Its a fine line isnt it? Whats acceptable mojo and whats not? It can get taboo. There appear to be a select group of acceptable components that are fine to tout as good sounding parts but others that are not acceptable to even use amongst pedal builders (like in the recent em drive thread -> Russian caps). The thing is...the best sounding rangemaster ive built so far was my Russian nos cap + carbon comp resistors rangemaster kit. I compared it to a 'tayda' rangemaster, same biasing, same ge trannie, and I liked it better! the distortion / noise created by the old components gave it loads of character. I have a video of this . May finally upload one day.
So for you, where does the corksniffing begin? Whats worthwhile experimenting with and what will you just not touch at all? Transistors? Caps? Resistors!? DIODES!!!??
This subject interests me as there are such divided opinions and I hope people will argue violently. ;)
This is going to be a fun thread! I think all mojo is acceptable, as long as one can appreciate it for what it is and doesn't forget to use ones ears. Like in your case, if it sounds better, it sounds better! The only reason I 'mojofied' my recent Weener build was because I thought it was fun to do, not to chase some elusive perfect wah sound. To summarize: keep it fun and use your ears!
Paul
Regarding the "sound" of carbon comp resistors, I read something a few days ago that explained when and why they would sound different, e.g. "good" for our ear. I think I found the link on this forum. It was interesting.
Regarding mojo, I think it is fun to make/have pedals with different/rarer components, but my stance is generally that the more pedals/processing there is in a signal chain, the less noticeable any change of component will be, so I do not bother much (as a matter of fact, I just received Bosstone boards from OSH Park, made for metal film resistors and 5 mm caps; it almost looks boring, but I find it quite fun).
I'd rather throw $10 for a nice switch than the same price to replace standard parts with elusive ones. With the switch, I'm not relying on a placebo effect to appreciate the change.
I only mojo stuff up for tartiness sake. Not for any sonic reasons.
I firmly believe that if you like it, then it is "acceptable"...regardless of the reason. 8)
I've used caps and resistors and transistors just because of the way they looked. Tants look cool. Carbon comp resistors look cool. Metal-can and "flying saucer" trannies look cool. Box caps look cool. Axial non-potted inductors look cool! 8)
If I wanted to build the same pedal with the same sound on an ongoing basis and with a moderate degree of consistency, I would select the highest-tolerance, lowest-noise parts that are reasonably priced. 5% caps / 1% resistors / silicon transistors are all plenty "good enough" for consistency from pedal to pedal. And I would only choose current-production parts, except in cases where the existing volume of product is very high and the price is also reasonable.
But for fun one-off DIY stuff (which is really the whole point, isn't it?), anything goes. Whatever kind of parts you throw in the box will work and sound *basically* the same as any other set of parts (assuming values are the same).
Oh man.
I'd like any audience members with sensitive dispositions to leave the building now. I don't think it'll be an unpopular opinion, but you never know ...
...
I'll just go through individual parts ...
Resistors
RG Keen did an excellent article on Carbon Comp resistors, which is fortunate because I don't have the equipment to test this. They are capable of introducing resistor distortion at VERY high voltages. This property CANNOT occur in stompboxes. I'm not saying "is likely inaudible" or "maybe a little once in a while." It is literally impossible to produce this property in a stompbox running on 9, 12, 15, 18, 24, or even 30 volts, which I imagine is every guitar pedal and almost every rack unit ever created.
I did matched resistor replacements one at a time and could not hear a difference except a little added noise. That was good enough for me.
Notice no one claims that carbon film resistors have mojo? Maybe it's because they just weren't used during a period of time where people think everything had mojo.
Now you want some REAL mojo, get spendy and find glass resistors. Those things look frigging awesome and are super rare and expensive. I never was able to get enough together for a treble booster, but I really wanted them for an all-glass-and-metal booster.
Capacitors
There's another RG Keen article where he examined capacitor types and scoped them. This is another thing that only appears when you have enough voltage and bandwidth to produce changes.
