madbeanpedals::forum

My first post for tech help...  :'(  

Ok, I've got a fully functioning aquaboy up and running.

Info on the build
Double Delay board
BBD's v3205 's
No other modifications...yet  ;)
Adjusted bias trims and clock by ear.
Mix, delay time (about 550ms max), and repeats all function properly

Problem
I believe I'm exceeding the headroom on the v3205's as the repeats are distorting (not clock noise).

EDIT: Solution
I'll save you from reading through the rest of this rubbish...  unless you want to  ;) http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=1553.0

Troubleshooting done so far
Pin 8 (VGG) on both v3205's has a voltage of 6.5 (operating range of bbd is 4-8)
With the repeats set to one repeat, signal probe shows increased volume level into pin 7 (as expected), then the repeat out of pin 3 and 4 has distortion.

I tried changing the value of r15 per a suggestion in a previous post.  I don't really see how this would help but it was worth a try.  No change.

It seems like the posts with this same problem on FSB and here were all with the v3205 bbd's with the double delay mod.  (I guess it must make the headroom problem more noticeable with the two chips)

I really couldn't find any more info on solutions to this problem only that others have had it.  I guess I could decrease the value for R19 to increase the input voltage closer to 8v, but I don't think that will increase the headroom enough.

So my question is: what's the best way to decrease the input volume to pin 7.  Change to a lower hfe transistor?  Change a resistor somewhere?

I read a gear page post on the headroom between different bbd's and the guy from Malekko said that the v3205's require a much more "balanced" circuit to have nice clean repeats.  They use it in the 616.

Thanks to anyone who read this whole post, I know it's long, but I'm not only trying to help myself but possibly others in the future.

josh

Admittedly, I have not done a dual delay v3205, so I haven't had to deal with this problem.

When you swapped R15, what value did you use?

The goal here is to bleed a little more signal to ground, so picking a low value for R15 will enable this to happen. A socket there and some experimentation might yield more positive results.

An increase in the Bias pot to 50k may further help this.

To raise the headroom, you could instead substitute a 7v or 8v regulator. I think I might have a 7v one. Or, you could use an 8.2v Zener in place of R19 which might be just enough to get it to operate in the correct range. I have some of those as well. I'd be happy to send the regulator and zener along to you.

Changing the preceding transistor will not have any noticeable effect since it's used as a buffer to make up signal lost from the filtering network.

I used a 100kB pot to tweek the r15 spot.  I should have clarified.  It's still subbed in, so I may try tweeking it some more.   I'm gonna sleep on it for now...  Maybe I'll dream up something  ;D  I'll post any progress.  Thanks for offering to send those parts!  Hold on for now, I'm digging through some stuff on the v3205 scattered through the net.  I also want to dig a little more with the signal probe first.

josh

r15 is the key as i recall. i put 33k or 39k and it was alot better but not perfect. you need to rebias it after u change r15.
i didn't build or heard 3005 version but cool audio one is not working as it should. it still needs some work to clean those repeats. i build 2 and few friends bulit 4 or 5 and everyone have same problem - DISTORTED REPEATS.

i had just 1 bbd, not 2 as you do.

Thanks slash!  I'll have to put my potentiometer around there and recalibrate.  It's worth a try.  I've also heard the output is "hotter" on the v3205's.  The distortion is not to bad with one repeat so I'm wondering if the repeats are distorting through the feedback loop, maybe when it passes through Q2.  I'll have to check this out when I get home today with a signal probe.

I really wanted to get some mn3005's but I was afraid of putting up the cash only to get fakes...  I wouldn't mind spending the money if I knew they were the real deal.  This is frustrating   :-\  I'm a delay junky and I really need to get this right.  I've got a fair share of analog bbd's, tape echo's (ep-4, re-201), and digital delays, so I've got a pretty good idea how much "grit" there should be and I'm not even close to acceptable at this point.

I've been looking for schematics of delays that use the v3205 like the 616 malekko with no luck.  I'm sure the aqua puss reissue had some tweaks done to accommodate the v3205 but there is no schematic out there for the reissue version either.

I'm gonna get this right one way or another.  This is such a great project and the board layout is incredible Bean!

Josh

no problem! if you find any improvements be sure to share with us :D
good luck ;)

Ok, here's where I'm at and what I've discovered to this point.

I switched to probing with a solid state amp instead of possibly overdriving the preamp tubes on my normal practice amp.

So with the feedback off (I pulled out R31 to eliminate any feedback, I socketed it when building to adjust the oscillation point)  I signal probed everything up to the v3205's, it was a nice boosted clean signal going into the v3205's, going out of the v3205's the initial input signal is distorting.  It sounds like it's running through a dirt pedal when I probe the output on the v3205.

While probing the output of the v3205 i started adjusting the 100kB pot I placed in the r15 spot.  What I found is I can eliminate about half of the distortion but not all of it.  When you turn the pot past this to less resistance it makes some warbling unbearable noise which ironically isn't distorted  :D

So long story short I feel I need to lower the input signal that's riding into the v3205's.  Where and how can I do this?

Thanks,

Josh

Hmmmm... okay. How about a voltage divider right a pin7 of IC3? You could pull C15, then put it back in with a 10k in series after the positive side. Then at pin7, you put another 10k to ground. This will cut the signal in half feeding into the BBD.

