Hi folks,
I've been reading threads and threads here, staying up too late, wife's getting pissed, oh well, I just had to register and post. Please excuse me if I posted in the wrong forum, I honestly gave it a lot of thought as to where this thread should be.
I know so many factors come into "tone" that it's almost never possible to truly recreate a given sound, especially if its in the hands of another player, but I've been searching and searching for a build or even a retail pedal that will travel the road with me in this direction (Ron Woods live tone w/ The Faces 1971): http://youtu.be/JRa6l1x-Q6E?t=20m3s
Of course the recorded version of "Stay with me" is absolute gold, I'm afraid he may be overdriving the board or other factors may be involved that could make this tone even harder to come close to.
So I've watched countless youtube videos of pedals and builds and it's driving me nuts. But I keep watching. Where I'm at now... is watching every FFM2 Germanium Fuzz Face Video I can find just hoping they will keep the drive at about 9'oclock for at least 5 seconds because in my imagination, it may come close... But I have yet to see that happen, It's mostly maxed knobs and no chords.
I have to be honest and say I can't make a solid build yet, but I also want to let you guys know that I'm not fishing for somebody to build me a custom pedal or anything like that. I have mad respect for what you do and I know it it's a passionate deal for most of y'all.
I just want to know what I should be looking at and if a commercial pedal will get me in the same ballpark, great! If it's available as something that's been build in the past, maybe somebody's got one that's collecting dust and it will pop up in classifieds somewhere... That's all:)
So please, if you have a road map as to where I should be looking it would be greatly appreciated. I play out of a early 70's Ampeg VT-40 (top loaded) that plays pretty clean until it's moving the walls. Yep, it actually moves the walls.
Thanks.
Ron Wood is probably my favorite guitarist. I don't know what he's using live on 'Miss Judy's Farm' in the clip, but in interviews I've seen him say he records his distorted tone with a tweed champ with the gain on 11 and doesn't use any pedals.
The best I've been able to do for the sound is a Black '65 and a booster in front of it. That gets me really close to the sound in the clip. I've played with the Tweed '57 but I think the '65 does a better job. So in general, I'd recommend a JFET drive with the ability to goose it until it sounds like it's going to die.
Quote from: jubal81 on January 03, 2014, 06:20:22 AM
Ron Wood is probably my favorite guitarist. I don't know what he's using live on 'Miss Judy's Farm' in the clip, but in interviews I've seen him say he records his distorted tone with a tweed champ with the gain on 11 and doesn't use any pedals.
The best I've been able to do for the sound is a Black '65 and a booster in front of it. That gets me really close to the sound in the clip. I've played with the Tweed '57 but I think the '65 does a better job. So in general, I'd recommend a JFET drive with the ability to goose it until it sounds like it's going to die.
He's my favorite player as well. My playing is obviously inspired by his. But you're right, he's never used pedals. He cranks small tweeds and even small silverface amps. In that video hes cranking a small SF Princeton, but hes got some kind of crazy wiring in his guitars I believe that ups the output signal.
I've looked at the Wampler '57 and '65 early on because it was obvious, but only on youtube and I've never heard it come close, maybe I should get to the local mom and pop and try it out myself. I have a '65 DRRI that wont touch his tone when cranked open.
I'm going to have a listen to the JFET right now.
Thanks JUBAL:)
The '65 DRRI is a blackface amp. The BF amps are different to the tweed series -- the general progression for Fender amps is the newer the amp design, the cleaner it is. I want to build a Tweed Champ at some point, they look like fun little things.
Jubal -- which amp does the Tweed '57 model, exactly? There are subtle differences between the tweeds.
I don't know which specific model, if any, Wampler was shooting for with the 57. I can't find where he's ever said.
The 65 is really versatile - it could definitely be considered for a 1-dirt setup. Though, if you want that "Oh crap, this thing is about to blow up" fuzz you'll need to push it with a clean boost.
I have a 5E3 (Tweed Deluxe) head, and a 5E8A (Low Power Tweed Twin) combo. There's a world of difference between them -- the 5E3 overdrives if you so much as blink at the volume knob, while the 5E8A will only *start* to mildly overdrive once you go deaf, and boosts do nothing except make it louder. (A boost through the 5E3, otoh, is a thing of overdriving beauty.)
