How do you guys go around thinking of original names?
I want to think of a name that will be original to me, like a brand lets say. Any thing I think of that can be used is usually taken. Not necessarily by a pedal company but somebody on the internet. For example a band or a tumblr blog. Where would the legality be if I used the same name? Good, Bad or Ugly? Would I be better off using "example name" pedals instead. I would much rather use "example name" than attach pedals/electronics/industries ect.. to it.
I'm only a hobbyist but still I would like to have a labelling system and logo so I know what I've made once I have sold it. If I choose to sell it. I don't want to spend hours designing logos and graphics if the end product could be illegal. I know I wouldn't get sued or taken to court simple because I wouldn't be making millions of dollars and there would be nothing to get from me. I just want to prevent any idiots arguing with me ::)
Usually the domain names are available...
Anybody with experience in this area?
Well, just because you are small doesn't necessarily mean you won't get sued. It sounds silly, but companies with protected property are often required to show they have defended it or they may lose exclusivity rights in the future.
But I'm not a legal expert when it comes to this stuff. Your post is (obviously intentionally) extremely vague, so I don't know if what you are considering would bring you potential issues or not.
IANAL but if you are in a totally different industry, trademarks and such don't always really apply. Like you could call them "Tide Pedals" or something and since the Tide people aint in the guitar effect business (nor anything like it), you could possibly get away with it. In any event though, if the name or something very close to it is already being used, you probably want to steer clear to avoid any headaches. If all you are coming up with is something that's already in use, you might be thinking inside the box too much. Or possibly being overzealous with the Google searches. Worse case, you can always just call em Pedals by Joe Blow.
Mine came from a friend who was making fun of me and my noise toys. I have only put it on a few pedals, but I like to use noise toys pedals.
Caution Jimi, these are in the same business: http://noisetoysimports.com.au/
My misses makes gem shoes and wanted to put a a logo in them, a star (her family name) with a CC inside it (C for Charmain and the other C for her new surname that she is getting next year!). I've put her off that idea as the CC she was looking at doing was to much like the Channel bbrand and don't want to risk her getting sued.
Problem is with brands, especially big brands, and logos or names that looks like one of theirs but isn't, even if it's in a different industry, can damage their brand and they will fight tooth and nail to protect it.
My advice, and although it's hard thinking of names, is to come up with an original name. Even if you're not planning on selling any pedals. I never, ever planned to sell any pedals, but everytime I build a new one, one of my friends want one, so I end up selling them one for a little bit more then it costs me to make (to cover the cost of the pedal I finally get to keep). I'll never get rich doing it, but it keeps me entertained and I enjoy doing it.
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How long could it have taken Brian Wampler to decide on a brand?
Could anybody sue your for using your own name?
Maybe you have to add something to make it distinct like "Pedals", Town, Country, "Handmade", whatever.
But even if you come up with some original brand it isn't yours if you don't register it.
Quote from: kothoma on July 28, 2013, 09:12:41 AM
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Could anybody sue your for using your own name?
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If your name happens to be Disney, then yes.
Quote from: RobA on July 28, 2013, 09:15:54 AM
Quote from: kothoma on July 28, 2013, 09:12:41 AM
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Could anybody sue your for using your own name?
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If your name happens to be Disney, then yes.
So what about Donald Disney Pedals Detroid and you happen to have that name and live there?
(Just don't use a script font.)
Quote from: kothoma on July 28, 2013, 09:19:23 AM
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So what about Donald Disney Pedals Detroid and you happen to have that name and live there?
You'd still lose. We're talking about the company that has pretty much universally abused and had changed copyright systems to make sure that no one ever gets to make a cartoon about a certain mouse.
Seriously though, your name really doesn't have any bearing on trademark law.
It is hard to come up with viable names now. I've worked at several startups where we were involved in naming the company or products. It's not easy. The global nature of the internet makes it even more difficult. The part about being in non-competing industries isn't even all that clear now. If a company has a big enough presence, it's not going to help you if you don't make hamburgers and they do.
It's kinda like band names too. No one gets to be The Who or Yes or The Band anymore.
As for pedal names: never use existing names/logos/artwork even if you think they're history.
(Remember that story of ch1naski: http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=10179.0)
Furthermore, any time you want to evoke certain associations you're probably in trouble.
