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Projects => Tech Help - Projects Page => Topic started by: Guybrush on March 11, 2014, 12:41:35 AM

Title: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guybrush on March 11, 2014, 12:41:35 AM
Hey all

I'm having a second go at building MusicPCB's Tap Tempo Tremolo after screwing my first attempt up beyond repair.

Just hooked it up to my test rig and surprise surprise, it doesn't work. Sound in bypass but nothing when the effect is engaged.

I got my audio probe out connected it to the out lead on my test rig and started poking around. I found that I get tremolo at pin 7 of the TL072 chip, which turns to clean signal when I switch the effect off. Great news!

My question is, can I just run a wire with a 1uf electro cap from the underside of pin 7 to the top right lug (using Madbeads standard wiring diagram) of my 3pdt and just forget the out wire from the board? Surely this is all that is happening while it's on my test rig?

Hope that makes sense.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: jkokura on March 11, 2014, 02:27:58 AM
I think it sorta makes sense, but I'd suggest you work a little bit longer and find out why your signal isn't getting to the output. I don't have a schem in front of me just this moment, but methinks it shouldn't be too hard to trace the problem down if you know your LFO is working.

Jacob
Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guybrush on March 11, 2014, 08:09:03 AM
Cheers for the reply Jacob.

Ok, so I have traced the dry signal path with my audio probe using the below image that Guitarmageddon kindly drew for last time I tried building this.

(http://i.imgur.com/RKIDLOD.jpg)

With the effect engaged I get clean signal up to point 4. At point 5 (pin 2 of the IC) it goes dead. I've reflowed the solder joint to pin 2 of the IC socket but still no luck.

Here is the schematic:

(http://i.imgur.com/KeeHIlF.jpg)

Thanks again for your help.
Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: jkokura on March 11, 2014, 03:59:45 PM
Okay. So if you're losing signal at the entry point on the IC, there are couple potential problems.

1. Proper power is not getting to the IC.
2. You have a solder bridge with any of the various parts that all connect to the joint in question
3. The IC is bad (happens less than %1 of the time)

What voltages are you getting on that IC?

Jacob
Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guybrush on March 11, 2014, 09:27:24 PM
Hey Jacob.

I lost my temper with it and just soldered the out lead to the IC. It's working but there's some horrendous ticking in certain settings. That'll teach me for not being patient!

Thanks for your help.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: midwayfair on March 11, 2014, 09:43:29 PM
Quote from: Guybrush on March 11, 2014, 09:27:24 PM
Hey Jacob.

I lost my temper with it and just soldered the out lead to the IC. It's working but there's some horrendous ticking in certain settings. That'll teach me for not being patient!

Thanks for your help.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

check that the 330pF cap is actually connected to the op amp. If it isn't, you'll hear ticking.
Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guybrush on March 11, 2014, 10:51:27 PM
I took the cap out and the ticking wasn't affected one way or the other. I tried loads of different caps up to 1uF but there was no difference at all.

There's obviously something wrong and my stupid 'fix' has no doubt confused matters.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guybrush on April 06, 2014, 06:36:20 PM
Sorry to drag up an old thread but I've decided to stop being lazy and try and fix this properly. Can anyone help?

Voltages from the ICs are as fikkoes:

TapLFO

1- 5.03
2- 2.18
3- 2.00
4- 5.02
5- DMM doesn't settle. Ranges from 2.19 to 2.61
6- 01.9mv
7- DMM doesn't settle. Ranges from 2.03 to 2.96
8- 5.02
9- 5.03
10- 5.03
11- 00.5mv
12- 2.24
13- 5.03
14- 0.01mv

TL072

1- 4.52
2- 4.52
3- 4.49
4- 0.05mv
5- 4.49
6- 4.52
7- 4.53
8- 9.06

Does anyone know of these look right?
Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guitarmageddon on May 06, 2014, 08:42:15 PM
TL072 voltages look fine. Try swapping the chip (and double check it's orientation)
Look for shorts to ground at points 8 and up too. (DMM set to continuity)
Sent you a Pm too. ;)
Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: bcalla on May 06, 2014, 10:28:38 PM
If you read the build thread on DIYSB, you'll see that ticking is a common problem with the TTT.  I'd break this into 2 separate problems.  Get the tremolo to your output, then work on the ticking.
Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guybrush on May 07, 2014, 07:12:43 PM
Cheers guys. I don't have a replacement chip at the moment but will get a couple orderd today.

I can't spot any solder bridges that could be causing a short.

