madbeanpedals::forum

I'm just curious what everyone thinks about the new article? http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/20210-builder-profile-klons-bill-finnegan

Learned a little more about the history of the Klon than I knew, so that's cool. But seriously...the last couple of paragraphs  ::)

Lol my thoughts exactly

He started making the Klon in 94 and produced it for almost 15 years before the first clone showed up. And, the plethora of clones out there now are a direct consequence to the absence of the Klon from the pedal market for most of the last 4 years now. Not because it was reverse engineered. The KTR was in production for what...6 months? If anything, the demand for clones shows that the KTR would continue to be successful if he would just get his act together. Or, if he went back to making the original Klon he would make a killing. Charge $450 for a new run of gold horsies. People will buy it. Get over yourself and GBTW.

Not that I have strong feelings about it.

Very interesting article, I loved it.
Although yeah, the last few paragraphs sound a bit to bitter to me...

He could probably make more than $1,000 per pedal for the rest of his life and he's complaining that his work has become iconic.

At least that's the way I'm reading it ...

I think if I invented the next Big Muff or Tube Screamer I'd be pretty happy about it.

The market really does abhor a vacuum.

And I since Mr. Finnegan deems cloners to be "unscrupulous", I wonder what he has to say about Analogman? Most of his products are clones of things no longer in production (or that went out of production for a time). I personally think it's great that AM is offering once-defunct circuits to the people that want them.

Quote from: madbean on January 21, 2014, 03:00:09 PM
Not that I have strong feelings about it.

;D

liked the read never heard a klon in person just clones ....and i dont think it sounds like a twin ive recorded twins..good pedal just saying

but great read thanks for posting

I dunno why but this got me pretty riled up. The guy invents a great product, it's a cash cow and was produced in secrecy for about as long as a patent would last, and now he is a victim? Just as an analogy: pharmaceutical companies spend millions on R&D, and then have a window of what, 10-15 years on a patented product before it goes generic? Does GlaxoSmithKline go out of business after they create and produce a successful drug? No. They build on that success. They make better products, or new ones at least. Or even closer to home: how many billions of Muff clones are there? I hear EHX is doing pretty well.

He has all the advantages before him: the name, the product, the desire on the part of the consumer. The guy is clearly his own worst enemy. If he can't find someone to fab his circuit for him, unlike the rest of the world of electronics, then go back to through hole production. Hire a couple talented builders to stuff the boards, he does the final assembly, done. He doesn't even need a distributor. Direct sales on a $450 pedal means a whole lot of profit. Dang, I would design him a 1590BB though-hole Klon PCB gratis, NDA and everything, if he would just SOGOTP (edit: okay maybe I'm going too far, haha).

Okay...now I'm spent. I got a bit of KDS. Klon Derangement Syndrome. I honestly want the guy to succeed. He deserves it. But really....I mean...c'mon man!

EDIT: I started typing this before 'beans post above ;) We seem to have the same opinion and get equally as riled up by the whole fiasco.

I still stand by that the man is his own worst enemy. Countless times he's had opportunities to make a killing on his* design and he's made a balls up of it. Most of it's just common sense. He's had, for years, a baying market out there wanting him to make the pedal and yet he doesn't. The Klone market ONLY exists because the pedal became unobtainable either because it was OOP and stupidly expensive on the 2nd hand market. Yet still, people would pay him shitload for a pedal made by him and what's he doing? Nothing, not a f**king thing. But he'll bitch about it. He'll bitch about people making money from his design. Mate, YOU could make money from your design. Why the f**k aren't you?!

*to this day I don't believe he had much to do with the design of the circuit... If he did, would he need Paul C to design a switchable buffer or the two MIT guys to 'collaborate' and help design it. Likewise two years to do a layout for the KTR.

Quote from: madbean on January 21, 2014, 03:27:18 PM
The guy invents a great product, it's a cash cow and was produced in secrecy for about as long as a patent would last, and now he is a victim?

I don't know why some guys think that ONE CIRCUIT is going to pay the bills for a decade or more. Electronics of any kind is a fast-paced business. If you're standing still, you're dead.

Well, I'll have some sympathy for the guy if no one else will.

Imagine building the same pedal, and only that pedal, every day for the rest of your life. You don't have time to build anything else, or experiment, because so many people want to buy your thing. And because you spent so much time getting it right, you're convinced no one else can duplicate your work. You don't have time to release anything else because you don't have the time to dedicate to new projects that you had to devote to your old project. Eventually someone reverse engineers your work ... you've been careful about who you sell to because you have a reputation to protect, but other people aren't, so opinions start to pop up that aren't glowing reviews of the pedal. You see the writing on the wall and you're sick of doing the same thing over and over again, so you give it a rest, and then even more of the clones pop up. Then you go on the forums and everyone's saying absurd things about it and saying really nasty things about you, saying that you're lazy for not continuing to build something that has consumed the last 10-15 years of your life, or saying that you're a ridiculous person who no one should take seriously, and so forth. Why would you go out of your way to make those people happy?

And let's top it all off with you live in a city with a high cost of living, so even a small loss of market share can harm your standard of living, which isn't that good to begin with -- you still live in an apartment, and you're probably not saving much money, either. Even seeing that your pedal has been reverse engineered means that you need to make a decision: Will someone clone my pedal? What if people stop paying my asking price because it's being reproduced much cheaper (say, $62?)? You need to make a decision now -- and you decide that you need to find work without such reliance on a fickle marketplace where you can't compete. So you stop production and start obsessively testing a method of someone else reproducing your product to your specifications. In the time it takes you to do that, everyone and their brother is flooding the market with copies of your circuit, and by the time it takes to actually launch the product, the forum situation has really gotten out of hand and it just seems really stupid. To top it all off, you're not entirely happy with the work the fab house did, so you have to go back to the drawing board.

At what point in that does everyone think it's reasonable for the guy to just go do something else without everyone saying nasty things about them? Or is it just that he gave his opinion in an interview?

Does he have an overinflated opinion of the components in his pedal? Maybe. That could be ignorance -- he's not an engineer, after all. But if he's convinced that the components matter that much, he really does have more experience than anyone else on the planet and certainly has a right to be distressed when other people claim that theirs sounds "exactly the same as" his, when he knows that at least one component is different (whether or not he understands that that component is duplicable).

Even PaulC stopped building the Tim, for some of the same reasons Bill F stopped building his pedal ... and the clone market for Tim-alikes is much, much smaller (even including the Lovepedal nonsense).

Quote from: madbean on January 21, 2014, 03:27:18 PMDang, I would design him a 1590BB though-hole Klon PCB gratis, NDA and everything, if he would just SOGOTP (edit: okay maybe I'm going too far, haha).

You'd have to wait 2 years while he tested it to make sure it sounded the same. Then he'd have to let you use his secret stash of germ diodes...

He really should have outsourced, maybe approached EHX to do some kind of partnership deal or something (M M sounds like a great guy, from what I've heard.)

If you make 8,000 pedals (and only one kind), with one person, in your house, you seriously need to re-examine your processes. Last time that happened on a national scale in the USA was when the USA still had sweatshops run out of apartments, I think.

I will give him props for doing a really, really nice sounding overdrive, though :)

The whole drama behind the Klon is what made it so popular -- if he had outsourced early in the game, it would be another Riot or something.

Quote from: midwayfair on January 21, 2014, 03:35:09 PMImagine building the same pedal, and only that pedal, every day for the rest of your life. You don't have time to build anything else, or experiment, because so many people want to buy your thing.

Which is why you do what he did and make it mass produceable (KTR) or you partner with someone who has mass production ability and take a cut from the sales.

The biggest question to me is why did KTR production stop?

Quote from: midwayfair on January 21, 2014, 03:35:09 PMAnd because you spent so much time getting it right, you're convinced no one else can duplicate your work.

Yet he made the KTR which blows that right out of the water.

Let's face it, you can't buy a Klon product at all at the moment. So he isn't making any money. Who's fault is that?

Quote from: madbean on January 21, 2014, 03:00:09 PM
He started making the Klon in 94 and produced it for almost 15 years before the first clone showed up. And, the plethora of clones out there now are a direct consequence to the absence of the Klon from the pedal market for most of the last 4 years now. Not because it was reverse engineered. The KTR was in production for what...6 months? If anything, the demand for clones shows that the KTR would continue to be successful if he would just get his act together. Or, if he went back to making the original Klon he would make a killing. Charge $450 for a new run of gold horsies. People will buy it. Get over yourself and GBTW.

Not that I have strong feelings about it.

One also has to wonder how many klones have actually been sold and whether it's the vast amount that he's alluding to. Most guitarists that I speak to haven't even heard of a Klon and if they have, don't really have a lot of interest in it because they don't live on forums and have managed to avoid the hype train.

