madbeanpedals::forum

General => Open Discussion => Topic started by: eldanko on January 20, 2014, 08:57:41 PM

Title: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: eldanko on January 20, 2014, 08:57:41 PM
I wrote a blog post today about how to shop for pedals from independent builders. Hoping I didn't ruffle any feathers by doing so, but I do feel like most of the ideas lean towards a "substance over hype" mentality.

Here's a link: http://www.danekinser.com/?p=629

Would love to hear if there are things that you guys think should be added/subtracted.

Edit: Looks like our own Cortexurizer has already seen my post on Facebook and befriended me. I love this community.  ;D
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: electrosonic on January 20, 2014, 09:08:54 PM
At first I thought you wrote "defriended"

Andrew
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: bcalla on January 20, 2014, 09:15:11 PM
I'm just relived that you didn't use one of my pedals for the "NOT THAT" photo.   :o
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: pickdropper on January 20, 2014, 09:18:41 PM
I didn't find anything in there that was particularly offensive.  I highly doubt any Boutique manufacturer is going to raise their hand and say "I believe in lousy wiring and you've offended me."  Then again, I've been wrong about things like that before.

I am curious how many retailers will take the time to open up a pedal, take a photo and send it to you.  That would certainly be great customer service, however.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: jimilee on January 20, 2014, 09:24:55 PM
Cool blog Dane! How's the music biz treating you?
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: eldanko on January 20, 2014, 09:35:03 PM
Quote from: pickdropper on January 20, 2014, 09:18:41 PM
I didn't find anything in there that was particularly offensive.  I highly doubt any Boutique manufacturer is going to raise their hand and say "I believe in lousy wiring and you've offended me."  Then again, I've been wrong about things like that before.

I am curious how many retailers will take the time to open up a pedal, take a photo and send it to you.  That would certainly be great customer service, however.

I appreciate you looking it over! The idea of asking for the gut shot is more geared towards people buying straight from a builder. My hope - and this is where I'm probably wrong - is that pedals being sold by retailers have achieved a level of quality where a gut shot is no longer necessary.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: eldanko on January 20, 2014, 09:36:01 PM
Quote from: jimilee on January 20, 2014, 09:24:55 PM
Cool blog Dane! How's the music biz treating you?

Hey thanks for asking! It's funny... I probably had 5 total days off in December... now I've got 5 total dates on in January! Definitely dead season at the moment. Guess I have no excuse to not be building more pedals, right?
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: jimilee on January 20, 2014, 09:37:31 PM

Quote from: eldanko on January 20, 2014, 09:36:01 PM
Quote from: jimilee on January 20, 2014, 09:24:55 PM
Cool blog Dane! How's the music biz treating you?

Hey thanks for asking! It's funny... I probably had 5 total days off in December... now I've got 5 total dates on in January! Definitely dead season at the moment. Guess I have no excuse to not be building more pedals, right?
Probably get you through and keep your piece of mind. :-D
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: Ettore_M on January 20, 2014, 09:45:43 PM
Nice blog, Dane! It was a really nice read!  :)
It's not offensive at all!
I enjoyed it and it made me understand even better how important is the build quality and end-product reliability of a pedal we build for other people. That's for me too. I try to do my best every time I build something. I admit that I don't use the best quality parts as, at the moment, they are too expensive for me. But I know they're crucial for the reliability of the product.
And as you said, it's a learning process. If someone that has a build from my too-noob building days had a complaint for the guts, I wouldn't think a moment to make it from the start. No expense for the customer too.  ;)
And I really respect the builders that behave that way too.  :)

Hector
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: juansolo on January 20, 2014, 09:51:17 PM
My before and after pics are better :) Scary that It was brought to my attention at the weekend that I've been building pedals now for five years  :o

(http://www.juansolo.demon.co.uk/misc/progress.jpg)

Nothing wrong with that blog at all.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: Cortexturizer on January 20, 2014, 10:00:46 PM
Fantastic blog post, and a very useful one at that! I'll be sure to share with some friends that are not that technologically savvy but love pedals and are not that scared of buying DIY stuff. I have to steal some of the company's time tomorrow and run through your blog some more  ;D
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: pickdropper on January 20, 2014, 10:07:40 PM
Quote from: eldanko on January 20, 2014, 09:35:03 PM
Quote from: pickdropper on January 20, 2014, 09:18:41 PM
I didn't find anything in there that was particularly offensive.  I highly doubt any Boutique manufacturer is going to raise their hand and say "I believe in lousy wiring and you've offended me."  Then again, I've been wrong about things like that before.

