Say goodbye to the boo tweek klon market
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=1361044
You beat me to the post! I just logged in to start a topic on this, but I'm glad you did. It's disturbing to think that a company like EHX, which has invented so many great and unique effects, is now apparently looking at the DIY market and making clones of other great pedals? What's going to be next? I think EHX is slowly turning into Behringer....
So it's ok for every noob and his wife to make (modded) big muff clones, but soon as ehx blows the doors off one of the dumbest hype trains with an affordable mass produced copy it's not ok? I might get one just for the hell of it.
I like how they made the nano big muffs too, which protects their ip somewhat for the only advantage many muff clones had which was smaller size enclosures....
Looking forward to the gut shots, personally
I admit that ehx is seeing a market and filling the need. This of course will put a damper on the klone market, but just slightly. People will still pay for through-hole klones which the new ehx klone obviously is not. Tube screamers are still selling even though there are a bazillion copies out there.
Unlike Behringer, I have to stick up for ehx because they actually continue to raise the bar by making cool new effects: (pog, cathedral, freeze, come to mind) as well as pay homage to the vintage ones by making them smaller (nano muff, dmm with tap, mini amp etc).
When ehx begins to only copy others...then they will be the next Behringer. Ehx has really made a name for themselves and many effects we all love and live to build.
Hell why not.
Looks like the Klon has no chance of being in production again so fair play to them.
Don't see why ehx have any less of a right to make klones than anyone else...
Quote from: rullywowr on December 17, 2013, 12:40:18 AM
I admit that ehx is seeing a market and filling the need. This of course will put a damper on the klone market, but just slightly. People will still pay for through-hole klones which the new ehx klone obviously is not
People are silly, then. If it's the same circuit as the original or even the KTR it's a bargain regardless of through hole.
Finnegan missed a trick completely. He should just kept making them at $300 in the pimp gold horse case....
To be honest if this (slightly cynical but I'm ok with it) move by ehx funds new developments along the line of the pog, freeze etc then it's definitely "A Good Thing" (TM)
EHX is my favorite Big Pedal Inc.
Personally, I wouldn't want my business to rely on broke ass musicians. Get what you can where you can. If that means selling out or whatever just to keep your business afloat because you're damn near 80 and starting over is not an option.....helllooooo behringer!
I might get one just for the hell of it.
At that price, I'll get half a dozen and hand them out at parties.
If anyone gets a pass on the question of the morality of cloning, it's EHX.
Quote from: RobA on December 17, 2013, 01:10:01 AM
If anyone gets a pass on the question of the morality of cloning, it's EHX.
Amen! EHX and ProCo and Ibanez/Maxon, for sure.
People just don't like it when a "big" company "rips off" a small company. When it's the small guy doing the same, they call that a "faithful recreation". 8)
If there is a vacuum in the market, fill it if you can (and if you want to). Especially if somebody else drops the ball in the dumbest and most public way possible. Sweep the leg!
It used to be that a pedal company was either an innovator or a duplicator. Looks like EHX is broadening their scope from just the form to include that latter as well. And why not? Prove yourself with innovation, then backfill with duplication.
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 17, 2013, 12:44:39 AM
Quote from: rullywowr on December 17, 2013, 12:40:18 AM
I admit that ehx is seeing a market and filling the need. This of course will put a damper on the klone market, but just slightly. People will still pay for through-hole klones which the new ehx klone obviously is not
People are silly, then. If it's the same circuit as the original or even the KTR it's a bargain regardless of through hole.
People ARE silly! Same people who pay hundreds of bucks for an iec cable that powers their hifi stereo. Or all that cork sniffing that goes on at TGP or gear slutz. When there is a market, there will be someone ready to sell to it. :)
I love how EHX touts the "boosted power rails" in the marketing copy. Brilliant! ;D
This is only good news if you love a great product delivered at a fair price. actually a really attractive price. really really attractive price.
Shotgun Freekish Bluesing it!
Even for a product produced by a major manufacturer, that is amazingly low priced.
My guess is that there will still be a small market for some of the better made boutique Klone types out there, but this will probably phase out a lot of the poorly built ones that people only bought because they were the cheapest option.
And if it kills them all and takes over the market, oh well. Bill doesn't seem to be making them anymore and all of Kloners don't really have much claim on the design.