Quote from: RobA on July 28, 2013, 09:40:41 AM
Quote from: kothoma on July 28, 2013, 09:19:23 AM
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So what about Donald Disney Pedals Detroid and you happen to have that name and live there?
You'd still lose. We're talking about the company that has pretty much universally abused and had changed copyright systems to make sure that no one ever gets to make a cartoon about a certain mouse.
Seriously though, your name really doesn't have any bearing on trademark law.
It is hard to come up with viable names now. I've worked at several startups where we were involved in naming the company or products. It's not easy. The global nature of the internet makes it even more difficult. The part about being in non-competing industries isn't even all that clear now. If a company has a big enough presence, it's not going to help you if you don't make hamburgers and they do.
It's kinda like band names too. No one gets to be The Who or Yes or The Band anymore.
I totally agree. You have not much legal rights to the name you inherited.
But I consider it less likely for a humble man to get in trouble using his honest name.
Haha, just remember something. The company I work for sued a (quite unknown) band and forced them to change the name.
Personally, I think he was extremely lucky in that the guy bought the pedal off him. There are many different routes he could have gone, but it seems he was as nice as he could be about it.
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Quote from: RobA on July 28, 2013, 09:40:41 AM
Quote from: kothoma on July 28, 2013, 09:19:23 AM
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So what about Donald Disney Pedals Detroid and you happen to have that name and live there?
You'd still lose. We're talking about the company that has pretty much universally abused and had changed copyright systems to make sure that no one ever gets to make a cartoon about a certain mouse.
Seriously though, your name really doesn't have any bearing on trademark law.
It is hard to come up with viable names now. I've worked at several startups where we were involved in naming the company or products. It's not easy. The global nature of the internet makes it even more difficult. The part about being in non-competing industries isn't even all that clear now. If a company has a big enough presence, it's not going to help you if you don't make hamburgers and they do.
It's kinda like band names too. No one gets to be The Who or Yes or The Band anymore.
Hell, even the big companies get sued.
Case in point, a few years back Monster Cable went nuts and sued seemingly everybody they could find who used Monster in their business name or as a title of their work. They even sued Disney (although it doesn't appear that they won).
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123869022704882969.html
Quote from: kothoma on July 28, 2013, 09:12:41 AM
How long could it have taken Brian Wampler to decide on a brand?
Could anybody sue your for using your own name?
Maybe you have to add something to make it distinct like "Pedals", Town, Country, "Handmade", whatever.
But even if you come up with some original brand it isn't yours if you don't register it.
Sounds simple enough... My last name is the same as Genghis Khan's birth name with a different spelling. I'd like to buy the domain name and stuff just so I can say that I own it. But that domain is $10K+ although it is not in use.
That 10k really ain't 10k. People park those things and just want to get something for it. My company had the same issue a few years back, a squatter wanted like 20k for it and we wound up getting it for maybe $500.
Quote from: pickdropper on July 28, 2013, 01:29:01 PM
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Hell, even the big companies get sued.
Case in point, a few years back Monster Cable went nuts and sued seemingly everybody they could find who used Monster in their business name or as a title of their work. They even sued Disney (although it doesn't appear that they won).
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123869022704882969.html
Wow. Add one more reason not to by anything from Monster Cable -- not that I actually needed another reason.
Quote from: RobA on July 28, 2013, 03:45:15 PM
Quote from: pickdropper on July 28, 2013, 01:29:01 PM
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Hell, even the big companies get sued.
Case in point, a few years back Monster Cable went nuts and sued seemingly everybody they could find who used Monster in their business name or as a title of their work. They even sued Disney (although it doesn't appear that they won).
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123869022704882969.html
Wow. Add one more reason not to by anything from Monster Cable -- not that I actually needed another reason.
Well, if you found that interesting, this is WAY better.
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/legal/mcp/
Short summary: Monster sued a small company named Blue Jeans Cable. I suspect they didn't realize the owner of the small company was a former litigator. His rebuttal letters to Monster are priceless. He completely shuts them down. I think my two favorite part is when he points out their holding company in Bermuda, presumably there for tax shelter reasons. It doesn't get any better than that.
It's long, but really worth the read.