Quote from: midwayfair on January 21, 2014, 03:35:09 PM
At what point in that does everyone think it's reasonable for the guy to just go do something else without everyone saying nasty things about them? Or is it just that he gave his opinion in an interview?

I think you make good points, Jon. And, I know there is another side to it...his side. But, on your point above: the problem is that he isn't doing something else....he is in eternal limbo of almost producing a product. That's been going on for four years now. To come out and say "well I don't know if I should bother because people have maligned me" is a very fool-hardy way to operate a business. I don't think anyone is being particularly nasty to him on a personal level. They are criticizing his statements as a professional in the pedal business. Very different, IMO.

Quote from: midwayfair on January 21, 2014, 03:35:09 PM
Imagine building the same pedal, and only that pedal, every day for the rest of your life.

Let's just take this one point right here. This is a choice to build only one pedal. And like a lot of the other doom-and-gloom points you listed, these are under the control of the person running the business. Things like keeping production totally manual, using a particular custom expensive enclosure, renting space in an expensive city, hinging the entire business on one product for a decade...all things that are totally under my control if I'm the business owner.

If I were faced with these issues, I would do *something* (probably multiple somethings) to remedy the situation. Maybe find a production partner or license my design (with full public endorsement/blessing) to keep residual income while reducing labor to essentially zero. Those would be prudent and reasonable things to do that would not require uprooting your life. Failing that, I would quit and find something else to do. 

Easy for me to say not being the in the situation, I know. But I've been in situations not too dissimilar in the past. I tend to be a "shit or get off the pot" kind of guy. I hate languishing in some middle state between doing something and moving on, and I really do not like pity parties. But obviously, some people thrive on that sort of thing.

I wonder what his not more stringent but "different" criteria are for production....

Quote from: Jmilla on January 21, 2014, 04:13:16 PM
I wonder what his not more stringent but "different" criteria are for production....

Some bullshit that means that no-one thinks it's worth partnering with him? Like I say, I'd like to know what happened that meant that the mass production KTR stopped after 6 months. It certainly wasn't because it didn't sell!

It's what baffles me and why I have no sympathy for him. He has a saleable product with an established market and a reputation that means he can mark up that product significantly. Everything about it reeks of making a profit. If it's money, how is he not getting investment? It can't be actually finding someone to make it because there's plenty of peeps out there with the ability. Partnering, christ who wouldn't want to be associated with and selling the official Klon Centaur?

Yet since the KTR, nothing. Until this article where he moans about how hard done by he is...

I am posting in this thread.

Jacob

Ha

Note to self:
Giving in to butt hurt is a bad business move.

Some people just don't have a mind for business. It's a shame he doesn't hire a president/manager. I think it's frustrating to read because we see a guy who's sitting on a vacant lot that's a proven oil gusher and he's just sitting there grousing that picks and shovels are too much a hassle.

From the beginning he's had terrible business sense. All of it doesn't make sense.

Look at JHS. Nobody seems to like that guy, but he's making money hand over foot and his business is growing because he's great at the business end of things. If Bill had had a partner like that...

Jacob

I think the crux of it has basically been hit, but apparently I feel the need to post in this thread as well.

He refers to good people leaving the pedal industry for other industries so they won't get ripped off (presumably protected by patents).  Let's pretend for a minute that he did patent the Klon.

A patent lasts for 17 years.  During patent disclosure, prior art is established and that is protected (if enforced) during that time the patent is valid.  Once a patent expires, the floodgates open and anybody can make the product, which is exactly what the patent system is designed to allow.  It was never intended to allow for permanent exclusivity.  It was designed so that inventors could recover their investments and make some money, but not forever.

If 15 years went by before the first Klone showed up, he did very well, nearly getting the benefit of a patent without the filing fees and the cost of protecting it.

It's always a bummer to the inventor when a patent expires, but they do and businesses need to move forward or fall by the wayside.

I clearly need to post here or I won't be in with all the cool kids.

I have no issues with Bill (not like I know the guy).  He's responsible, in whatever fashion, for a great product that is highly revered. 

If he has in fact sold 8000 units @ $400 a unit (or whatever the price is), he probably should have banked between $1.5M and $2M off the product (figuring his production costs can't run more then $150 for an 80 component build which he didn't outsource).  I wouldn't complain too loudly about that.  The KTR experiment clearly didn't work, for whatever reason.  Now, if he blew all that dough on sideline interests, that's another story, but then he is clearly his own worst enemy, he can't be pissed at the klone world for his lack of acumen if that is the case.

Now, if I were him, I'd continue building the original product at my leisure.  I'm certain he could build and sell one day, five days a week, @ $500 - $1000 a pop and would still have an order backlog; the Joe Perrys, Joe Bonamassos, and Billy Gibbons of the world could probably keep him busy by themselves, and he wouldn't need to even market to the general public.

Clearly, it's not reasonable to expect that the original business model is sustainable infinitely.  If you don't want to/can't do the R&D, then become exclusive to those who won't buy the Aluminum Falcons, Soul Foods, or whatever else.  But don't make yourself look like the victim, which is kind of how this all comes across.

I really respect Bill's work and his success is a special combination of having a good original circuit, combined with scarcity, which makes the Klon "unobtainum."  Any of us could be as fortunate to have a slam-dunk product which is revered by the music community as "the one" or something special and world-renowned.  I place the Klon is in the same category as a Dumble, or a Trainwreck.  These are "unobtainum" because they are no longer produced, yet these tools were/are used to conjure "teh epik toanz" by (insert famous guitar player here).

There is a very delicate balance between supply and demand but it seems that Bill has sided too much with with the demand side of things and when there is a void in the market, there will be others there to fill that void.  Sitting on the sidelines and bitchin' about how the rest of the world passed you by is just crap.  Complaining about how others have filled that void because you choose not to make a product anymore doesn't pay the bills.  Like anything in life, you can either make it happen, or watch others make it happen.  You can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one fills up first.

Perhaps it's a pride thing, as his circuit was original and now there are copies of it all over the place.  While it is a douchebag thing to do to clone a circuit and claim you invented it yourself...(ahem JHS, Danelectro, others)...there will always be a market for clones.  I'm sure Bill feels both honored and hurt at the same time that others copied his design.  Take the black goop for example on the Klons.  Perhaps it was an effort to stop copying as well as a marketing tool "wow..this has goop on it so there must be something special in there!"  Maybe he doesn't want to release anything else because he knows others would just turn around and clone it instantly?  Regardless, whatever he makes will sell...and will sell nicely even with other clones in the market.  He also has that stash of "super-secret-unicorn tear-diodes"...which he claims make the original Klon 'above and beyond' any clones. 

Seeing as the "super secret special diode stash" is still in full effect, there is no reason Bill couldn't release a new version of the Klon or even continue production of the KTR and do pretty well for himself.  He is way past the level where he could easily design a pedal, have it built for him to his specifications, and sit back collecting the checks.  Make enough, but not so many you see them on sale at Guitar Center for $99.00.  Clones be dammed, he has certainly earned a good reputation (well deserved) and whatever he makes seems to have the Midas touch.  Get back to work!

Yeah, I just did the math. If he sold 8000 units, at a modest $325, that's 2.6 mil over 15 years. Even with his production costs, That's still 175 thou a year gross.

Jacob

I've calmed down a bit. I'm glad we are having this conversation here, because I've made my points, and I've agreed with many other things people are saying here; things I don't feel comfortable saying the bazillion Klon threads on TGP (and are wasteful there anyway). I know people here have a more unique perspective (and most likely a bit more informed) in regards to our viewpoints on the pedal business, building, etc.

In any case, I have a lot of respect for what he's accomplished. Hopefully I did not put too many bad vibes in this thread!

Victim mentality + Narcissistic Personally Disorder = His dilemma.

Bam  8)

Quote from: jkokura on January 21, 2014, 05:40:37 PM
Yeah, I just did the math. If he sold 8000 units, at a modest $325, that's 2.6 mil over 15 years. Even with his production costs, That's still 175 thou a year gross.

Jacob

That assumes that every sale is direct. I thought he had dealers, but I could be mistaken.

There is also the cost of tooling up and producing a unique enclosure.  It probably wasn't a fortune, but it would likely be more than getting an off the shelf box.

It also assumes no cost of running the business, but I have no idea what that was (doesn't sound like he has significant costs).

Quote from: pickdropper on January 21, 2014, 06:06:24 PM

Quote from: jkokura on January 21, 2014, 05:40:37 PM
Yeah, I just did the math. If he sold 8000 units, at a modest $325, that's 2.6 mil over 15 years. Even with his production costs, That's still 175 thou a year gross.

Jacob

That assumes that every sale is direct. I thought he had dealers, but I could be mistaken.