Quote from: pickdropper on December 17, 2013, 03:41:58 AM
My guess is that there will still be a small market for some of the better made boutique Klone types out there, but this will probably phase out a lot of the poorly built ones that people only bought because they were the cheapest option.
Definitely there will still be a market for "handmade klones". No doubt about that. ;)
And I would *hope* that the inconsistent/shitty small shops would be squashed by this, but alas, I do think a few of them will march on with their koolaid-drinking fanboys.
My point is that EHX should stick to reissues of their own stuff that haven't been done yet. Where is the Bad Stone, the Attack Decay, the Deluxe Big Muff? Instead we recently got a tube screamer knock off and a klon? The klon has always been a "boutique" pedal for a small, niche market. I just dont see the target market, regardless of the price point. I'm out...
Quote from: icecycle66 on December 17, 2013, 01:07:29 AM
I might get one just for the hell of it.
At that price, I'll get half a dozen and hand them out at parties.
And one for you, and you, and you, here you go, and you, wait a minute who let you in here with green socks? no pedal for you. lol
Am I the only one amused that EHX chose to put the first major manufactured clone of the Centaur in a 1590B?
I was more amused by the fact they call "nano" a pedal (big muff) in a 1590B enclosure ;D
Oh. Also, everyone should remember two things:
1) EHX has implied that they cooked up something with the same principals as the clone and with the same control layout.
2) EHX has never, to my knowledge, cloned another pedal. It's just not their M.O.
My money is on 18V/0V operation, silicon diodes, clean blend, active treble, and buffered bypass, and not the same parts values with less filtering in general. It's released on Dec. 30 -- I expect FSB will have it traced by New Year's Eve.
Quote from: midwayfair on December 17, 2013, 02:11:52 PM
Oh. Also, everyone should remember two things:
1) EHX has implied that they cooked up something with the same principals as the clone and with the same control layout.
2) EHX has never, to my knowledge, cloned another pedal. It's just not their M.O.
My money is on 18V/0V operation, silicon diodes, clean blend, active treble, and buffered bypass, and not the same parts values with less filtering in general. It's released on Dec. 30 -- I expect FSB will have it traced by New Year's Eve.
Those are all very reasonable guesses.
I think you're right, Jon. I doubt they would do a straight clone. They've got actual engineers, so they likely improved it. ;D (that's blasphemy, I know!)
Quote from: culturejam on December 17, 2013, 02:57:51 PM
I think you're right, Jon. I doubt they would do a straight clone. They've got actual engineers, so they likely improved it. ;D (that's blasphemy, I know!)
Exactly.
They'll have cloned the King Slayer instead ;)!
Quote from: midwayfair on December 17, 2013, 02:11:52 PM
I expect FSB will have it traced by New Year's Eve.
Accurate.
Quote from: midwayfair on December 17, 2013, 02:11:52 PM
My money is on 18V/0V operation, silicon diodes, clean blend, active treble, and buffered bypass, and not the same parts values with less filtering in general. It's released on Dec. 30 -- I expect FSB will have it traced by New Year's Eve.
Agreed.
There'll still be plenty of space leftover for Klones. We're talking about people (guitarists) who will pay $120 for film caps wrapped in bumblebee paper. They're going to demand a 1:1 Klone with through-hole parts and diodes with mystique.
Now that the world finally has a 'poor-man's' klone, they'll be dogging them compared to 'real' klones, which is ironically hilarious on several levels.
EVERYBODY knows that SMD components don't have the same toan characteristics as through hole ::)
Quote from: rullywowr on December 17, 2013, 07:57:24 PM
EVERYBODY knows that SMD components don't have the same toan characteristics as through hole ::)
Everyone knows that Unicorn Tears only come in 5mm so this will not sound as good as the original. too bad also. lol
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/73135424/madbean%20meme/43952203.jpg)
OK, might as well get into it ...
There are differences going SMD. However, at such low voltages does it make a difference in what you hear?
Thick or thin film resistors? 1/10 watt resistors - more noise than larger package?
And then there's ceramic caps rather than film. Again, they have a noisier profile.