Probably the easiest way to go about this is to pull C15 and put in two temporary wires (or a socket) the test the voltage diver out on the breadboard.

Thanks for the quick reply.  I'll check that out and report back tomorrow.

I unsoldered C15 and inserted some leads connected to a breadboard for reinserting c15 and forming a voltage divider using two 10k resistors.

(Side note: the fabbed boards are much harder to unsolder than etched boards.  The solder really sucks down in those holes and forms a pretty bulletproof setup which is great until you need to get out the component.  ;D )

It definitely cut down the signal to pin 7 of the v3205, but I think to much.  I was unable to bias the chip to get anything out the pin 3 output.  I only got squealing.

I'm going to try using a 10kB potentiometer as a variable voltage divider tonight to have a little more flexibility with the input signal strength.

Someone on one of the forums said the sweet spot for the v3205 is at 5v?  I might try changing the value of r19 as well to see what happens at 5v and at 8v.  Right now I'm sitting around 6.4v.

At this point I'm pretty much at the max of what little knowledge I've got with this stuff, we'll see what happens.

josh

You can alter the amount of voltage divide by offsetting the two values...which is pretty much what you will get with a trimpot.

The v3205 claims a wide range of operating voltages (4-8v) but I have my doubts about this. I got really good results at about 7v.

Don't give up! We'll get it there.

I've been making some good use of my "extended lunch break"  ;)

I may be on to something here...

I found that the one successful dual delay with the v3205's on fsb had used a different clock generator. 

So I looked at the V3102 data sheet (what I used) http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.coolaudio.com/docs/datasheet/V3102_DATASHEET.pdf&chrome=true

This data sheet says "Direct driving capability of up to 4096-stage BBD's" well I've got 2 4096-stage BBD's

The MN3101 clock driver data sheet says it is able to drive two MN3005's (equivalent to 8192 stages)
No problems I saw were ever reported with the DD mod not working for the mn3005's either and they used the mn3101.

I also found this from nelson on FSB:

Quote from: reverofratiug on March 20, 2008, 09:23:17 PM

I´d like to know if there´s any other way to reduce, or even stop the distortion on the coolaudio´s V3205. Am I doing something wrong?

And on more question. if is possible to use two 3205 on the AD3208 how can one 3102 chip ("Direct driving capability of up to 4096-stage BBD") drive two 3205 (4096-stages each)Huh

Nelson Replied:

The capacitance of the clock input of the 3205 filters and rounds off the clocking signal of the 3102. The way to avoid this is to buffer the clock signal with a CD4049, this will deliver a nice square clocking signal and reduce distortion. Also allowing you to drive more than 4096 stages with a single clock.

Take a look at the EHX Echoflanger schematic for an example of this.


This could explain why the single version of the v3205 is fine but problems arise with the double delay mods using the v3102 clock driver.

The problem may not be with the input signal level after all.  Where should I go from here?  Ive got a cd4049ube in stock but I don't know how to go about buffering the clock signal.  Or is there a suitable clock driver I can substitute in place of the V3102 that will drive both BBD's.

whew...I think that's all for now... :)

Josh

excellent progress! i'm anxiously waiting this to resolve :) i have prepared ddt boards but didn't use them because of annoying distortion. maybe it won't be just waisted time money after all ;D

I've been digging deep through old forum posts, strange and unusual places on the internet, and I've got piles of printed of schematics scattered through the house.  Hopefully we can figure this out.

Josh

i would gladly help but i don't have skill's, i'm just guitar player. i could verify/test progress

I'm in the same boat here, there is more headroom in a pt2399 echo base I've made which is running on 5v. I have 2 more of these to make with the ddt boards so appreciate your research efforts.

Perhaps interestingly, I've read the mpsa18 is quite a high gain transistor and have read suggestions of peeps using (mostly reported in making wah pedals sound more vintage) bc109c and bc550 which have lower hfe? values resulting in a softer and perhaps noisier but less edgy sound. Grain of salt though because the circuit may not accept different values, and so may or may not help. I will know in a couple of weeks, Brian maybe know. I'm going to try an OPA2134 in one of these too

Andy

If I remember right Andy, I think you had some posts with the double delay distortion issue.  Were you able to clean up the repeats at all?  I'm thinking we may have two issues here, one being the headroom issue.  The other being the current clock driver being unable to support the two v3205's BBD's.  I'm unsure of where to go from here so hopefully Brian will have some good insight based on my info in the previous post.  The best solution would if there was another clock driver we could use,  but I bet in any case we're going to have to add a clock driver or a clock driver buffer (I don't know if that's the right term or not  :D )  I wish I had an oscilloscope, because I think that would really help with checking out the clock driver issue.  But then again, I'd have to learn how to use it first  ;) .

Josh

Yes, 2 out of 3 that I've made, that seem to work properly (as good as can be), are very dirty but its not a bad sounding dirt, the filters take the harshness off nicely. Its a different league compared to the AD150 I have (300ms MN3005 running on 18volts) which is almost impossible to overdrive.

The most recent one I've made isn't quite working properly, not sure at all about it... is very dark and overdriven, sounds like an overdrive pedal, which in the right hands can sound pretty cool, but its not subtle. Still a work in progress that one!

Andy, what clock did you use for the v3205 double delay builds?

Madbean, is there any reason we couldn't run the mn3101 clock for the v3205's?

Josh

Check the datasheets. They'll tell you.