There is also the cost of tooling up and producing a unique enclosure.  It probably wasn't a fortune, but it would likely be more than getting an off the shelf box.

It also assumes no cost of running the business, but I have no idea what that was (doesn't sound like he has significant costs).

I assumed direct sales. That's what I was lead to believe on the interweb.

Rolling out the box would be pricey, but spread over 8000 units? Even if it were $25 per unit ($200,000), that's still $300 per unit left over...

Running a business would be assumed no matter what. With a gross of $175K per year averaged out, I'd assume anyone running any business with any sort of profit would have the same expenses: An accountant, and taxes.

Jacob

Well, whatever he thinks of cloners, at least he has a firm grasp of the legal situation and isn't going after them with threats.

There are a few other big names who aren't so gracious (and who will remain nameless, lest they do vanity searches for themselves).

Quote from: jkokura on January 21, 2014, 06:22:27 PM

Quote from: pickdropper on January 21, 2014, 06:06:24 PM

Quote from: jkokura on January 21, 2014, 05:40:37 PM
Yeah, I just did the math. If he sold 8000 units, at a modest $325, that's 2.6 mil over 15 years. Even with his production costs, That's still 175 thou a year gross.

Jacob

That assumes that every sale is direct. I thought he had dealers, but I could be mistaken.

There is also the cost of tooling up and producing a unique enclosure.  It probably wasn't a fortune, but it would likely be more than getting an off the shelf box.

It also assumes no cost of running the business, but I have no idea what that was (doesn't sound like he has significant costs).

I assumed direct sales. That's what I was lead to believe on the interweb.

Rolling out the box would be pricey, but spread over 8000 units? Even if it were $25 per unit ($200,000), that's still $300 per unit left over...

Running a business would be assumed no matter what. With a gross of $175K per year averaged out, I'd assume anyone running any business with any sort of profit would have the same expenses: An accountant, and taxes.

Jacob

Yeah, I could be wrong about the dealers; I seem to recall hearing dealers talk about carrying Klons.  I took a quick search and didn't find anything, although I did find out they used to be $279.

I'm the end, the conjecture is fun.  I am sure his take, whatever it was, was a decent wage (perhaps more than decent) and I think that's great.  He brought a cool product to market (even if he didn't fully design it himself) and made a nice living off it for more than a decade.

I think the real downside to doing all if the building himself is that it kept him occupied enough to prevent him from working on a new design.

Or maybe he is working a successor now.  One that will be harder to copy.  "The Wrath of Klon."

This article cracked me up. His contributions to the circuit were, as far as I could tell, wanting a really good overdrive, which is a really exclusive desire amongst guitarists, and having the persistence and connections with actual engineers to make it happen.

He is just a whiny doofus, in my opinion, or maybe a crazy person. This article makes me want to build all of the clones, and sell 'em all on ebay at my material cost.

Well that escalated quickly, lol. You sure did justify your user name playpunk :D
Although I agree that the Klon creator leaves an impression of a slightly cray cray personae...

Quote from: pickdropper"The Wrath of Klon."

That's funny... I actually did a custom Centaur build for someone in town a few months ago and he wanted it to say "The Wrath of Klon" on the front as a jab toward Bill. Wish I'd taken a picture of it before it left the house!

He used to own a real one, and said that when he originally bought it from Bill over the phone, he got grilled over his gear and playing style. And not just making conversation - he felt like Bill wanted to make sure he was good enough to have a Centaur.

Quote from: Cortexturizer on January 21, 2014, 07:08:26 PMcray cray

Annnnd I read this in the proper accent. Thanks for the laugh!  ;D

Hell, I wished he'd make the enclosure alone available.

Quotedoofus

That made me laugh.   
And I was feeling left out and needed to post with the cool kids.

Quote from: playpunk on January 21, 2014, 07:04:43 PM
This article cracked me up. His contributions to the circuit were, as far as I could tell, wanting a really good overdrive, which is a really exclusive desire amongst guitarists, and having the persistence and connections with actual engineers to make it happen.

Well, in fairness to him, that is incredibly common in business.  Somebody in a company comes up with a marketable concept and then the engineers have to implement it.  In many cases, the person who came up with the concept may feel a certain ownership of the idea, even though they couldn't have done it on their own.

I think the point to this story is not to sell yourself short with resources and time. If you are going to make something that is popular and with such a high demand you need others to help or else its a battle of creation and distribution. More and more I think to myself "he did it to himself."

I do think he built a great circuit and had a great run at the market but you cant keep going over a decade on one design. I have NEVER read about/seen a company with just one product that has been around for 15 years.

As I see it:

• Make cool pedal and show it to the masses.
• Accepted by masses and the demand is made.
• Praise is given by people of the interwebs.
• Make as many pedals as I can to keep up with demand.
• Waiting list grows.
• People become unhappy with having to wait 10-12 weeks for pedal or more.
• Comments reflect unhappy people on the interwebs.
• Prices drive up for second had ones due to waiting list.
• People blame designer for high prices and smash him on the interwebs.

I have more to add but I have to clock back in at work.. will have to wait.

Cody

Quote from: aion on January 21, 2014, 06:39:42 PM
Well, whatever he thinks of cloners, at least he has a firm grasp of the legal situation and isn't going after them with threats.

There are a few other big names who aren't so gracious (and who will remain nameless, lest they do vanity searches for themselves).

Oh he's been there, done that and got the T-shirt.

Quote from: pickdropper on January 21, 2014, 08:32:42 PM

Quote from: playpunk on January 21, 2014, 07:04:43 PM
This article cracked me up. His contributions to the circuit were, as far as I could tell, wanting a really good overdrive, which is a really exclusive desire amongst guitarists, and having the persistence and connections with actual engineers to make it happen.

Well, in fairness to him, that is incredibly common in business.  Somebody in a company comes up with a marketable concept and then the engineers have to implement it.  In many cases, the person who came up with the concept may feel a certain ownership of the idea, even though they couldn't have done it on their own.

Ahhh, a project manager. I remember those ;)

Blah blah. I had something here, but then thought better of it.  ;D

I'm actually proud of myself for only getting involved here.  ;)

Quote from: juansolo on January 21, 2014, 09:23:59 PM

Quote from: aion on January 21, 2014, 06:39:42 PM
Well, whatever he thinks of cloners, at least he has a firm grasp of the legal situation and isn't going after them with threats.

There are a few other big names who aren't so gracious (and who will remain nameless, lest they do vanity searches for themselves).

Oh he's been there, done that and got the T-shirt.

Quote from: pickdropper on January 21, 2014, 08:32:42 PM

Quote from: playpunk on January 21, 2014, 07:04:43 PM
This article cracked me up. His contributions to the circuit were, as far as I could tell, wanting a really good overdrive, which is a really exclusive desire amongst guitarists, and having the persistence and connections with actual engineers to make it happen.

Well, in fairness to him, that is incredibly common in business.  Somebody in a company comes up with a marketable concept and then the engineers have to implement it.  In many cases, the person who came up with the concept may feel a certain ownership of the idea, even though they couldn't have done it on their own.

Ahhh, a project manager. I remember those ;)

Actually, I was thinking of the sales department.  The Product and Project Manager are layers unto themselves.

I'm really glad that he pulled out that product out... no matter how he was involved in it....seems like all he had where soldering skills... but it sounds great, cool design... i like it.

It's a shame for is own convictions/ambitions that he've never been able to get is fingers out of is a** and move on...

I hardly can respect the professional profile of that individual.

I enjoyed the article.  I thought Bill Finnegan was an urban legend.

...oh how i love you guys...with all these intelligent & informative discussions and remarks...

..back in the '80s ive only seen & used BOSS products...and some vesta fire chorus...some Pearl products...and a Maestro FUZZ...not even heard of the Big Muff or the RAT then...by the way im located from the other side of the pond...and what was it everyone is talking 'bout?...oh i remember!...the Klown!....

...sorry guys to butt in...i just enjoyed reading the forum... :) :) :) :)

Saw this post on TGP (poster id removed):
"Holy Crap at the posts being deleted this morning. I've refreshed 3 separate threads and watched whole conversations disappear. It's like the rapture."
__________________

Steve Jobs would have killed for the sort of hype and emotion this guy can muster.  Bill should realise that this is the most valuable thing a business owner can have.  He could establish a successful lucrative business on this sort of hype alone.  He's doing now it!  Where all discussing it! He has a skill for it.  Instead he moans about 'clones'.  Some people would kill for the goldmine he is (still) sitting on.

It still amazes me that after several years, people don't just go "f--- it, no pedal is worth this kind of bullshit, money, and time."

This toan thing really is a religion for some.

Hey Rej, Bill called, said he'd like a hundred pack of Chimaera boards, from the group buy  ;)

lol

So does the pedal community know what the unicorn diodes are?  Im out of touch with this....um....bs... :D

I can't say there was anything in the article that really made my blood boil.