Quote from: kothoma on July 28, 2013, 09:48:37 AMAs for pedal names: never use existing names/logos/artwork even if you think they're history.
(Remember that story of ch1naski: http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=10179.0)
Furthermore, any time you want to evoke certain associations you're probably in trouble.
Ha, I was just going to mention that fiasco.
:P
I usually Google the name of a pedal I'm thinking of using, first, now.
I had built a doombutter, called it "echobender" and put the decal with that name on it, etc., finished the enclosure..... Then I found that there already was a pedal called that out there.
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Quote from: stevie1556 on July 28, 2013, 10:02:15 AM
Personally, I think he was extremely lucky in that the guy bought the pedal off him. There are many different routes he could have gone, but it seems he was as nice as he could be about it.
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nice..... Maybe. Pretty sure from my correspondence with him that he is planning to market it.
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I re-read my OP and I've realised it's a little vague.... A better way of wording it would be:
How have you guys decide on a name ei: Madbean, 1776 effects, earthquaker devices, that is not already taken and does not interfere with intellectual property of others? Is just a case of months of thinking?
I have many ideas that have been used for other purposes. Therefore I do not want to use them. I have a feeling that I am thinking a little bit inside the box since I have set myself two potential themes.
Quote from: pickdropper on July 28, 2013, 04:34:21 PM
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Well, if you found that interesting, this is WAY better.
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/legal/mcp/
Short summary: Monster sued a small company named Blue Jeans Cable. I suspect they didn't realize the owner of the small company was a former litigator. His rebuttal letters to Monster are priceless. He completely shuts them down. I think my two favorite part is when he points out their holding company in Bermuda, presumably there for tax shelter reasons. It doesn't get any better than that.
It's long, but really worth the read.
Yeah, that was nicely done. It would be great if the big companies would do the same kind of response, but it seems that it is more to their benefit to keep the whole scam running instead.
I think the best way to approach this is to choose something that's really close to something you like a lot, or characterizes you as a person/builder/musician, and take it from there. Then once you've found something with a nice ring to it, check with Google. For me it was quite easy: I mentioned here that I was soldering on top of our laundry machine and got a comment about it better not going into the spin cycle while I was soldering; Spincycle FX!
Paul
Haha, can you be sure that if you google something new google not miraculously gains ownership?
Quote from: kothoma on July 28, 2013, 06:31:18 PM
Haha, can you be sure that if you google something new google not miraculously gains ownership?
Now this would scary..... ;)
Quote from: kothoma on July 28, 2013, 06:31:18 PM
Haha, can you be sure that if you google something new google not miraculously gains ownership?
Well, Google doesn't seem to be in the domain name ownership business. But, I have suspicions that this does happen with some less than scrupulous registrars.
I just had to google the word "göögle". This came up:
http://www.göögle.se/ (http://www.xn--ggle-5qaa.se/)
;D
Quote from: kothoma on July 28, 2013, 09:12:41 AM
Could anybody sue your for using your own name?
Absolutely.
There was a case a few years ago in which a woman opened a coffee shop in her hometown. Her last name was actually Starbuck, and she called it "Starbuck's Coffe Shoppe" or something similar. The corporate overlords at Starbucks went after her with a vengeance, and she ended being forced to change the name, even though it was her actual last name.
As Pickdropper pointed out, the trademark protecting names of companies or brands or whatever is only as good as the company's ability to prove they have aggressively defended it. In other words, they *have* to manhandle the small players who accidentally step on their trademarks so that when a big competitor infringes, they can show the courts that they have a history of actively defending their trademark. It works in a similar way with patents. It's kinda crappy, but that's how it is.
My advice, which is merely friendly and not in
any way legal advice, is that if you have any hesitation at all about using a certain name, then don't. You may be running a tiny operation now, but if you ever did get any bigger, you will attract the wrong kind of attention. ;)
Quote from: Vallhagen on July 28, 2013, 07:36:18 PM
I just had to google the word "göögle". This came up:
http://www.göögle.se/ (http://www.xn--ggle-5qaa.se/)
;D
?
?
? ...
Do you suppose it was the creator of the video that put up the website, or was some non-related individual so overwhelmed by the experience of watching that they felt the need to dedicate and entire website to just that video?