Most of the capacitor mojo ends up being applied to guitars, where it is utterly and completely absurd. A lot of multimeters (including mine at home) don't measure capacitance, and capacitors have horrible tolerances, so it gets particularly laughable when people swap them out in a guitar or something and say, "look, this one sounds so much WARMER" (and man what a stupid word that is). Add to that the fact that the human brain is incapable of remembering a sound for more than 2 seconds (which is surely longer than it took you to switch that cap in your guitar) and it's <shakes head> time. In particular, because it's an RC filter, differences between caps become even less noticeable the second the guitar's tone pot is adjusted.
However, caps really do sound different in the right circumstances. Some electrolytics have less internal resistance, so they actually work better, which can be important for filtering out noise. Ceramics really do introduce distortion when working with enough voltage (not the couple hundred microamps your pickups). Film caps have reliably good performance. Some paper in oil caps really do have the lowest distortion of any other types of caps.
But like resistors, most people building mojo-riffic products, and dare I say it most people building their own stompboxes with mojo parts, get it into their head that some type of capacitor sounds better, so when they go to test it OF COURSE it sounds better, and you will never be able to convince them otherwise, even if you run it through a scope with matched capacitance. Suddenly it'll become the Emperor's New Ears, or "the scope isn't sensitive enough" (!), or something like that.
Transistors
Yes, germanium transistors sound different from off-the-shelf silicon transistors. And I say this as a lover of germanium. But the reason is that they just happen to have some properties (mainly leakage) inherent in their construction. You can fake leakage. You can match the lower gain characteristics (it's tough getting low-gain silicon, but nothing says that you have to max out the gain on any particular transistor ...). There is really only one property of germanium that can't be faked with a couple extra passives, and that's temperature drift -- a characteristic that we usually take measures to minimize or eliminate!
Germanium transistors ARE useful in that different types might have more of a particular property that you need without needing the extra parts (usually a treble bypass and an adjustment of the positive bias resistor). Use them for that reason. Don't use them because you think germanium is some magic spice. It isn't.
Diodes
Let's all have a nice laugh at Am for tracking down some super rare silicon diode and buying all of them up because they think that forward voltage can't be matched with other diodes.
Germanium diodes also have leakage, which results in a softer knee. If you want to fake this with schottky diodes, you can use some small amount of resistance in series with the diodes.
Temperature drift is, again, not generally considered a desirable characteristic by anyone.
...
For the most part, mojo is almost entirely about the idea that older components somehow sound better. You can always introduce flaws intentionally. Even a lot of cheap modern parts are made better than older parts, but the high-quality components now are worlds better and more reliable. Every time I see someone posting that the carbon comp resistors are what makes their pedal sound so good I want to ask them if they're typing their build report on an Apple 2 or a Commodore 64.
I really have to stop reading Jon's posts at work, my guttural sounds of agreement are getting hard to explain, but very well written.
Back to the topic on hand, given the high number of components and the fact that they all have cumulative tolerances, mojo is probably more happy accidents than design or perception, regardless of how many unicorn tears are dropped on the input buffer.
Sent from my GT-S7560M using Tapatalk
I've just made a fuzz with axials and carbon comp resistors because a) it looks cool and b) I already had them :) That's it.
Quote from: midwayfair on December 02, 2013, 03:48:38 PM
Yes, germanium transistors sound different from off-the-shelf silicon transistors. And I say this as a lover of germanium. But the reason is that they just happen to have some properties (mainly leakage) inherent in their construction. You can fake leakage. You can match the lower gain characteristics (it's tough getting low-gain silicon, but nothing says that you have to max out the gain on any particular transistor ...). There is really only one property of germanium that can't be faked with a couple extra passives, and that's temperature drift -- a characteristic that we usually take measures to minimize or eliminate!
The one thing I don't think you can "fake" is the much lower Base-Emitter forward voltage.
Quote from: culturejam on December 02, 2013, 08:10:19 PM
Quote from: midwayfair on December 02, 2013, 03:48:38 PM
Yes, germanium transistors sound different from off-the-shelf silicon transistors. And I say this as a lover of germanium. But the reason is that they just happen to have some properties (mainly leakage) inherent in their construction. You can fake leakage. You can match the lower gain characteristics (it's tough getting low-gain silicon, but nothing says that you have to max out the gain on any particular transistor ...). There is really only one property of germanium that can't be faked with a couple extra passives, and that's temperature drift -- a characteristic that we usually take measures to minimize or eliminate!
The one thing I don't think you can "fake" is the much lower Base-Emitter forward voltage.
Do they? Last time I measured germanium transistors they had a .6v Fv just like silicon. But it's been a while and maybe I dun it rong.
You should be able to fake that, though: Strap a diode across the base to emitter. (Arranged like the 9.1v zener in Mosfets.) Fv divides in parallel (er ... sorta, but I don't know what the formula is).
nominally, Ge transistors have a 0.3v drop whereas silicon have 0.7v. As you've observed, that isn't exactly where everything is.
personally I think nuthing is uglier than a stompbox with a bunch of 600v caps and several feet of cloth covered pushback wire. mojo my ass.
I draw the line at sweet copper.
I sit firmly on the fence. All of what jon says makes logical sensd to me....but then there was that rangemaster...mojo-reffic. Sounded totally different to the tayda rangemastsr. Some may have liked the tayda rangemaster better, cleaner I guess. I honestly thought I was going to be one of them. But alas, it sounds a little lifeless compared to the mojo rangemaster. I cant explain it. A oscolloscope cant explain it. I wish I had uploaded the video so I could show u all what im taLking about.
I think blanket statements like 'dont bother with x component because its a waste of time' is limiting yourself. Diodes. Dont get me wrong. I think you can hear bugger all difference between 2 diodes with the same fv. But if you can get say..old 1n34a FOR A REASONABLE PRICE I would perfer those instead of rolling the dice with modern ebay/tayda type that are unreliable.
Generally for me the scientist within thinks its all a load of bs....but...im still keeping my mind open to possibilities instead of shutting out information because I read something that told me I shouldnt bother.
Yeah on the fence.
I don't 'believe' in mojo in the sense that some parts are better because they are older, rarer, extinct, or somehow have inherent 'majick' to them. However, I do believe in another sort of Mojo.
Have you ever held a guitar and it just blew you away, not because of it's name, or it's reputation, or even of it's cost, but because it was a special instrument? It just screamed 'play me,' and you felt like you could be a better, more creative, more inspired musician if you owned/played through it? There's the mojo I believe in. I believe that there are special elements to certain pieces of gear. Sometimes they're historical, sometimes they're personal, and sometime's they're just something you can't define.
I like my mojo infused, axial caps and carbon comp companion fuzz. Why do I like it? I think it looks cool inside, and it looks cool outside. It sounds cool, and yes I 'believe' it sounds better than the cheapest parts used standard build NOT because they are 'better or mojo' parts, but because I want it to be a better pedal. Why do I believe that? Because I play better and like what that pedal does for me when I make MUSIC.
Sure, there's BS marketing out there. But there's a reason why Bonomassa plays his 59s, and there's a reason we're seeing a resurgence in old, mass produced, russian tall font Big Muffs, and there's a reason why Mayer chooses a Dumble and a standard Fender to simultaneously play through. It isn't the cost, or the 'value,' or the rarity - it's the mystique, the special 'je ne sai quoi' that makes using them feel special.
I rest my case. Jon, you're right, but you're wrong. You're right - mojo is 'sometimes' about old/rare/certain types of parts that sound better. But you're wrong because that's not what most people mean about mojo, and that's real man.