The whole Klon saga has kind of become a bit tedious to be honest.

Maybe he feels the same way  ????

People slag him and his product off to no end (including me in the past I have to say).

However when you look at it, many of us build, and some even sell, the very product he brought to fruition  :o ;)

I think it may be time to give the guy a break and let it lie...

Wow, a lot of judgment here -- didn't realize how many geniuses and big business moguls resided here.  All you self-made pedal-building millionaires, please raise your hands . . .

I don't know Bill personally but I've talked to a friend of his -- he described him as a most humble and almost shy individual who really wants no part of all the "ridiculous hype that . . . is not of his making".  Also described as a genuinely nice guy who just happens to be very fussy and particular about his product.

Remember, too, that the internet basically wasn't around when he started doing that pedal . . . so the wealth of readily available information that so many take for granted right now just wasn't there at the time.  Just for fun, try to quantify all of your circuit or pedal building knowledge.  Now imagine subtracting everything you've gleaned from the internet.  What do you have left?

BTW, I'm a licensed engineer and project/discipline manager -- you'd be surprised how many decent engineers can't put a coherent sentence together or organize their work.  Smart as whips with the calculations and such . . . but common sense often eludes them (i.e., can't see the forest through the trees).  A good PM is essential in most cases to bring a project to fruition and ensure budgets are met.  So if the guy realized what he wanted but was incapable of doing all of the circuit design himself, what is so bad about reaching out to others?  And try hand building 8000 of anything . . . day after day, week after week . . . I know I'd get sick of it after awhile for sure.

Just trying to look at it from a different angle.

Quote from: Fastocker on January 22, 2014, 01:55:53 PM
Wow, a lot of judgment here -- didn't realize how many geniuses and big business moguls resided here.  All you self-made pedal-building millionaires, please raise your hands . . .

I don't know Bill personally but I've talked to a friend of his -- he described him as a most humble and almost shy individual who really wants no part of all the "ridiculous hype that . . . is not of his making".  Also described as a genuinely nice guy who just happens to be very fussy and particular about his product.

Remember, too, that the internet basically wasn't around when he started doing that pedal . . . so the wealth of readily available information that so many take for granted right now just wasn't there at the time.  Just for fun, try to quantify all of your circuit or pedal building knowledge.  Now imagine subtracting everything you've gleaned from the internet.  What do you have left?

BTW, I'm a licensed engineer and project/discipline manager -- you'd be surprised how many decent engineers can't put a coherent sentence together or organize their work.  Smart as whips with the calculations and such . . . but common sense often eludes them (i.e., can't see the forest through the trees).  A good PM is essential in most cases to bring a project to fruition and ensure budgets are met.  So if the guy realized what he wanted but was incapable of doing all of the circuit design himself, what is so bad about reaching out to others?  And try hand building 8000 of anything . . . day after day, week after week . . . I know I'd get sick of it after awhile for sure.

Just trying to look at it from a different angle.

Actually, that's not all that different than what I was trying to say.  There is nothing wrong with having an idea and hiring people to help you implement it.  That's the basis of a lot of business.  I am also an engineer/project manager, so I can see it from that side. 

While some begrudge Bill for whatever reason, I don't feel the thread has been entirely negative; the exchange of ideas has been more level-headed here than some of the threads I've seen elsewhere.

I think what rubs some folks wrong is when he portrays himself as a victim.  He clearly loves the Klon and has spent much of his life building them (I know I'd be sick of building them long before 8,000).  But he has some culpability in the current state of things.  As was stated earlier in the thread, he created a vacuum in the industry by not meeting demand.  As happens in a free market, somebody was bound to fill that gap.  If people can't find what they want from the original maker, they will find somebody else who will make it for them (assuming it is desirable enough).

I know where the magic comes from........

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/22/ubydy5e9.jpg)

Sent from my thumbs using Tapatalk!

Quote from: Fastocker on January 22, 2014, 01:55:53 PM
Wow, a lot of judgment here -- didn't realize how many geniuses and big business moguls resided here.  All you self-made pedal-building millionaires, please raise your hands . . .

It tends to be a polarizing subject, for whatever reason. I'm most definitely neither of those things, and neither is Bill I suspect. Here's something positive about the way he used to "market" the Klon: talking with each and every new buyer about their gear and expectations before making a purchase. That is exceptional to me. PaulC is the only other guy I know who does that kind of thing.

I don't know Bill, Don't know anyone associated with Bill, and I have yet to build anything resembling a Klon or a Klone however.....

When he says that he "has nothing to do with the ridiculous hype surrounding the Klon" that is an absolute LIE!

As so many have stated, by starving the market of his product and limiting release, whether it was by his inability to supply product fast enough OR by intentionally under producing them.... HE DID CREATE THE HYPE!

Personally, I don't care if he did it, why he did it, etc. But, to say that he had no involvement in creating this circus AND putting it on his new Klon pedals shows me that there is quite a bit of entitlement and narcissism on his part.

My 2  8)

Quote from: Fastocker on January 22, 2014, 01:55:53 PM
....... stuff......

I don't disagree with  many of your points. However...

Quote from: Fastocker on January 22, 2014, 01:55:53 PM
And try hand building 8000 of anything . . . day after day, week after week . . .

But WHYYYYYY?? ?? ?? Why would I try to build several thousand of the same thing, by hand, over and over for years on end, making no attempts at process improvement or efficiency gains? Especially if it's not making me rich. WHY?? It makes no sense.

Especially if I have the internet (since you brought it up) as a tool to teach me about electronics, circuit board fabrication, design for production/manufacturing, screen printing, graphic design, photography, marketing, and every other discipline that might benefit me as a one-man shop.  ;)

All boats rise with the tide. If the internet helps kloners, it also helps the original designers as well. But you must choose to avail yourself of that help. It is not automatic.

Totally dig everything culturejam just said.
You just put into words what was needling the back of my brain while reading this thread.  the "Why do that.. "

With regards to the internet, maybe Mr. Bill thinks the internet is only for porn.

Quote from: angrykoko on January 22, 2014, 06:12:32 PM
With regards to the internet, maybe Mr. Bill thinks the internet is only for porn.

But there isn't any other use of rhe internet?

Sent from my thumbs using Tapatalk!

Quote from: angrykoko on January 22, 2014, 06:12:32 PM
You just put into words what was needling the back of my brain while reading this thread.

Thanks.


My favorite comment from the soon-to-be-epic TGP thread:

QuoteCan somebody introduce him to Alexander Dumble they need to meet. So they can build an amp the Klumble.

Quote from: culturejam on January 22, 2014, 07:06:04 PM

QuoteCan somebody introduce him to Alexander Dumble they need to meet. So they can build an amp the Klumble.

More likely, they'd switch it around and call it "The Don."  It would be the Godfather of all guitar amps.

The problem with the Klumble is that it would never see the light of day, or have some sort of insensitive tone-snobbery text on it, or something would hold it up in production and then someone would leak the schematic, and then the next thing you know Fender and Marshall each have their version released in 1x12 and 2x12 combos along with 50 and 100 watt heads.

Jacob

All that article did was make me want to build a clone.
Sorry, Bill.

Quote from: AntKnee on January 22, 2014, 07:14:02 PM
All that article did was make me want to build a clone.
Sorry, Bill.

Same here. If I would solder a Klon board every day for a year, and leave the boxing to someone else, I think I should be able to acquire a nice little nest egg...... Any takers? Juan? I can probably do more than one a day on weekends.....

Paul

Quote from: hoodoo on January 22, 2014, 06:17:36 AM
Hey Rej, Bill called, said he'd like a hundred pack of Chimaera boards, from the group buy  ;)

He should! hahaha!

With a really fast overview of my Chimaera pcb sales since i started that...1 years ago.. i can firmly state, that is weakness have been taken over ;)

OK, well im sure im about to turn a sensitive topic even more sensitive...infact, im so concerned about the reaction im going to just whisper this...

I didn't even think the Klon sounded that good

:o :o :o :o

Quote from: chromesphere on January 22, 2014, 10:25:35 PM
OK, well im sure im about to turn a sensitive topic even more sensitive...infact, im so concerned about the reaction im going to just whisper this...

I didn't even think the Klon sounded that good

It sounds good, at one thing, it's a one trick pony (lol).

So i'd agree with you.

:o :o :o :o

Second favorite TGP post:

QuoteThe real question is how long do we have to wait before someone clones that card table.

;D

Quote from: culturejam on January 23, 2014, 01:16:44 AM
Second favorite TGP post:

QuoteThe real question is how long do we have to wait before someone clones that card table.