I am curious how many retailers will take the time to open up a pedal, take a photo and send it to you.  That would certainly be great customer service, however.

I appreciate you looking it over! The idea of asking for the gut shot is more geared towards people buying straight from a builder. My hope - and this is where I'm probably wrong - is that pedals being sold by retailers have achieved a level of quality where a gut shot is no longer necessary.

No problem, Dane.  It was a good read.

There are some known boutique builders that have some fairly lousy wiring and have made it to retail.  It must not be causing too many problems, I guess.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: neve1272 on January 20, 2014, 10:16:46 PM
was a great blog post
sure am glade my builds dont look like spaghetti.....more like birds nest
juansolo i always like  looking at your builds
i start off trying to do neat build. lately end up getting frustrated half way and just cram it in
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: atreidesheir on January 20, 2014, 10:23:18 PM
It was a good source of info for less technical minded pedal buyers.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: juansolo on January 20, 2014, 10:33:28 PM
I'm actually putting off posting up a recent build as it looks more like the one on the left than the one on the right. It's just one of those layouts that makes it impossible to do neatly. Then I made the cables too long because I expected for some of the pot wiring to be wrong (long story), and it wasn't this time... Pretty it ain't. When the knobs turn up it'll get posted for completeness. But its not one I'm particularly proud of the insides of. I should probably goop it...
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: GermanCdn on January 20, 2014, 10:35:57 PM
Quote from: juansolo on January 20, 2014, 10:33:28 PM
I'm actually putting off posting up a recent build as it looks more like the one on the left than the one on the right. It's just one of those layouts that makes it impossible to do neatly. Then I made the cables too long because I expected for some of the pot wiring to be wrong (long story), and it wasn't this time... Pretty it ain't. When the knobs turn up it'll get posted for completeness. But its not one I'm particularly proud of the insides of.

Yeah, I just finished one with a similar issue, crammed a couple of different circuits, a vero for grounding, power, and CLRs, a flipper switch, and no 3PDT pcbs....it sounds great, but she ain't gonna win on looks.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: lars on January 21, 2014, 12:26:50 AM
Great blog with practical guidance for buying "boutique" pedals. Now if somebody could just convince Ebay sellers that just because a pedal is vintage, doesn't mean it's the best guitar effect ever made.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: eldanko on January 21, 2014, 01:40:41 AM
Thanks for the kind words guys. I must have struck a nerve with this one, as it's gotten quite a bit more attention than my usual posts. Nevertheless, it's all been positive responses so far, so hopefully this will help some people out here and there. It just kills me to see people buying cheap clone-y junk when there's so many talented people here at MBP alone (not to mention FSB, DIYSB, BYOC, and all of the other communities out there) doing absolutely fantastic work.

Juansolo - I'm half tempted to add your picture to the article. I was cracking up looking at it. I don't even have pictures of my first few builds (which were BYOC kits), and I guarantee that they're horrendous.

Quote from: juansolo on January 20, 2014, 10:33:28 PM
I'm actually putting off posting up a recent build as it looks more like the one on the left than the one on the right. It's just one of those layouts that makes it impossible to do neatly. Then I made the cables too long because I expected for some of the pot wiring to be wrong (long story), and it wasn't this time... Pretty it ain't. When the knobs turn up it'll get posted for completeness. But its not one I'm particularly proud of the insides of. I should probably goop it...

The point in the article about "messy wiring" was one where I tried to tread lightly. Simply put, some builds just aren't set up for clean wiring. My univibe project has a great deal of spaghetti inside due to the way that it's laid out, but it's uber-reliable and quiet as a mouse. Still, I do feel like you can generally tell by looking whether or not the wiring layout has been thought out carefully or just mashed together.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: chromesphere on January 21, 2014, 03:00:18 AM
Nice post Dane, it was a good read. 

The return policy point is a good one. I was randomly sniffing around the internet a few years back when I came across a thread. Someone was saying that they bought a fuzz clone and it died.  About 10 people followed with comments along the lines of "that's what you get for buying a clone".  I was really disappointed that the gear-heads thought us DIY types were just after a quick buck, selling amateur half-rate unreliable gear.  I was selling a few pedals at that time and instantly added a return policy to my ebay listing.  I guess I realised at that point, im not just representing myself, im representing the greater diy community.