Jacob
Quote from: chromesphere on December 02, 2013, 09:55:12 PM
I sit firmly on the fence. All of what jon says makes logical sensd to me....but then there was that rangemaster...mojo-reffic. Sounded totally different to the tayda rangemastsr. Some may have liked the tayda rangemaster better, cleaner I guess. I honestly thought I was going to be one of them. But alas, it sounds a little lifeless compared to the mojo rangemaster. I cant explain it. A oscolloscope cant explain it. I wish I had uploaded the video so I could show u all what im taLking about.
I think blanket statements like 'dont bother with x component because its a waste of time' is limiting yourself. Diodes. Dont get me wrong. I think you can hear bugger all difference between 2 diodes with the same fv. But if you can get say..old 1n34a FOR A REASONABLE PRICE I would perfer those instead of rolling the dice with modern ebay/tayda type that are unreliable.
Generally for me the scientist within thinks its all a load of bs....but...im still keeping my mind open to possibilities instead of shutting out information because I read something that told me I shouldnt bother.
Yeah on the fence.
It could be the that the parts have different values due to tolerance variations. Sometimes, older "mojo" parts drift, which can account for a difference in sound.
Cant be that I tested the components and they were all bang on!
I do like big ass caps, carbon comps, NOS tubes... in fact everything that is old.
I pertinantly know that i won't make that much difference in the sound, there's not enough voltage and other parameters to truly get the most out of those components.
But i do like the look a LOT, I really like doing PTP pedals and other similar techniques in my builts and those components are the most easy to work with for that purpose.
With my forum friend, InsonicBloom, on my facebook page we went onto a debate with some fans telling about how much better this and that was sounding and bla bla bla bla. Paul (InsonicBloom) probably being one of the most factual guy out there. Did a battery of test with is scope and posted all the results. We spent a day and a half exchanging and testing out bunch of stuff, i even sent him stuff to test and that he shipped me back after for the sake of science.
The conclusion.
If a scope does'nt make a difference your ears won't, that is if you don't have some of those infamous golden ears. ;)
I am new to this and I am learning more and more with every build. I simply love the look of older parts and I love to be able to make a pedal for someone and tell them about the cool/rare parts that are in it.. but.. I noticed HUGE differences with building Big Muffs with metal film resistors simple for the fact that its quieter as far as noise. I have been very happy with metal film & box caps but it is fun to build with older components just simply for the fact that I can. I would never sell a pedal a "better" since it uses older parts. I would sell it as it "looks" cool and you have a rare piece of electronic history. I completely agree with Jacob's post about a "feeling" as I have that one guitar that I feel like I can do anything on and it just feels right and the fact that it did not cost me thousands of dollars is even better. I have bought a few lots lately of Diodes and Transistors just to have some older parts around to play with and I ended up having a bunch of builds from having them. If I did not get the lots at a rockin price, I would still be buying equivalent replacements from Mouser but since I have them, I will use them.
I also feel like mojo can be a memory of something old. Like when I play through my RE-201 it just bring back memories of tons of albums and songs I love.
Cody
Yea the look of older parts is very cool. People always love older stuff. Any kind of vintage item no matter what it is, is always cooler.
Quote from: evildead222 on December 02, 2013, 11:34:10 PMYea the look of older parts is very cool. People always love older stuff.
Yeah, but put anything under a blob of goop and tell them "there's magic underneath" and they'll positively go crazy.
But you have to be sure it's nos black vintage epoxy. Can't go for that hardware store 5min stuff.
"De gustibus non est disputandum" or something like that. I've tried different opamps in my Tube Screamer, but I can't tell any difference. I've tried Ge clipping diodes in there too, but I'm almost ashamed to say that I prefer the sound of common 1n4148s and LEDs. I know it's not sexy, but it makes my ears happy, and that's why I built it in the first place.