;D

Wow.. I'm literally crying right now in laughter. I needed that today.. Thanks

I think we need to make "card table tone" a common saying. It will take a concerted effort, but I think we can do it.  ;D

Quote from: culturejam on January 23, 2014, 02:14:38 AM
I think we need to make "card table tone" a common saying. It will take a concerted effort, but I think we can do it.  ;D

I'm in!

My next overdrive will be called the card table overdrive...it just has to be that way...

Can we come up with a theory why guitar pedals built on a card table sound better? 

Quote from: chromesphere on January 23, 2014, 03:27:12 AM
Can we come up with a theory why guitar pedals built on a card table sound better?

Because Klons were built on a card table. Nuff said.  8)

I'd like to know how this whole lady needs money he gives her a klone to sell is working out.

Quote from: madbean on January 21, 2014, 03:27:18 PM
I would design him a 1590BB though-hole Klon PCB gratis....<snip>

You've on rev 4 now aren't you?
(http://i.imgur.com/fWnf7Dz.png) (http://imgur.com/fWnf7Dz)
/ducks

Quote from: jimilee on January 23, 2014, 05:11:56 AM
I'd like to know how this whole lady needs money he gives her a klone to sell is working out.

Well Jimi, when a man gives a woman money or objects worth money...

Quote from: Fastocker on January 22, 2014, 01:55:53 PMBTW, I'm a licensed engineer and project/discipline manager -- you'd be surprised how many decent engineers can't put a coherent sentence together or organize their work.  Smart as whips with the calculations and such . . . but common sense often eludes them (i.e., can't see the forest through the trees).  A good PM is essential in most cases to bring a project to fruition and ensure budgets are met.  So if the guy realized what he wanted but was incapable of doing all of the circuit design himself, what is so bad about reaching out to others?  And try hand building 8000 of anything . . . day after day, week after week . . . I know I'd get sick of it after awhile for sure.

I may waffle a bit here, please feel free to ignore me.

When I started doing what I used to do as a job (building large scale computer systems), I used to meet with the internal customer, discuss their requirements, come up with a design, agree it, plan it, get the kit in, organise the networking, install and test all the infrastructure up to app level, organise the app teams, test the systems then put them live.

Then someone in their wisdom seemed to think we needed project managers to do the organising for us who had no experience doing any of the above. Thankfully I managed to train a couple of them who I preferred to work with who were ex-techinical staff so it wasn't too bad with them. But by god, when you got a non-technical PM it was a nightmare. What I'm saying is that PMs are all well and good, but it helps if they have a grounding in what they're managing. Likewise it's handy if your tech staff know how to organise their ways out of a paper bag. If you've only got staff that can do one or another then you're screwed.

But I do understand what you're saying. I, for my sins as a nerd/geek, have little to no social skills. I can however organise things and deal with things logically. That tends to be what we're good at. Coping with pointless things like smalltalk and reading people's emotions aren't really our strong suit. I am going off topic here... But if Bill is ill equipped to market his property, how hard is it to find a partner that isn't? Moaning about it doesn't get anything done.

As for repetitive work. Again, you'll find there are people out there that are actually good at that and like it. Assembly lines, warehouse jobs, things like that. Some people actually like work that they can switch off and do. Why he took a task on himself that involved this rather than employing someone to do it for him is his choice. I'm not going to feel sorry for anyone that chooses to make their own life miserable. Do something about it.

It comes down to this. The whole situation is his doing. As described in the article, he has complete control over everything. He didn't have to do anything the way he did it, he chose to do it that way.

...and this is the rub I suppose. There are people here who have an insight into the pedal industry. They can see what an opportunity he still has 15+ years on with this pedal and he's just choosing not to do anything about it but moan about how hard done by he is. Sure he's not exploited what he has as well as he could have, but he still could. There's still a lot of value in both the pedal and the brand he's (unwittingly?) built up. Which is why people like me think that he's his own worst enemy. If he needs help and hasn't got it by now, then he's screwed. Go and do another job and just step away from building pedals. But he keeps popping up every now and then and reminding people about Klon... Then he does nothing. It's madness.

Quote from: Clayford on January 23, 2014, 05:32:54 AM

Quote from: jimilee on January 23, 2014, 05:11:56 AM
I'd like to know how this whole lady needs money he gives her a klone to sell is working out.

Well Jimi, when a man gives a woman money or objects worth money...

Balls deep one would assume. Or as has been speculated, an ex-wife...

Quote from: DutchMF on January 22, 2014, 08:23:48 PM

Quote from: AntKnee on January 22, 2014, 07:14:02 PM
All that article did was make me want to build a clone.
Sorry, Bill.

Same here. If I would solder a Klon board every day for a year, and leave the boxing to someone else, I think I should be able to acquire a nice little nest egg...... Any takers? Juan? I can probably do more than one a day on weekends.....

Paul

I may be doing something like that shortly for a small run of Klones  ;D  I need some capacitor money and some powder coating gear.

Quote from: juansolo on January 23, 2014, 09:09:02 AM
It comes down to this. The whole situation is his doing. As described in the article, he has complete control over everything. He didn't have to do anything the way he did it, he chose to do it that way.

BINGO!  It's his deal -- he can run the show however he deems fit.  Why does that seem to offend so many?  Don't want to deal with it?  Don't buy the pedal -- period.  He's doing it the way he wants -- why do some feel the need to trash that?  And I don't necessarily see much whining in what he says -- he's saying what he feels . . . often in a classier manor than many of his detractors.  It's just seems like kind of a torch and pitchfork crowd scene sometimes . . . maybe people just get bored and edgy during the winter and need somebody or something to pick on, I don't know.

I kind of like his approach -- I'm currently trying to bring a vibe pedal to market in small quantities and I never imagined how much time and work it would take (financial, legal, time constraints, product development, outsourcing manufacturing that I can't do in house, etc.).  I've had more unsolicited advice on how to do things than I would ever ask for.  But I'm the only one that knows exactly how I want the product to look and sound and I don't want to give up control of that.  And I don't want to quit my day job either, so the process will be slow and quantities will be limited.  They'll either sell or they won't -- I'm not worried either way.  But I'm not really willing to give up total control of the final product yet . . . so in a way I can see how/why Bill does some of the things he does.

And the snarky speculation about his dealings with the single mother are puerile . . . . come on, gentlemen, let's raise the bar a tad.

Quote from: jimilee on January 23, 2014, 05:11:56 AM
I'd like to know how this whole lady needs money he gives her a klone to sell is working out.

Yeah, that's what I don't get.  He knows building them is like printing money, yet he can't put 2 and 2 together.  I agree that he needs a partner that's savvy in business strategy.  I think he deserves his success, but if he loses everything due to lack of vision it's his own damn fault.

Quote from: Clayford on January 23, 2014, 05:31:55 AM

Quote from: madbean on January 21, 2014, 03:27:18 PM
I would design him a 1590BB though-hole Klon PCB gratis....<snip>

You've on rev 4 now aren't you?
(http://i.imgur.com/fWnf7Dz.png) (http://imgur.com/fWnf7Dz)
/ducks

Meaning what exactly?

I think people should focus on something besides the single mother aspect.  It was simply the explanation for why new Klons are showing up on ebay from time to time, if he is not actively producing for customers. 
I thought the interview was interesting.  He is very eccentric.  I am still dumbstruck by his claim that he had a tiny profit margin. 

Quote from: Fastocker on January 23, 2014, 12:58:11 PM
BINGO!  It's his deal -- he can run the show however he deems fit.  Why does that seem to offend so many?  Don't want to deal with it?  Don't buy the pedal -- period.  He's doing it the way he wants -- why do some feel the need to trash that?  And I don't necessarily see much whining in what he says -- he's saying what he feels . . . often in a classier manor than many of his detractors.  It's just seems like kind of a torch and pitchfork crowd scene sometimes . . . maybe people just get bored and edgy during the winter and need somebody or something to pick on, I don't know.

I completely agree....no one in entitled to a Klon or KTR and he can do things however he wants. But, there's nothing wrong with people making observations on his practices and critiquing them in the context of the pedal industry. People do this in all industries. Not that it should get personal, because it should not. I definitely got a little incensed after reading the article but yeah, klon derangement syndrome. It's a thing.

Quote from: Fastocker on January 23, 2014, 12:58:11 PM
He's doing it the way he wants -- why do some feel the need to trash that?

Nobody would be able to trash his business practices if he didn't make them public. He's posted many many times on TGP about how his business operates, and obviously he's not shy about doing interviews.

If you make your private situation public, you can expect that people will comment on it. In fact, that's the whole point of going public: to stir up commentary and create buzz.

For example, why mention the card table at all? Is it really relevent? Of course not. It's a detail thrown in to lend more credence to the small business / regular guy angle of the marketing. He obviously wants us to talk about that, or else he wouldn't have mentioned it in the very public interview.