In an A/B test could you hear the difference? Maybe. Probably not much. However, these things are fodder for guitar forums, so they matter. Honestly, if I had my choice, I'd build my own with the betterest components I can get because that's how I roll. 8)
At $68, this is not aimed at the TGP crowd, or even us. What we forget sometimes is that there is a worldwide market that doesn't give two shakes about the newest, latest, or greatest. There is a very small, less than %1, crowd who's ever owned 4 or more different overdrive pedals. Almost all guitarists I know buy pedals and keep them, or use them until they break. These people walk into stores, look at the pedals and say, "hey wow! that SD-1 is only $39 bucks? Let me try that!" Then they grab a random guitar (that is not their own), grab a couple beat up old cables (probably factory defects) and then plug into some solid state amp (that may be similar to what they own) and play for a minute or two. Then they buy that pedal, and will play it whenever and wherever they play.
There is a very, very small crowd of people, and I'm probably one of them, who have played or used more than 3 or 4 overdrives, and is knowledgable about the differences, sonically and electrically, between them. In my circumstance, I know exactly what a klon sounds like, and I use one at certain times. I also know what I do and don't like in many places, and for heaven's sake I have no idea why people like the Rat. But getting back on point.
Around the world, EHX is going to ship a very inexpensive overdrive, and nobody but a few people are going to understand it's a klone. To everyone else, it's just EHX releasing a batch of inexpensive overdrive pedals that they can choose over/beside a Boss or Joyo or Behringer or whathaveyou. They'll sell tonnes them, but very rarely will people be realizing they're buying a klone.
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on December 17, 2013, 10:08:53 PM
At $68, this is not aimed at the TGP crowd, or even us. What we forget sometimes is that there is a worldwide market that doesn't give two shakes about the newest, latest, or greatest. There is a very small, less than %1, crowd who's ever owned 4 or more different overdrive pedals. Almost all guitarists I know buy pedals and keep them, or use them until they break. These people walk into stores, look at the pedals and say, "hey wow! that SD-1 is only $39 bucks? Let me try that!" Then they grab a random guitar (that is not their own), grab a couple beat up old cables (probably factory defects) and then plug into some solid state amp (that may be similar to what they own) and play for a minute or two. Then they buy that pedal, and will play it whenever and wherever they play.
There is a very, very small crowd of people, and I'm probably one of them, who have played or used more than 3 or 4 overdrives, and is knowledgable about the differences, sonically and electrically, between them. In my circumstance, I know exactly what a klon sounds like, and I use one at certain times. I also know what I do and don't like in many places, and for heaven's sake I have no idea why people like the Rat. But getting back on point.
Around the world, EHX is going to ship a very inexpensive overdrive, and nobody but a few people are going to understand it's a klone. To everyone else, it's just EHX releasing a batch of inexpensive overdrive pedals that they can choose over/beside a Boss or Joyo or Behringer or whathaveyou. They'll sell tonnes them, but very rarely will people be realizing they're buying a klone.
Jacob
^^^ So very true. I once bought a RP100 and thought it was awesome, didn't know any better. Then somebody gave me a Boss flanger. Not the best flanger, but the best way I can describe it is like this
effect control on a multi-effect pedal = 2 slices of pizza
effect control on a real pedal = the rest of the pizza
Never looked at "to good to be true", "cheap", or "multi" ever again when it comes to pedals
Although now days we can really thank You Tube for saving us time and money
YAHOO!!
I can quit debugging my kingslayer and just buy one of these :D
Quote from: jubal81 on December 17, 2013, 09:36:59 PM
OK, might as well get into it ...
There are differences going SMD. However, at such low voltages does it make a difference in what you hear?
Thick or thin film resistors? 1/10 watt resistors - more noise than larger package?
And then there's ceramic caps rather than film. Again, they have a noisier profile.
In an A/B test could you hear the difference? Maybe. Probably not much. However, these things are fodder for guitar forums, so they matter. Honestly, if I had my choice, I'd build my own with the betterest components I can get because that's how I roll. 8)
I have no idea how they did it, but you can actually use SMT PPS (film) caps if you want to get funky. And those are more expensive than standard film caps, so they have extra mojo. :-)
I'd only bother with caps in the signal path, however.
