Been jonesing for one of these for years. Saw one on Reverb the other day for a stupid-low price and just had to have it. GAS got me. 8)
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh218/reverse_engineer/NPD2_zps044f0731.jpg)
So I'm testing this thing earlier and I'm thinking that the new Chinese BBDs they put in there (I assumed Belling BL3208) are sounding especially amazing. I pop the hood to see what's going on, when I see a row of four MN3008s. :o Then it makes sense to me why it came with a special-tipped 24V DC wall wart. :D
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh218/reverse_engineer/dmmxo-guts_zps59b47304.jpg)
I don't see any op amps, so I'm going to assume they are all on the bottom side (SMD).
Anyway, I'm digging the tones. I don't much care for the Vibrato modulation, but the Chorus set with low depth is, for me, the classic modulated delay sound. Max delay time is just over half a second. Maxed out it's a little noisy, but totally well within the acceptable range. Considering the low price I got, I'm chuffed all around with this purchase. ;D
Nice score!
Josh
That is a nice score, for sure. Even more proof why the DIY community needs an analog delay layout that uses four MN3008s!
Noooo, stick to stuff in production. BL3208s x4.
Pure jealousy! Nice score!
Quote from: juansolo on February 20, 2014, 06:49:32 PM
Noooo, stick to stuff in production. BL3208s x4.
I asked Brian about this quite some time ago and he seemed keen on the idea. Maybe we could renew our calls for such a circuit. Really, I think reworking the Dirtbag for 4x BL3208 would be perfect.
I think a hybrid would be cool as well. Like 2x BL3208 and 1x PT2399. Soulsonic used to make a delay that had a MN3005 and a 2399. The BBD did the shorter times, and then you could kick in the 2399 for longer times (it was in series). Man, I shouldn't have sold that pedal. ;D
i keep hoping for a 2xmn3005 big box will cross my path one day
great score there, however.
Quote from: culturejam on February 21, 2014, 01:52:56 AM
Quote from: juansolo on February 20, 2014, 06:49:32 PM
Noooo, stick to stuff in production. BL3208s x4.
I asked Brian about this quite some time ago and he seemed keen on the idea. Maybe we could renew our calls for such a circuit. Really, I think reworking the Dirtbag for 4x BL3208 would be perfect.
I think a hybrid would be cool as well. Like 2x BL3208 and 1x PT2399. Soulsonic used to make a delay that had a MN3005 and a 2399. The BBD did the shorter times, and then you could kick in the 2399 for longer times (it was in series). Man, I shouldn't have sold that pedal. ;D
I vote for the hybrid!
I've been meaning to do something one day like the MXR carbon copy which uses the BL3208's. I really love that delay.
Josh
Quote from: culturejam on February 21, 2014, 01:52:56 AM
Quote from: juansolo on February 20, 2014, 06:49:32 PM
Noooo, stick to stuff in production. BL3208s x4.
I asked Brian about this quite some time ago and he seemed keen on the idea. Maybe we could renew our calls for such a circuit. Really, I think reworking the Dirtbag for 4x BL3208 would be perfect.
I think a hybrid would be cool as well. Like 2x BL3208 and 1x PT2399. Soulsonic used to make a delay that had a MN3005 and a 2399. The BBD did the shorter times, and then you could kick in the 2399 for longer times (it was in series). Man, I shouldn't have sold that pedal. ;D
Both ideas sound really cool. I really do think we need a BBD delay like the DMM that doesn't rely on getting hold of MN3005s to sound good. I'd even break my 'no more BBD delays' rule if that happened.
That would depend on whether they're as noisy and bad as the v3205d chips.
Allegedly they're better and I *think* you can run them at 12v for a little more headroom.
Yeah, likewise. Not interested in V3205s either. Really just the BL ICs being used in either a 4x delay, or that hybrid.
I suppose at a push you could do a 4x / hybrid MN3008... But how long before the situation with those gets as daft as it is for the 3005s?
Exactly. I'm hesitant to rely on out-of-production BBD chips these days, and the in-production ones are not as good.
Congrats CJ nice score mate. Slightly OT, but i read this thread and i've read many like it and have always wondered, why are these things obsolete? Surely, the manufacturer would still be able to produce them and others, if there was a dollar to be made. I wonder what the number would be, to make it worth their while? Are they aware of the pedal building community at all. I'm sure i'm not the first to ask this question, and there's probably a good reason why they don't produce certain things anymore$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Anybody in touch with panasonic, fairchild, reticon :) :) :)
its been asked before and was in the order of $40k IIRC
Quote from: LaceSensor on February 21, 2014, 01:58:27 PM
its been asked before and was in the order of $40k IIRC
If you are lucky. I looked into it a bit and those numbers are largely based on the fab process running smoothly. If it doesn't, it can escalate fairly quickly. I actually spoke to somewhat recently who was involved in BBD production on a fab level and it was apparently a bit fiddly. He couldn't go into what issues they were having.
Quote from: juansolo on February 21, 2014, 10:10:35 AM
Allegedly they're better and I *think* you can run them at 12v for a little more headroom.