(Don't remember his name) User with the 70s porn star looking avatar is the fuzz king. He would definitely be worth a good talking to. Also have a chat with steve at smallbear, if the two of you were on the same page as tone goes and took it a step further being on the same page as pcbs go. you could socket the trannys and try his recommendations. Give it a shot
Quote from: pedalman on January 03, 2014, 07:02:58 AM
(Don't remember his name) User with the 70s porn star looking avatar is the fuzz king. He would definitely be worth a good talking to. Also have a chat with steve at smallbear, if the two of you were on the same page as tone goes and took it a step further being on the same page as pcbs go. you could socket the trannys and try his recommendations. Give it a shot
Thanks Pedalman,
I'll stay on the lookout for 70's porn star avatars. Since I usually am anyway.
JakeFuzz, IIRC, he defo knows his stuff about any fuzzes :)
Isn't that Freddie Mercury on JakeFuzz's avatar?
When you said 70's porn star, I thought of Gledison. Though I must admit, I'm much better versed in actresses than actors and also in 80s variety. ;D ::)
yeah jake knows his stuff
but I was thinking more along the lines of "Cortexturizer" when I first met the guy we had a huge talk all about tone benders and fuzzes. Cant ever remember a name but with a avatar like that you will never forget it ! LOL
Maybe this thing could get your tone ! LOL
http://www.beavisaudio.com/projects/FuzzLab/
Quote from: pedalman on January 03, 2014, 07:48:33 AM
Maybe this thing could get your tone ! LOL
http://www.beavisaudio.com/projects/FuzzLab/
At first i thought that was photoshopped. I have to say though, something with a VU Meter just might do it.
Wow,
I actually found a video of somebody playing a germanium fuzz face with the gain know low, but only for 10 seconds of the entire video. But still, can't believe somebody actually did it!
http://youtu.be/ZkMiEAXz9CQ?t=10m45s
Quote from: jubal81 on January 03, 2014, 06:20:22 AM
Ron Wood is probably my favorite guitarist. I don't know what he's using live on 'Miss Judy's Farm' in the clip, but in interviews I've seen him say he records his distorted tone with a tweed champ with the gain on 11 and doesn't use any pedals.
That sound is 100% cranked champ with buckers (though some other amps will do something similar).
I actually think you might have decent luck just using a Class A boost circuit biased so your guitar overdrives it fairly easily. It won't be a ton of distortion, but it'll have the spongy character. You can stick some diodes afterward to add a bit of extra distortion (basically, make an electra with different biasing). You could also take the Rangemaster and increase the input and output caps, too.
However, you're right that a germanium fuzz face CAN get a similar sound. You might want to run the voltage (or possibly bias) down some and use a pre-gain control. The pre-gain is to get rid of the sustain and brighten it up. The lower voltage is to take the edge off and make it freak out and sag a little bit. This isn't SO radically different from just using a Class A as described above ... the way the Fuzz Face works is much closer to two transistors acting like a single amplifier anyway.
There are some FET-based circuits I'd recommend that aren't as "hard" sounding as the Black 65. The big one is the Supreaux Deux: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18IpzhvQfBo Skip to 3:25. The small Supreaux stuff wasn't
radically different from a Tweed. There's a slight problem here: You'd want the bass switch on, and I left it out of my build, and I'm using single coils, which actually makes a big difference with this circuit. But if you add the bass switch, it will get really close to a Tweed. Not quite as much buzz in the top end, but that could be a tone setting.
And there's always ...
http://www.runoffgroove.com/ruby.html
I really, really, wish I could find the video I have in mind, but perhaps a year ago I saw a demo of someone doing Ronnie Wood through a Ruby amp built into a metal canister. It was really, really close. But I've been through a couple dozen pages of videos and I didn't see it come up.
Edit, more stuff to check out:
My take on the MKII Tonebender, skip to 7:45 for a low gain setting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEPx8xdao8A
The first setting in that video isn't super high gain.
A germanium fuzz face with almost a full minute in low gain settings, then later a low gain setting with a compressor in front (this is an unpublished demo I did, I wasn't thrilled with it): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e4Art-txE0
Quote from: midwayfair on January 03, 2014, 03:09:07 PM
Quote from: jubal81 on January 03, 2014, 06:20:22 AM
Ron Wood is probably my favorite guitarist. I don't know what he's using live on 'Miss Judy's Farm' in the clip, but in interviews I've seen him say he records his distorted tone with a tweed champ with the gain on 11 and doesn't use any pedals.
That sound is 100% cranked champ with buckers (though some other amps will do something similar).