Quote from: culturejam on July 28, 2013, 07:58:48 PM
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As Pickdropper pointed out, the trademark protecting names of companies or brands or whatever is only as good as the company's ability to prove they have aggressively defended it. In other words, they *have* to manhandle the small players who accidentally step on their trademarks so that when a big competitor infringes, they can show the courts that they have a history of actively defending their trademark. It works in a similar way with patents. It's kinda crappy, but that's how it is.
...
Just to make this clear, I'm not a lawyer and I have no idea what I'm talking about :D, but hey, here goes anyway. They don't actually have to go after every perceived infringement. Here's a quote from the wiki page on trademark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark)
Quote
It is not necessary for a trademark owner to take enforcement action against all infringement if it can be shown that the owner perceived the infringement to be minor and inconsequential.
To be clear, this isn't to protect the small guy. It's designed to keep the trademark owner from having to go to court all the time to defend their trademark. Still, it does give them some discretion in what they prosecute. The Wiki page also points out that there are classifications that limit the scope of trademark and it certainly wouldn't be required to threaten someone outside the area covered by your trademark.
Patents are very different and as far as I know, you aren't required to defend them to maintain them at all. Although, I really have no idea how that applies to design patents.
All that said, I still think it is wise to make every effort to avoid stepping on anyone else's trademarks. Look at it this way, even if you are only doing this in a small way for fun now, they might change later. You'd want to be able to maintain any name recognition you've developed over time.
Also, you really need to be able to rank fairly high in web searches with your name if you want anyone to be able to find you.
Quote from: RobA on July 28, 2013, 08:00:08 PM
?
?
? ...
Do you suppose it was the creator of the video that put up the website, or was some non-related individual so overwhelmed by the experience of watching that they felt the need to dedicate and entire website to just that video?
No idea at all.. really. I just thought it was pure fun, and that it in some far-fetched way was on topic... Maybe its just my bad humor...
Cheers
Well, the Pink Fractals name might be considered off limits now :D.
Did you happen to wander over to YouTube and look at the guys other videos? Specifically, this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HonyQqVXg_o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HonyQqVXg_o)
Quote from: RobA on July 28, 2013, 08:25:13 PM
Just to make this clear, I'm not a lawyer and I have no idea what I'm talking about :D, but hey, here goes anyway. They don't actually have to go after every perceived infringement.
If we're talking different industries/markets, then I think you're right. But if you start up a car company called FORD'S Car Company, even if you only make/sell 10 cars a year, I can just about guarantee you'll get a nasty-gram from Ford Motor Co's counsel. Size is not always relevant. It's the degree of "consumer confusion", or whatever the legal-bots call it. At least that's my understanding of it, but I'm certainly not a lawyer. So anyone reading this should do their own research or contact an attorney for clarity.
Quote from: RobA on July 28, 2013, 08:25:13 PMPatents are very different and as far as I know, you aren't required to defend them to maintain them at all. Although, I really have no idea how that applies to design patents.
None of the "aggressive defense" stuff for trademarks or patents is actually
required. But it may help in a future infringement case, and so you see big companies just throw their weight around. I think they do it more out of due diligence (read: CYA) than anything resembling a requirement. ;D
Another matter to consider is that you don't have to have done anything illegal or infringing to get sued. Someone with a serious grudge and a deep pocket can make your life complicated and cost you a lot of time/money/stress if they really want to. They'll lose the case, but they win because they made you miserable and cost you some cash.
And the Monster lawsuits show how some companies stretch the definitions of consumer confusion.
Did they really think that Consumers would confuse their cables with Monster Vintage clothing store or Monster golf
Quote from: culturejam on July 28, 2013, 07:58:48 PM
There was a case a few years ago in which a woman opened a coffee shop in her hometown. Her last name was actually Starbuck, and she called it "Starbuck's Coffe Shoppe" or something similar. The corporate overlords at Starbucks went after her with a vengeance, and she ended being forced to change the name, even though it was her actual last name.
Yeah, there's no possible way she wasn't trying to cash in on the name and possibly banking on some confusion. That was just stupid.
It doesn't bother me that last names aren't protected when it's the same industry. It does bother me when someone goes outside of their industry to protect their name. They should be content to piss in their own toilet.
