I've got back in the last week, 3 or 4 pedals that I've built for friends, all with faulty stomp switches. they're from various sources, Tayda, BLMS, and smallbear among them.
I've had enough and i'm going to make the switch (ba-dum-cha!) to either opto or relay based switching, looking at the pro's and cons of either.
Probably looking at designing my own boards, and most of the relay switching options I've seen have come with pre-progammed micro controllers, and that's not something I'm geared up for yet, so I guess I'm leaning more toward opto's.
I like the Optoshield opto bypass for Rej's STM project, so i'm probably leaning toward something similar to that or the opto-tron - curious about where you guys are sourcing your h1f11s though...
My supervisor at work (Darren Wallace -- loaned him a couple pedals) asked me what my warranty period was.
"Don't have one, but I'll always have a look."
Biggest problem with most any stomp switches are the incredibly loose tolerances for the threads on the bolt and the nut, from my experience.
I just had this conversation with Rej today and I think Mouser is the best choice when getting more than 100 of them. I just don't trust the 10 for $5 china ones on eBay. I think I am going to move over to the Opti based switching myself. I will be trying a few sources tomorrow at work and see what the best pricing I can get but I am leaning towards Mouser at this point.
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fairchild-Semiconductor/H11F1M/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMugPZL2oX39yI7jG0lGkOJr6M8FlExHaAA%3d (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fairchild-Semiconductor/H11F1M/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMugPZL2oX39yI7jG0lGkOJr6M8FlExHaAA%3d)
Cody
warrantee period ?
Quote from: alanp on March 23, 2015, 05:31:17 AM
"Don't have one, but I'll always have a look."
I'm about the same, with the caveats: "if you submerged it in beer, or plugged in the wrong power supply, you pay for the parts". had the latter a few times, haven't had the former. yet.
Quote from: selfdestroyer on March 23, 2015, 05:33:23 AM
I just had this conversation with Rej today and I think Mouser is the best choice when getting more than 100 of them. I just don't trust the 10 for $5 china ones on eBay. I think I am going to move over to the Opti based switching myself. I will be trying a few sources tomorrow at work and see what the best pricing I can get but I am leaning towards Mouser at this point.
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fairchild-Semiconductor/H11F1M/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMugPZL2oX39yI7jG0lGkOJr6M8FlExHaAA%3d (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fairchild-Semiconductor/H11F1M/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMugPZL2oX39yI7jG0lGkOJr6M8FlExHaAA%3d)
Cody
Mouser is out for me i think, the minimum shipping to new zealand makes it, uh, uneconomic ;)
Well, you should have hung out for chief solder orang-utan, then.
I get my H11F1 from a local dealer. You could contact your nearest dealer, they usually have easy acces to those.
Maybe you could pm Paul (Cromesphere). I think it might be a good addition to his shop and make opto-fets something accesible for all the guys in the Pacific (and for us, Paul shipping rate is ridiculously low!).
I've been using Josh's Optotrons for a while and do not see myself going back to 3pdts.
However, I would like to try Rullywow's too, they have a smaller footprint and the TP222G is a little better than the H11F1.
I'm using Josh's finish line and THcustom Ueberswitch, both great IMO.
Guess I have just been lucky, but I don't think I have had a bad 3PDT for over a year :-\
Had some really cheap ones from Tayda that really didn't like the iron to hot. but other then that I have nothing but love for 3PDT.
Always thought adding opto or relays is just adding more to go wrong.........but I'm so oldschool I'm only just considering it not sacrilege adding a DC socket or LED to a fuzz box! ;)
Optotron.
That is all.
Quote from: PigeonFX on March 23, 2015, 09:59:31 AM
Always thought adding opto or relays is just adding more to go wrong.........
Most of the time, that being 9 out of 10 in my case, pedals that are coming back for repair have electro-mechanicals problems, switch (toggle/stomp), potentiometers, etc...
Other than by using the wrong PSU or submerging the pedal in water (beer), the actual components will never fail, in both case if someone offers any kind of warranty on his builts, that should'nt be covered. So i would'nt be worried about adding more components.
When building on a larger scale than personnal hobby, having pedals out there with the possibility of mechanical failure can make you look flaky about your selection of material on the long term run...
So yeah, my vote goes to alternative switching methods that are not using 3PDTs when building at a larger scale, the reduction in possible hassle is to be seriously considered.
After doing a bit of math... using optoswitching if buying in lots of 100 the components necessary, it will end up costing 4 to 5$ per unit... that is not much more than a quality 3PDT.
With relay bypass, saying you have your own code, burn your MCU, you'll be in a 6 to 9$ range depending of the relay used. Add to that the time used to burn ICs...
'Nyway there will always be that knothead being able to destroy your builts.... ::)
Rej
I like this one:
http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=16554.0 (http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=16554.0)
What Rej said basically.
4 out of 5 returns that come back to me are old builds with failed 3PDTs in them. The other 1 out of 5 are incorrect power.
3PDTs are shit. Let them out into the real world and they will fail. Sometimes sooner rather than later.
I've must have used 150-200 of the Alpha DPDTs with Optotrons now and not had a single failure or return due to stomp failure. I've had one dead stomp in all that time and it was DOA, so probably a manufacturing error.
Other than cost (as Rej mentions, you will have to buy bulk to keep the costs down), there is no downside to the Optotron and the cost is worth it if you want to build robust pedals.
Quote from: PigeonFX on March 23, 2015, 09:59:31 AM
Always thought adding opto or relays is just adding more to go wrong.........but I'm so oldschool I'm only just considering it not sacrilege adding a DC socket or LED to a fuzz box! ;)
Benefit of no LED is that you can stick to the good ol'Carling DPDT I guess. I would also venture that if you need an LED to tell you when your fuzz is on you are doing something wrong ;D
Relay bypass is great. 1776 effects do a PCB+Micro combo (finish line) that is well worth checking out.