Jacob

I did already... I'm up to my ears in data sheets.

I think the power supply polarity should work but the cool audio data sheet on the v3102 is very vague and I'm not real clear on the clocks and what requirements need met for the BBD's.  From what I can tell I think it should work, but I'm at the end of my current understanding Jacob.  I don't really want to tie Brian down with this and I've been doing a lot of leg work, but I'd like to find a solution...

Josh

They're expensive chips I know. I don't want you to fry them, but you could try it. I think it could work, and I imagine the worst being that it just doesn't work.

Jacob

Quote from: jkokura on March 02, 2011, 07:56:46 PM
They're expensive chips I know. I don't want you to fry them, but you could try it. I think it could work, and I imagine the worst being that it just doesn't work.

Jacob

Yeah, it's not like their mn3005's.  The v3205's are easy to replace.  It's probably worth a try, but I'll have to find some other stuff to order as well or I'll get charged 5 bucks for shipping a tiny part.

The other option would be to buffer the clock outputs going to the double delay board, which would be easily accessible, but I have no idea on how to buffer a clock signal.  Would it be that much different than a standard buffer?  From what I gather the clock input pins on each BBD have input capacitance creating a "loading effect". When the total capacitance is summed between the two v3205's, the result is that it corrupts the clock pulses. I guess the input capacitance is like a fixed lowpass filter on the clock pulse. As long as the clock stays well below the frequency of that filter, the clock is received exactly as sent. Round off those rising and falling edges with the additional input capacitance, and the switching action within the BBD becomes less sharp, resulting in a serious decline in audio quality.  The v3102 could work if it's not "loaded down" I guess..

Josh

Hey Josh, I have no idea if this clock buffer would help you out or not, but you can check out the data sheet...it looks to me like a standard buffer though

http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LMH2180.pdf

Kaleb

"One buffered 4047 drives 4 x MN 3005 in my Yamaha E1010"

You must have read this thread?

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=87831.0

My guess is if we were using 2 3005's and an mn3102, it would sound much cleaner.

"The Yamaha E1010 delay which uses 4 x MN3005, has a low pass filter after each bbd, and each bbd has it's own bias trim. The clock to each bbd is also buffered by it's own TC4049, wired as 2 x 3 inverters in parallel."

It seems both 4047 and 4049 have been used as clock chips

http://www.4shared.com/file/30199724/5425cbd6/1010a.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/30199692/5f70dd1f/1010b.html

I've used v3102 (wouldn't know how or where to use anything else....)

Josh did you try a voltage regulator at R19?

this thread too

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=68582.0

sorry if you've been there already..

Thanks for sharing guys.  I've been looking into the 4049 as a buffer, so thanks for the info  :)  That was the first I saw of the yamaha with the 3005's.  Pretty cool!

I've just got to figure out the best way to try this without to much hassle.  My Double Dly add on board is sitting right above the aquaboy board soldered with old resistor leads and was meant to be pretty permanent (or so I thought).  I may just cut the clock leads there and tie into a breadboarded 4049ube.  I think this may even give a better clock signal than subbing in a mn3101 and cheaper too.  ;)  If it works I'll have to figure out a more permanent arrangement...  My build was pristine too, now it has some battle scars  ;D  O well...

I have not adjusted the voltage to the v3205's yet.  I think the major problem is with the clock driver right now and I want to sort that out first.  If that gets straightened, I'll move on to the operating voltage and input signal strength.  I'm not sure how much I'll get done tonight, if anything, but I'll keep working on it!

Josh

I had more time than I thought. ;D  PROGRESS MADE!!!  I've got a delay than has almost passable repeats now.  Pretty close to my carbon copy.  Not as clean as I'm aiming for yet, but I'm getting there.

I added in a CD4049UBE between the v3102 clock drivers CP1, CP2 outputs and the v3205's CP1,CP2 inputs.

The voltage to the 4049 is about 6.2v and I'm gonna take it to 5v. (I just used some resistors at hand for a quick voltage divider temporarily)  The clock signal does not pass right running at 9v.

The buffer mod is also increasing the available delay time.

I'm gonna start tweaking the v3201's input voltage and the input signal, but that's gonna happen in the next day or so.

Here's a pic of my mess.  The pots are just mounted in one of those cheap radio shack cases to help for testing.  I'm glad I opted for the 1590BB for my enclosure size.

Josh

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5013/5493596306_564ebe8515.jpg)

Awesome work man! This is great news

What do you think is the best way to implement this into the 'box'? A portion of proto-board?

I'm about to order some parts so may as well 2 birds... (actually probably about 6)

Andy, don't get to exited yet.  Upon some "playing" after my post last night, I'm still noticing more of the distortion than I'd like.  The 4049 buffer did clean it up a little but not as much as I thought.

There are a couple things I don't know about the buffer.  I'm not really sure if the voltage applied to it effects the clock frequency if at all.  Like I said before, it didn't work when I was supplying 9v, but some of the examples I've seen it used were giving it 15v?  That was for a different bbd though.  If I had access to an oscilloscope I'd be able to see the clock signal.  So I'm just gonna run it at 5v and call it good I guess.

The other thing is the load impedance on the outputs of the v3205 bbd's.  I don't know enough about it to know if it is optimal for the two v3205's...