I encourage anyone else that sells pedals to do that same.  We need to show the gear lovers out there how awesome we are at building this stuff, and how we will stand by it.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: blackedition on January 21, 2014, 03:20:21 AM
Quote from: juansolo on January 20, 2014, 09:51:17 PM
My before and after pics are better :) Scary that It was brought to my attention at the weekend that I've been building pedals now for five years  :o

(http://www.juansolo.demon.co.uk/misc/progress.jpg)

Nothing wrong with that blog at all.

Wow, that's pretty darn clean!  Did you use stranded wire or solid wire?  I'm curious because it looks like those wires are holding shape well.

Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: GrindCustoms on January 21, 2014, 03:22:33 AM
Quote from: blackedition on January 21, 2014, 03:20:21 AM
Quote from: juansolo on January 20, 2014, 09:51:17 PM
My before and after pics are better :) Scary that It was brought to my attention at the weekend that I've been building pedals now for five years  :o

(http://www.juansolo.demon.co.uk/misc/progress.jpg)

Nothing wrong with that blog at all.

Wow, that's pretty darn clean!  Did you use stranded wire or solid wire?  I'm curious because it looks like those wires are holding shape well.

Green Solid Core Copper Wire of Awesomeness (it asks for capitals) Been using that stuff for the past few months... will never go back, ever.

And now, let's go read that blog, looks interesting! 8)
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: alanp on January 21, 2014, 04:11:41 AM
Bloody lucky for me you didn't say anything about shoddy graphics on the outside ;) Interesting read.

Juan, I really, really want to see this mystery build of yours now!
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: GrindCustoms on January 21, 2014, 04:33:44 AM
Would you mind if i share that on my facebook page?

You did a great job and i think that it's a great read for anyone that is in the pedal market as a buyer or runs a small buisness from it.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: eldanko on January 21, 2014, 04:34:30 AM
Quote from: GrindCustoms on January 21, 2014, 04:33:44 AM
Would you mind if i share that on my facebook page?

You did a great job and i think that it's a great read for anyone that is in the pedal market as a buyer or runs a small buisness from it.

By all means, go ahead! The fine folks at Caroline Guitar Company already did the same thing.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: juansolo on January 21, 2014, 08:45:35 AM
Quote from: eldanko on January 21, 2014, 01:40:41 AMJuansolo - I'm half tempted to add your picture to the article. I was cracking up looking at it. I don't even have pictures of my first few builds (which were BYOC kits), and I guarantee that they're horrendous.

By all means :) My first builds were BYOCs also, but were super neat (not sure how I pulled that). I think that was build number 3 or 4 and it was my first scratch build on vero. A Valvecaster and LPB on one board. Worked really well, looked utterly horrendous.

Quote from: GrindCustoms on January 21, 2014, 03:22:33 AMGreen Solid Core Copper Wire of Awesomeness (it asks for capitals) Been using that stuff for the past few months... will never go back, ever.

We might, they don't make it any more and I've only got 300m left.

Saying that, I think we might have found another place with some left.

Quote from: alanp on January 21, 2014, 04:11:41 AM
Juan, I really, really want to see this mystery build of yours now!

Oh it's coming. Just waiting for the knobs to turn up and it'll be up there.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: Cortexturizer on January 21, 2014, 09:33:52 AM
Solid core wire is all I use. If I as much as look at stranded wire I get uber furious. It's awesome that even some companies have embraced your blog post Dane, Caroline Guitar is one of my favorite companies out there, Philippe is such a cool dude.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: juansolo on January 21, 2014, 09:39:19 AM
Quote from: eldanko on January 21, 2014, 04:34:30 AM
Quote from: GrindCustoms on January 21, 2014, 04:33:44 AM
Would you mind if i share that on my facebook page?

You did a great job and i think that it's a great read for anyone that is in the pedal market as a buyer or runs a small buisness from it.

By all means, go ahead! The fine folks at Caroline Guitar Company already did the same thing.

I've done the same  8)
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: raulduke on January 21, 2014, 09:43:05 AM
Good post and I agree 100%

There is always room for improvement too (even for the big boutique guys). I'm always trying to get my builds neater and neater.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: micromegas on January 21, 2014, 11:22:14 AM
I already share this as GreenHouseRoy posted the article on facebook.

Really good article, I've been talking about the same thing with a friend of mine that has a few of pedals built by me and also bought some in the forums.


I enjoyed "the amp journey" posts a lot too!
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: GrindCustoms on January 21, 2014, 07:11:15 PM
Juan, i can get some of the same stuff from www.bulkwire.com and they carry lots of other high quality wire, their price is just a tad over what you where getting it for.