There are definitely (at least) 2 issues to iron out. I think the best course of action is to get some output and then tackle the ticking. I know some ticking is to be expected but I'm sure the amount I'm getting is not normal. Here are some photos that will hopefully help.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/08/ysehedu8.jpg)

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/08/yzapamus.jpg)

Thanks again
Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guitarmageddon on May 08, 2014, 12:10:40 AM
Everyone of these I've built ticked at first. Worry about that latter.
You said you'd wired the output direct to the IC, where did you connect it?
Is it the same ic you used for your first build? I'd certainly try another.
I see you've got the gain control as an external pot. Does any signal reach it?
Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guybrush on May 08, 2014, 01:10:57 PM
Pretty sure it is a new IC. I was getting signal with lots of ticking when I connected the output to lug 7 of the chip. This bodge fix has now been undone and I'm back to not getting any sound when the effect is engaged.

I've just hooked it back up to my test rig and gone over it with my audio probe. I am getting perfect tremolo with only very minor ticking (in extreme settings) when I touch the probe to the below indicated point on the external gain knob. The pad is connected to lug 1 of the pot.

(http://i.imgur.com/OJkhsay.jpg)

I guess I coud do the same thing I did before and solder the output to the pot lug (instead of the IC lug) but it'd be good to know why it isn't working as intended.

Thanks
Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: bcalla on May 08, 2014, 03:45:09 PM
Have you tried posting in the "Building the tap tempo tremolo" thread at DIYSB?  Taylor monitors that thread & helps people troubleshoot.
Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guybrush on May 08, 2014, 04:31:36 PM
Yep. I drew a blank over there I'm afraid.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guitarmageddon on May 08, 2014, 10:33:25 PM
Since you're only a cap and a pull down resistor from the output,
a) the problem has to be there (1M shorting straight to ground- wrong value or bad resistor [I've never actually seen one tho])
b) It's pretty easy just to wire this part off-board.

My guess, and I know from bitter experience, is that the board is damaged. I've found these multilayer boards have no tolerance for de-soldering of any kind. 
Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guybrush on May 08, 2014, 11:08:14 PM
Quote from: Guitarmageddon on May 08, 2014, 10:33:25 PM
Since you're only a cap and a pull down resistor from the output,
a) the problem has to be there (1M shorting straight to ground- wrong value or bad resistor [I've never actually seen one tho])
b) It's pretty easy just to wire this part off-board.

My guess, and I know from bitter experience, is that the board is damaged. I've found these multilayer boards have no tolerance for de-soldering of any kind.

Ahh ok. Please could you mark on the photo which cap and resistor you mean? I'm crap at following schematics.
Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guitarmageddon on May 09, 2014, 05:57:11 AM
The cap is the 1uf at points 12 & 13 on my old illustration, and the resistor is the 1M to it's left.
You will have continuity to ground at the 1Ms top end, but shouldn't at the other or from either end of the cap.
Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guybrush on May 09, 2014, 09:36:26 AM
Great stuff. I will check later today.

Thanks again!

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guybrush on May 09, 2014, 02:24:55 PM
Checked both components and there's no ground connection other than the top side of the resistor. Maybe one of them is bust. I'll have a look at removing them but it might just be easier for me to connect the output (and a capacitor) to the gain pot lug as I mentioned above.

Would there be any downside to me doing this? What do the resistor and cap I am bypassing add to the circuit?

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: midwayfair on May 09, 2014, 04:40:05 PM
Quote from: Guybrush on May 09, 2014, 02:24:55 PM
Would there be any downside to me doing this? What do the resistor and cap I am bypassing add to the circuit?

The resistor is a pull-down, to prevent pops. The capacitor is extremely important: It's the decoupling capacitor to remove DC. If you simply put the output to your amp, you have 4.5V of DC instead of the normal 0DC. If you plug it into an amp without an input cap, that's more than enough DC to destroy a tube (and possibly a lot more). It might work for your amp -- most modern production amps have an input cap -- but you don't want to risk plugging it into something else and destroying the amp.
Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guybrush on May 09, 2014, 04:50:00 PM
Cheers Jon.

I guess I could simply wire the resistor and cap off board between the pot lug and output?

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guitarmageddon on May 09, 2014, 09:59:25 PM
Yep, attach the cap to the gain pot, it's other end is the output and will go to your stomp switch, 1M there output to ground.
Title: Re: Tap Tempo Tremolo Again
Post by: Guybrush on May 09, 2014, 11:47:56 PM
Worked a treat! Thank you so much for all your assistance. And thanks to everyone else who has also helped.

If it wasn't quarter to one in the morning here in the UK I'd be cranking my amp and blasting out How Soon is Now by the Smiths with my now fully working trem!

The neighbours are in for treat in the morning! ;-)

Thanks again.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk