I know the SHO was brought up in another post but it now looks like they have added a few more to the list.
http://www.taydaelectronics.com/pcb/diy-guitar-effects.html (http://www.taydaelectronics.com/pcb/diy-guitar-effects.html)
SUPER HARD ON DIY PCB GUITAR EFFECT
RUBY AMP DIY PCB GUITAR EFFECT
DISTORTION PLUS DIY PCB GUITAR EFFECT
ENGLISH MAN AND LES LIUS DIY PCB GUITAR EFFECT
ETERNITY DIY PCB GUITAR EFFECT
PLEXITONE DIY PCB GUITAR EFFECT
BOX OF ROCK DIY PCB GUITAR EFFECT
GUITAR BOOST DIY PCB GUITAR EFFECT
If they are doing these in house it might be worth grabbing one and seeing the quality of their PCB manufacture service.
Documents are up also and they seem ok. They explain the basics pretty well.
http://www.taydakits.com/instructions/eternity (http://www.taydakits.com/instructions/eternity)
If you look at the PCB building page from tayda it has
"If you have an interesting project to share, check our Tayda Revenue Sharing with electronics kits designers."
I think we will start to see a lot more pop up.
But this is bad because I JUST put in my parts order at 4pm CST.
Looks like the PCB's are from here...
http://dhelectroacoustics.com/index.html
I've personally stopped using Tayda all together about 6 months ago. I just can't use their parts in any commercial building I do and I was only using the 3362 trimmers and 1590B enclosures anyways.
I wonder how long until they get contacted about copyright infringement.
The biggest issue I have is I'm worried about the implications it has for us. They have already started selling PCB's of things that are exclusive to DIY projects like runoff grooves.com ruby amp. They don't share schematics with us for any of the projects but it's clearly the same Ruby based on some of the odd values in the BOM.
I will no longer support Tayda in any way or through any links or parts recommendations. It's a sad day for DIY IMO.
Josh
Quote from: gtr2 on January 11, 2014, 02:37:42 AM
Looks like the PCB's are from here...
http://dhelectroacoustics.com/index.html
I've personally stopped using Tayda all together about 6 months ago. I just can't use their parts in any commercial building I do and I was only using the 3362 trimmers and 1590B enclosures anyways.
I wonder how long until they get contacted about copyright infringement.
The biggest issue I have is I'm worried about the implications it has for us. They have already started selling PCB's of things that are exclusive to DIY projects like runoff grooves.com ruby amp. They don't share schematics with us for any of the projects but it's clearly the same Ruby based on some of the odd values in the BOM.
I will no longer support Tayda in any way or through any links or parts recommendations. It's a sad day for DIY IMO.
Josh
Josh, I totally understand where you are coming from and I think they should have went the Mammoth Electronics way and just offered kits from DIY companies with their consent. The fact that they are using the names of the retail projects is shotty at best. It reminds me of http://www.3pdt.com/ and how they have some blaint knockoffs of Brian's layouts.
You actually brought up points that I really didn't think about when I posted the initial post. I was more interested in seeing the quality of their PCB fabrication. I really have no need to buy PCBs from someone like them since their are so many etchable layouts and schematics available for all their presented PCBs. We will have to see what direction they take and if any retail manufactures go after them for name infringement.
Cody
I'm gonna play devil's advocate here, and I don't have a dog in this hunt but did you guys contact runoffgroove or tayda to see if they are legit? It does mention sharing projects
Quote from: wretched on January 10, 2014, 11:46:24 PM
If you look at the PCB building page from tayda it has
"If you have an interesting project to share, check our Tayda Revenue Sharing with electronics kits designers."
I think we will start to see a lot more pop up.
But this is bad because I JUST put in my parts order at 4pm CST.
I'm not flaming or otherwise have malice intent, like I said, I'm just playing deil's advocate.
well. The prices are not knocking my socks off. There is the practical side of this.
I am missing something here, so excuse my ignorance.
There are many sellers of PCBs on the web who have taken schematics found online - Tonebenders, Fuzz Faces, Big Muffs, Tube Screamers etc and created their own layouts and had PCBs manufactured to sell. So what exactly is Tayda doing differently then everyone else?
I feel like I am stepping on a hornet's nest here, so please don't eviscerate me.