We build for ourselves first and foremost. That's why it's DIY. We don't have to rely on the testimony of marketing hacks and true believers. Build it how you like it 8)
Thats part of the problem and stigma against using mojo isnt it? Boutique builders selling their special version of unobtainium for lots of $$$. And well...flat out lying about its benefit when usually its probably more of a credit to the circuit then the components used. It creates a divide amongst pedal builders. I have a rangemaster that would disagree with my accepted conclusion on mojo...it sounds great! Prehaps its an isolated occurence, I would have to try other circuits andcertainly as alreadymentioned in this thread mojo can ruin an effect (big muff -> too much noise).
Quote from: davent on December 03, 2013, 03:18:06 AM
Maximized Mojo Mods!
Dear lord! that is just insane. I am dying on the couch watching this. Thanks for that, I needed a good laugh.
Tim Taylor amp :)
I think to complicate perceived differences in "toan" (thanks Bean) there is a combination placebo/belief effect happening as well. I decommissioned an ancient old phone system for the Hancock building in Chicago a number of years back and it was an ancient rotary system that took up two floors of space. As we took the old girl offline and brought up the new system I had one of my apprentices clip out anything that said Sprague on it. I got a little box of black plastic caps with orange print and they were in the sweet spot for guitar and bass tone caps. The first guitar I built from scratch at approximately the same time was my first tele and was the first guitar I ever used the tone pot on. Using a Sprague cap the tone has a beautiful range on the full range of the pot.
Unfortunately at the same time I finally understood the relationship of both volume and tone pots on a guitar to controlling an amplifier. I don't suspect for a minute that these caps changed my approach...I think I finally just "got" it. Plus, playing a church gig had given me a new perspective on nuanced playing.
BUT, I also started installing the caps on friend's and select customer's gear and I'm not sure if they really sounded better, or I had a subtle influence on their ears. I think there's a strong connection between "wanting" to hear better sounds and actually "hearing" better sounds.
In the meantime I'm almost out of the caps. Everyone is happy, including me, and at the end of the day: there's the mojo...
Just because it's a placebo, it doesn't mean it doesn't work.
"For a medication, device or procedure to be considered effective by the FDA, it has to be proven to be more effective than placebo. That can be challenging, since as many as 30 percent of people can experience improvement with placebos (http://herald-review.com/news/opinion/editorial/columnists/to-your-good-health-placebo-effect-strong-medicine-to-some/article_4bb01a1a-53ce-11e3-9791-001a4bcf887a.html)."
Quote from: davent on December 03, 2013, 03:18:06 AM
Maximized Mojo Mods!
Man, that looks like you're asking for a fire.
I'm giving the amp modder the benefit of the doubt. I think that cloth wiring jacket stuff is ASBESTOS. So safe in a fire, but deadly when the amp powers on, vibrates and then creates airborne particles.
.
The hype behind the Mojo? It's just that... or is it? Mojo-jo-jo(what I call the hype!) is crap. It's the marketing speak for the cork sniffers, rare parts (we had a bunch of odd ball parts we didn't know what to do with so we built X around it). Can I tell the difference between a PIO, Mylar, Drop, Vitamin, or a Bee(real or fake)? What I mean does a Sprague OD sound different than a Mylar of the same (measured) value ? H e double hockey sticks (that's hell) no. But old parts drift, old parts look cool, old parts cost more(some times). If it's old and it looks cool it must be expensive right? As DIY's we are all aware of the markup on pedals, and there are some that are even remotely aware of the time and effort required to for R&D. So I don't begrudge a company figuring out a way to separate a fool and their money via extraordinary hype, and high prices. That's the free market. We have the supply and you pay what we demand. Naturally if someone is willing to buy my pedals for $200 you can bet your arse I'm gonna let them. I'd much rather sell 4 at $200 than 6 at $100.