I actually think you might have decent luck just using a Class A boost circuit biased so your guitar overdrives it fairly easily. It won't be a ton of distortion, but it'll have the spongy character. You can stick some diodes afterward to add a bit of extra distortion (basically, make an electra with different biasing). You could also take the Rangemaster and increase the input and output caps, too.
However, you're right that a germanium fuzz face CAN get a similar sound. You might want to run the voltage (or possibly bias) down some and use a pre-gain control. The pre-gain is to get rid of the sustain and brighten it up. The lower voltage is to take the edge off and make it freak out and sag a little bit. This isn't SO radically different from just using a Class A as described above ... the way the Fuzz Face works is much closer to two transistors acting like a single amplifier anyway.
There are some FET-based circuits I'd recommend that aren't as "hard" sounding as the Black 65. The big one is the Supreaux Deux: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18IpzhvQfBo Skip to 3:25. The small Supreaux stuff wasn't radically different from a Tweed. There's a slight problem here: You'd want the bass switch on, and I left it out of my build, and I'm using single coils, which actually makes a big difference with this circuit. But if you add the bass switch, it will get really close to a Tweed. Not quite as much buzz in the top end, but that could be a tone setting.
And there's always ...
http://www.runoffgroove.com/ruby.html
I really, really, wish I could find the video I have in mind, but perhaps a year ago I saw a demo of someone doing Ronnie Wood through a Ruby amp built into a metal canister. It was really, really close. But I've been through a couple dozen pages of videos and I didn't see it come up.
Edit, more stuff to check out:
My take on the MKII Tonebender, skip to 7:45 for a low gain setting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEPx8xdao8A
The first setting in that video isn't super high gain.
A germanium fuzz face with almost a full minute in low gain settings, then later a low gain setting with a compressor in front (this is an unpublished demo I did, I wasn't thrilled with it): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e4Art-txE0
I've been looking at lumpys class a overdrive for probably a year now but never went for it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfZ1O2Iwi5c You mention "not a lot of distortion" and that's fine by me. It's weird, when I play, it always sounds like there's much more "distortion" than there is, and I dont know why, but I use very little.
That "stay with me" video with the gas can is still up. I think some of the reason it sounds in the ballpark is because he's playing it right and in open e. It's right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE4VpOsp5nA
Theres also a small point where the arctic white fuzz resembles it here, http://youtu.be/RA4qZtY_nIo?t=8m19s
its very close! but ive never heard it close again, in all the other videos of it i listened to... hes using reverb, without it it would be closer.
You know what though, I dont know if it's because that faces segment is on tape and compressed that way or youtube or what, but when you slap that compressor in front of that germanium od, i can hear that its wanting to go there more so than the others you suggested. Its a nice little tone there. I've actually got a cheap rogue compressor that has a really nice tonal quality to it that I may experiment with my catalinbread sft or joyo sweet baby and see what happens, but im not expecting much.
Thanks midway for taking the time to post. And I swear, I just wish some more people would demo fuzzes at least one fifth of the time with the dial to the left of noon. They may roll back the volume on the guitar for like a second, but that seems to be about it. It's bumming me out to the point of where im reading into it way too much.
Thanks again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOLSZuZ0OS8
http://jrmcgrath.com/images/triple%20valvecaster.jpg
Quote from: switched on on January 03, 2014, 04:27:55 PM
Theres also a small point where the arctic white fuzz resembles it here, http://youtu.be/RA4qZtY_nIo?t=8m19s
its very close! but ive never heard it close again, in all the other videos of it i listened to... hes using reverb, without it it would be closer.
You know what though, I dont know if it's because that faces segment is on tape and compressed that way or youtube or what, but when you slap that compressor in front of that germanium od, i can hear that its wanting to go there more so than the others you suggested. Its a nice little tone there. I've actually got a cheap rogue compressor that has a really nice tonal quality to it that I may experiment with my catalinbread sft or joyo sweet baby and see what happens, but im not expecting much.
The Arctic White is a fuzz face, just with a FET in one of the stages instead of another BJT. You can get the same sounds out of a regular low-gain fuzz face.
Definitely try the comp before the fuzz. I used to do that order, but ended up switching when I started using the Azabache on my board (so now I'm Fuzz > Comp > OD)
And thanks for the link to the tin can amp guy!