And his plan worked out masterfully.* We're all passionately debating about his business and his product, which gives a level of exposure you can't buy for a million bucks. Well played, Finnegan. Well played.

* Almost masterfully, I should say. It would be masterful if had any Klons to sell...unless he has a warehouse full and is ready to launch. That would be awesome.

Looks like the TGP is already locked. This whole thing pretty much followed the playbook.

Brian, when are the Card Table boards shipping?

That GIF would have been priceless if you could have photoshopped Bill's face over the Genius pic!  8)

Quote from: Fastocker on January 23, 2014, 12:58:11 PM

Quote from: juansolo on January 23, 2014, 09:09:02 AM
It comes down to this. The whole situation is his doing. As described in the article, he has complete control over everything. He didn't have to do anything the way he did it, he chose to do it that way.

BINGO!  It's his deal -- he can run the show however he deems fit.  Why does that seem to offend so many? 

Because he's whining about it, and some of us are building klones! That's why it bothers us, if you will, because some of us, maybe even many of us, are the ones he's complaining and whining about!

Listen man, it seems like you're on Bill's side on this whole matter. That's fine. But most of the people around here aren't sympathetic to him. It's been many, many years of watching him, and the whole situation, and having Bill say some rather nasty (and in some cases untrue) words towards the DIY community has left this group with little grace towards him. Not saying it's right or wrong, but that's what you're seeing.

Jacob

Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on January 23, 2014, 03:49:57 PM
That GIF would have been priceless if you could have photoshopped Bill's face over the Genius pic!  8)

This is all in good fun, of course.

I heard Tayda's also bringing their own card table to market, but for $6500.  Only downside is the layout doesn't match the pinout, and hence there's three legs on one side...... ::)

Quote from: madbean on January 23, 2014, 04:01:02 PM
This is all in good fun, of course.

But now to make it appropriate, you have to change the date available to "~2010"  ;D

Hi,
I'm trying to build a card table and was wondering if anyone had the specs for the feet?

Quote from: culturejam on January 23, 2014, 04:11:08 PM

Quote from: madbean on January 23, 2014, 04:01:02 PM
This is all in good fun, of course.

But now to make it appropriate, you have to change the date available to "~2010"  ;D

tears in eyes...laughing

Quote from: madbean on January 23, 2014, 03:29:14 PM
Looks like the TGP is already locked. This whole thing pretty much followed the playbook.

Put me down for one of those!  8)

Quote from: jkokura on January 23, 2014, 03:56:54 PMHaving Bill say some rather nasty (and in some cases untrue) words towards the DIY community has left this group with little grace towards him. Not saying it's right or wrong, but that's what you're seeing.

This ^ There's history between Bill and the DIY community. He really didn't endear himself to us in a big way. Wasn't he the first one to call us terrorists and even got FSB shutdown (albeit temporarily)?

As someone else mentioned, the whining is the other thing that rubs me the wrong way personally. Especially when he has control over his own destiny.

As for the single mother. Crassness aside, and throwing some speculation out there, it's a good way to sell new pedals 2nd hand with a massive mark up whilst avoiding the IRS. Just saying... Or he could just be a genuinely nice, caring, misunderstood guy who lacks any common sense.

Quote from: juansolo on January 23, 2014, 04:54:08 PM
Or he could just be a genuinely nice, caring, misunderstood guy who lacks any common sense.

I love those British twists in the end! [of the sentence hahah]

Hey Bean. Can you do a single sided card table for us etchers?

Quote from: madbean on January 23, 2014, 02:02:32 PM
Meaning what exactly?

I'm afraid I might have offended you in my comment... It wasn't the intention. Meaning that your offer to (re)design it is mostly complete. Your Klone circuit is well regarded as one of, if not the best of the Klones. You stopped at rev 3. Can't buy the boards from you(yet) and Haberdasher will not etch. But armed with your document, some copper clad, and FeCl3,  one is ready to attempt the completely impossible task of making a Klone of a pedal that not only contained unobtanium, but also poured goop unicorn tears over it after soldering it together. Others have used your schematic and the other to create their own layout/products as well and offer them for a reasonable price. Your layout and version of the schematic was and still is being used by a more than a few cloners (boutique builders too! Just look around.) to separate fools and their money satisfy the needs of the corksniffers masses that have to have one.

I've heard and played through 2 Klon's^**. The first one was a Silver Klon and I had NO knowledge of the pedal and I damned near dropped my Les Paul when I heard how much the thing was "worth". The second was a KTR It's a decent pedal, but I don't think I'd have ever paid $269 for it, certainly not the $500+ used originals go for. $129? $149? Quite possibly. The TGP crowd will say I'm tone deaf, but these are the people that bought into the Gibson BumbleBee and the Freekish Blues fiascos, defended them fervently, then threw complete temper tantrums once they figured out they'd been "duped".  

As you stated - If Bill wanted it, for little to no cost (because you and probably countless others would design it and sign it away in a heartbeat) - he could have a ready to roll Klon board with SMT and/or thru-hole components, pcb mounted pots, jacks, and power, a buffered/non-buffered switch, with a 7pin molex headered replaceable footswitch, ready to drop in a 1590(B or BB) ala EHX, MXR, etc, all per his design spec. Supposedly by the time we read the article, we can get KTR's again. They aren't available yet, and I honestly don't think they will be. I could be wrong, but honestly why should he? Because once he does the game changes. Everyone will able to make an informed decision about his pedal, and not be awed by the fact they paid a week's worth of salary for it used. Now his one design must not only measure up to, but measure above the Klones, or he fails. There's no biscuit to dangle in front of everyone. There's no "Rockstar" mentality for himself nor the owners of his product. He now to stop the incessant bitching and moaning about how everyone is/was stealing his money. You know the money that he admittedly gives to someone when they need it^***. The value of the Klon market plummets. His assistant, John Perotti, shows him another funny video that he shares trolling the community. What's left? Those circuits he has been working on and perfecting for years.. you know the ones he's been working on without the help of Fenning, whom Bill openly admits is responsible for a good portion of the Klon sounding how it actually does, that he doesn't want to release because we're all a bunch of grabasses waiting to steal his designs and money? They would have to be released and must be spectacular or else ALL of the hype would be GONE.^****

TL/DR Version:
After he packed up his toys and went home, you had the best alternative option to the entire community through 3 separate revisions. Some people decided to abuse the ever loving crap out of it for a profit. You stopped producing them for reasons that are your own. Klon(e) discussion has always managed to get you a little worked up, but you have stopped letting it do that do you recently. Bill is completely aware that his product is: desired, completely marketable, and a self admitted license to print money. Admittedly he's been offered lots of money to make them, and he refuses to do so on a regular basis, thus invalidating his right to bitch. Sure he did allow the KTR out for a bit, (whilst blatantly trolling the community) and then just as quickly stopped production due to reasons he would only vaguely hint at, but won't actually discuss. And those are valuable now too. You have decided to release the SunkingII (rev4). Supposedly he's rereleasing the KTR again too. I think both ideas are awesome.

Does anyone else feel like Premier Guitar also trolled the community, and are also currently watching the page views and therefore advertising dollars roll in?


^*results may vary
^**itsbasicallyjustatubescreamer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP0wGGQRQAI&feature=youtu.be&t=30)
^***Or has he just gotten smarter and realized he can just build one and have it sold the cost of building 2-3 of them?
^****Remember the hype is not his making

Could someone please point to the article where BOSS, MXR, EHX, Ibanez, DOD, Dunlop, etc. are making claims and pouting about DIY'ers "stealing" their innovations?

Oh... right.... you wont!

I think that is because they run a good business model and still make money!

Willing to bet that ALL of the companies I named above started on a "card table" or the likes (didn't MXR start in a basement?) and yet... they manage to be successful amidst the massive cloning of their products.

More of my 2  ;)

Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on January 23, 2014, 08:36:13 PM
Could someone please point to the article where BOSS, MXR, EHX, Ibanez, DOD, Dunlop, etc. are making claims and pouting about DIY'ers "stealing" their innovations?

Oh... right.... you wont!

They are too busy stealing from each other to write articles.  ;D

Quote from: culturejam on January 23, 2014, 09:44:06 PM

They are too busy stealing from each other to write articles.  ;D

I seriously lol'd.  Good one haha

Cant believe I've never read anything about the Klon saga...its like watching a car crash in slow motion.  I gotta say I love the drama.  Spicing things up eh? :D

I was going to ask, has anyone on this forum had something stolen / copied / ripped off that they had developed?  How did it make you feel?  What did you do about it?

I have.  A number of times.  I discovered, its not the idea that's valuable.  It's the ability to create new ideas that's important.  I find some people that are hooked up on 'protecting' their ideas are usually people that either, can not come up with new ideas (pot luck has handed them a golden goose), or placed all their eggs in one basket. 

