madbeanpedals::forum

I read this article this morning, and it reminded me of my own rants about both musical employment and about selling pedals (which I do).

Why is it that people want/expect free things in our society, which is very commercialized and materialistic in nature? I constantly get the 'send me a free pedal, I'll do a demo' emails, and I'm quite tired of them. The quote in that article that stuck out to me was, "I'm tired of the [expletive] idea that exposure is it's own reward."

This doesn't just carry over into pedal building, it rings true for musicians who are constantly asked to play for what works out to be a few bucks an hour, or worse, for free. I remember getting a request from a place 10 hours away to come play at their weekend festival thing (back when I was still touring), and I asked what they were paying. "Uh... hadn't really thought about that," they answered. I politely asked if they understood what it would cost me to come. "Oh, I guess we can get you some gas when you're here." Again, I asked about accomodations, food expenses, and if there was any money for actually doing the 45-60 minute set. "Well, you can set up a table to sell merch or whatever." I don't sell merch, and we all know how many CDs actually sell at shows like that...

Anyway. It's always refreshing to get a gig like I did last month. I played at a local art gallery when they had an opening, some ambient soundscape stuff. Atmosphere creation you could call it. Anyway, they offered $50 for hour long set, so I took it. They asked me to stick around and play an extra half hour after a bit of a break (they liked what I was doing), and I say ok. Guy cuts the check at the end of the afternoon, it's for $75. Says he hopes to have me out again.

Any thoughts you guys have on these issues? I know Jon's talked about this some, but it's always an interesting discussion. I'd love to hear ideas on how to combat the issue without being combative, know what I mean?

Jacob

Hey Jacob!
I think that happens a lot for art work related! When i was younger i dis some gigs just for the free bar and some food! But yeah, it was for the fun of playing! I think most people think that musicians for example are having fun and therefore can pay little or no money for a gig! What about football/ baseball players?Loads of money involved!!
Another problem migjt be that there are lots of offers in this business! They say: if u dont want, another will accept!
Some musicians are also part of the problem accepting this little payment and reducing the market value!
Im not sure how to end this! Ive seen fantastic musicians that need to give lessons, write jingles, gigs etc, in order to cover their rents!
I dint know what the " musician's associations' do! It should be a threshold of how much per hour an employer should pay! Morevoer, a better regulamention and control!
This discussion will go further.....
Cheers mate

I agree with Gledison with regard to art - I don't think we as a culture (I am speaking of the US) value art like we did as recently as 30 years ago.  And of course we all know that since the proliferation of the internet, music is free.   :o

Also, musicians have to compete with the low cost of DJs.  In fact, several outstanding guitarists I know get far more work as DJs than as guitarists.  Very few weddings I go to have live bands any more.

I'm pretty sure if I actually did the math, I've lost money on every gig I've played, but I don't cause that takes the fun out of it.  Carvin had a meme up on their FB page which summed it up for a long time that (summarized) said "Why do you think it's a good deal for me to have 12 hours of band practice to learn the set you want me to play, spend a day setting up and tearing down, and get to split $200 between the band, the sound man, gas and food?"

I've always refused to play for free (with the exception of church stuff, that was ministry, but you can burn out on that real fast when it starts taking up three nights a week plus Sunday), unless it was completely no frills (i.e. acoustic set, me and the singer, three songs, some kind of visibility, usually a charity event or some kind of telethon).  Generally I go in to discussions on gig cost with what amounts to a rate sheet, itemizing off fixed costs like sound guy, equipment, gas, food, plus what the band needs to play.  It results in less gigs, and generally I still give on a few soft items, but at least you're coming away with something.  Once had a guy come out of the crowd after a set, loved the music, wanted us to be the house band on a Holy Land trip,  for no money and we'd have to foot all the travel expenses.  Um, no, pass.

But, there are lots of people who will play for beer or less, and as such, drag down the overall value of the artform for everyone else.  But it's like that in any industry, and regulating it will never work, because someone always won't.

Oh, man is this a thorny subject.