That is definitely the fuzzy drive that comes from a cranked champ. My clone can get me that sound but it is always loud as hell ;D
To me that sound is a little more ragged and bright than what you will get out of a fuzz face and has much less gain than what you would get out of a MKII bender. As Jon mentioned there are a few tweaks you could make to the FF to get you closer to that sound. I would also recommend trying a small (10nF to 1uF) capacitor in parallel with the Q2 emitter resistor (1K). This rolls off low end as the fuzz knob is turned down to prevent the normal dulling you get with the gain below max. A full Ge FF may have too much bottom end and you may want to try a hybrid with a Ge in Q1 and an Si in Q2. You could also build a MKII and run it with the volume knob on your guitar turned down (or an input volume control). This has that bright overdriven fuzz sort of sound you might be looking for.
It does sound to me like you are looking for more of an FET preamp model tone (as has been mentioned). I cannot recommend the SFT (@ 18V of course) enough. Ive built 3 and they all sound great. There are many different FET drives out there but I have only built four of them so someone may have a better overall idea of the whole range. I think the Tweed 57 is going to be the closest for what you are going for as far as the EQ goes but you may want to test different ones through your amp.
You could go and build a low (or full :D) plate voltage tube drive but I feel like a lot of THAT sound comes from non-linearities after the preamp. Especially that fuzziness in my small single ended amps (which is why it is always blasting loud when it sounds so cool).
Two other recommendations I can make are the Les Lius and the Blackstone MOSFET overdrive. The les lius has that lower gain ragged drive sound (it was marketed by Lovepedal as a Tweed amp emulator). It might be a little less gain than you are looking for but it is definitely worth a try IMO if you can find one (it is super simple to build too though). The MOSFET OD has a really interesting sound that sounds similar to preamp overdrive but darker. It was a little more smooth IIRC than what you may be going for but I think a few EQ tweaks could get you there.
I think I've made it more confusing now ;) sorry about that! And sorry for the delay; i've been on vacation and away from a computer these last two weeks.
I think we've got you worked out, bud. Now all you need is a FET drive, Boost, Mosfet OD and Modded fuzz face together in one enclosure, hehe.
That's how we roll around here. 8)
Quote from: jubal81 on January 03, 2014, 08:17:49 PM
I think we've got you worked out, bud. Now all you need is a FET drive, Boost, Mosfet OD and Modded fuzz face together in one enclosure, hehe.
That's how we roll around here. 8)
;D
Waitaminit, if you watch the whole video, it's a SILVER champ in the back, miced up. It might even be a silver princeton.
Quote from: JakeFuzz on January 03, 2014, 07:48:24 PM
That is definitely the fuzzy drive that comes from a cranked champ. My clone can get me that sound but it is always loud as hell ;D
To me that sound is a little more ragged and bright than what you will get out of a fuzz face and has much less gain than what you would get out of a MKII bender. As Jon mentioned there are a few tweaks you could make to the FF to get you closer to that sound. I would also recommend trying a small (10nF to 1uF) capacitor in parallel with the Q2 emitter resistor (1K). This rolls off low end as the fuzz knob is turned down to prevent the normal dulling you get with the gain below max. A full Ge FF may have too much bottom end and you may want to try a hybrid with a Ge in Q1 and an Si in Q2. You could also build a MKII and run it with the volume knob on your guitar turned down (or an input volume control). This has that bright overdriven fuzz sort of sound you might be looking for.
It does sound to me like you are looking for more of an FET preamp model tone (as has been mentioned). I cannot recommend the SFT (@ 18V of course) enough. Ive built 3 and they all sound great. There are many different FET drives out there but I have only built four of them so someone may have a better overall idea of the whole range. I think the Tweed 57 is going to be the closest for what you are going for as far as the EQ goes but you may want to test different ones through your amp.
You could go and build a low (or full :D) plate voltage tube drive but I feel like a lot of THAT sound comes from non-linearities after the preamp. Especially that fuzziness in my small single ended amps (which is why it is always blasting loud when it sounds so cool).
Two other recommendations I can make are the Les Lius and the Blackstone MOSFET overdrive. The les lius has that lower gain ragged drive sound (it was marketed by Lovepedal as a Tweed amp emulator). It might be a little less gain than you are looking for but it is definitely worth a try IMO if you can find one (it is super simple to build too though). The MOSFET OD has a really interesting sound that sounds similar to preamp overdrive but darker. It was a little more smooth IIRC than what you may be going for but I think a few EQ tweaks could get you there.
I think I've made it more confusing now ;) sorry about that! And sorry for the delay; i've been on vacation and away from a computer these last two weeks.