Imagine it from Bill's point of view though.  Imagine you had that massive cash cow that is the Klon at your feet and people started ripping it off...man I think I would be p1ssed too.  He needs to remember though that ITS STILL A CASH COW.  He could produce and sell a million units to corksniffers at <whatever price he sets>...if he got off his ass and did it. 

Paul

Quote from: chromesphere on January 23, 2014, 09:59:13 PM
He could produce and sell a million units to corksniffers at <whatever price he sets>...if he got off his ass and did it. 

This.

As far as criticising him goes, I'm sorry but that's life.  Your criticised from the moment your born.  I'm entitled to an opinion just like he is.  I get negative comments and just plain insults on my youtube vidoes all the time.  I had someone yesterday tell me "your so boring if we worked on a project together id punch myself in the face". that sort of comment would once bother me but its effect these days is limited.  I move on pretty quickly....ok...you got me...I cried for hours, I admit.  Id actually take that sort of comment on board "ok this video is a bit long winded" instead of getting all emotional.

Anyway, here's a tip: If your sensitive, don't put it out there.  There's no exception for me, and there's no exception for you either. 

Phew.. just finished my card table.
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5867592448/hA59E027C/)

Win!

Quote from: chromesphere on January 23, 2014, 09:59:13 PM
Imagine you had that massive cash cow that is the Klon at your feet and people started ripping it off

Welcome to:

• The Music Biz
• The Electronics Biz
• The Music Electronics Biz

Quote from: chromesphere on January 23, 2014, 09:59:13 PM
Imagine it from Bill's point of view though.  Imagine you had that massive cash cow that is the Klon at your feet and people started ripping it off...man I think I would be p1ssed too.  He needs to remember though that ITS STILL A CASH COW.  He could produce and sell a million units to corksniffers at <whatever price he sets>...if he got off his ass and did it. 

Paul

I keep thinking of this and I think we would see the same effects that is happening now but in reverse. I would say that most of the "Cash Cow" syndrome is from the lack of devices. If you think about it this way, make more available then the demand for used and or clones would lessen. I bet if he started creating more that he would be able to charge $500 for them, but for how long? At some point the market will be saturated and people will stop buying them, or at least at those prices.

It reminds me of when the Strymon Timeline came out. I was on the initial waiting list and got mine but they sold out so quick that the units were then flipped for $800. Then in a month they get back in stock and prices are back down.

And more recently the Sony PS4.. Supply and demand conquers all. I have paid more than double for some things just to "get it now" than to wait but that was my decision.

I agree Cody.  I bought a strymon big sky for xmas for $520.  I notice for some reason now they are $600ish which im assuming is due to lack of stock.

I was told working hard was the way to make $$$, im starting to reconsider that...I think working slow could be more advantageous..?

Paul

Quote from: selfdestroyer on January 23, 2014, 11:09:18 PM

Quote from: chromesphere on January 23, 2014, 09:59:13 PM
Imagine it from Bill's point of view though.  Imagine you had that massive cash cow that is the Klon at your feet and people started ripping it off...man I think I would be p1ssed too.  He needs to remember though that ITS STILL A CASH COW.  He could produce and sell a million units to corksniffers at <whatever price he sets>...if he got off his ass and did it. 

Paul

I keep thinking of this and I think we would see the same effects that is happening now but in reverse. I would say that most of the "Cash Cow" syndrome is from the lack of devices. If you think about it this way, make more available then the demand for used and or clones would lessen. I bet if he started creating more that he would be able to charge $500 for them, but for how long? At some point the market will be saturated and people will stop buying them, or at least at those prices.

It reminds me of when the Strymon Timeline came out. I was on the initial waiting list and got mine but they sold out so quick that the units were then flipped for $800. Then in a month they get back in stock and prices are back down.

And more recently the Sony PS4.. Supply and demand conquers all. I have paid more than double for some things just to "get it now" than to wait but that was my decision.

With the number of Klones that have been built, a one man operation would have never been able to saturate is market...

Sure all the klones have been sold mainly by the hype of non-production of the original...but still is... there was a big demand for is product while building it...

How many years does it makes that P*** C. is building the Tit and Titty? And he still has plenty of demand....

..im gonna make myself a Maxon overdrive pro 820 clone...and see how it sound alongside a Klon...but to do that im gonna build a sunking first.... ;D ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: artstomp on January 23, 2014, 11:25:01 PM
..im gonna make myself a Maxon overdrive pro 820 clone...and see how it sound alongside a Klon...but to do that im gonna build a sunking first.... ;D ;D ;D ;D

Pretty similar, just more focused on the midrange and little less output.

Quote from: GrindCustoms on January 23, 2014, 11:20:03 PM

Quote from: selfdestroyer on January 23, 2014, 11:09:18 PM

Quote from: chromesphere on January 23, 2014, 09:59:13 PM
Imagine it from Bill's point of view though.  Imagine you had that massive cash cow that is the Klon at your feet and people started ripping it off...man I think I would be p1ssed too.  He needs to remember though that ITS STILL A CASH COW.  He could produce and sell a million units to corksniffers at <whatever price he sets>...if he got off his ass and did it. 

Paul

I keep thinking of this and I think we would see the same effects that is happening now but in reverse. I would say that most of the "Cash Cow" syndrome is from the lack of devices. If you think about it this way, make more available then the demand for used and or clones would lessen. I bet if he started creating more that he would be able to charge $500 for them, but for how long? At some point the market will be saturated and people will stop buying them, or at least at those prices.

It reminds me of when the Strymon Timeline came out. I was on the initial waiting list and got mine but they sold out so quick that the units were then flipped for $800. Then in a month they get back in stock and prices are back down.

And more recently the Sony PS4.. Supply and demand conquers all. I have paid more than double for some things just to "get it now" than to wait but that was my decision.

With the number of Klones that have been built, a one man operation would have never been able to saturate is market...

Sure all the klones have been sold mainly by the hype of non-production of the original...but still is... there was a big demand for is product while building it...

How many years does it makes that P*** C. is building the Tit and Titty? And he still has plenty of demand....

Oh I definitely agree with you. Most of the success stories I hear in the pedal/gear business is one or two dudes make a product that the revived well by an audience and they create and build their workplace/staff accordingly. Choosing to do it all by yourself is, what I think, got him in the place he is at now. I think it was Earthquaker Devices that was a one man operation until he started selling regularly and decided he needed a team. Same with Death by Audio, they use friends and band mates to help with builds from what I have read (Bad example I know, since build quality is shown to be not a strong suit of theirs)

This is actually a really fun subject to talk about with others. I would change the product depending on the person I am talking to here at work and ask what they would do it that situation.. fun to hear the responses.

I think the best exemple of a dedicated «one man band» buisness is Mark at BlackArts...

That guy is a Machine!

Quote from: GrindCustoms on January 23, 2014, 11:46:57 PM
I think the best exemple of a dedicated «one man band» buisness is Mark at BlackArts...

That guy is a Machine!

God forbid if "cork sniffers" start dooming out. Mark will need to upgrade his card table.

After following this whole thing I want to ask for thoughts on the Klone market. It doesn't sound like the KTR or any other "original" will be available for the foreseeable future; and for many, building isn't an option. So to condone the secondary Klone market or not?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Quote from: angrykoko on January 23, 2014, 10:57:12 PM
Phew.. just finished my card table.
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5867592448/hA59E027C/)

Win!

I'm only in the prototyping stage of mine. I suspect you will beat me to market.

Quote from: madbean on January 23, 2014, 11:56:03 PM


I'm only in the prototyping stage of mine. I suspect you will beat me to market.

Brian - do you have any idea how much Cherry Coke burns when it leaves through your nose?

Do you know HOW MANY card tables bill tried out before he found the right one? Forget the card table clones guys, its never gunna work.

Im off to ebay to buy out all the NOS card tables before everyone else does.

They won't have the magical legs though. It'll never stand like the "real" table.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Im sorry but you guys started it:

http://www.diyguitarpedals.com.au/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16&products_id=122

I think the madbean forum has started its first meme

I trolled my facebook page yesterday with the card table tone... got some weird PM's from people asking me what it was all about, if something they had'nt heard about yet...

Simply replied, It's the new hype! hahahaha

So much fun with those Klon threads... ;D

I heard that Bill designed the spec for the card table and then hired a team to actually procure it.

Guys, you don't even need a stupid card table! For frank's sake, it's like $10,000 when all you need is like $20 in parts from your local hardware store to build one of this freaking things. Don't even tell me about how the stinking green felt of Bill's originals isn't the same as the stuff from the michaels locally, just shut the front door already.