I tend to stick with 3PDT too, for convenience more than anything. I keep meaning to switch over to relay bypass.
The other problem I (and others I would imagine) face is convincing the general public that other bypass schemes are ok.
Any mention of relay based, or even worse optical based, bypass and most of the customers I build for run for the trees ;)
People want 3PDT as this is what we have all been lead to believe is bestest for toanz.
Quote from: GrindCustoms on March 23, 2015, 10:18:38 AM
Most of the time, that being 9 out of 10 in my case, pedals that are coming back for repair have electro-mechanicals problems, switch (toggle/stomp), potentiometers, etc...
I agree with you, but when it comes to repairs I tend to see far more vintage units, where its leaky caps and components drifting well out of tolerance that are effecting the unit far worse then a the scratchy pots that need some contact cleaner.
And its not as if optos/relays are electro-mechanical free options, you still have a mechanical foot switch, even the relays is mechanical.
And then there is the kicker, that most people buying pedals want true bypass in DPDT or 3PDT form......its what they know, and what they trust.
Though I have no doubt they will die out, and be superseded over time.
Quote from: raulduke on March 23, 2015, 10:29:16 AM
Benefit of no LED is that you can stick to the good ol'Carling DPDT I guess. I would also venture that if you need an LED to tell you when your fuzz is on you are doing something wrong ;D
Exactly right, in both the Carling's being top-notch, and your fuzz not working if you need a LED ;D
Quote from: raulduke on March 23, 2015, 10:29:16 AM
The other problem I (and others I would imagine) face is convincing the general public that other bypass schemes are ok.
Any mention of relay based, or even worse optical based, bypass and most of the customers I build for run for the trees ;)
This is very true, IMHO. I have NEVER been asked to put optical or relay switching in a pedal, Mod or repair, its not even come up in conversation (despite its merits).
I've been using the Alpha 3PDTs recently, and they seem to be the most solidly built. Their DPDTs are way better though if you want a true bypass option like the optotron or millennium.
The most reliable switching is something active and as little actuation of switches as possible. Mechanical parts are just more likely to go bad in the long run. Buffered bypass like the Boss pedals is one of the best ways you can possibly do it: It doesn't pop, and with a good (Carling?) switch, it should last as long as a transistor can last. Next most reliable is probably a relay, though they have their own issues. After that, you can use a Carling DPDT, which costs a good $10, and one of the active true bypass schemes and your children will probably be the ones on hook for the warranty. But it's a lot cheaper to just use the Alpha ones, and they're pretty nice on their own :)
Quote from: raulduke on March 23, 2015, 10:29:16 AM
People want 3PDT as this is what we have all been lead to believe is bestest for toanz.
I've successfully managed to convert most people I come across to optical and will argue till the cows come home every advantage they have over 3PDT. I hate them with a passion. To me, seeing one in any pedal, particularly commercial is a complete turn off. Just makes me think 'cheap and shite'.
Getting pedals back, for whatever reason reflects badly on my build. I never want my pedals to fail for any reason other than abuse or extreme age. They will see it as a lack of robustness on the build, rather than just another failed stomp. It's worth the extra cost for that alone.
Obviously, Dave, Brian, and I like relay-based switching. The problem with relay systems is that they are not cost-effective as one-off purchases. We have put some effort into trying to figure out how to roll out the FFX switching system to the community at large, and it always comes back to volume to make cost reasonable.
For DIY and short-run work, my vote is for optical. It makes the most sense in terms of performance and cost.
I never see it mentioned, so maybe people aren't aware(?), but Carling has started making 3pdt switches now. Maybe not 'cost effective' (they cost like 13 bucks apiece at Mouser in single quantity), but the topic is clearly about reliability, not cost ....
Just my $ .02, YMMV, etc.
I am always wondering why not more people in the DYI realms use the BOSS/Ibanez style bypass.
I assume that provided you use good buffers (op amps for example, instead of transistors they often use) it should be a rock solid switching scheme? (and cheaper than most other alternatives) Or has it to do with bouncing switches or something else? I will surely find out why as soon as I start digging into it :) (which I was intending as soon as I find some time)
Quote from: drolo on March 23, 2015, 03:38:53 PM
I am always wondering why not more people in the DYI realms use the BOSS/Ibanez style bypass.
I assume that provided you use good buffers (op amps for example, instead of transistors they often use) it should be a rock solid switching scheme? (and cheaper than most other alternatives) Or has it to do with bouncing switches or something else? I will surely find out why as soon as I start digging into it :) (which I was intending as soon as I find some time)
I've look at that recently and what put me off is the circuit would be quite substantial in size and it seems more trouble than it's worth just to be able to use a momentary switch.
I've personally not had trouble with 3PDTs, but I do love the feel of the Alpha DPDT. The optical system looks pretty hard to beat when considering cost/reliability/quiet performance.
It's funny. When I've asked friends/customers what they would like to see in pedals, I've consistently heard them ask for "those quiet soft kind of switches, like they have on the TC Nova pedals." I've considered moving away from 3PDTs, but If I do, I will probably go straight to soft-touch relay bypass. I really like the solid positive-but-soft actuation of the Carling momentary SPST. They are so expensive but I would probably pay the price for that level of quality. Especially if I am already spending the money on a relay and micro controller. Until then, it's the Alpha 3PDT for me. I have every reason to believe they are the equal in quality to their 2PDT. They do take more effort to actuate, take up more internal space, and make a louder click. I'm done with ol' blue forever. It's Alpha Black for 3PDTs.