How about "F@#KITITSALLTOOHARD-FX" ;)
Quote from: hoodoo on July 29, 2013, 12:30:14 AM
How about "F@#KITITSALLTOOHARD-FX" ;)
Oooh, I like that.
How about 4FXSAKE? (it's mine! stay back!)
Quote from: BuGG on July 29, 2013, 01:09:59 AM
How about 4FXSAKE? (it's mine! stay back!)
I dare you to try putting that on your license plate.
Quote from: RobA on July 28, 2013, 08:33:31 PM
Well, the Pink Fractals name might be considered off limits now :D.
Did you happen to wander over to YouTube and look at the guys other videos? Specifically, this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HonyQqVXg_o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HonyQqVXg_o)
Argh! I want more! Is there a fan-club?
Sorry for the OT part folks...
*************** Chëërs
There a people inventing and registering new words no dictionary in any language or registration office in any country knows making millions selling them to the big players. These often are the beginning of one word back to back with the end of another. Twingo.
Quote from: ThePastRecedes on July 27, 2013, 11:24:56 PMHow do you guys go around thinking of original names?
I want to think of a name that will be original to me, like a brand lets say. Any thing I think of that can be used is usually taken. Not necessarily by a pedal company but somebody on the internet.
I refuse to believe that Knob Goblin exists as a company name :)
Quote from: juansolo on July 29, 2013, 05:45:27 PM
Quote from: ThePastRecedes on July 27, 2013, 11:24:56 PMHow do you guys go around thinking of original names?
I want to think of a name that will be original to me, like a brand lets say. Any thing I think of that can be used is usually taken. Not necessarily by a pedal company but somebody on the internet.
I refuse to believe that Knob Goblin exists as a company name :)
http://www.knobgoblin.net/aboutus.asp
That's got to be a link to a house of ill repute....
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Haha, I have no idea what they sell, but they seem to own the trademark.
Quote from: kothoma on July 29, 2013, 06:29:40 PM
Haha, I have no idea what they sell, but they seem to own the trademark.
I'm afraid to go to the website!
Quote from: jimilee on July 29, 2013, 06:37:46 PM
Quote from: kothoma on July 29, 2013, 06:29:40 PM
Haha, I have no idea what they sell, but they seem to own the trademark.
I'm afraid to go to the website!
Would be at your own peril...
Quote from: kothoma on July 29, 2013, 06:29:40 PM
Haha, I have no idea what they sell, but they seem to own the trademark.
Knobs, obv.
Jon beat me to it...
Paul
Quote from: midwayfair on July 29, 2013, 06:52:02 PM
Quote from: kothoma on July 29, 2013, 06:29:40 PM
Haha, I have no idea what they sell, but they seem to own the trademark.
Knobs, obv.
So you think they would fit on pots? ;)
Quote from: kothoma on July 29, 2013, 05:54:15 PM
Quote from: juansolo on July 29, 2013, 05:45:27 PM
Quote from: ThePastRecedes on July 27, 2013, 11:24:56 PMHow do you guys go around thinking of original names?
I want to think of a name that will be original to me, like a brand lets say. Any thing I think of that can be used is usually taken. Not necessarily by a pedal company but somebody on the internet.
I refuse to believe that Knob Goblin exists as a company name :)
http://www.knobgoblin.net/aboutus.asp
You may have a point! :o
Thanks you guys have been great! Even the funny bits were great! Much more helpful than other forums I posted this question on... they all seemed to recommend calling my pedals "penis".....
Anyway... One of the names I that I have been considering is Lighthouse Audio. It seems to be pretty safe to use but if anybody can take the time to do a google search it would be much appreciated! I found a few things but no big companies. I should be good to go right?
Looks like there's no quick google hit for a pedal or pedal company with Lighthouse Audio. There was a lot of hits for a song by Audio Adrenaline, and a small time New Zealand Band is called Lighthouse Audio.
Jacob
Lighthouseaudio.com is taken, but it appears somebody is sitting on the domain, not using it.
Relevant to this discussion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_vs._MikeRoweSoft
Because there is someone in the world who might interpret hearing Microsoft.com as MikeRoweSoft.com, when they go on the web. Thereby robbing bill gates of one potential windows customer.
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I thought it was Steve Jobs who runs Microrowesoft?
Jacob