No seriously, a buddy of mine put my 2x4 and plywood table up beside an actual, hand made by Bill Card Table, and they're identical in every way except in the way they look. They allow you to play cards and hold up your drinks and everything that's important about Card Tables. We did a blind test, and everyone lost just as much money and drank just as much at my card table as compared to when we used Bills.

Wish I shot a video. My buddy has since sold his real Card Table for like 60 grand or something stupid  on Craigslist. Nobody's gonna believe mine's just as good without that video.

Jacob

Yeah I know what your saying Jacob...I just don't get it...the beer tasted so much better on Bills card table then the one that I built...

You guys and your golden taste buds. Bet it wasn't a quadruple blind test. It just tasted better because you wanted it to taste better probably.

I guess you have to justify your 10 grand somehow.

Jacob

Holy crap guys!

I just finally got all this goop off the card table my sisters, boyfriends, brothers best friend got from Bill and I traced it for you guys.

Please keep my name out of the media when sharing this sensitive information.
(http://music.codydeschenes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/50021602-00001.png)

I heard he used special screws though that are out of production.  Will my clone table have the same vibe if I just use common metric screws with the same thread pitch?

Sadly, I cannot find a reliable manufacturer for the 37/15th double threaded locking screws I need for my card table. Therefore I will redoing mine. I guess you could say it is a Card Table Redone.

Quote from: rullywowr on January 24, 2014, 01:51:39 AM
I heard he used special screws though that are out of production.  Will my clone table have the same vibe if I just use common metric screws with the same thread pitch?

No

Quote from: madbean on January 24, 2014, 03:32:13 AM
Sadly, I cannot find a reliable manufacturer for the 37/15th double threaded locking screws I need for my card table. Therefore I will redoing mine. I guess you could say it is a Card Table Redone.

Those 37/15th were outta production decades ago.....sorry :)

Quote from: chromesphere on January 24, 2014, 12:25:11 AM
Im sorry but you guys started it:

http://www.diyguitarpedals.com.au/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16&products_id=122

I know you say you're not making those anymore, but I HAVE to have one. I'd be willing to pay 2-3x the normal cost if you'd just make me one. I won't tell anyone where I got it.

I heard the CTR is being mass produced in China using MDF instead of the old, through hole, Plywood Bill was using before. Dunno, but I heard he went through like 2 years of research on the MDF to make sure it stood up to exactly the same conditions of use the Plywood version could.

He's also gotten some guy named Cochrane (Phil? Peter?) to add a switch the table so you can use it in either 4 legs or no legs. Dunno, but I bet the CRT will probably have me playing Poker like junk compared to how I played on that original Card Table my buddy used to own.

I'm gonna stick to my 2x4 clone of the original Card Table.

Jacob

Guys...GUYS. I put my amp on top of the card table and you wouldn't believe the tone I got. They said surface mount was going to sound different, but they were wrong!

Quote from: jkokura on January 24, 2014, 01:14:25 AM
Guys, you don't even need a stupid card table! For frank's sake, it's like $10,000 when all you need is like $20 in parts from your local hardware store to build one of this freaking things. Don't even tell me about how the stinking green felt of Bill's originals isn't the same as the stuff from the michaels locally, just shut the front door already.

No seriously, a buddy of mine put my 2x4 and plywood table up beside an actual, hand made by Bill Card Table, and they're identical in every way except in the way they look. They allow you to play cards and hold up your drinks and everything that's important about Card Tables. We did a blind test, and everyone lost just as much money and drank just as much at my card table as compared to when we used Bills.

Wish I shot a video. My buddy has since sold his real Card Table for like 60 grand or something stupid  on Craigslist. Nobody's gonna believe mine's just as good without that video.

Jacob

I have what ultimately comes down to a slab of plastic laminated MDF with four tubular legs screwed into it. It cost all of about £20 to assemble and I can't tell the difference between effects made on it and effects made on a 'real' card table.



...actually true...

Quote from: chromesphere on January 24, 2014, 12:25:11 AM
Im sorry but you guys started it:

http://www.diyguitarpedals.com.au/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16&products_id=122

Love it!

Quote from: Clayford on January 24, 2014, 04:26:57 AM

Quote from: chromesphere on January 24, 2014, 12:25:11 AM
Im sorry but you guys started it:

http://www.diyguitarpedals.com.au/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16&products_id=122

I know you say you're not making those anymore, but I HAVE to have one. I'd be willing to pay 2-3x the normal cost if you'd just make me one. I won't tell anyone where I got it.

Np clayford ill put you on the waiting list.  Should have one in stock for you in about 15 years.  Please let me know if you die so the next person can have yours.

you guys ....funniest read in a long time

You know, I had a great idea. I think I found a way for Bill F to double up his production with minimal investment. What do you guys think?

Quote from: madbean on January 24, 2014, 01:29:29 PM
You know, I had a great idea. I think I found a way for Bill F to double up his production with minimal investment. What do you guys think?

An often touted idea by many but stacking doesn't work it will just leed to distortion

Quote from: angrykoko on January 23, 2014, 10:57:12 PM
Phew.. just finished my card table.
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5867592448/hA59E027C/)

Win!

This is amazing.

Edit: Serious addition. A lot of people keep talking about going it alone etc. being part of the problem. I completely agree, and one of the best TED Talks ever talked about how the one thing all highly successful companies have in common is that they're partnerships:
http://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen.html

Quote from: midwayfair on January 24, 2014, 01:54:28 PM

Quote from: angrykoko on January 23, 2014, 10:57:12 PM
Phew.. just finished my card table.
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5867592448/hA59E027C/)

Win!

This is amazing.

Thanks!  My google image search skills know no bounds!

Quote from: danwelsh on January 24, 2014, 04:12:14 AM

Quote from: madbean on January 24, 2014, 03:32:13 AM
Sadly, I cannot find a reliable manufacturer for the 37/15th double threaded locking screws I need for my card table. Therefore I will redoing mine. I guess you could say it is a Card Table Redone.

Those 37/15th were outta production decades ago.....sorry :)

I hear that you can get NOS screws on the second hand market for a reasonable rate.


The question you need to ask is Aluminum or Steel? Don't forget that Bill allegedly used some kind or super special "matched" aluminum screws in his table.

This is so much better than the epic Klon thread about swearing......

Back on point, I head the CTR MDF experiment is nearing completion, but the only people who can fabricate the CTRs - leprechauns, who have a high tendency to cut themselves during production, and rumor is, their spilled blood is what actually makes the CTRs better than all the rest.

And as far as the 37/15 screws go, I do know of a shipment of 74/30 screws manufactured especially for IKEA card tables that are just  sitting in a warehouse somewhere on the North Sea, as IKEA has halted production due to sabre rattling from the CTR guru, maybe we could get our hands on those....

No one's going to be able to tell the difference between a real Card Table, and an old oak solid-as-the-hills kitchen table, once they're all drunk and playing poker.

Hahahahahaha! The table exploded view made me explode!

Quote from: madbean on January 21, 2014, 06:00:27 PM
I've calmed down a bit. I'm glad we are having this conversation here, because I've made my points, and I've agreed with many other things people are saying here; things I don't feel comfortable saying the bazillion Klon threads on TGP (and are wasteful there anyway). I know people here have a more unique perspective (and most likely a bit more informed) in regards to our viewpoints on the pedal business, building, etc.

In any case, I have a lot of respect for what he's accomplished. Hopefully I did not put too many bad vibes in this thread!

Really nice statement here.

This thread offers great perspective.

Quote from: GermanCdn on January 24, 2014, 03:03:21 PM
This is so much better than the epic Klon thread about swearing......

Bollocks.




;)

:D [you really need to look at all of it, there's a ton of Klon talk]

Quote from: chromesphere on January 24, 2014, 10:07:01 AM

Quote from: Clayford on January 24, 2014, 04:26:57 AM

Quote from: chromesphere on January 24, 2014, 12:25:11 AM
Im sorry but you guys started it:

http://www.diyguitarpedals.com.au/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16&products_id=122

I know you say you're not making those anymore, but I HAVE to have one. I'd be willing to pay 2-3x the normal cost if you'd just make me one. I won't tell anyone where I got it.

Np clayford ill put you on the waiting list.  Should have one in stock for you in about 15 years.  Please let me know if you die so the next person can have yours.

(http://img.over-blog-kiwi.com/0/50/25/69/201306/ob_1fe8d4c3298bd0b899d6590fd87728e4_1371649740-j8w-jpg.jpeg)

Quote from: Cortexturizer on January 25, 2014, 12:31:33 AM

:D [you really need to look at all of it, there's a ton of Klon talk]

The best thing about that is that the Klone with the Joker on it was one of mine  ;D

(http://juansolo.demon.co.uk/stompage/images/klon4-o.jpg)

That pedal is erotic.