Andrew
This is the sort of thing you can expect from Tayda. They know that a lot of their customers are pedal builders and theirs a market for it. 99% of their parts are rubbish quality, id rather source my own. I have ethical issues with how they run their business. Like GTR2 said, the designer of the PCB is blatantly using the effects name. Tayda aren't patrolling the kits. As long as their making $ off them, they don't care. This isn't DIY guitar pedals, build something and learn. This is "get effects cheap". Inline with the rest of Tayda's business model. I've had it with them, my business is slowly moving to others.
Quote from: electrosonic on January 11, 2014, 08:53:01 AM
I am missing something here, so excuse my ignorance.
There are many sellers of PCBs on the web who have taken schematics found online - Tonebenders, Fuzz Faces, Big Muffs, Tube Screamers etc and created their own layouts and had PCBs manufactured to sell. So what exactly is Tayda doing differently then everyone else?
Andrew
There is a moral and a legal aspact to this. Runoffgroove circuits for example reqire a reference to the orginal circuit in the build instructions and the original name of the circuit. As I started to make PCBs for their circuits I got in contact with them and they told me the requirements for making and selling those PCBs. There are further things needed to actually sell a commercial product that contains their circuit.
Tayda neither mentiones runoffgroove in any way, nor do they use any reference on their PCBs to the origination.
I am pretty sure that a kit also qualifies as a commercial product.
Quote from: electrosonic on January 11, 2014, 08:53:01 AM
I am missing something here, so excuse my ignorance.
There are many sellers of PCBs on the web who have taken schematics found online - Tonebenders, Fuzz Faces, Big Muffs, Tube Screamers etc and created their own layouts and had PCBs manufactured to sell. So what exactly is Tayda doing differently then everyone else?
I feel like I am stepping on a hornet's nest here, so please don't eviscerate me.
Andrew
It's ok. It's a valid question.
The DIY effects world is a bit of a self regulating entity. We police ourselves in some fashion. Tayda has clearly already used a DIY project and created a PCB for it. As far as I can tell they don't have permission to use it. What's stopping them from taking other DIY market projects from us?
The question would be. If you created a fun, somewhat original sounding circuit that you released to the DIY market. How would you feel if someone started selling PCB's of your project without your permission? They have no ethics or moral standards that we can keep them accountable for.
I've also spent countless hours helping others with tech help for my projects via email and forums. Is Tayda going to offer any technical help? Heck, they don't even have schematics for the projects. That will be fun to troubleshoot.
Just some things to digest :)
Josh
It's a good day when you can use "eviscerate" in a sentence and sound cool. I agree with all the above, but I think it gets a little squirrely when a fairly high profile market source just tosses this kind of thing out there...lawsuits and legalities be damned... They seem to be taking the approach that it's "easier to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission".
Sounds a little two faced on my part because we constantly toe the line with what we do, but I'd like to think we're a small group of hobbyists that are more concerned with how to tweak stuff to our liking, and learn from it, rather than blatantly copy other's work.
Once money enters the equation it gets a little sideways but I don't see Bean or Barry or JD getting rich anytime soon doing this. What they offer is a place for all of us to pitch in with ideas, support, and knowledge. Tayda does none of that, they just move product. Nothing wrong with that, but it misses the point.
Maybe I'm alone, but I'm not that worked up about it.
It seems that most of the complaints involve things that at worst relate to a cultural difference with the way intellectual property is regarded. The faux paux of calling things by their actual names, has more to do with our copyright law than morality. What's the moral difference between calling something a 'fuzz factory' and a 'lint fabrication establishment'?
It's nice to give diy designers credit, and is certainly something we should all do--but we have a very nuanced understanding of our own hobby. In their view, credit might exist through using the real name. I could see someone in a very hard-scrabble dog eat dog business environment, scratching their head at why it is ok to use a ocd board without licensing, etc, but it's not for a Ruby amp, to attribute Run off groove, but not Mike Fuller, etc.
To be frank, the Asian understanding of intellectual property (minus the lack of attribution), is closer to the DIY ethos than is often acknowledged.
http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/Themes/darkmodern202/images/bbc/bold.gif
As for Tayda part quality--in my experience; hit or miss. At the same time the low cost has allowed me to complete a few circuits, I wouldn't have otherwise done. Shipping has been fair, the orders fulfilled as or more accurately than other joints.
Just my opinion.
I'll add too that along with the DIY community sort of 'policing' itself, we also tend to be able to call back into line members who are stepping on other peoples toes. For example, if I started cloning Dirtbag PCBs from Brian, there'd be a sure and swift reaction from the community, and I'd either have to pull them or some such. There is none of that DIY community power over Tayda because they're based in Asia, likely don't speak english well, and they're a company not an individual. They don't participate in the DIY community.
In the same way, most PCB makers I know of try hard not to step too much on each others toes. Yes, we make cross layouts sometimes, but they're usually of very common effects, like an Op Amp Muff or Fuzz Face. However, when you start taking someone's bread and butter product (Josh's Multiplex for example) and start to sell workalikes or even clones...
That's why people don't like where this is going with Tayda. There's no influence from us as a community. They've already proven themselves to be an 'undercutting clone' business based on their current model, and I suspect that's what's going to arise here. They're going to clone the DIY community's work, and then undercut us.
Jacob
There are some good insights here. I think this is probably not going to be a big money maker for tayda. It may not quite take off and blossom for them. None of our community entrepreneurs are raking it in. One of their big motivations is self-fulfillment and helping others in the diy community. Those are not good business model for a profit margin. And the prices are not really better than our trusted and established small businessmen. So I see no real reason to buy tayda's pcb product.
If they did mic preamps or recording eq pcb's, that might be something I am interested in. I already have good sources for guitar projects.
I agree with many of the sentiments mentioned. I don't have a dog in this fight but if we look at this objectively, we can see that Tayda is mainly playing a "host" to the intellectual property. I imagine that someone at Tayda is not scouring the diy forums for circuits to clone and sell, but rather other end users in the DIY community ARE. These same end users are uploading direct copies of circuits from ROG and others, with the notion of getting some Tayda store credits when each PCB sells due to the business model Tayda offers them. This is not unlike a filesharing site (with upload/download credits) or the whole Napster music debacle years ago.
I'm not insisting this is right and just, I am just stating that Tayda is functioning in this capacity as a "host" for this activity...and of course making money in the process. To put it in perspective, one could say the same thing about OSH Park. If someone uploads a direct clone of a Ruby Amp (or whatever) and shares it etc...OSH Park is then facilitating the intellectual property violation and making money in the process just like Tayda. Should we boycott OSH Park because there are clones of circuits on there for sale? Probably not. Can Tayda/OSH Park be held liable?...it depends if the circuit itself is copyrighted, and if the owner has enough time/funds/legal counsel to press the issue. The majority of commercial pedal circuits are not copyrighted themselves, but the layouts may be.
The ethics of cloning circuits is a unique and dynamic thing as most would not think twice about seeing a Tubescreamer clone, or a Univibe clone, or a BMP clone... but if it is a ROG clone (or insert name of treasured circuit here) everybody is suddenly up in arms about it. It is explicitly stated in ROG's docs and site that any PCBs for sale using their IP must be cleared from them, so yes...ripping off them is douchebag thing to do. But hardly no one feels bad about cloning an 808 or a BMP.
So who is to blame? The user who uploaded the file? Tayda? Perhaps both? I don't think it is possible for Tayda or OSH Park (or Seeed...etc.) to verify every project uploaded and ensure it is not a direct rip off or try to investigate the origins of the circuit. They may be completely oblivious to this, or not, or maybe just don't care. The culture of sharing IP in Asia is much different than the rest of the world as previously mentioned. I have a feeling that they aren't trying to make a killing on this, but rather trying to jump on the "open source" bandwagon to attract new customers. We can see many other companies doing this (Itead, OSHpark, so on) and it is becoming a popular thing to do.
It's not in good taste for sure, but it brings up the age old dilemma of ethics of cloning circuits, what part of a circuit is copyrighted, and not being a total douchebag. 8) I think we must look at the entire picture rather than just saying "F*&k Tayda." Maybe it should be "F*&k the d-bag who uploaded the file." Just my 2c.
Is OSHPark offering copies of user's layouts like this?
Yes, OSH park has a "share" ability where a user can allow his project to be ordered by anyone. They do not give store credits however for sharing.
I can see that the sellers here offer customer support - people are helped to troubleshoot non-working builds. Should be interesting when someone asks for help to troubleshoot a tayda build.
Andrew.
I don't see a problem with this at all.
Looks like Tayda is not trying to mix words....
"Box of Rock" and "Ruby Amp" PCBs :o
Wouldn't the use of these "names" constitute an issue?
OK I guess I'll weigh in now. I both agree and disagree with the whole Tayda making boards thing.