Oh man, thanks jake. I just read this before having to jet to practice. Did I mention that I use a SFT EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE? AT 9 VOLTS?
I'll have more time to post when i get home and i appreciate everything. Thanks.
Quote from: JakeFuzz on January 03, 2014, 07:48:24 PM
That is definitely the fuzzy drive that comes from a cranked champ. My clone can get me that sound but it is always loud as hell ;D
To me that sound is a little more ragged and bright than what you will get out of a fuzz face and has much less gain than what you would get out of a MKII bender. As Jon mentioned there are a few tweaks you could make to the FF to get you closer to that sound. I would also recommend trying a small (10nF to 1uF) capacitor in parallel with the Q2 emitter resistor (1K). This rolls off low end as the fuzz knob is turned down to prevent the normal dulling you get with the gain below max. A full Ge FF may have too much bottom end and you may want to try a hybrid with a Ge in Q1 and an Si in Q2. You could also build a MKII and run it with the volume knob on your guitar turned down (or an input volume control). This has that bright overdriven fuzz sort of sound you might be looking for.
It does sound to me like you are looking for more of an FET preamp model tone (as has been mentioned). I cannot recommend the SFT (@ 18V of course) enough. Ive built 3 and they all sound great. There are many different FET drives out there but I have only built four of them so someone may have a better overall idea of the whole range. I think the Tweed 57 is going to be the closest for what you are going for as far as the EQ goes but you may want to test different ones through your amp.
You could go and build a low (or full :D) plate voltage tube drive but I feel like a lot of THAT sound comes from non-linearities after the preamp. Especially that fuzziness in my small single ended amps (which is why it is always blasting loud when it sounds so cool).
Two other recommendations I can make are the Les Lius and the Blackstone MOSFET overdrive. The les lius has that lower gain ragged drive sound (it was marketed by Lovepedal as a Tweed amp emulator). It might be a little less gain than you are looking for but it is definitely worth a try IMO if you can find one (it is super simple to build too though). The MOSFET OD has a really interesting sound that sounds similar to preamp overdrive but darker. It was a little more smooth IIRC than what you may be going for but I think a few EQ tweaks could get you there.
I think I've made it more confusing now ;) sorry about that! And sorry for the delay; i've been on vacation and away from a computer these last two weeks.
Thanks again Paul,
After soaking in your post and going off in that direction, I stumbled onto Richard from Monsterpiece who has some interesting things that are very similar to what you're talking about. Very interesting FF builds and so fourth. I went ahead and dropped him a line and eagerly awaiting his response.
I just hope it's nothing along the lines of "You want
that sound?......." followed by, "the only thing to do is to get your hands on a '68 SF Princeton and a '69 Dan Armstrong".
Quote from: jubal81 on January 03, 2014, 08:17:49 PM
I think we've got you worked out, bud. Now all you need is a FET drive, Boost, Mosfet OD and Modded fuzz face together in one enclosure, hehe.
That's how we roll around here. 8)
[/quote/]
Large enclosure, big hammer and some rubber bands to hold it all together
Behold The Ron Wood RW-F Treble Booster: http://www.treblebooster.net/rwf.html
And the one video (one guy, 2 videos) on youtube of it, and it ain't pretty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtmoY-jbPvA
I emailed the builder, see what happens....
Thanks Paul:
fet drive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV5e2S27tL4
scratchy snatch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Ohs_9rFPo
Quote from: switched on on January 04, 2014, 07:43:31 AM
Thanks again Paul,
After soaking in your post and going off in that direction, I stumbled onto Richard from Monsterpiece who has some interesting things that are very similar to what you're talking about. Very interesting FF builds and so fourth. I went ahead and dropped him a line and eagerly awaiting his response.
I just hope it's nothing along the lines of "You want that sound?......." followed by, "the only thing to do is to get your hands on a '68 SF Princeton and a '69 Dan Armstrong".
No worries. It is definitely tough trying to nail a super specific tone like that. In fact I believe that is how a lot of us ended up in this hobby with pedals overflowing into our living spaces ;D I know that's how I got started.
Listening to that live sound I think you could get real close with a tweaked fuzz face. I was thinking more along the recording tone of "Stay With Me" with those last two suggestions. The Monsterpiece stuff is a good bet and I think he will have some good ideas for you. Another one to look at which sort of has that spongey low gain fuzz sound (like you need more suggestions to think about :o) is the Tube Sound Fuzz. Also you should really try that SFT at 18 volts; it opens up the sound and makes a huge difference in the drive character IMO.