I can explain the ultimate source of the disconnect:
Artists will create whether they're paid to or not.


On the buying end: Some people are just insensitive and don't consider what other peoples' time is worth. Some don't think that an artist's time, specifically, is worth anything or even consider that it takes time and expertise to perform well*. Some people actually do take advantage (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=104983.msg943738#msg943738). Some people are just ignorant and don't know what services cost.

[*Quick aside on this: Most people assume that artistic talent is innate and have no concept of the amount of work that goes into it: practicing for 12 hours a day, touring, writing, rehearsing, etc. And for very complicated reasons, this view is encouraged even by musicians. It's mythology. end aside.]

On the artist side, everyone's in this for different reasons. Sometimes these reasons overlap, because everyone's different.

For some people, fame is actually their goal. This is the Pop Star. Not that they're less artistic, but that art is their chosen method of achieving celebrity. They will play for free if you can give them an audience. They'll let a manager take advantage if they can give them an audience. They want people to buy them, not necessarily their art.

The far more complicated version of that is those who prefer playing music to any other life. This is the Artist. Money is only important in as much as it lets them continue playing. So gas money to get to the next gig is important. Enough food to keep you from fainting on stage. Buying strings before you buy dinner. I know several people like this. They know they won't become famous, and they won't sell out on their art to increase their revenue. They simply believe so strongly that what they create is important that they are willing to sacrifice everything toward creating it. They will play for free if they have to, and they will play for little to no audience if they have to. They will probably dislike it. They might feel a little dirty about taking guarantee money but they will fret about people not buying albums or downloading songs for free. They want people to buy their art.

Some people see music as a job. This is the business person. We all know people like this. Some gig to make a little bit of money on the side. Some do well enough that it's not just a side job. Some are good enough that they can do it full time. This group never wants to play for free, and is usually VERY resentful of people in the previous two categories playing for free, because they see that as a direct attack on their business model and can't or won't compete in that way. They want people to buy their services.

Then there's Just This Person. The one who can play for free because it's not their job. Doesn't care about money, maybe not even in general. Usually doesn't tour, except maybe for a couple weeks a year. Performing is fun, so there might be a gig or two a month. Not "selling" anything, even if there are recordings on the merch table. If someone pays for the gig, then that's fine, but playing for free is also fine if that's what's convenient. It's somewhere north of casual, has the appearance of being professional on some level, but whatever the motivation is, music is sort of compartmentalized. This person isn't necessarily untalented, either. I'd bet that this category is doubly frustrating for the business person, because not only are they willing to undercut on prices but they don't even have the all-consuming urge for fame or artistic-y-ness that the Pop Star and The Artist have.

(Guess which category(ies) I am!)

Basically, there's no way to "combat" the issue. Decide what you're worth, and don't accept less. Seek out opportunities that present themselves. Educate people if you must (we can't accept X because our costs are Y), politely decline, and be nice to people. It's a big world and while there are always people who will try to take advantage, there are also people who insist on paying. If someone pays but tries to squeeze you, negotiate back. But decide what you're worth as a musician and stick to it.

One last thought: The 20th century was a massive anomaly for artists. Mozart died somewhat poor (not as bad as in Amadeus, but not exactly comfortable, either) despite having the patronage of royalty. Bach was employed by a very wealthy and powerful church and was a celebrity but wasn't even really middle class. Professional musicians were rare, and professional musicians who weren't homeless street performers (essentially talented beggars) were even rarer. Shakespeare was one of the most successful writers in history, immensely famous as a playwrite even in his own time, and also enjoyed the patronage of royalty, but died middle class and probably lower on the ladder than his father. One of the most famous musicians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turlough_O%27Carolan) in Irish history was homeless until he was 50.

The 20th century brought things like copyright law, licensing, and the ability to enforce it as a new form of income, and produced previously unimaginable income for artists of all sorts. The concept of art as a commodity was fairly new ... prior to the 1800s (Charles Dickens and Samuel Clemens were both driving forces in changing this), the way art became someone's profession was usually that it was a leisure time activity for the already-wealthy (or their children) or an artist was spectacular enough that they had the patronage of the wealthy, patronage being outsized payment for labor to ensure an artist's basic needs were taken care of so they could create art for people that couldn't afford to pay them what they should actually cost.