Quote from: jkokura on December 17, 2013, 10:08:53 PM
At $68, this is not aimed at the TGP crowd, or even us. What we forget sometimes is that there is a worldwide market that doesn't give two shakes about the newest, latest, or greatest. There is a very small, less than %1, crowd who's ever owned 4 or more different overdrive pedals. Almost all guitarists I know buy pedals and keep them, or use them until they break. These people walk into stores, look at the pedals and say, "hey wow! that SD-1 is only $39 bucks? Let me try that!" Then they grab a random guitar (that is not their own), grab a couple beat up old cables (probably factory defects) and then plug into some solid state amp (that may be similar to what they own) and play for a minute or two. Then they buy that pedal, and will play it whenever and wherever they play.
There is a very, very small crowd of people, and I'm probably one of them, who have played or used more than 3 or 4 overdrives, and is knowledgable about the differences, sonically and electrically, between them. In my circumstance, I know exactly what a klon sounds like, and I use one at certain times. I also know what I do and don't like in many places, and for heaven's sake I have no idea why people like the Rat. But getting back on point.
Around the world, EHX is going to ship a very inexpensive overdrive, and nobody but a few people are going to understand it's a klone. To everyone else, it's just EHX releasing a batch of inexpensive overdrive pedals that they can choose over/beside a Boss or Joyo or Behringer or whathaveyou. They'll sell tonnes them, but very rarely will people be realizing they're buying a klone.
Jacob
Fully agree in everything but your point about the Rat ;)
Quote from: jubal81 on December 17, 2013, 09:36:59 PM
Thick or thin film resistors? 1/10 watt resistors - more noise than larger package?
And then there's ceramic caps rather than film. Again, they have a noisier profile.
At 9V and low current, I don't think humans could hear the noise difference between 1/4-watt and 0805 or any other surface-mount package. The Johnson noise is the same regardless of the physical size, and excess noise is a function of voltage and resistive element type.
Ceramic caps do indeed tend to be more microphonic than other types, and the rated capacitance drops as you near the voltage rating limit. So there's that, but for pedals mostly it's a non-issue. The tolerance is pretty good on the SMD stuff, usually. That's my biggest issue with ceramic.
TL;DR: In pedal applications, between SMD and through-hole there is very little difference in audio output in the human hearing spectrum. But teh mojo is lacking. ;D
Quote from: culturejam on December 18, 2013, 04:23:40 PM
TL;DR: In pedal applications, between SMD and through-hole there is very little difference in audio output in the human hearing spectrum. But teh mojo is lacking. ;D
True enough, but we all know the typical TGP poster has superhuman golden ears. I think there'll still be a market for Klones, maybe even more so because people might like the Soul Food and decide they need to 'upgrade.'
Quote from: jubal81 on December 18, 2013, 04:33:29 PM
True enough, but we all know the typical TGP poster has superhuman golden ears.
Are these the same people that can hear 6" cable differences after a buffer and use power conditioning chords on their amps?
Quote from: jubal81 on December 18, 2013, 04:33:29 PM
True enough, but we all know the typical TGP poster has superhuman golden ears. I think there'll still be a market for Klones, maybe even more so because people might like the Soul Food and decide they need to 'upgrade.'
Absolutely. I wasn't arguing TGP, I was arguing reality. ;D
And I'm not saying that there isn't some sort of sonic difference, it's just that I don't believe the vast majority of players would be able to consistently pick out which was which (through-hole vs smd) in blind testing.
From listening to the demo, it really does nail the Klon sound - dead on from what I can hear on Youtube. Anyone know why people call the Klon 'transparent?' I wouldn't in a million years think to describe it that way. Is it code for 'clean blend?'
I did not particularly like the demo. Could be the gear, or player. Dunno. Hopefully there will be some comparison video directly with the Klon or KTR.
^^ I thought the demo sounded like shit, if we're speaking plainly. ;D
I've actually never played a Klon/Klone. I think it's partially because all of demos I've heard make it sound bad, and partially because I reject everything that is the Klon mystique. And if I want a sound that is "like your amp, but more of it", I'll either turn up the volume or add a boost up front.
I have been accused in the past of being a recalcitrant contrarian. 8)
Its the blue shirt contrasting on the strat. Go back to the forum while audio is playing (sounds better) LOL
They now make a bass version too with added clean blend;
Quote from: culturejam on December 18, 2013, 05:28:18 PM
And if I want a sound that is "like your amp, but more of it", I'll either turn up the volume or add a boost up front.