I tried adding a voltage divider to cut the signal again at c15.  I found once again that I was able to cut the signal but then I don't get any delay (calibration was tried after I did the voltage divider FWIW)

I then removed the voltage divider and just adjusted the pot I've got in for r15.  I can get a pretty good delay with little distortion that way, but I also loose all the higher frequencies to ground...

I can also get  cleaner delays turning down the guitar, which is obvious.  But when I "dig" in it responds with the "break up" like an overdrive.

Maybe changing out the Q2 mpsa18 to something lower gain would help?

Uhh, just when I thought I was getting somewhere too.  If anyone's got any suggestions feel free to share. ;D

Josh

No progress made...

I did get the voltage divider to work lowering the signal into the bbd.  No change in the distortion.  So I put it back together stock eliminating the 4049 buffer and I didn't notice that it was any worse at distorting.  So then I pulled Q2, socketed it, and subbed in some lower gain npn's.  Even with the reduced signal into the bbd's they were still distorting.  Each time a change was made in all the above a new calibration was done by the way and only one change was done at a time.  I'm wondering if switching out to multiple turn trim pots would help me dial this in more. (at least for the bias).  Maybe the bias range with two of these is so narrow that it's virtually impossible to find the sweet spot with little dirt.   ???

I did get an oscilloscope for FREE, but it's missing the trace.  So I'll probably working on that instead for a while so I can get a better look on what's going in with this build.  It's an old tektronix 7904 about 30 years old.  I guess they were $28k back in the day.  Ouch!  It's a beast.  Big and full of mojo...

Josh

Josh,

Check the Byoc video on how to set the bias and cancel of the bbd's. It is very precise and should be done with a scope or audio probe on the output pin of the bbd's. For each separately. If i read your posts then I keep having the idea that that might not be done right.

I read that you read my post on r15. If changing r15 deos not do anything then there is something wrong as it has a huge influence on the signal going in the bbd's.
I have build this with two v3205's and it is working really well with quite a long delay time.

Best, Marc

Thanks Marc,

That's how I've been calibrating from the start of this (actually before this project).  I use an audio probe.  I'm pretty good on dialing the old analog stuff like my old tape delays and other analog delays.  These v3205's are just so much more finicky with everything.

I've been fooling around with some stuff like the voltage to the bbd's etc along with adding in a resistor right after c15 which forms a voltage divider with r15 to the bbd input.  I also added in the 4049 buffer again.

I am really, really, close now with this arrangement.

I'll keep everyone posted.

Josh

Well in that case my suggestions were maybe not necessary. It just is strange that mine turned out really well ( and i am very speciic with my sound stuff. I use all my pedals in my work as a recording and touring guitarist) and yours just keeps not working well enough. Hope you get it sorted out. i will keep following this.

Best, marc

I'm building up a dual delay too to see if I get the same result. Hopefully I will be able to add something useful to the discussion.

Quote from: madbean on March 05, 2011, 08:00:29 PM
I'm building up a dual delay too to see if I get the same result. Hopefully I will be able to add something useful to the discussion.

Good, because I'm really pretty frustrated at this point.  I just packed my rats nest up for now before I did something stupid.  There's no point in working on it with my current mindset.  Um...just ask one of my old computers  ::)

I upped my voltage to the bbd's to 8v and cut the input signal with an additional 100k resistor ( I think, I tried a bunch) right after c15 forming a voltage divider with r15.  This worked but it also cut the delay signal to much.  I had to put a jumper in place of the resistor at r31 so I could get more than 2 or 3 repeats, but the repeats are just to far back in the mix.  The delay loop needs boosted somewhere to compensate.

In my findings anyways..I couldn't calibrate the 2nd bbd to get an output signal without using the 4049 clock driver buffer when I decreased the input signal.  I had to use the buffer to get any delay.

O well, I feel pretty defeated at this point.  I'm just glad this one was for me and not a friend.

Josh

I haven't wired up the DD board yet, but I at least verified my new build with a single v3205.

Couple more notes on the single v3205 version:
A 5v regulator is not a good choice for feeding the BBD. The headroom is just too low. I was able to clean it up some by using a 470k on R15, but not much.

Using a 1k5 resistor for R19, as suggested in the build doc, really works well. Hitting the BBD at about 7.5 - 7.7v gives it plenty of headroom. I was able to dial in the clock and bias easily by ear to obtain acceptable delay times with no clock noise. I did leave in the 470k on R15.

At 7.7v, the 22k feedback resistor is a little low. Oscillation occurred at just over halfway on the Feedback pot.I haven't subbed that yet, but something higher like 33k or 47k should do it. At 5v on the BBD, the 22k did work better.

Lastly, using the modulation board seems to bring out a lot more clock noise at high speed and depth settings. I was able to dial this out by setting the clock trimmer back a bit.


Anyway, I'll give my report on the dual thing soon.

Okey doke, my experimentation is done and the results are pretty good.

I got the best results by doing the following (BTW all this was done by ear---no scope):

Run the circuit at 12v regulated. While the Clock is rated for up to 12v max, the Compander indicated 8v max, according to the datasheet. However, I had no issues running the board at 12v, so I suspect there is some give there.

The reason for running it at 12v is the expanded headroom helps a lot with the dual delay set-up. In fact, it looks like running the clock at a higher voltage allows you to cook the BBD a little to get that extra headroom needed to offset the noisey dual delay setup. I found that I could easily run the BBD at 9v with very acceptable results.