I agree about the possible under-valuation of art, but I think there may also be deeper sociological issues at play. It's a sad economic fact that the rich or well off pay less for basically everything. I think that's what leads to the constant expectation of free or reduced prices in our culture ("swag" is the term that seems to capture it best). So the idea that "exposure is its own reward" is disingenuous at best, even if on the surface it seems to be symptomatic of the proliferation of online culture and social media.

Oh man, sorry for the punditry!  :)  But I think about issues of social injustice and economic inequality often. I haven't sold any of the pedals I've built, and I've never played music live, so I'm not able to speak to this from experience in that way. Hopefully this isn't too much of a derail!

Oops, didn't see Jon's post before I hit "post." You hit the nail on the head about the commoditization or art and artistic-ness.

I agree with lots being said above and many of you that have commented are either professional musicians or builders or both.  I would expect like any service rendered there should be a transaction in place. Buts as a learning builder like myself and a bedroom rockstar, I find that doing stuff free or "the cost of parts" have really helped me to hone my skills and get me to a place where I can be proud to sell my items. I still get excited when friends ask me about modding a pedal or building a pedal "like" this one.. kind of thing. I also do repairs when ever possible simply for the fact of learning. But at some point I will need to start recognizing self worth and charging accordingly.

on a side note. I am a IT Administrator and have been in the computer field for 20 years and I still get the "friends" that call up only when they need something. Its disheartening to know that I am only called upon when something is broke.

Cody

Quote from: midwayfair on November 19, 2013, 06:43:22 PM
I can explain the ultimate source of the disconnect:
Artists will create whether they're paid to or not.

I think this is really the crux of the whole thing. Trying to square up art/performance with most other types of business activities is always going to lead to frustration.

I had a bunch of other stuff typed up, but it would have probably just piss a lot of people off.  ;D

Quote from: culturejam on November 19, 2013, 07:11:37 PM
I had a bunch of other stuff typed up, but it would have probably just piss a lot of people off.  ;D

well now I wanna hear it. I'm always interested in honing my skills at pissing people off. It's, like, my one god-given talent. I often do it accidentally with spectacular results.

Part of it too, and this ties into Jon's post, is what you want to get out of it.  In one of the bands I played in, we had three of the four personality types in the band (two Just This Guy, one Artist, and one "I've got nothing else going for me, but I have a drum set").  It ultimately lead to the demise of the band, as the two Just This Guys had good paying day jobs and as such couldn't/wouldn't go on the road for a month at a time playing lousy clubs like the other two guys wanted to (Canada is a great place to lose money on tour, it's a long freaking drive between cities).  To his credit, the Artist and his Artist wife now has a six album recording contract, is currently the opening act on many nationwide tours, and has far exceeded any of our early 20s rock star aspirations.  However, he also lived in his car for two years.  The drummer is currently playing in some live theatre troop, which, for the life of me, I can't understand without chemical assistance.  Not to say I don't still have huge Artistic aspirations (currently in pre-production for a new project with the other Just This Guy), but our time value thresholds are much different than the other two.

I get a lot of this stuff as well running my small guitar/amp repair shop. Most often it is younger guys calling and asking if I have any "extra" pedals I want to give them, or they want to trade me a first-act, POS guitar in exchange for fixing their amp or fretting a guitar  ::)

Not that I am against bartering and I do it on certain occasions but it really is a true insult to offer someone a turd in exchange for their hard-earned expertise and time. 

Great discussion thus far. I totally agree with many if not all the statements above. However, what I'm really wondering about what we can do about the mentality that exists out there, the pervasive thought that "music/musicians are cheap." The article/blog I read this morning is not the first I've seen in the last month, nor even the second. Some big name, fairly famous speakers/artists/musicians often get asked to work for free when the caterer, lighting guy, and even the sound guy and driver are getting paid, and paid well.