We all should have seen this coming. I say "we" lightly because I've only been building for about a year and modding for 2. Tayda knows that most of their clients are pedal builders and about a month or two ago (maybe longer) they started asking for people to submit projects they use the parts on. I personally didn't submit anything because I didn't want them to take my design. Plus I work a lot with vero/strip board and didn't think they wanted that. Also they are in the market to make money. They don't care what product they put as long as it sells (take a look at their ceramic capacitors for example). That's why most of the components they sell are of the fecal persuasion. The boards are probably going to fall into the crap category as well. The one up that we have on them (not including quality) is the community aspect. I've said it before but I don't know how many times I have turned to this forum, specifically, for tech help. If there is ever an issue whit a MB build or any other pedal related thing there are 30 or 40 people that know the answer and are always willing to help. They will be far from that kind of support. for example: I got an order from them over the weekend and there were 4 small issues with it, I have yet to hear back from them. I could post a tech question on this forum and have 10 answers and things to try in 20 min. So, Them making boards has no affect on me because i personally wouldn't order one from them. I can understand they want to make money but that's all they care about. They don't have a passion for it like us.
Ho boy! ;D
It is not illegal (in the US, Canada, and most "western" countries) to sell clone circuit boards or kits of currently produced products (assuming there is no patent). If that were the case, BYOC and GGG would have been sued into oblivion years ago. Ibanez, EHX, ProCo, and Boss all have the cash and experience to break out the lawsuit hammer at will. And yet they don't, even though said clone kits use the original trademarked name and company identifiers.
And that's because it is not illegal. Whether it's a giant company like Roland or a tiny non-profit collective like runoffgroove, saying "please don't clone this" has no legal standing whatsoever. Even with a sticker on the back begging you not to, there is no legal recourse. ;D
(http://i.imgur.com/8I1Auz5.jpg)
Further, explaining what the clone circuit actually is helps to lessen any chance of confusion to a potential customer. By stating something is a clone of some other thing, you are clearly demonstrating that it is not the original (but merely a copy). Same thing as drug-store brand ibuprofen says "Compare to Motrin" on the label.
Where people run into trouble is when they try to sell you, for example, a pedal and they claim it is a Lovepedal brand product, when in fact it was made in a factory in China by Thanks,Ken! Industries and it just looks like an original. That's called counterfeiting, and it is fraud to the consumer and trademark infringement (as well as other damages) with regards to the original producer.
If selling clone boards for money is bad, I hate to think what that makes me. I've sold a couple thousand clone circuit boards, almost all for a profit.
Good explanation Culturejam. I started a thread a few weeks ago asking something along the lines of, as far as making clone pcbs goes, whats acceptable and whats not? Most people said as long as you modify the circuit its all fine. Personally I don't think that even matters. Its a free for all. People are cloning whatever they like. This isnt Microsoft piracy. Its a schematic...
Theres one thing about these new Tayda kits that has gotten my back up though...well those last 2 sentences that Flanagan ended with said it all:
Quote from: flanagan0718 on January 14, 2014, 08:54:41 PM
I can understand they want to make money but that's all they care about. They don't have a passion for it like us.
Quote from: chromesphere on January 14, 2014, 10:24:21 PM
This isnt Microsoft piracy. Its a schematic...
One thing I've tried, and failed, to get across to people over the last few years is this:
Each analog* pedal that ships out to customers includes a perfect and easily readable diagram of the underlying circuit. It's impossible, in fact, to send the pedal without sending a plainly laid out schematic in the form of the PCB and components. Navigating the process in reverse in no less ethical than doing it from schematic drawing > finished pedal. At least not to me.
You don't want people cloning your pedal? Don't sell it to anybody or otherwise distribute it. Keep it to yourself.
You don't want people using your schematic drawing? Don't post it on the internet. Keep it to yourself. If you post it, people will use it.
Seems simple.
* I say analog here as a qualifier because digital stuff is still largely outside the realm of casual reverse engineers. Quote from: chromesphereTheres one thing about these new Tayda kits that has gotten my back up though...well those last 2 sentences that Flanagan ended with said it all:
Quote from: flanagan0718 on January 14, 2014, 08:54:41 PM
I can understand they want to make money but that's all they care about. They don't have a passion for it like us.
So what? :D You don't need to drink the Koolaid to serve it out to others. They stock more and more pedal parts because we keep asking them to, not because it gives them warm and fuzzy feelings. That's a bad reason to start a business. You should be in business to make money.