First off, it's going to be easiest if you first test your build as a single delay and bias it up as best you can. Having the Clock and Bias trimmers set on the main board first for a 300ms delay makes adjusting the Bias on the daughter board way easier. Once I plugged my dual delay board into the socket, it required minimal adjustment to the second bias trimmer to get the optimal delay. Adjusting the second cancel trimmer allowed me to dial out a little noise, as well.

So, for the power supply, I used a Road Rage board, opting for a 12v regulated output. This plugs into the 9v of the main board. Then, for R19, I used a 9v regulator. This actually yielded about 8.8v in my case, but that was fine. I left R15 at the 470k I subbed in earlier, and upped R31 from 22k to 150k to control the self-oscillation.

Following this I was able to around 500ms or so of very nice delay. I say 500ms, but I don't know how exact that is....it's a guess.

At maximum delay, it's obviously going to get kinda dirty. However, it's very dynamic sensitive. So, playing softly, I got very distortion free results. Picking/strumming hard essentially 'overloads' the BBD some, but even then it was not un-musical. The distortion is more like the DMM overload, and not hard/nasty clipping.

Hopefully this gives you some new methods to try, Josh. If you've soldered the dual delay board to the main board already, you'll have a bit of a time desoldering all that. For mine, I have a socket on the main board. On the dual board, I took resistor leads, folded them in half and soldered four of those to the 4 pairs of pads on the DD board. Then I snipped the connections on the top side and trimmed the leads on the bottom to the same length. So, it's essentially "plug and play" this way...you can always remove it and put a single BBD on there at a later time.

Thanks a lot Brian  ;D

Yes, I soldered the DD board with old resistor leads and didn't think to socket the spot on the board to put the leads into.  That's a great idea, because If you have to get to anything under the DD board you can pull it out as well.

Did you happen to do a comparison with the double delay before and after your modifications?

I'm gonna have to get some regulators, I don't know if they carry them at "the shack". ::)

I also noticed that the byoc analog delay project uses the mps6521 in what I consider Q2, Q3, and Q4 with a mpsa18 in Q1.  I may try this too depending on my results.  The circuit is pretty similar to the aquaboy.  It doesn't help that I only have humbucker guitars either.

This definitely gives me a good direction to go and I really appreciate the time you've put into this Brian.  You've really made this a great place for DIY!  Plus the people around here are cooler  ;)

Depending on if I have the parts or not may vary the time on my report back, but I'll let everyone know when I do.  All things considered, I've learned a lot about bbd delays.  I collected as many bbd schematics as I could find and studied them for "clues".

Josh

Josh, if you don't have a 9v regulator, use a 2k2 resistor to get about the same result (if running at 12v).

Here's a pic of my set-up.



[attachment deleted by admin]

Ok, thanks.  I'll fool with it tonight again.  I can power it with my pedal power plus at 12v for now.  (I forgot I could do this) If this works out I will build up the road rage board for it.  (I got one as a present  ;) )Then it will be much more flexible for switching between boards with different power supplies. 

I'll sub in the 2k2 or whatever gets me at 9v for the bbd.

Josh

Ok, powered the pedal up at 12v.  But I ramped it up it slowly using my test rig voltage pot so I knew I wouldn't overpower the bbd's.  With the 2k2 it put me right at 8v.  I still found unfavorable distortion, but it was improved!  So from there I added a 37k resistor after c15 with a 100k at r15.  I wanted to tweak it a little but it finally had the correct sound for an analog delay.

So then I went to eat.  When I came back and powered everything up I had no more delay.  I'm unable to get delay at even the stock settings.  I did not slowly ramp up the power this time and my power source put out about 12.6v.  Did a surge fry the clock?  Is there any way to check this besides trying a new one...  I didn't smell anything funky.  The data sheet also says this "Incorporates a diode to protect the IGBT gate at power on"  If it needs replaced would a mn3101 work.  It's rated for -8 to -16v.

Josh

Quote from: gtr2 on March 08, 2011, 12:48:28 AM
Is there any way to check this besides trying a new one...  I didn't smell anything funky.

I believe with a logic probe you would be able to figure out if its burnt.

Try replacing the compander first, if you have an extra. You should be able to use a NE570, if you have one.

I tried mine at 15v briefly, but got no delay. However, my chips were undamaged and worked again after running off 12v regulated.

Hmm.. I don't have an extra but I've got a small bear order that hasn't shipped yet so I can probably add some extra stuff on...

The compander is rated up to 18V so I didn't really consider that.  I'm gonna get that and a clock anyways.  I've got my dd board separated now since I have to socket where it goes in.  There's nothing more fun than unsoldering,  ::)

Josh

Hmm...I must have mis-read the datasheet. I thought it said 8v on the Compander. 18v is much better, considering the application! In that case, NM----you did not damage the compander.

I would be really surprised if you killed the clock. It's rated at 12v, so frying it at 12.6v seems pretty unlikely. Maybe take it out and re-seat it?

Yeah, I had to clip my leads to the double delay board for access to the clock driver.  So for now I'm waiting on some 14 pin sockets.  If I build another one of these I'll have the build down to a science.  ;D 

I did some work on my free oscilloscope (Tektronix 7904 w/4 plugins) yesterday and now I have a trace.  I just need to learn how to use it properly now.  It's got a lot of knobs and buttons...  I love craigslist.  I've scored some really unbelievable deals through there.  I'm looking forward to properly calibrating my tape delays as well with this thing.