When we have a room full of 'Just This Guy' people who are contributing to a problem, how do we politely begin to raise the bar in the public's mind? Is it a series of blogs? Is it a quiet refusal to sell out? Is there nothing we can do?

I think this %100 applies to the pedal industry. Here I am, trying to create a quality product and offer good customer service, but every time I turn around I see another clone hack selling Klones for $99 including shipping. While I'm amazed at that, I know it's not a sustainable business. But the market bears it, and in a sense, I lose business because of it.

Just the other day someone was posting about 'making and selling BYOC kits.' There are lots of guys doing that, similar things really, and aren't realizing the damage they do to the rest of us that are really trying to make a go of it.

Jacob

I could see how this is more pervasive in music. I was just reading this book "What You Want is in the Limo" that documents the mega-tours of the summer of '73. The basic argument is that, while rock stars in that era for the first time entered the ranks of the elite/super-rich, it was really the music industry and all its peripheral businesses that really started making out like bandits. Could we still be seeing that kind of pattern, and if so, how has it evolved?

Over the summer I re-read the essay "The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction" by Walter Benjamin. It's old but applicable to what we're talking about.

Clearly, when it comes to pedal building specifically, it's going to be really hard to weed out the bottom feeders, if for no other reason, then they either don't have a business model or don't value their time in the least (because let's face it, that's the difference, a run of PCBs from OshPark costs everyone the same, and we mostly source our parts from the same places, so the net materials cost is roughly the same).  A klone vs. klone war will just be a fight to the bottom if all one has is the same as the other.

So, from an outsiders point of view, the easiest way to compete is to make something a little bit different (and make sure the difference is visual).  Using a klone as an example, to put a single knob with a mosfet boost and a footswitch would cost what, $8?  But it looks completely different, is completely different, and could probably be upsold for another $30 (of course, the klone factory wouldn't be far behind to catch up, but you'd establish a new layer of clientele that might come back for more later).  When the copycats catch up, throw in a flipper switch and a diode switch.  Little cost difference, big visual difference, and some hype difference.

Man, Jon's post above is solid and really broke down the categories in a logical way.

From a financial state, I don't know if this is something you can educate people to fix.  As long as there are musicians willing to work for free, there will be promoters seeking them out.  On the other hand, if musicians are exceptional (and can bring in revenue), there will be people willing to pay them.  The toughest road will be for the in-between musicians who are better than the free musicians but aren't distinguishable enough to make themselves more marketable (for whatever reason).

The same sort of holds true for pedal building.  There will always be people who look for the cheapest option available that has a quality level they find acceptable.  For some, that level will be the $100 Klone, for others they may want something that is more expensive because it has better parts, comes from a reputable builder (even if not deserved), or looks more aesthetically pleasing.  You can't really "educate" a consumer that wants the cheapest thing, and you aren't likely to have success convincing somebody who is successfully selling poorly made Klones to increase their pricing to the point that their pedals don't compete well anymore.

The real trick (admittedly difficult) is how to differentiate your product from the myriad of similar products on the market.  The boutique market is getting more and more saturated and separating yourself is getting harder and harder to do.

Damn GermanCdn beat me to a similar post because he types faster and more efficiently.   :-)

I want you folks to think very carefully about what it takes, sociologically and economically, to allow the possibility of a "Just This Guy" -- someone who didn't exist a hundred years ago -- and decide if you think that making $50 on an acoustic gig is worth it.

...

Maybe many of you didn't ever sell your pedals or play your music at "Just This Guy" prices, but this forum would have only the tiniest fraction of members if those conditions didn't exist ... and everyone here has benefited from the hobbyist and booteeker culture through lower component costs, cheap prototyping, and simple things like the availability of 3PDTs. The concepts of free culture are one reason expertise is free and plentiful, and if you've ever benefited from a lengthy description in a forum post or read an article on Geofex, you've benefited from exactly the same attitude that led to the use of words like "bottom feeder" and "damage."