My focus was more on the names.
Box of Rock especially. Wouldn't that tend to mislead someone to think it is potentially a Zvex product?
Quote from: culturejam on January 14, 2014, 10:40:39 PM
Quote from: chromesphere on January 14, 2014, 10:24:21 PM
This isnt Microsoft piracy. Its a schematic...
One thing I've tried, and failed, to get across to people over the last few years is this:
Each analog* pedal that ships out to customers includes a perfect and easily readable diagram of the underlying circuit. It's impossible, in fact, to send the pedal without sending a plainly laid out schematic in the form of the PCB and components. Navigating the process in reverse in no less ethical than doing it from schematic drawing > finished pedal. At least not to me.
You don't want people cloning your pedal? Don't sell it to anybody or otherwise distribute it. Keep it to yourself.
You don't want people using your schematic drawing? Don't post it on the internet. Keep it to yourself. If you post it, people will use it.
Seems simple.
* I say analog here as a qualifier because digital stuff is still largely outside the realm of casual reverse engineers.
Quote from: chromesphereTheres one thing about these new Tayda kits that has gotten my back up though...well those last 2 sentences that Flanagan ended with said it all:
Quote from: flanagan0718 on January 14, 2014, 08:54:41 PM
I can understand they want to make money but that's all they care about. They don't have a passion for it like us.
So what? :D You don't need to drink the Koolaid to serve it out to others. They stock more and more pedal parts because we keep asking them to, not because it gives them warm and fuzzy feelings. That's a bad reason to start a business. You should be in business to make money.
I personally think you should be in business for both reasons. If your not, then its time to find a new job :D But anyway, this is slightly off topic.
By using a company's names they are probably committing trademark infringement. If they do not change the names of the pcb's, they definitely are inviting trouble. They will be warned. Hopefully they will change it. Since Tayda now has some sort of distribution in the USA the warnings will have some teeth. If they do change the names, there is not much to dislike, except the potential for troubleshooting problems and not knowing the provenance of the layout.
It is nice to have some faith in the person responsible for it.
Quote from: atreidesheir on January 15, 2014, 12:12:54 AM
It is nice to have some faith in the person responsible for it.
Which in this case is not actually tayda but DH Electronic acoustics (its written in the product description): http://dhelectroacoustics.com/
Id say there is no support, unless of course the guy in this picture can speak English? :) http://dhelectroacoustics.com/contact-us.html
Regarding using names of existing products, it's not a problem to describe the clone product by comparing it to the original.
However, it might be a problem to have the trademarked name actually on the clone PCB silkscreen. That could indeed cause customer confusion. So yeah, that's not cool. But the rest of it is what you see in every other industry on the planet.
Quote from: culturejam on January 15, 2014, 01:13:38 AM
Regarding using names of existing products, it's not a problem to describe the clone product by comparing it to the original.
However, it might be a problem to have the trademarked name actually on the clone PCB silkscreen. That could indeed cause customer confusion. So yeah, that's not cool. But the rest of it is what you see in every other industry on the planet.
Not to mention using Zach's copyrighted descriptions of the circuits....
Couple of things worth mentioning...
While there isn't anything protecting the schematic or overall design - if you blatantly ripoff the PCB layout (it is "artwork" and therefore can be protected) then you have your arse handed to you in court. if I took a BMP schematic and used Brian's Mudbunny design to lay it out in Eagle and started selling pcb's - I'd fully expect him to show up at my house, Bat AND subpoena in hand.
Side note - Big Pharma gets drugs approved every so often for what used to be "off label" use so they can extend their exclusiveness. They also "reformulate" by adding inert ingredients and market them as new/improved products that way as well. Time release, capsule vs tablet, all these things can be used to protect the drug, cause there's not exactly any money in the cure.