They are definitely better (way less noise) in my opinion. Max voltage is 10V, according to the data sheet:
http://www.belling.com.cn/products/prod_pdf/bl3208-e.pdf
What you could do is set up a charge pump to give the audio path 18v, then run a 9V regulator to the BBD, but add a silicon diode between the ground terminal and ground to force the regulator to output 9.7V for a tiny little bit more headroom. ;)
I first started paying attention to the BLs after I got an EHX Memory Toy. They are very nice BBDs, all things considered.
Also, that's what chip is in the EchoCzar (even though the numbers are sanded off). That level of corksniffery ought to tell you something. ;D
Quote from: pickdropper on February 21, 2014, 02:21:20 PM
Quote from: LaceSensor on February 21, 2014, 01:58:27 PM
its been asked before and was in the order of $40k IIRC
If you are lucky. I looked into it a bit and those numbers are largely based on the fab process running smoothly. If it doesn't, it can escalate fairly quickly. I actually spoke to somewhat recently who was involved in BBD production on a fab level and it was apparently a bit fiddly. He couldn't go into what issues they were having.
I heard quotes more along the lines of $250k to fully resurrect the Panasonic MN3005 fab line. It's not an insurmountable price by any means, but it's one hell of a commitment for a pedal company to make. A consortium of many companies would be a more likely suitor, but that could get complicated.
If I ever won the lottery I'd resurrect these chips for sure
It would be just lovely if there was a project like that ( BL or hybrid)!
But I don't think I've ever seen BL ICs for sale somewhere. Maybe I haven't searched enough..
Hector
Mammoth has the BL3208 for $3.50. At that price, you could buy double what you need and audition the chips to keep only the best sounding ones. 8)
I friend of mine used to be in IC fabrication and I asked the question. Given the costs involved and the severely limited market, I think you can forget the MN3005 ever being resurrected. The numbers get very large, very quickly.
I honestly think the MN3208 is probably a more realistic bet to see resurrected, but given that the BL3208 chip is being used now (which is basically an MN3208 I believe) I figure that it would be better to see more effort put into that chip than trying to resurrect the old Panasonic line.
There's so much mystique surrounding the MN3005, and the SAD and Reticon chips. They're great yeah, but I line up my Timeline next to my Dirtbag with MN3005's and in a band I can't tell the difference.
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on February 22, 2014, 07:06:29 PM
There's so much mystique surrounding the MN3005, and the SAD and Reticon chips. They're great yeah, but I line up my Timeline next to my Dirtbag with MN3005's and in a band I can't tell the difference.
Once you have a drummer in the mix, the bad acoustics of most venues, and any number of other detail-killing factors, you can't tell the difference between a Behringer and an Echoplex. :)
Quote from: culturejam on February 23, 2014, 04:27:21 AM
you can't tell the difference between a Behringer and an Echoplex. :)
False...
I can tell that as a player. As an audience member I usually can't tell the brand, but I can say if it's a cheapo pedal or an actual tape delay.
But be that as it may, If I can't record with it and have it sound good, I wouldn't be using it live. Thing is, there are a number of devices out there that sound perfectly good for recording. I used to sneer at the Boss CH-1, their cheapo digital chorus, but I don't any longer. I realized that I can get a great recorded sound with one, and they're perfectly adequate for live use. Same with the MXR Carbon Copy - great sounding pedal that uses those BL3208s I believe.
Point being - I'd love the MN3005s to come back, but I think more realistic we should try and get someone to resurrect or replace the MN3205s for us. They're more accessible I think.
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on February 23, 2014, 04:53:16 AM
Quote from: culturejam on February 23, 2014, 04:27:21 AM
you can't tell the difference between a Behringer and an Echoplex. :)
False...
I can tell that as a player. As an audience member I usually can't tell the brand, but I can say if it's a cheapo pedal or an actual tape delay.
But be that as it may, If I can't record with it and have it sound good, I wouldn't be using it live. Thing is, there are a number of devices out there that sound perfectly good for recording. I used to sneer at the Boss CH-1, their cheapo digital chorus, but I don't any longer. I realized that I can get a great recorded sound with one, and they're perfectly adequate for live use. Same with the MXR Carbon Copy - great sounding pedal that uses those BL3208s I believe.
Point being - I'd love the MN3005s to come back, but I think more realistic we should try and get someone to resurrect or replace the MN3205s for us. They're more accessible I think.
Jacob
Stranger things have happened. :-)
Are their smd variants in plentiful supply? I know that's sort of a 4-letter word for some folks but it would seem like a small price to pay.
I see the BL3208s are in 2 different packages...
DIP-8 like a standard dual op amp type IC and....
DIP-16 (with only 4 legs) just like the ole' MN3005 and MN3008s
Is there a difference beyond the packaging?
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on February 24, 2014, 06:19:39 PM
Is there a difference beyond the packaging?
The data sheet says no difference other than size and pin assignments.
Modern production allows shrinking, the original MN3004 is a 14-Pin DIP with unused pins but by the time it got to the MN3204, down to an 8-Pin DIP.
The BL3208 is as close to a clone of the MN3208 as we'll see and is a good chip, I couldn't say what, if any differences it has to the original production die (it may be spot on) the v3205s has production issues sadly but hey, maybe it'll get fixed... or they'll stop making it. Some of the issues we have with it though are dropping it in circuits not really designed for it too.
There are no SMD BBDs, the technology is out dated now and can be replaced with digital with better results for the markets these products are actually aimed at which ain't us, pedals are a surprisingly small market to these guys and DIY is like a speck in that.