Also, in any discussion of the economics of quality, I think it's worth recalling the mighty Betamax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betamax) and digital tape (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Tape_Format) (interestingly, both developed by Sony). How many of you own(ed) anything in these formats, which were vastly superior technology compared with VHS and cassettes? Digital tape was suppressed by people not wanting to digitize music, and consequently became expensive; instead, the world embraced cassettes, which were cheap but absolute crap and capable of easy duplication. Betamax had better resolution than VHS but was more costly, but they thought they could force better technology to beat Cheap.

This is because

Humans are bad at assessing value.

There are always people willing to pay a premium for Premium, but they are a small fraction of the population.

Okay, Jon. You've convinced me.  ;D


I'm definitely going to have to take issue with the general sentiment I've seen in this thread and many others (on other forums as well), which I will hyperbolically sum up thusly:

If you aren't charging a lot of money for playing music or building pedals, you are a giant asshole who is messing up everything for all the "real" musicians/pedal builders.

I just don't see it that way, and I hope I never do.

Playing music is supposed to be FUN!! Building pedals is supposed to be FUN!! Remember when all this shit was fun??  ;D :'(

People tend to do fun stuff for low or no cost because the enjoyment of doing fun stuff is part of the "payment". If somebody decides to stop being a hobbyist and "go pro" in a market where there are millions of hobbyists/for-fun "competitors", that's the Pro's problem to handle*. Everybody else doesn't have to stop having fun (or operating fly-by-night hack shops that crash and burn) becuase it annoys the Pro. "Don't compete with me because it's annoying" is a weird way to approach it, I think.  But I've seen it over and over at forums like TGP.

*I'm obviously including myself in this, given the immenent launch of Function f(x).

Flame on.

Of course, that is correct, Jon.  There is little doubt about how much all of us gain by the free exchange of knowledge.  I don't measure that gain as a purely financial one.  Sure, some folks will take a small level of knowledge and build poor quality pedals, but the market will likely sort them out.

On a somewhat tangential note, there is an interesting stratification amongst boutique builders as well.  Some of whom embrace communities like this, others that vilify those involved as those who steal their ideas, regardless of whether or not their designs are original in the first place.  Within the DIY community, that stratification seems to exist on some level as well.  In life, we will always have Sneetches.

History has shown that low cost and convenience are usually the final arbiters of success.  VHS was inferior to Betamax, but the record time was significantly longer, which afforded it an advantage.  Super VHS was better as well, but expensive and never adopted on a large scale.

DAT tapes are slightly different as they were buried as much by politics and misguided implantation of SCMS that basically made them a lot less appealing as a recording medium.  Sure they were expensive, but they could've reached mass appeal (which would've lowered prices) if the politics hadn't jammed up the works.

Just to add:

This same argument crops up (har har) on one of the photography forums I frequent. There are a ba-zillion talented hobbyist photos who occasionally do shoots for free or token cash payment. The Pros say anyone doing free/cheap work is devaluing the entire industry and should die in a fire. The hobbyists say "I'm having fun, so what's the big deal?"

Same thing, different genre.

P.s. I say all that, I'll remind everyone, as a guy with a welt on his forehead from the crap he reads on TGP and the gut shots of $200 overdrive.

Fair points guys. I don't know that I agree with everything you've said, but at some point we have to ask the question:

What is our time worth?

Here's a way I think it's wise to look at it. As a musician, I've put enormous hours into practice, writing, collaborating, rehearsing. I've also invested major bucks into gear, equipment, instruments, and even some into lessons, recording time, recording equipment, CD duplication, artwork and liner notes. This doesn't account for the gas, car repairs, hours on the bus, and headaches I've caused my family and neighbors. We all know that we've invested intangibles into our craft.

What gets my goat is when people ask me to then play for them, for free, without considering the above.

If I offer to play for free, or seek out opportunities to play for free or even go out of my way for a friend, that's my choice. I can choose to do so, or I can choose not to. It's part of the investment, and largely, it's the way that my 'art' is recognized. I choose to do it because of various reasons, not the least of which is the fun and pleasure of creativity and quality art (at least in the eyes of those who love me).