MicTester's relay switching at freestompboxes? Haven't tried it yet but have the bits to put it into action... someday.
http://freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13295&sid=c2fca9e125b3bfe22cfc9cf153b18219
Hmmm...I haven't had any 3PDT switches fail on me yet, but then I only build for myself. I use the Pro series switches from Mammoth (the aqua colored ones).
Having said that, I would love to try a relay-based switch for effects that get turned on and off all the time, mainly boosters/overdrives. For example, when I play live, most overdrives and distortions are activated once per song (or set of songs). However a booster (or perhaps a favorite overdrive) may be turned on and off for leads. Those are the effects that would benefit from the relay-based switching.
Quote from: Leevibe on March 23, 2015, 03:52:33 PM
It's funny. When I've asked friends/customers what they would like to see in pedals, I've consistently heard them ask for "those quiet soft kind of switches, like they have on the TC Nova pedals." I've considered moving away from 3PDTs, but If I do, I will probably go straight to soft-touch relay bypass. I really like the solid positive-but-soft actuation of the Carling momentary SPST. They are so expensive but I would probably pay the price for that level of quality. Especially if I am already spending the money on a relay and micro controller. Until then, it's the Alpha 3PDT for me. I have every reason to believe they are the equal in quality to their 2PDT. They do take more effort to actuate, take up more internal space, and make a louder click. I'm done with ol' blue forever. It's Alpha Black for 3PDTs.
Do you guys use Mouser as your source for the Alpha 3PDT's?
What I want in a build is essentially the first pic below. That's my generic bottom end on all builds. It goes in, gets tested, then it's just 4 wires and it's done. No hassle, super short wiring and utterly solid.
That's not to say it couldn't be improved ;) My wishlist for Optotron 2 (winking at Josh here...). Is pic two. Couple of changes here. I'd want the I and O for the board separated. Just to keep them as far apart as possible. I'd want the top and central LED as it's way more useful there, and power on both sides of the board as it'd make any multi's neater. That to me would be the perfect DIY switch board. Well, it's my perfect DIY switch board anyhow ;)
Quote from: juansolo on March 23, 2015, 06:08:39 PM
What I want in a build is essentially the first pic below. That's my generic bottom end on all builds. It goes in, gets tested, then it's just 4 wires and it's done. No hassle, super short wiring and utterly solid.
That's not to say it couldn't be improved ;) My wishlist for Optotron 2 (winking at Josh here...). Is pic two. Couple of changes here. I'd want the I and O for the board separated. Just to keep them as far apart as possible. I'd want the top and central LED as it's way more useful there, and power on both sides of the board as it'd make any multi's neater. That to me would be the perfect DIY switch board. Well, it's my perfect DIY switch board anyhow ;)
that second one does look pretty sweet and very practical
Quote from: raulduke on March 23, 2015, 06:03:39 PM
Do you guys use Mouser as your source for the Alpha 3PDT's?
They're $3.50 at PPP. Unbeatable. I live in the US though. I doubt that works out well for you.
Quote from: Leevibe on March 23, 2015, 06:15:37 PM
Quote from: raulduke on March 23, 2015, 06:03:39 PM
Do you guys use Mouser as your source for the Alpha 3PDT's?
They're $3.50 at PPP. Unbeatable. I live in the US though. I doubt that works out well for you.
Thanks for the heads up. Yeah PPP is expensive shipping wise to EU.
I can get a pretty good price at Mouser if I go in for 100. Might be worth a splurge. They'd certainly last me a while :)
Quote from: juansolo on March 23, 2015, 06:08:39 PM
What I want in a build is essentially the first pic below. That's my generic bottom end on all builds. It goes in, gets tested, then it's just 4 wires and it's done. No hassle, super short wiring and utterly solid.
That's not to say it couldn't be improved ;) My wishlist for Optotron 2 (winking at Josh here...). Is pic two. Couple of changes here. I'd want the I and O for the board separated. Just to keep them as far apart as possible. I'd want the top and central LED as it's way more useful there, and power on both sides of the board as it'd make any multi's neater. That to me would be the perfect DIY switch board. Well, it's my perfect DIY switch board anyhow ;)
Very nice! I like modular systems and will have to try this out. :)
Quote from: juansolo on March 23, 2015, 06:08:39 PM
What I want in a build is essentially the first pic below. That's my generic bottom end on all builds. It goes in, gets tested, then it's just 4 wires and it's done. No hassle, super short wiring and utterly solid.
That's not to say it couldn't be improved ;) My wishlist for Optotron 2 (winking at Josh here...). Is pic two. Couple of changes here. I'd want the I and O for the board separated. Just to keep them as far apart as possible. I'd want the top and central LED as it's way more useful there, and power on both sides of the board as it'd make any multi's neater. That to me would be the perfect DIY switch board. Well, it's my perfect DIY switch board anyhow ;)
like this? ;)
(http://felix.kalium.org/upload/share/trial1.png)
Quote from: m-Kresol on March 23, 2015, 08:48:41 PM
Quote from: juansolo on March 23, 2015, 06:08:39 PM
What I want in a build is essentially the first pic below. That's my generic bottom end on all builds. It goes in, gets tested, then it's just 4 wires and it's done. No hassle, super short wiring and utterly solid.
That's not to say it couldn't be improved ;) My wishlist for Optotron 2 (winking at Josh here...). Is pic two. Couple of changes here. I'd want the I and O for the board separated. Just to keep them as far apart as possible. I'd want the top and central LED as it's way more useful there, and power on both sides of the board as it'd make any multi's neater. That to me would be the perfect DIY switch board. Well, it's my perfect DIY switch board anyhow ;)
like this? ;)
(http://felix.kalium.org/upload/share/trial1.png)
Haha awesome.