Hi all, this in my first post on this forum. I have not yet built a pedal, but have been into electronics and RC models most of my life. I am also an aircraft mechanic. I was not aware that tayda has just started making PCB's, or of any of this discusson. I have just ordered a multiplex off tayda and a pork barrel off madbean, with all the components from tayda. (apart from the BBD...) There were discussions like this a few years ago on the RC forums, mainly RC Groups, about clone and cheap knock off models and electronics. The King of this part of the business is a HK based distributor called Hobbyking. It was started by an Australian, who I assume, Is now filthy rich. There was a lot of backlash at first, and people swearing they would not touch them, but after a few years they seem to be accepted. It is hard to go to a club now and find anything except the largest and most expensive model's which do not contain some kind of HK product. They do things like clone a $250 speed controller called a YGE and sell it for $50 and call it a YEP. Or clone a $300 gyro unit called a Vbar, sell it for $50 and call it a FuBar. In both these cases even the OEM software works. They make complete foam models that are half or a third the price than a similar name brand product brought locally. They also sell a lot of their own brand stuff that is equivalent to items that cost 10x price when brought locally. I guess the point is that there is not much we can do as a group to affect the sales of these super low cost HK suppliers, especially if a lot of customers are like myself and are not as aware of the backstory to how the PCB came to be. I guess Im not wanting to have much of an opinion either way, just trying to say that there is probably not a whole lot that can be done about it, and there are a lot of small niche markets going this way.
The Ruby is now called "mini guitar amp"
Quote from: atreidesheir on February 02, 2014, 05:07:29 PM
The Ruby is now called "mini guitar amp"
Im surprised they are still using "Box of Rock!" ::)
Prehaps they monitor these forums? Comes back to the point before that culturejam made "you don't have to know about coolaide to sell it". I disagree.
PS. Welcome to the forum herostratus. :D
Actually cj posted "You don't need to drink the Koolaid to serve it out to others."
Personally I don`t get why people are getting their knickers in a twist about this, if you don`t like it don`t buy it, simples. How many people in the diy community started out by buying a kit, building it, getting more interested and kicking on from there? Quite a few would be my guess. What tayda actually call their kits is irrelevant, if it breaches copyright then it`s up to the copyright owner to take action. I doubt calling their kit box of rock etc is going to lead to many, if any, people, to believe the are buying a genuine zvex product, especially as there is no mention of zvex anywhere in their description.
Yeah, selling pcb`s of circuits from the diy community aint cool, but as CJ already said, if you post it on the internet then for people to use then, unless you patent it, you don`t really have much say in how it is used. After all Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Quote from: Dexxyy on April 02, 2014, 09:39:57 AM
Yeah, selling pcb`s of circuits from the diy community aint cool, but as CJ already said, if you post it on the internet then for people to use then, unless you patent it, you don`t really have much say in how it is used. After all Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
You don't have to patent it, you can release it under a creative commons license, it is a common practice with software and can be done with circuits too (I think the only person I've seen doing this is RobA)
Quote from: micromegas on April 02, 2014, 10:34:29 AM
Quote from: Dexxyy on April 02, 2014, 09:39:57 AM
Yeah, selling pcb`s of circuits from the diy community aint cool, but as CJ already said, if you post it on the internet then for people to use then, unless you patent it, you don`t really have much say in how it is used. After all Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
You don't have to patent it, you can release it under a creative commons license, it is a common practice with software and can be done with circuits too (I think the only person I've seen doing this is RobA)
I'm pretty sure Jon (midwayfair) has released under a CC license too.
Comparing Software vs Electrical circuits is comparing potatoes to apples. They enjoy entirely different legal protections.
Again - you can't control the circuit. Just the design. Tons of money has been wasted and lost on this in the legal world. Creative commons licensing, just like copyright, only protects the artwork and pcb, even your eagle files could be protected under certain circumstances. It doesn't protect the circuit. I can redraw Jon's Snow Day, layout my own PCB, and called it Hump Day, and sell a million of them without giving Jon a single ounce of credit, or money. There is absolutely NOTHING Jon could do. He could try, but he'd waste money, and I could then hit him up for my own damages and losses. Now if I took Jon's boards, or etching artwork, and made pedals and sold them, THEN Jon's CC license comes into play. If I called it a Snow Day, there's even more he could do.
Derivative works do not (No matter how much you want them to)legally apply to circuits either. What you're suggesting would allow the basic circuits for wiring in your home to protected, and the law was designed to be smarter than that. You can protect the way the switch is designed, and through that design how the switch functions. But you can't protect a power to a switch that turns on a light design. Software protections are entirely different. So you can have a software patent on a progress bar....
But again - You can't protect the circuit. Before anyone gets smart, yes Mask laws apply, and they cover... the design. Processors, IC's etc, are considered devices, not circuits, and are therefore protected under an entirely different set of rules. Just like an actual Snow Day would be.
This isn't meant to discourage anyone from posting their stuff. There's no ill intent towards Jon either. I love his stuff and wouldn't dream of copying it. And on the *odd* chance I could improve on his design. I'd tell Jon.