However, when someone requests my time, energy and effort for their own benefit, then expects me to do so free of charge, that's a problem. It's the unrealistic expectation that all musicians are always available at little or no cost simply because they like to play for fun. It's not the paycheck, or rather, the lack thereof, it's the attitude that's the problem for me.

Jacob

Quote from: culturejam on November 19, 2013, 09:45:15 PM
If you aren't charging a lot of money for playing music or building pedals, you are a giant asshole who is messing up everything for all the "real" musicians/pedal builders.

I do see this attitude out there, and I may have even participated in propagating it, but I certainly don't feel like I should support this attitude. I simultaneously see the problem that people who say the above are attempting to speak to, and the problem with the way they/we/I seem to be speaking to the problem.

I think there are lame builders out there who in a sense 'ruin' it for those of us (and CJ, you're in that club now too) who are doing things in a more sustainable fashion. I'm not asking people to simply charge a lot of money for pedals because that's what the rest of us are doing, I'm talking about how to combat the culture of 'why aren't you doing it cheap like them?' Our society, specifically the sub-culture of pedal-addicted-gear-hounds has a tremendously small niche, and it's really, really, congested with several talented and innovative, and many more boring, pedal companies. Long and short is - the attitude of the small audience all of us to cater to that is trending towards devaluing certain skills while holding up the BS mystique that's inherently lying to clients.

Anyone remember the Vemarum-gate issue last year? That pedal still sells. Crazy to think of it, but it does. But then, guys talk about buying my pedals and back out because, 'it's gonna lose too much resale value - I may as well buy JHS.'

Dunno wheres I'm going to at this point, so maybe I'm done for now.

Jacob

Jacob, I think that everybody should define the value of their time.  People hit me up from time to time to do a one-off for them and they usually have no idea how much time that I would spend putting something like that together. 

Unfortunately, that often puts me on a divergent path with them.  If it isn't worth my time (or I don't want to do it for my own reasons), I usually decline.  What I don't generally try to do is convince them they should pay more than they are comfortable with.  That is for them to determine.  It's always hardest with me when a friend wants a time-consuming one-off pedal.

With our new company, we are going to have to carefully figure out where things should fit in the market from a pricing perspective.  We will absolutely have to figure out the cost of development, manufacturing and marketing.  The cost of our time will be built into that calculation.  It will be a little bit different in that feedback to is will likely come more from distributors and dealers than from end users, but the market will let us know if our value is in line with what most people think.

Your post actually reminds me a bit of a buddy of mine who is a very talented Linux programmer.  He's well compensated at his day job and, as a hobby, he has contributed his coding skills to some free projects in the past.  People used to approach him all the time and say "you really need to do this (for free of course)."  His response was that he would sometimes do it if the project interested him, but usually would tell them that the beauty of open source programming was that they could pay him to do it or learn how to do it themselves.

EDIT: POST NUMBER 666!  \nnn/ \nnn/

My most popular videos are the fuzz and boost in 10 min videos and the soldering tutorial video.  Infact my top 10 are all "something for nothing" videos.

The funny thing is, I find when I post a video about a pcb or "product" I have for sale, occasionally it is meet with hate.  Perhaps the viewer felt like he was being ripped off?  Perhaps he feels I tricked him into watching a free video about something he would have to pay for?   "giveaway" videos are a perfect example of the opposite. 

Whatever it is i'm posting, i post it with my an element of "Take it or leave it". I think its important to have some faith in your product / skill / art / cheese sandwich and don't get too caught up in this "everything for free" mentality. But on the flipside, investing in skill is also important and usually comes with a 0% margin or even a loss. It's a delicate balance between being strong in your resolve but flexible enough to know when what your doing just isn't working (building pedals for nothing, selling something that no one wants, gigging for free, etc.).  Sometimes If i start becoming too strong headed, I have to remind myself to keep my ears / mind open to what people are telling me.