Cody
I was under the impression that even the opto bypass option still has the KER-CHUNK of the DPDT switch. I thought the whole point was to get rid of the KER-CHUNK!
Am I wrong here? The relay bypass utilizes a soft touch momentary so there is no switch click at all.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on March 23, 2015, 09:20:52 PM
I was under the impression that even the opto bypass option still has the KER-CHUNK of the DPDT switch. I thought the whole point was to get rid of the KER-CHUNK!
Am I wrong here? The relay bypass utilizes a soft touch momentary so there is no switch click at all.
I've never used a relay system that was as quiet as a mechanical switch. Some have a big pop. Some have a small pop. Some have a hiccup while it mutes. Not to mention, it costs a lot more.
Also, the Alpha DPDTs have more of a CLick than a KER-Chunk. Feels much nicer, and I kind of like that tactile feedback now. I think where it comes out ahead of a 3PDT is in feel and reliability.
Quote from: selfdestroyer on March 23, 2015, 08:57:28 PM
Quote from: m-Kresol on March 23, 2015, 08:48:41 PM
Quote from: juansolo on March 23, 2015, 06:08:39 PM
What I want in a build is essentially the first pic below. That's my generic bottom end on all builds. It goes in, gets tested, then it's just 4 wires and it's done. No hassle, super short wiring and utterly solid.
That's not to say it couldn't be improved ;) My wishlist for Optotron 2 (winking at Josh here...). Is pic two. Couple of changes here. I'd want the I and O for the board separated. Just to keep them as far apart as possible. I'd want the top and central LED as it's way more useful there, and power on both sides of the board as it'd make any multi's neater. That to me would be the perfect DIY switch board. Well, it's my perfect DIY switch board anyhow ;)
like this? ;)
(http://felix.kalium.org/upload/share/trial1.png)
Haha awesome.
Cody
That is indeed, most awesome. Shame I have another 40 opto's to get through before the next order ;)
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on March 23, 2015, 09:20:52 PM
I was under the impression that even the opto bypass option still has the KER-CHUNK of the DPDT switch. I thought the whole point was to get rid of the KER-CHUNK!
Am I wrong here? The relay bypass utilizes a soft touch momentary so there is no switch click at all.
I think that depends on the particular setup, the mictester uses a latched switch to operate the relay so you'd still get the mechanical slam of that switch. With some additional circuitry to create a electronic latch you could use a soft touch momentary to actuate the relay. And there is a very very quiet mechanical click of the relay as it switches.
You still have the mechanical switch, as that's what's doing the switching still. But they don't pop as a rule and the Alphas have a really nice clicky action to them.
Quote from: drolo on March 23, 2015, 03:38:53 PM
I am always wondering why not more people in the DYI realms use the BOSS/Ibanez style bypass.
I assume that provided you use good buffers (op amps for example, instead of transistors they often use) it should be a rock solid switching scheme? (and cheaper than most other alternatives) Or has it to do with bouncing switches or something else? I will surely find out why as soon as I start digging into it :) (which I was intending as soon as I find some time)
People leaned towards true bypass and having only wire between pedals because using an array of buffers can sometimes mess with things (fuzzes, wahs, bad designs... :) ). If you look at some meditated pedalboards the builder usually combine both methods: true bypass for the whole chain but buffered in/out.
However, I've seen the boss scheme adapted to modern times in some places (mictester @FSB or fuzzo @smokingtip.wordpress use variations in their designs).
I thought the purpose of the Momentary stomp + relay setup was to duplicate the discreet-based switching like you find in a BOSS-type pedal except it is true bypass.
The switching I am referring to is the Finish Line. Isn't that a click-less true bypass relay system?
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on March 23, 2015, 11:21:23 PM
I thought the purpose of the Momentary stomp + relay setup was to duplicate the discreet-based switching like you find in a BOSS-type pedal except it is true bypass.
The switching I am referring to is the Finish Line. Isn't that a click-less true bypass relay system?
Yeah, it uses a momentary switch.
Quote from: jubal81 on March 23, 2015, 11:29:00 PM
Yeah, it uses a momentary switch.
Yes. This was what I was referring to. The optical bypass system still uses the "clicking" DPDT switches so there is still the sound present just like the 3PDTs.
So what is the benefit of scrapping the 3PDTs and going with the opto bypass if you still get the click?
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on March 23, 2015, 11:31:20 PM
Quote from: jubal81 on March 23, 2015, 11:29:00 PM
Yeah, it uses a momentary switch.
Yes. This was what I was referring to. The optical bypass system still uses the "clicking" DPDT switches so there is still the sound present just like the 3PDTs.
So what is the benefit of scrapping the 3PDTs and going with the opto bypass if you still get the click?
They're more reliable. And it's a much nicer click.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on March 23, 2015, 11:21:23 PM
I thought the purpose of the Momentary stomp + relay setup was to duplicate the discreet-based switching like you find in a BOSS-type pedal except it is true bypass.
The switching I am referring to is the Finish Line. Isn't that a click-less true bypass relay system?
The idea behind going with an alternative to the 3PDT is simply reliability on the long term run.
From a mechanical aspect, the actuation of a momentary switch involve a lot less than a latching 3DPT, much less components in the SPST, etc... the conductive material on the internal flip-flops of a 3PDT where out, bends... depending of how foot heavy is the user...thus creating bad contact, resulting in POPs, signal shorting, etc.