Quote from: Clayford on April 02, 2014, 02:30:10 PMThere is absolutely NOTHING Jon could do.
Pfttt, this isn't true at all. I can do all of the following:
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/8d247e3bcca18fffebcd31a351c5d300/tumblr_mg4az0cbv81qz8x31o1_400.gif)
And
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/raining_david_tennant_nosedrip.gif)
And
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/MattInfernus/captain_kirk_khan_william_shatner.jpg)
Or bad mouth the copier on the forums, because complaining on the interwebs is at least as effective as the rhythm method.
Quote from: midwayfair on April 02, 2014, 02:50:21 PM
Quote from: Clayford on April 02, 2014, 02:30:10 PMThere is absolutely NOTHING Jon could do.
Pfttt, this isn't true at all. I can do all of the following:
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/8d247e3bcca18fffebcd31a351c5d300/tumblr_mg4az0cbv81qz8x31o1_400.gif)
And
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/raining_david_tennant_nosedrip.gif)
And
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/MattInfernus/captain_kirk_khan_william_shatner.jpg)
Or bad mouth the copier on the forums, because complaining on the interwebs is at least as effective as the rhythm method.
Jon,
I freaking LOVE you.
Quote from: midwayfair on April 02, 2014, 02:50:21 PM
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/MattInfernus/captain_kirk_khan_william_shatner.jpg)
KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-pyright! 8)
Love it!
This thread just took awesome to the final frontier...and beyond!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
lmao
This thread just took awesome to the final frontier...and beyond!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not to derail the fun, but my point in using a CC license isn't to try and say don't use this. It's the exact opposite really. So why put the CC license on it at all then? It's really just a request and a nudge to say please do the same. The Arduino hardware is usually released using an Open Hardware license (CC I think), and that is great example of a thriving community and ecosystem with multiple businesses being quite successful and employing a pretty good number of people. That's really the point of using the CC license for me.
Quote from: RobA on April 02, 2014, 04:29:12 PM
Not to derail the fun, but my point in using a CC license isn't to try and say don't use this. It's the exact opposite really. So why put the CC license on it at all then? It's really just a request and a nudge to say please do the same. The Arduino hardware is usually released using an Open Hardware license (CC I think), and that is great example of a thriving community and ecosystem with multiple businesses being quite successful and employing a pretty good number of people. That's really the point of using the CC license for me.
+1 on this.
In my opinion, one of the points of using CCs is to let knowdlege expand & evolve freely and guarantee global access to it whether or not there's always going to be people who would want to jeopardize this with ignoble practices.
Quote from: RobA on April 02, 2014, 04:29:12 PM
Not to derail the fun, but my point in using a CC license isn't to try and say don't use this. It's the exact opposite really.
Same here. I actually think that expanding the awareness of creative commons and what that means expands respect of copyright in general but also helps people think about where the true value of things lies.
Or maybe I'm just a naive idiot. (It's been suggested in the past.)
Quote from: micromegas on April 02, 2014, 06:36:38 PM
[...]
In my opinion, one of the points of using CCs is to let knowdlege expand & evolve freely and guarantee global access to it whether or not there's always going to be people who would want to jeopardize this with ignoble practices.
Quote from: midwayfair on April 02, 2014, 06:39:08 PM
[...]
Same here. I actually think that expanding the awareness of creative commons and what that means expands respect of copyright in general but also helps people think about where the true value of things lies.
Or maybe I'm just a naive idiot. (It's been suggested in the past.)
Exactly on both of these comments. And, there's nothing bad about being a naive idiot. The world wouldn't get anywhere without them. I'm very far from being naive. I'm really pretty jaded, but I'm also a stubborn idiot and I think open is the way to do things. The point about being accessible globally is important to me too.
This copyright debate tends to come up quite a bit as schematics are generally a free for all. As far as I'm concerned that's a good thing, because if it wasn't I would still be debugging my npn booster.
I think its safe to say that in the DIY world multiple minds make faster progress then sitting in the dark on your own. I don't know if the hate towards Tayda has anything to do with copyright though, or the circuits they are using (the same circuits that have been re-fabbed a million times over), nor do I think they care. It's a way to make some $$. It's probably more to do with their business practices that tends to p1ss people off around here. Profiting off a community project. No support. yadda yadda. All the stuff said in the last 3 pages.
Honestly I don't really care much for what Tayda does. At the end of the day you make your own bed.