A possible explanation... I know what "warm" and "cold" sound like, but it's not usually dictated by the brand of caps, but more so their value (µf not $f) the controls and the pups. Lets look at a very commonly used ±20% .047 µf "greenie meanie" mylar, at the low end it's .037 µf and the high end it's .056 µf and your run of the mill 500K tone control, also ±20% (400K/600k respectively). Your luck of the draw parts bin combination may sound unappealing, cold, harsh, icepicky, all because of a 400k pot and a .037 µf greenie, and brighter pups. So then when Joe drops (or preferably pays me to) in those brand new historical spec (that's important because they are not BumbleBee's) it could be "warmer" because of a higher cap value due to the variance. It could also very well be complete placebo effect because they paid $125 for 2 caps and it MUST sound better. Wood, nut, pup, pot, cap, fingers(yup they actually matter) all go together to make the sound. There isn't in my years of experience any one secret sauce that makes a guitar great. This translates into pedals and amp's too. If I find it (the secret sauce), I'll be sure to sell it to all of you at a $2 (friend price) for the recipe (and I'd be cutting me own throat!).
As previously mentioned... sometimes though certain things inspire us for absolutely no reason. Because it's different, a challenge, because Brian left room on the board, looks/sounds funky, looks/sounds/is old. I'm one of those weirdo's that like putting one(or more) unique/old/strange part(s) in my pedals. I, like the rest of you, tinker with my stuff until it sounds right, cool, funky, or just how I want it to. Who else has a wah with a relay controlled boost in it? Not even me cause it's still on the bench because of school. Same as the choke for my JCA22H, yet my lead guitarist swears up and down my amp sounds better since I installed it.
So if carbon comps,PIO's, funk, old skool, relays, bi-color leds, hand painted enclosures, etc inspire you to make music, then by all means use them. Pick up your instrument and make some music. That right there, that's the real mojo.
Quote from: anrque on December 03, 2013, 08:00:26 PM
I'm giving the amp modder the benefit of the doubt. I think that cloth wiring jacket stuff is ASBESTOS. So safe in a fire, but deadly when the amp powers on, vibrates and then creates airborne particles.
That looks like the stuff we used to cover wires up in computers before power supplies came sleeved. It did help airflow (a little , and if you used the right sizes) and certainly looked better when we added the plexi window on the side of the computer.
The blue sleeving on the so called power cord looks to be Techflex where the white is described as and does look much like cut up shoe laces. I've always thought of the video as scam/hoax done by some bored solder slinger with a pile of stuff to mess with, a junk sculpture.
Anyways... for the coolest looking and best colours of sleeving there's the stuff from Nils in Munich, Bavarian Voodoo mojo. Not sure whether things are still the same but in the past the store was only open, Internationally, at random times, all over the clock, is open at this moment so can't tell whether i lucked out or he's changed his policy.
Never ordered but great looking sleeve... someday http://en.mdpc-x.com/about.htm
dave
Another way to put it...doesn't your car seem to run better when it's clean? Your brain knows it's the same car but you'd swear it runs better.
Quote from: gtr2 on December 03, 2013, 02:47:17 AM
;D ;D ;D
"Electrons can survive in free space and get squashed in a crystal lattice"
^^ This is his explanation of why tube harmonics are different (HAHAHHAHAHHA)
The harmonic distortion content is different between tubes and solid state amps, because the equation that governs the tube's voltage compared to current through it, is dominated by a term taken to the 3/2 power. While transistors (BJTs at least, and I think FETs are different) equations are dominated by a squared power. This difference will cause different harmonic distortion characteristics. Also solid state amps tend to have push pull outputs, which can cancel most of the even order harmonics.
I'm still a student learning this stuff so sorry if I am also wrong here ::)
this is my "scope":
Nice amp blues!
Quote from: slimtriggers on December 03, 2013, 01:42:29 AMI've tried Ge clipping diodes in there too, but I'm almost ashamed to say that I prefer the sound of common 1n4148s and LEDs. I know it's not sexy, but it makes my ears happy, and that's why I built it in the first place.
Don't be ashamed, you are not alone! My favorite clipping combination for a Tubescreamer is a single 1N4148 and a red LED.
It's the perfect asymmetrical pair in my
completely irrelevant opinion. ;)