Anyway, that's my opinion and I'm absolutely sticking to it 100% or until someone tells me I'm wrong then I will update it where necessary.
Paul

While I can agree with much of what you said, I think we need to further discuss the merits of cheese sandwiches.

I think I saw a video the other night, a #hashtag segment from Late night, that was about awesome superpowers people wish they had. One was the "ability to make Grilled Cheese by pressing the ingredients between your hands." I agreed, that would be an epic, amazing, and totally useful superpower.

BUT, then you'd have the problem of people coming up and asking "where's my free grilled cheese sandwich?" You'd inevitably have to start charging for them at some point, and of course you'd get the "I'll give you a free Youtube review in return for a sandwich," and then next thing you know, some other guy is undercutting you with sandwiches made on a grill for cheap...

Jacob

Quote from: jkokura on November 19, 2013, 10:45:15 PM
I'm talking about how to combat the culture of 'why aren't you doing it cheap like them?'

I don't know that there is an easy way to fix this. There are always going to be Danelectro and Moer and Joyo type companies making stuff cheaper than you/I can, there will always be fly-by-night hacks with poor business plans and low labor rates, and there will always be snake-oil salesmen selling stuff for way more money than we can get for our stuff. The only choices you/I have are to innovate/differentiate and keep on going or close up shop.

So basically, the people who are educated enough to tell the cheap shit from the over-hyped unicorn dust from the legit products....well, they already build pedals.  ;D

^ nicely put culturejam, the reason we are all here :D

Quote from: culturejam on November 20, 2013, 02:31:25 AM
there will always be fly-by-night hacks with poor business plans and low labor rates,

Why do I get dragged into this...

All right, now that I've finished my $9 grilled cheese sandwich from Chachi's (seriously, what's the world coming to when fast food grilled cheese is $9, and I don't even like grilled cheese sandwiches, pretty sure that jmk guy had some backwards masking in his post that made me eat a grilled cheese sandwich), back to the point of the matter.

The question - how do you put a $ value on your time.  For me it's simple.  I sell my time to my employer at X amount of dollars, and do so for between 50 and 80 hours a week, depending on how insane the workload is or how big a machine I have to have built.  Generally, said job takes me away from my home and my wife for an average of four months a year, and as such, any and all time I spend not at work is valued at at least X amount of dollars.  Does that price me out of the range of doing pedal work/guitar repair for others?  In almost every cases, yes, and for me that's OK because it's fun for when I do it myself, and I'm pretty sure it would become less fun if it became a job, as most jobs do, that is their nature.

I'm too old to be current but this was a similar complaint in the 80's when live music started to disappear.  The only way to make a buck in Canada was to leave, so that's what the band I played for did and spent 6 years hashing it out on the road for 50 weeks a year in the States.  Nice hotel and club circuit gigs that lasted a month at a pop but a deadly mixture of making "just" enough money and having too many vices within easy reach.  For anyone that could avoid those pitfalls it was perfect.  I burned out on playing so bad that I put away all my gear and got a "real" job and didn't touch it for about 16 years.  I started playing again when asked to play at my church and probably average about 8 hours a week rehearsing and performing.  It's a rotating line up but for the most part is one of the better bands I've been in and I get way more satisfaction out of those 8 hours than pretty much anything else I do.

It's a steep commitment given that there are no percs but it beats the crap out of playing bars for whatever it pays.  I should mention that I also run sound for a killer band from time to time, and while I'd make more money on a paper route, it does give me a bit of artistic freedom.  Other than knowing the tunes inside and out to hit solos and get the effects right it's a fairly low pressure situation other than dealing with the nimrods that "know" more than you do (in the audience).  The up-side is that the band knows I have it covered and 95% of the audience thinks the band sounds crazy good.  The downside is that I don't get to play solos and still have to deal with the other 5%  :-\

I would add that these topics of the value of work, and of its devaluation, are what Marx's reasoning is about. Unions (and chambers of commerce) get a lot of criticism these days partly because the problems of work, valuation, and livelihood do not have easy answers. The simple answers, like medieval patronage or payola, left out large categories of people in order to work at all.