In my shop re-strock process that i'm in at the moment, i was planning on getting couple Ks meters of it.... so i'm done for a while.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: juansolo on January 21, 2014, 09:27:48 PM
That's good to know.  8) We've got about 300m left which will last us a year or so no probs.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: micromegas on January 21, 2014, 09:47:11 PM
Any clue about were can I find that kind of wire in Europe? Shipping costs from bulkwire are rather expensive.... and the solid core wire I got from Banzai isn't very good...

It would be awesome to find some teflon cable too (solid or stranded)
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: juansolo on January 21, 2014, 10:01:34 PM
You'll have to go hunting. The brand was Eagle and it's out of production but some places still have stock. It .6mm solid core IIRC (I'm not where the spools are at the moment).
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: micromegas on January 21, 2014, 10:34:12 PM
Quote from: juansolo on January 21, 2014, 10:01:34 PM
You'll have to go hunting. The brand was Eagle and it's out of production but some places still have stock. It .6mm solid core IIRC (I'm not where the spools are at the moment).

Thanks! I'll check google :)
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: selfdestroyer on January 21, 2014, 11:54:25 PM
Quote from: juansolo on January 21, 2014, 10:01:34 PM
You'll have to go hunting. The brand was Eagle and it's out of production but some places still have stock. It .6mm solid core IIRC (I'm not where the spools are at the moment).

So thats 22 AWG Solid Core right?
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: AntKnee on January 22, 2014, 04:28:31 PM
Quote from: lars on January 21, 2014, 12:26:50 AM
Great blog with practical guidance for buying "boutique" pedals. Now if somebody could just convince Ebay sellers that just because a pedal is vintage, doesn't mean it's the best guitar effect ever made.

Amen to that!
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: juansolo on January 23, 2014, 09:35:32 AM
Quote from: selfdestroyer on January 21, 2014, 11:54:25 PM
Quote from: juansolo on January 21, 2014, 10:01:34 PM
You'll have to go hunting. The brand was Eagle and it's out of production but some places still have stock. It .6mm solid core IIRC (I'm not where the spools are at the moment).

So thats 22 AWG Solid Core right?

Pretty sure. I'll check today and get back to you.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: juansolo on January 23, 2014, 04:57:26 PM
It's not made any more but it was Eagle Equipment Wire 0.6mm (22awg). It came in multi-colours ( green is best ;) ) and on a 100m roll. The stuff from Rapid is nowhere near as good as it breaks really easily.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: selfdestroyer on January 23, 2014, 06:03:52 PM
Quote from: juansolo on January 23, 2014, 04:57:26 PM
It's not made any more but it was Eagle Equipment Wire 0.6mm (22awg). It came in multi-colours ( green is best ;) ) and on a 100m roll. The stuff from Rapid is nowhere near as good as it breaks really easily.

Is it PVC Insulation or something different? Sorry for all the questions. I'm just having problems finding spec sheets on any Eagle wire.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: juansolo on January 23, 2014, 06:58:16 PM
The insulation on the Eagle stuff stands temperature better and the solid core itself doesn't break anywhere near as easily. The Rapid stuff seemed really brittle.

We found some recently online (blue) so there are odd people with remnants of stock kicking about. But it looks like it's drying up. You used to easily be able to get it on eBay for example.

This *could* be something similar (though it has a tinned core unlike the Eagle stuff). But as we've never used it, we can't vouch for it. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100m-Reel-1-0-6mm-22-AWG-Solid-Core-Equipment-Wire-11-Colours-Hook-up-/230859863086?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&var=&hash=item35c051f42e
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: selfdestroyer on January 23, 2014, 07:08:37 PM
Quote from: juansolo on January 23, 2014, 06:58:16 PM
The insulation on the Eagle stuff stands temperature better and the solid core itself doesn't break anywhere near as easily. The Rapid stuff seemed really brittle.

We found some recently online (blue) so there are odd people with remnants of stock kicking about. But it looks like it's drying up. You used to easily be able to get it on eBay for example.

This *could* be something similar (though it has a tinned core unlike the Eagle stuff). But as we've never used it, we can't vouch for it. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100m-Reel-1-0-6mm-22-AWG-Solid-Core-Equipment-Wire-11-Colours-Hook-up-/230859863086?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&var=&hash=item35c051f42e

Thanks, I just want to try something different and you seems to really like it so that speaks volumes to me.
Title: Re: Hope I'm not ruffling feathers...
Post by: juansolo on January 23, 2014, 07:10:52 PM
Luckily last time we got some we got about 600m of the stuff. We've got about 300m left which should keep us going a while.