record Jeff Beck was awesome too but I already knew what to expect...
Quote from: gordo on May 01, 2021, 03:09:48 PM
But for everytime you think "this is useless" there are a hundred of us that would stand up and say "no...it's not...it means something".
That's great Gordo, well put (... speaking for a friend who is a member of the balding above middle age Granddad group).