Quote from: jubal81 on March 23, 2015, 11:32:47 PM
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on March 23, 2015, 11:31:20 PM
Quote from: jubal81 on March 23, 2015, 11:29:00 PM
Yeah, it uses a momentary switch.
Yes. This was what I was referring to. The optical bypass system still uses the "clicking" DPDT switches so there is still the sound present just like the 3PDTs.
So what is the benefit of scrapping the 3PDTs and going with the opto bypass if you still get the click?
They're more reliable. And it's a much nicer click.
Nicer in both feeling & sound. If you play rock venues maybe the click doesn't bother you, but when playing with a singer in duo/trio, those are noticeable and kill the mood.
For me it is optotron or clickless (and I haven't had any pop issues with the optotron).
Never played much more than living room entertainment however, the general consensus is that the click from a 3PDT is loud enough to be heard on stage?
I know they click but.... not that loud.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on March 23, 2015, 11:41:04 PM
Never played much more than living room entertainment however, the general consensus is that the click from a 3PDT is loud enough to be hear on stage?
I know they click but.... not that loud.
not in stage, but more like in a pub situation
I think there are two issues at play here:
1). Reliability. I think the main reason the OP wants to ditch 3PDTs is because they have a higher failure rate. Latching DPDT latched switches may still click but the better ones tend to be more reliable. If you want true bypass with an LED you need a bit more than just the switch however, so optical is an option for that.
2). The other issue is clicking and popping. Some folks don't like the click of the switch and a momentary will probably make them happier. But at live volume settings, a switch click isn't usually very audible. Switch popping is an entirely different issue. This goes through the signal chain and can be heard through the amp. Louder amp = louder pop. And this can happen with any switching scheme, including relay.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
PPP is mentioned as a good source for Alpha 3pdt's, who is/are the go to suppliers for Alpha 2pdt's, i've bought from Small Bear, any others?
dave
Devil's advocate, but my mate Jodie didn't like the Wicked Switch setup in my MN3008 Dirtbag, chiefly because of the soft touch switch (as opposed to feeling a hard actuation through the foot.)
So people like using switching schemes with dpdt's just because they are more reliable? Regarding popping... that's my main issue. I think alpha's 3pdt is pretty reliable for me... I'd always like more reliable.
Besides relay switching, what methods would have the least noise?
Quote from: pickdropper on March 23, 2015, 11:53:44 PM
I think there are two issues at play here:
1). Reliability. I think the main reason the OP wants to ditch 3PDTs is because they have a higher failure rate. Latching DPDT latched switches may still click but the better ones tend to be more reliable. If you want true bypass with an LED you need a bit more than just the switch however, so optical is an option for that.
2). The other issue is clicking and popping. Some folks don't like the click of the switch and a momentary will probably make them happier. But at live volume settings, a switch click isn't usually very audible. Switch popping is an entirely different issue. This goes through the signal chain and can be heard through the amp. Louder amp = louder pop. And this can happen with any switching scheme, including relay.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Bingo. Reliability is it for me - I generally speaking don't usually have issues with switch pop, at least not enough to bother me. I've used Thomas H's relay bypass before, and really like the action of the soft touch momentaries. I need to look into options that don't need microcontrollers, as I'd really like to design my own boards (if it will in fact work out cheaper)
Long story short, I think I'll order a bunch of different relay/opto switch options, figure out which I prefer, and work out my own implementation.
Regarding the alpha dpdt's, can any one comment on the quality of the equivalent from Tayda or BLMS?
(Although I think in light of recent failures, my motto will be "accept no substitutes" )
I think I will stick to the real deal, unless there is compelling arguments for the cheapies (not just price)
/rant ;)
The ones I've ordered from Tayda are the generic blue ones... Of the 7, I've used so far, one shattered internally after about 20 clicks, and 4 of them send pops down the audio chain (but they didn't for the first 100 clicks or so)... The other 3 are holding up (for now)... but any popping is unacceptable when you're playing in a worship band, playing a nice slow song, about to switch to that killer slow lead and BOOM (Boom boom bm bm, thanks to the echo).
I just spent the last day breadboarding an opto based solution with 3 NSL32s I have in my stock and an arduino to switch them... At least on the breadboard, it works like a charm, tomorrow it's putting them into a PCB...
Any suggestions on the best optos to use for this without breaking the bank?
I dunno, it's a fun little game... you're sitting crosslegged next to the pedalboard listening to the sermon... can you time your CLICKs to the roars of the preacher, as opposed to the nadir (CLICK-next-to-quiet-whisper)
In their favour, churches, most awesome natural room reverb ever.
Relay switching is the best for me. What sets it apart for me is the ability to use any type of funky switch available which pushes the envelope aesthetically for us builders as well - I can make pedals look a certain way. The main gripe for me with the 3PDT switch is not even the reliability (and the do fail miserably at that) but the click noise and the overall lumberjack-ish feel. I'm sure a lot of folks playing a balad on stage with an airy atmosphere see it as an absolute buzzkill when they stomp on a 3pdt and the whole stage goes BOOM. That's just off-putting so much.
Another advantage of relay switching for us builders is the ability to cram more stuff in a smaller box because a cool funky button-like switch can be so small in size it's ridiculous. Dunno, they just work for me and have a super pro feel. A friend just bought a rockbox boiling point (in spite of me telling him that it's just a TS with additional options :P) and the 3pdt died in a week. I said to him, cool, let's upgrade that shit to a relay switching thing, he said no, no way, I wan't it to be exactly like it was. Suit yourself dude. Suit yourself.
Quote from: davent on March 24, 2015, 12:33:07 AM
PPP is mentioned as a good source for Alpha 3pdt's, who is/are the go to suppliers for Alpha 2pdt's, i've bought from Small Bear, any others?
dave
In the UK I've found Rapid to be the cheapest for Alpha DPDT's and RS for H11F1's, neither of which are my normal suppliers though.