This is quite interesting in more than one way. Here's my two cents:

The below should be true for musicians, pedal geeks and other people doing things that have to do with art or knowledge.

On one side there are the hobbyists that have fun doing what they do and sometimes jump on the occasion to earn little money for having fun offering their service to others, just from time to time.

Then there are the semi professionals who know what they invested to get where they are and they now almost could make a living from what they love to do. Those are the ones who really need to think about value and false friends. This is something that needs to stabilize over time as it will turn one way or the other (back to hobbyist or on to profession)

And then there are professionals of every color. Usually they already have made their mind and just dont have time to do things for free. And they are pretty clear about that.
But especially those who do not have time - and that is the interesting point - sometimes will do things for free to support others or enjoy themselves. And this is something that cannot be valued high enough.

Quote from: GermanCdn on November 19, 2013, 06:36:36 PMwith the exception of church stuff, that was ministry

Playing Ministry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lspjLG9nHXk) at a church. That's pretty hardcore dude!

;)

I used to be an aspiring comic creator. There was a trend in the newspapers here a few years back to have a competitions for the comic sections of the paper. At the end somebody would 'get the job', but up to that point they had months of free content from people their submissions. All the pro comic people I know where very angry about that...Still, most of them sent in their submissions anyway. We hate the system, but still get fooled by the promise of something bigger...which is why it works.

Whenever I do work for a fee (as infrequent as that is) and I run into someone that asks me why I charge what I do OR complains that they can get something for less I tell them....

" I am sure someone could probably do YOUR job for less money too!"  ::)

I believe it all comes down to the value of time. We can all build a TS clone for a few dollars BUT.... it is the TIME put into it that drives us to charge what we charge. I personally do not ask for much when doing work. Don't get me wrong... I value my time and I put a price on it BUT, I do not go overboard like some "boutique" builder do. Also, people do not consider that we often tailor the build for THEIR sound. Anyone can go out and get a DS-1 off the shelf but.... When I build a pedal, I ask what the customer is looking for in their sound and tailor it to them. You can't get that from a big box store.

The value of one's time is indeed a rich topic for discussion.

Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on November 20, 2013, 12:57:37 PMI believe it all comes down to the value of time. We can all build a TS clone for a few dollars BUT.... it is the TIME put into it that drives us to charge what we charge.

It's really hard, though, to calculate how much time goes into a given product. You can easily time yourself for how long it takes to build a pedal. You can even time yourself on drawing the schematic and layout, and even probably run a clock for how long you spent tweaking on the breadboard. You can probably come up with an average for how long it takes to order parts. But how far can you go? How much of your time can you reasonably expect to bill to your potentional customers? Do they owe you for the time you spent learning electronics? How about the hours you spent struggling against the super-unituitive Eagle CAD user interface? How about all the time you spent combing through internet forums looking for inspiration or reading up on constant-current biasing? At what point does the billing stop? How do your spread that calculation over hundreds or thousands of units of a product?

I think you have to draw the line somewhere, but I've seen musicians suggest that their pricing includes (or should include) the years of lessons/practice that led up to them being good enough to play a gig. That's not something I would have ever considering in pricing, but then again I'm not rich, so maybe I'm just naive.  ;D

Good points. I suppose you could figure in breadboard time, Eagle learning, etc. into an R&D or development cost. However, I do not think that a musician's time spent "learning his/her craft" is an acceptable charge. Your knowledge as a musician is why you were hired.... not why you are charging what you want.

A 14 y/o kid could be a phenom on the guitar and draw in 1,000 people into an event. On the other hand... a 40 y/o could have spent their entire adult life honing their craft but only draw in 500 people. Who gets paid more?

Im totally new on this hobby/addiction. Probably if someone one day would be interested in one of my pedals, depending on the reason/person, i would give for free or for the parts price.
Considering that the we are talking about the time spending on it, My pedals would be the most expensive of them
ehehhe! Sorry guys, just to break a bit the serious conversation!
cheers