Josh

I admire your dedication to making this work. It's one of the most challenging projects here!

Quote from: madbean on March 08, 2011, 01:12:46 PM
I admire your dedication to making this work. It's one of the most challenging projects here!

Thanks, I was so close.  If I used single coil pickups I'd be fine.  I just want it right for my worst case scenario, bridge humbucker with no treble rolled off.

Josh

Thought I'd post the method I've used to attach the dd board to the main board

(http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/4/29/2423750/IMG_4207sm.jpg)

They're from here http://www.futurlec.com/ConnHead.shtml male headers in the main board, have to be cut from a double row, and 2-pin female headers go into the dd daughter board

It took the third build for me to suss this out..

Sounds like this whole garb is almost about to be superceded...., very exciting

Andy

Quote from: gtr2 on March 08, 2011, 01:09:15 PM
I did some work on my free oscilloscope (Tektronix 7904 w/4 plugins) yesterday and now I have a trace.  I just need to learn how to use it properly now.  It's got a lot of knobs and buttons...

You should find lots of useful info here :)
http://www.tek.com/Measurement/programs/301913X312631/?lc=EN&PRODUCT=&returnUrl=ct=TI&cs=pri&ci=2280&lc=EN

Quick Update...

I found that the delay was not working because the v3205 gnd pin wasn't grounding, it was showing .5V.  I traced it back and for some reason the jumper wire under the bbd showed no continuity to the ground pad.  I really can't figure out why and I can't see what's going on without removing the socket (the jumpers are under it) so I just jumped it on the bottom as well.  It wasn't from a cold solder joint because I had continuity from from either side of the jumper.  I may have gotten it cutting the soldered leads to the dd board?  Who knows, anyways I got delay again with one v3205.

I then tweaked the input signal to the v3205 with an additional resistor after c15 and I got a nice gritty, not overdriven delay.  Sounded close to my carbon copy so I was happy.  I then pulled the v3205 so I could put the DD board in its space.

On to the double delay board.  The next step was replacing the first soldered v3205 in the DD board.  It wasn't passing a signal because it took a hit when I had to desolder old pins and solder in new connector pins for the main board socket.  I was careful with the heat, but not careful enough... ::)  It was a real bear to get out, because I still had to be careful not to fry the second bbd from the board temperature.  *Note to self..always socket chips...always...*

I finally socketed the spot and left the original 2nd bbd in. Delay worked with the double delay after calibration.   ;D

I tried a different compander ne570.  It didn't handle the noise as well as the cool audio version did for what it's worth.

Everything was powered at 9v with the bbd's receiving 6.5v.  I may rig it up to run the compander a little hotter with a road rage to see if I can decrease the clock noise when running a longer delay time.  The bbd's and the clock both run off the same power line so I can't run the clock to its max 12v though...  The power to both the bbd's and clock are both based off of the r19 value.

Hopefully in the next couple days I work out my final modifications fully and breadboard a modulation circuit for trial and error.  There are a few tweaks I have in mind for it.  This had been a long build with a lot of trouble shooting.  It makes my other builds seem so easy.

I guess that wasn't really a "quick update" sorry.

For those following the tread for your own aquaboy distortion, I don't have values for my mods yet because I need to work a few things out yet.  But I can confidently say that I no longer have the "overdriven" delay problem.   :o

Josh

Ok, so I've got the delay "sound" where I want it but the delay level with the mix at max is lower than I want.  In order to make the v3205's bbd's happy the input signal had to be cut.  The overhead is 2/3's less than the mn3005's according to the data sheets.  I'm gonna have to boost the signal somehow after the bbd's  But I'm not sure if this should be done before or after the compander either.

A couple things to note:

I'm running at 18v.  The bbd's and clock are around 8.8v from a regulator in r19.

I've got a 100kB in for the mix pot. 

The overall volume of the pedal is fine, no volume drop.

thanks for any help  :)

Josh

Thanks for the updates man, as soon as some regulators and bits for the roadrage boards arrive, I'll be implementing similar stuff.

I've tried just stock with a 2k2 at R19 and a 470k at R15 which *seems* to be better. I have a 12v adapter but I think its unregulated so don't want to risk it, the output no load measures 14 or 15v..

Andy

At r15 I've got a pot subbed in there and I've got a resistor in series with c15.  Sorry I don't have any values to share because I was subbing things around till It sounded right and I haven't totally settled on anything yet on the board.

It is a big difference from stock.  The bbd chips are no longer receiving to hot a signal and they are delaying with a normal "grit" to the delays.

Here's a bump for the post bbd delay boost question on my previous post..  :)

josh

I had about an hour to try some things last night.

I removed c28 and soldered in some wires to track to the breadboard.

I built up another gain stage with a mpsa18 similar to the one right before it and put c28 at the end of the gain stage to filter the dc.

The result was pleasing.  I got more clean delay signal, but not quite enough for me.  The first repeat with the mix knob maxed is at about unity gain.  I'd like it slightly above unity gain at it's max setting.