If I'm wrong then chime in.
Forgot to say I actually prefer the little click of the alpha dpdt over the non-click momentarys. I guess its the slight tactile feedback. Also, so far I've had no pops with optical.
Quote from: mmlee on March 26, 2015, 12:33:17 PM
Quote from: davent on March 24, 2015, 12:33:07 AM
PPP is mentioned as a good source for Alpha 3pdt's, who is/are the go to suppliers for Alpha 2pdt's, i've bought from Small Bear, any others?
dave
In the UK I've found Rapid to be the cheapest for Alpha DPDT's and RS for H11F1's, neither of which are my normal suppliers though.
If I'm wrong then chime in.
Spot on for both. I get H11F1V from RS as a 'production pack'. It involves buying bulk (think I got 75 last time), but makes them very reasonable.
I'm stuck here in Canada, any secret sources of the Alpha 2pdt out there Canada friendly, and i'm only buying ten or so at a time, don't build a lot.
dave
I just spent some time talking with an engineer who specializes in hi-fi audio devices (He mainly designs speaker/amplifier systems). I was asking him to recommend a good optocoupler for the task, and he replied "none of them". He said my NLS32 switch probably did sound fine to me, but when you have 4 or 5 pedals in the chain, that high resistance will suck the tone out, and I'll need boosters galore to make up for it, i.e distortion... most of the optocouplers out there aren't designed for audio, and introduce... distortion... He pointed me to a DG413 digital switch http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Intersil/DG413DJZ/?qs=%2fha2pyFadujfDDcW%252bvCOvHF8bn6BtXIPejAzdL9RvAk%3d (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Intersil/DG413DJZ/?qs=%2fha2pyFadujfDDcW%252bvCOvHF8bn6BtXIPejAzdL9RvAk%3d)... 4 switches in a PDip16 package, 2 switches NO, two switches NC.. And they're pretty reasonable (about $2.50 at mouser, or $2.02 if you buy a tube, compared to $9.00 for 3 NSL32). Since the chip has two NO and two NC, one could design a circuit with a SPST latching switch and still include a status LED or run an SPST momentary into a bistable flip flop (and yes, still have the LED).
Of course, the engineer won't draft the schematic for me, but he assured me that if I could design the NSL32 soft switch setup, this would be a cakewalk.
So off to order chips and load up DipTrace.
Quote from: Tkrain42 on March 27, 2015, 12:34:48 AM
I just spent some time talking with an engineer who specializes in hi-fi audio devices (He mainly designs speaker/amplifier systems). I was asking him to recommend a good optocoupler for the task, and he replied "none of them". He said my NLS32 switch probably did sound fine to me, but when you have 4 or 5 pedals in the chain, that high resistance will suck the tone out, and I'll need boosters galore to make up for it, i.e distortion... most of the optocouplers out there aren't designed for audio, and introduce... distortion... He pointed me to a DG413 digital switch http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Intersil/DG413DJZ/?qs=%2fha2pyFadujfDDcW%252bvCOvHF8bn6BtXIPejAzdL9RvAk%3d (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Intersil/DG413DJZ/?qs=%2fha2pyFadujfDDcW%252bvCOvHF8bn6BtXIPejAzdL9RvAk%3d)... 4 switches in a PDip16 package, 2 switches NO, two switches NC.. And they're pretty reasonable (about $2.50 at mouser, or $2.02 if you buy a tube, compared to $9.00 for 3 NSL32). Since the chip has two NO and two NC, one could design a circuit with a SPST latching switch and still include a status LED or run an SPST momentary into a bistable flip flop (and yes, still have the LED).
Of course, the engineer won't draft the schematic for me, but he assured me that if I could design the NSL32 soft switch setup, this would be a cakewalk.
So off to order chips and load up DipTrace.
They optical system we've been discussing uses a mosfet-based coupler. The series resistance is about 30 Ohms and only in the signal path when the effect is on.
Yes, I looked at it earlier... unfortunately, I didn't have that particular part number handy when I was talking to Don (the engineer). I'll show it to him tomorrow, if he happens to come by the plant, but I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the DG413, since I found them at FutureElectronics for about 1.25... Since I'd need 3 of the H11F1 to build one switch... not to mention more hardware, I'm personally going to run with the DG413.
This is an interesting thread, will be interesting to see all the different alternatives and how they work out.
I'm digging relay switching at present.
Quote from: juansolo on March 26, 2015, 09:35:51 AM
In their favour, churches, most awesome natural room reverb ever.
Many great acoustic designs for choirs and such in church buildings. Had the pleasure of using a circular building designed for worship as a rehearsal / youth center many years ago... what a joy to play a 4x12 into a great reverberant room...
end hijack/
I used boss pedals exclusively throughout my career and didn't even think about the momentary switching until building my own. But i am very interested in finding the best alternative.
Looking at the DG413 data sheet, it appears that this particular switch uses a low level logic signal, 2 volt max for switching which will need to be taken into account.
http://www.vishay.com/docs/70050/dg411.pdf (http://www.vishay.com/docs/70050/dg411.pdf)
Regarding the H11F1, last night I looked at one with the scope and signal generator. Biasing the led to 20 ma, it tested 80 ohms on resistance - don't remember the off. I threw a 20 v p-p signal (sine) with a wavetek signal generator and measured a 8 mv out voltage in series switch "off" configuration with a 1 meg resistor to ground. The signal retained it's integrity, without distortion at the high p-p range which is important to me as a tube amp builder.