I can
so dig that philosophy. 8)
For me the whole point of dirt boxes, or any kind of stomp box for that matter, is to not sound like my amp.
I think the bass version sounds like poo. Bass doesn't need overdrive. It needs FUZZ (with a clean blend)!
I thought the Bass version sounded better on guitar as well, though it was fun to listen to, as I never pay attention to Gene Simmons bass lines (or, in general, anything Kiss has put out since Revenge, which is what, 25 years ago), and my first thought was the writing session went something like this
Gene - "Hey guys, I've mastered a lick that involves more than the fat string!"
Ace/Paul/Peter - "We can work with that, now let's expand that into something."
Gene - "I don't think you heard me. I MASTERED A LICK. You guys do the rest of the work."
I do realize that all the wrath of the Kiss Army will now descend upon me.......
Speaking as someone who never heard of them till his twenties, I never really understood why they got such a reaction. Especially when I listen to their music. Just sounds like normal, somewhat poppy, rock and roll to me.
Quote from: GermanCdn on January 06, 2015, 02:33:40 PM
... my first thought was the writing session went something like this
Gene - "Hey guys, I've mastered a lick that involves more than the fat string!"
Ace/Paul/Peter - "We can work with that, now let's expand that into something."
Gene - "I don't think you heard me. I MASTERED A LICK. You guys do the rest of the work."
LOL!! Too funny. It's early going, but that may be my laugh of the day. Of course, the conversation continued:
Ace/Paul/Peter - "We KNOW Gene: you've already registered A PATENT on THE LICK so we either have to pay for use or come up with a lick that performs a different, but similar function or performs the same function in a different way. YOU'VE TOLD US!"
Love the old Kiss hits though. Can't help it. Part of my formative years and all that.
Thanks for the humour!
I always figured that the Kiss band meetings went more like this:
"Hey, should we practice?"
"No, we don't have time. We need to make T-Shirts, Calendars, Trading Cards and Action Figures. We'll practice later."
Quote from: pickdropper on January 06, 2015, 06:45:20 PM
I always figured that the Kiss band meetings went more like this:
"Hey, should we practice?"
"No, we don't have time. We need to make T-Shirts, Calendars, Trading Cards and Action Figures. We'll practice later."
I thought it went like this: "Bob Ezrin [or other applicable producer] says the album is coming along great. He's going to call us when they are done the recording so we can come in for the photoshoot."
I think that there's something to adding a little overdrive/boost to a bass signal though. Does give it a more "alive" sound. Though I guess that's more boost than anything.
The guy who worked on it has been posting about it over on talkbass. I asked him what he changed and here's what he had to say:
http://www.talkbass.com/threads/new-ehx-bass-soul-food.1125816/page-2#post-16804624
Cory,
How is this different from the regular soul food? Did you just beef up the input caps or mod other parts of the circuit? What kinds of diodes? Silicon? Getmanium?
Hey, thanks for asking. The circuit was pretty significantly changed - certainly some input and coupling caps were enlarged, but I found that that wasn't enough. Obviously the blend knob is a big change, which is parallel circuit to the entire SF circuit, using a nice op-amp. There's also the pad switch, which uses the other half of the same op-amp. Of course, the standard SF gain knob is a sort-of clean blend with a dual-gang pot. I kept this the same - the drive knob still mixes between an EQ'd clean path and the clipping path (so if you're using the BSF as a clean boost by turning the drive knob low, you can change the color of the boost from totally pure to totally EQ'd). The EQ on the clean path is a big part of the magic of the original circuit, but I found it needed to be tweaked for bass - the BSF is in the same ballpark as the SF clean path, but is more pleasant on bass to our ears. The overdrive path had changes to the frequency response of the first gain stage, and a modified clipping section with different diodes (I don't think I can just say what they are, but I'm sure someone will trace the circuit soon enough) and one other bass-centric trick. The mixing stage between the pseudo-clean and drive also has some filtering changes. Finally, the frequency range impacted by the Treble knob was tweaked to be a little more appropriate to the highs produced by a bass. Sorry if that's more chatter than you were looking for... I can go on and on about this stuff and sometimes don't know when to stop!