I believe that I'm loosing some of the gain when it runs into the compander.  I'm gonna try removing c30 and inserting it after the compander tonight.

josh

Quick question about using the Road Rage board. I bought one of these a few days ago, and I may try it in my Aqua Boy whenever my double delay time board shows up. The first thing though, is that I don't see any spot on the Road Rage's board labeled for a 12v output. Is that what the +RV is? Also, I know the Road Rage is like a Swiss Army Knife type of board, so I was wondering if any of these parts aren't needed if I just want to bump the power up to 12v? I'm sort of cheap, and I don't want to waste any caps or ICs or anything if I don't have to. Haha.

Also, just to make sure I understand, if I use the Road Rage to power the Aqua Boy at 12v, all I have to do is replace R19 with a 2k2 resistor, and plug the road rage into the 9v input on the Aqua Boy's board? Seems simple enough, unless I'm missing something.

Put a 12v regulator in the reg1 spot and +rv will go to the 9v+ spot on the aquaboy board.  The value for r19 will determine the voltage to the bbd's and clock. 2k2 should be about right, but I used a 9v regulator in the r19 spot.  I did this so regardless of whether I powered the effect at 12v or 18v it would always get a steady 9v (actually 8.8v) to the clock and bbd's.

I'm not sure in my experience that running hotter than 9v is necessarily helping.  I think Brian's logic behind the 12v was to run the clock hotter to compensate for running two bbd's, but the clock runs on the same power rail as the bbd's.  The way to counter this would to run the pedal at 12v, put a jumper in r19 and slip a 9v regulator in the V+ lead between the aquaboy board and dd board.  That would give the clock 12v and the bbd's around 9.  I think you'll fry the v3205 bbd's at 12v...but this would be a work around

I am currently running at 18v, but that may be temporary.  My repeats are no longer distorting but that is due to dropping the input signal to an acceptable level to the first bbd.  I've been looking at the malekko guts of the 616 via FSB.  They've got a gain trim in there.  I think its somehow related to the delay output level to compensate for a lower input to the bbd's.  If I can find a cheaper used 616 on craigslist I'm gonna buy it to investigate how they used the v3205's successfully...  Edit:  I just found out the internal gain trim is for the buffered bypass output.

josh

Just vero'd a double delay for this and I have same problem too! Yay!!!

Now, if i'm really careful with the trims I can get it fairly clean, however if I strum a chords, It'll distort a bit. I was rather naughty and ran the whole pedal off 12v for about 10sec, I didn't notice any real improvements though. I'll be trying to figure this one out too... The extra delay time so cool though! :'(

Josh,

Any chance of a small sound sample of your current findings? I'd really like to hear exactly what your repeats are sounding like to gauge it against my own.

Quote from: madbean on March 21, 2011, 08:00:28 AM
Any chance of a small sound sample of your current findings? I'd really like to hear exactly what your repeats are sounding like to gauge it against my own.

I'll see if I can get something up after work today.

Update:  I've really been struggling with this build.  I spent about two hours debugging again yesterday, found out one of the pins to the DD board no longer was making proper conduct to the socket.  This is the fourth or fifth time I've had to debug during this process.  This is mainly from the sockets being "broke in" and not always making good a good connection also stranded wire weakening from the board due to a lot of handling.  It's been pretty frustrating.

I bread boarded up a EH LB-1 to boost the delay signal after the v3205's but it added some noise and altered the delay signal in a way I didn't like, it really made it gritty.  I also rigged a couple 1/4" jacks to take the delay line through a fatpants, but I couldn't get the signal to pass a signal through the pedal.  It would go through on bypass, but not when engaged.  (it was powered on  ;) )

Any ideas on a simple clean boost I can add in that has no tone effects.  (I feel like I'm on the gear page with that request...)

I'm also thinking I might just call it a day and leave the delay alone...  It's fine for most of what I play at this point, it just would have been nice to have the delay a little more pronounced when needed.

I'll do my best to get a sample of where I'm at..

Josh

I've recorded what mine sounds like. I only had my phone so it's a really crap recording. You can only really notice the distortion when I play those chords hard, it's not too bad. I kinda like it like that now and might just leave it as is. But compared to my mn3005 build it's not so clean.
http://snd.sc/ejQXkW (http://snd.sc/ejQXkW)

Quote from: jiffy on March 21, 2011, 11:35:27 PM
I've recorded what mine sounds like. I only had my phone so it's a really crap recording. You can only really notice the distortion when I play those chords hard, it's not too bad. I kinda like it like that now and might just leave it as is. But compared to my mn3005 build it's not so clean.
http://snd.sc/ejQXkW (http://snd.sc/ejQXkW)

I honestly had a hard time hearing the distortion in your clips because I think some of it was lost in your recording method.  I could hear a little but it was difficult.

Here's my sound clip.  Gear chain is guitar w/humbuckers-> aquaboy w/DD board ->tech 21 blonde (set clean) -> protools w/mbox

The first 1:15 min is my modified version, after 1:15 is the stock values.  I tried to match the delay levels for a close comparison.  The mods do drop the delay level and the modified version is maxed on the mix setting.  The stock version is about 1/3 of the way up.  Sorry there's a little clipping, it was a real quick sample..

http://soundcloud.com/1776-effects/delay-clip

josh-

Definitely an improvement in the first half compared to the second part there. It sounded pretty clean in that first min.

I'm using a mustang with single coils, so probably why I almost get away with it. I'll mess around with it over the next few days. One thing I noticed when I was using an audio probe was that one BBD was clean the other not (no matter where I move the trims.)