IF I was looking into a switching system at the very front, IMHO it would be hard to beat a mechanical relay series configured followed with an H11F1 in a shunt configuration to mitigate the pops. The mechanical relay will avoid the tone roll off mentioned above by having minimal resistance and capacitance in the series configuration and the H11F1 with its' faster response time would then minimize any relay pop.
So there are a few opinions in this thread about the Alpha DPDT "light click" vs. a SPST momentary "no click" switch... does anyone know of any video review/comparisons of different effects pedal switching possibilities?
Quote from: john_p_wi on March 27, 2015, 01:09:47 PM
Looking at the DG413 data sheet, it appears that this particular switch uses a low level logic signal, 2 volt max for switching which will need to be taken into account.
Actually, it's a 5 volt switch... that's how digital logic works, for this board anything under the 0.8 volts is "Low", anything over 2.4 volts is "High". For my own design (I've got 7 stomps in one box) I'm going to use an Arduino to sense the momentary switches and toggle the appropriate digital switches. With this setup, one Arduino can control all 7, and I can even make "setups" (i.e. when this distortion is engaged, turn the other 3 off, or pushing this button engages this configuration, etc). It's something I've wanted to do for a while anyways, and getting completely pissed off at those godforsaken blue 3pdt switches has gotten me off my keaster to do something about it.
Parts and PCBs are ordered... I'll know how it all works in a week or two.
Anyone know of any articles on what is needed to be done with the microcontroller, relay and optical chip to make a silent, mute-while-switch deal? I'd like to learn and then build my own... mostly for an exercise in learning and building, but also because I want a silent switch and still add in some of the other cool things that can be found on some 3PDT switch boards, such as power filtering, trim on the LED to adjust brightness, etc.
From what I gather, TH-Customs' Uber-Switch does this, and even though there's a schematic that I've looked over a lot, the process isn't explained in the BOM.
Edit: Wow, if it was a snake it would have bit me. Found my answer: http://diy.thcustom.com/switching-relay-true-bypass-circuits-using-a-microcontroller/
An easy overview of an approach is as follows:
The relay is in series with the signal and is used as a "series" switch.
The opto follows the the relay and is a "shunt" to ground.
The micro controller would:
1) Energize the opto shunting the signal to ground.
2) Dwell enough time for the opto to activate
3) Energize / switch the relay
4) After the switching time of the armature, de energize the opto.
5) have good relay power isolation to avoid the inductive pop passing through the signal circuit power supply.
Keeping all of this around 20 ms will make for an uninterrupted noiseless switch.
Quote from: Justus on April 01, 2015, 03:16:23 PM
Anyone know of any articles on what is needed to be done with the microcontroller, relay and optical chip to make a silent, mute-while-switch deal? I'd like to learn and then build my own... mostly for an exercise in learning and building, but also because I want a silent switch and still add in some of the other cool things that can be found on some 3PDT switch boards, such as power filtering, trim on the LED to adjust brightness, etc.
From what I gather, TH-Customs' Uber-Switch does this, and even though there's a schematic that I've looked over a lot, the process isn't explained in the BOM.
Edit: Wow, if it was a snake it would have bit me. Found my answer: http://diy.thcustom.com/switching-relay-true-bypass-circuits-using-a-microcontroller/
you can check these articles too:
http://stompville.co.uk/?p=260
http://stompville.co.uk/?p=423
Very descriptive and with links to debouncing routines
Quote from: micromegas on April 01, 2015, 04:22:55 PM
Quote from: Justus on April 01, 2015, 03:16:23 PM
Anyone know of any articles on what is needed to be done with the microcontroller, relay and optical chip to make a silent, mute-while-switch deal? I'd like to learn and then build my own... mostly for an exercise in learning and building, but also because I want a silent switch and still add in some of the other cool things that can be found on some 3PDT switch boards, such as power filtering, trim on the LED to adjust brightness, etc.
From what I gather, TH-Customs' Uber-Switch does this, and even though there's a schematic that I've looked over a lot, the process isn't explained in the BOM.
Edit: Wow, if it was a snake it would have bit me. Found my answer: http://diy.thcustom.com/switching-relay-true-bypass-circuits-using-a-microcontroller/
you can check these articles too:
http://stompville.co.uk/?p=260
http://stompville.co.uk/?p=423
Very descriptive and with links to debouncing routines
Awesome, thank you!
Quote from: micromegas on March 23, 2015, 08:43:38 AM
I get my H11F1 from a local dealer. You could contact your nearest dealer, they usually have easy acces to those.
Maybe you could pm Paul (Cromesphere). I think it might be a good addition to his shop and make opto-fets something accesible for all the guys in the Pacific (and for us, Paul shipping rate is ridiculously low!).
I've been using Josh's Optotrons for a while and do not see myself going back to 3pdts.
However, I would like to try Rullywow's too, they have a smaller footprint and the TP222G is a little better than the H11F1.
I can get the h11f1 but not the tp222g. Ill request a quote from a few of my suppliers for the h11f1 and throw a few on the store for anyone needing them in my neck of the woods. Cheers.
Let me know when you get them in Paul, I'll probably take 10, depending on price
Well... we are currently offering them in our groupbuy at 1$ each, 3.50$ shipping worldwide, no quantity limit....
That's a good price! I don't think I would be able to beat that but I will let you know what I can scratch up.
As expected my price is more, Your looking at $2.80 aud versus $1.00 usd (approx. $1.30 aud). Ill stick a bunch on the store for those that want to add one or two with other order items but for bulk, definitely want to take up Rej in his group buy!
Cheers
Paul
Quote from: chromesphere on April 02, 2015, 02:07:17 AM
As expected my price is more, Your looking at $2.80 aud versus $1.00 usd (approx. $1.30 aud). Ill stick a bunch on the store for those that want to add one or two with other order items but for bulk, definitely want to take up Rej in his group buy!
Cheers
Paul
Sending you a PM ;)
Quote from: GrindCustoms on April 02, 2015, 01:02:01 AM
Well... we are currently offering them in our groupbuy at 1$ each, 3.50$ shipping worldwide, no quantity limit....
Ok sweet :) didn't realise you were selling the optos seperately - I'll put myself down for a bunch of optos as well as a few of the opto and board combos ;)
Doe anyone know a reason why I couldn't use a H11F1VM (as opposed to H11F1M)?
They are considerably cheaper on Mouser.
The only difference I can see from the datasheet is that it has an IEC approval (to quote):
(Example) Description
No option H11F1M Standard Through Hole Device
S H11F1SM Surface Mount Lead Bend
SR2 H11F1SR2M Surface Mount; Tape and Reel
V H11F1VM IEC60747-5-2 approval
TV H11F1TVM IEC60747-5-2 approval, 0.4" Lead Spacing
SV H11F1SVM IEC60747-5-2 approval, Surface Mount
SR2V H11F1SR2VM IEC60747-5-2 approval, Surface Mount, Tape and Reel
Quote from: raulduke on April 15, 2015, 08:44:59 AM
Doe anyone know a reason why I couldn't use a H11F1VM (as opposed to H11F1M)?
They are considerably cheaper on Mouser.
The only difference I can see from the datasheet is that it has an IEC approval (to quote):
(Example) Description
No option H11F1M Standard Through Hole Device
S H11F1SM Surface Mount Lead Bend
SR2 H11F1SR2M Surface Mount; Tape and Reel
V H11F1VM IEC60747-5-2 approval
TV H11F1TVM IEC60747-5-2 approval, 0.4" Lead Spacing
SV H11F1SVM IEC60747-5-2 approval, Surface Mount
SR2V H11F1SR2VM IEC60747-5-2 approval, Surface Mount, Tape and Reel
No reason to not use them, we've tested those side by side with the H11F1M and a bunch load of other Optocouplers... and it's those that are purchased for our Lumen GB.
Quote from: GrindCustoms on April 15, 2015, 08:51:54 AM
Quote from: raulduke on April 15, 2015, 08:44:59 AM
Doe anyone know a reason why I couldn't use a H11F1VM (as opposed to H11F1M)?
They are considerably cheaper on Mouser.
The only difference I can see from the datasheet is that it has an IEC approval (to quote):
(Example) Description
No option H11F1M Standard Through Hole Device
S H11F1SM Surface Mount Lead Bend
SR2 H11F1SR2M Surface Mount; Tape and Reel
V H11F1VM IEC60747-5-2 approval
TV H11F1TVM IEC60747-5-2 approval, 0.4" Lead Spacing
SV H11F1SVM IEC60747-5-2 approval, Surface Mount
SR2V H11F1SR2VM IEC60747-5-2 approval, Surface Mount, Tape and Reel
No reason to not use them, we've tested those side by side with the H11F1M and a bunch load of other Optocouplers... and it's those that are purchased for our Lumen GB.
That's good to know.
I guess they are cheaper because Mouser have bought a shit ton of them (my usual instincts tell me if it's cheaper... then
something must be up) ;D
Quote from: raulduke on April 15, 2015, 09:23:54 AM
Quote from: GrindCustoms on April 15, 2015, 08:51:54 AM
Quote from: raulduke on April 15, 2015, 08:44:59 AM
Doe anyone know a reason why I couldn't use a H11F1VM (as opposed to H11F1M)?
They are considerably cheaper on Mouser.
The only difference I can see from the datasheet is that it has an IEC approval (to quote):
(Example) Description
No option H11F1M Standard Through Hole Device
S H11F1SM Surface Mount Lead Bend
SR2 H11F1SR2M Surface Mount; Tape and Reel
V H11F1VM IEC60747-5-2 approval
TV H11F1TVM IEC60747-5-2 approval, 0.4" Lead Spacing
SV H11F1SVM IEC60747-5-2 approval, Surface Mount
SR2V H11F1SR2VM IEC60747-5-2 approval, Surface Mount, Tape and Reel
No reason to not use them, we've tested those side by side with the H11F1M and a bunch load of other Optocouplers... and it's those that are purchased for our Lumen GB.
That's good to know.
I guess they are cheaper because Mouser have bought a shit ton of them (my usual instincts tell me if it's cheaper... then something must be up) ;D
They're probably cheaper because they have the IEC approval and are more used by manufacturers, that's my thought.. that was also confirmed after i talked on phone with the good folks at Mouser.
Quote from: raulduke on April 15, 2015, 08:44:59 AM
Doe anyone know a reason why I couldn't use a H11F1VM (as opposed to H11F1M)?
They are considerably cheaper on Mouser.
The only difference I can see from the datasheet is that it has an IEC approval (to quote):
(Example) Description
No option H11F1M Standard Through Hole Device
S H11F1SM Surface Mount Lead Bend
SR2 H11F1SR2M Surface Mount; Tape and Reel
V H11F1VM IEC60747-5-2 approval
TV H11F1TVM IEC60747-5-2 approval, 0.4" Lead Spacing
SV H11F1SVM IEC60747-5-2 approval, Surface Mount
SR2V H11F1SR2VM IEC60747-5-2 approval, Surface Mount, Tape and Reel
We use VM's. We get them as a Production Pack from RS (50 minimum I think, or it might be in packs of 25, either way it's cheaper than anywhere else in the UK by lots).