Good stuff man, that is quite an improvement

Very big difference. Interestingly, I thinking your modded version sounds pretty close to the "stock" results I've gotten. This is a mystery!

Could you summarize once more the changes you've made to achieve your mod? Maybe I can offer a solution to get your delay level bumped up.

Jiffy's sample is pretty close to what I would expect from an average build, FYI.

I can get mine to sound close to jiffy's if I lower the signal coming from my guitar.  I don't have any single coil guitars right now.  The bridge pickup I recorded with is a Seymour Duncan SH-4 JB with none of the treble rolled off.

Mods are as follows..I've been full circle on this one but here's where I'm at now.

Everything is running at 18v except the clock and bbd's which are at 8.8v from a regulator in r19

I've got a 39k resistor tied right after c15 forming a voltage divider with r15 which is at 19k.

Everything else is stock.  I can't say I notice much difference between running at 18v or 9v...

I've got a few of the v3205's and none of them sound better than one another.

josh

Hi gtr2,

Glad your AB is now working ok.
Listening to your recordings I also have to say that mine sounds like your final modded version, but then stock with the only change of r15 as discussed and suggested in the mod section.

I keep thinking that something else was different/wrong in your case.

Marc

Marc,

What guitar(s) are you running through your aquaboy?

Josh

Yes, good question ;-)

Prs archtop with humbuckers, es 335 also with humbuckers and sometimes my active system for acoustic guitar wich is on line level.......

All pretty hot signals......There is even an ep pre and ep booster in front in the chain....

Marc

Hey gtr2 when you posted your demo did you have depth at the max? Just wondering because in my demo the first repeat is actually slightly louder than unity gain(when depth=maxed), but in your demo it's not, so is that because of the mod or just because you didn't have the depth maxed?

Edit: okay just re-read your post now... ahh. So the only way to fix this would be to attenuate the input to the BBD then amplify the wet signal back to just above unity gain.. hmm I think i'll just leave mine as is. Although the distortion is a little worse than my recording really shows, I think it's livable with, I really like the extra time ;D

I rechecked all the components which was time consuming and difficult based on the orientation of the resistors.  Wasn't to bad because now I have the 10k color code memorized.

I did some playing with the pedal last night in my normal "rig".  Used the same guitar as I have been, Schecter C-1 with a seymour duncan JB SH-4 bridge pickup.   Described as this on the website "Provides slammin' output while retaining singing highs"  Same issues with the unmodded version in my rig.  No surprise there...  It's actually not the distortion that bothers me its some of the fizzyness that hangs around the notes.  That was a bad description...

So I switched guitars to a 08 Les Paul Standard w/Burstbucker pro's, my normal playing out guitar.  (It normally stays in the case at home to protect it from crayons and stray projectiles)

Since I have a 100k pot in for r15 I found I could adjust the pot to 100k with my normal 39k resistor after c15 and get a much louder acceptable delay.  If I removed the 39k resistor it still left to much signal in to the bbd.

My old danelectro U2 with lipstick pickups I can run the aquaboy at stock.

This delay is very dependent on the guitar more specifically the pickup output.

I'm happy enough with my findings and this is what I'm going to end up with.

A 39k resistor right after c15 and a 100k trim pot in for r15.  I'll adjust the 100k trim so sounds good with my les paul which will give a first delay around unity gain.  I don't ussually play with a delay that is stronger than my original signal anyways. 

So if you want to mod yours just pull c15 and put in a 39k down the neg lead of a new 10uF cap back in the board.  Then put a 100k trim in for r15.  I've got to source one that fits...

I'm done tinkering with this, well besides the mod board.  ;)

josh

Resoldered all the components and mods to the pcb today and I breadboarded the LFO circuit.   Sounds really lush or it can get pretty wild too!  Next update will be the completed build.  Probably in a couple weeks due to some other priorities and a few more small mods.  Instead of putting a trim pot at r15 like I was going to I stuck a 51k resistor there.  This is in addition to the 39k installed in series right after c15.  This was a good compromise and sounds great without to much delay volume lost.  I found that a voltage divider was a much better way to cut the signal than just sending more signal to ground with a lower resistance at r15.  I'm also running at only 9v now.  I'll make a detailed post about what I did, sound sample or video, and what my LFO mods were after the completed build.  With what I know now, I wouldn't hesitate to build another one of these.  It sounds really nice and I'm kind of a delay snob... ::)

Here's the modulation circuit up and running...  I've modded it a little since this pic for an led indicator and some more usable range.

Josh

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5055/5562804608_534e0c7c75.jpg)

Good work gtr2!  I will study your notes once you post them.
Where did you get your board, from digital destruct?

Edit:

The Double Delay board was from there when he found a second batch.  I've got to perf or etch a mod board..

well I'm still confused, but I guess it will make sense later when you post your notes. :)

Just a note for anyone wanting to do the double delay but can't get the boards there's a vero layout here which I used:
http://www.sabrodesign.com/?p=698 (http://www.sabrodesign.com/?p=698)

Quote from: jiffy on March 30, 2011, 10:58:04 AM
Just a note for anyone wanting to do the double delay but can't get the boards there's a vero layout here which I used:
http://www.sabrodesign.com/?p=698 (http://www.sabrodesign.com/?p=698)

That guy has some great layouts on his site for a bunch of rare old effects!