Odale Carnals!
I want to start really understanding PCB layouts and home etching. Would ordering this book be a good place to start? I read a couple threads that mentioned the book, but was curious if anyone had any other suggestions or if this is the right place to start?
Is that RG's book? I think it's good quality but a little dated. I think you'd learn lots from it, but the info is probably available around here and the rest of the inter web too.
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on May 01, 2014, 09:33:38 PM
Is that RG's book? I think it's good quality but a little dated. I think you'd learn lots from it, but the info is probably available around here and the rest of the inter web too.
Jacob
thats the one! And yea I know what you mean. I've learned so much already just searching for posts on that book already! Thanks Jacob!
P.S.
I'm super pumped for my testing rig to arrive!
Honestly man, I googled "Etching" and visited the general guitar gadgets page and printed my first PCB design on magazine paper. I ran to radioshack and bought their ferric chloride, busted out my iron, and got going! Just take the plunge. I would recommend getting some blue press n peel from steve @ small bear for printing designs on. I've also heard that glossy photo paper works and is cheaper. Other essentials- a few different sized sharpies (ferric chloride doesn't eat through permanent marker, so you can redraw traces that didn't transfer well) a good iron, access to a laser printer, and lots of little plastic containers. Be warned though- Once you start etching, (at least for me) kiss the next few months' free time goodbye. You won't be able to stop!
I bought that book a few months after I started trying to design my own PCBs. It is well written and thought out. The info is organized pretty clearly.
However, I can say by the time I got it I figured out most of the material for myself just by doing doing it over and over. I think the best way to learn is to study other people's layouts and see how they arrange things. For me, I looked at a lot of the Tonepad and GeneralGuitarGadgets layouts to try and breakdown how they were designed. There is nothing wrong with going the "book" route, but I suggest just jumping in first and try a couple simple designs. Get a feel for it. It's more fun than trying to get through a bunch of text and then applying it. Gain a little experience first, then the information will be absorbed much more easily.
The main things to remember are: have the right component library (which you do...just use mine!), know what size enclosure you are designing for, put the pots and I/O pads in sensible places (pots at the top, I/O at the bottom as one example) and group relevant portions of the circuit together. Place power sections away from the audio path when possible, keep high gain portions away from low gain, keep other noise sources isolated as much as possible (like LFOs) and make use as few jumpers as you can (if designing a single sided board).
It's tempting to just jump into designing double sided boards because it's awfully convenient to get those PCBs made cheaply. However, you will learn a HELL of a lot better if you try doing just single sided designs first. If you master that, double sided is a cakewalk...it will feel like cheating because it is so much easier.
Someday, when I have nothing but free time, I plan on putting together my own manifesto on PCB design for the website....just like all that other stuff I'm gonna do. Yeah.
thanks for a great synopsis, Brian ... that'll help my efforts with learning layout in Eagle
Madbean, Are we not saying "Phrasing" anymore.. when did not become a thing anymore? LOL
QuoteI plan on putting together my own manifesto on PCB design for the website....just like all that other stuff I'm gonna do.
If I gave you some money from my pocket will that help? haha I can only imagine the vast knowledge you have learned from all the layouts you have accomplished. I would love a small insight on that.
Love the new Archer pic.
Cody
Quote from: madbean on May 02, 2014, 12:19:16 AM
I bought that book a few months after I started trying to design my own PCBs. It is well written and thought out. The info is organized pretty clearly.
However, I can say by the time I got it I figured out most of the material for myself just by doing doing it over and over. I think the best way to learn is to study other people's layouts and see how they arrange things. For me, I looked at a lot of the Tonepad and GeneralGuitarGadgets layouts to try and breakdown how they were designed. There is nothing wrong with going the "book" route, but I suggest just jumping in first and try a couple simple designs. Get a feel for it. It's more fun than trying to get through a bunch of text and then applying it. Gain a little experience first, then the information will be absorbed much more easily.
The main things to remember are: have the right component library (which you do...just use mine!), know what size enclosure you are designing for, put the pots and I/O pads in sensible places (pots at the top, I/O at the bottom as one example) and group relevant portions of the circuit together. Place power sections away from the audio path when possible, keep high gain portions away from low gain, keep other noise sources isolated as much as possible (like LFOs) and make use as few jumpers as you can (if designing a single sided board).
It's tempting to just jump into designing double sided boards because it's awfully convenient to get those PCBs made cheaply. However, you will learn a HELL of a lot better if you try doing just single sided designs first. If you master that, double sided is a cakewalk...it will feel like cheating because it is so much easier.
Someday, when I have nothing but free time, I plan on putting together my own manifesto on PCB design for the website....just like all that other stuff I'm gonna do. Yeah.
Wow man, I can't thank you enough for this information along with all other info and this forum. This is extremely helpful and exactly what I was looking for. I really think that wrapping my head around this process will start to get me to the next level in regard to really understanding what is going on inside a guitar pedal. As far a double sided vs single sided boards, I'm not really sure I even know what that means? Well I guess i do, it means I got me some learning to do! I'm going to take your advice and jump in, it just seems a bit daunting at first. However, hearing how someone at your level got to where to you are is indispensable and inspiring. So...here's go nothing!!!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: madbean on May 02, 2014, 12:19:16 AM
Someday, when I have nothing but free time, I plan on putting together my own manifesto on PCB design for the website....just like all that other stuff I'm gonna do. Yeah.
I think it would be cool if multiple board designers all each wrote their own philosophy of board design and then published it in one book. Like a self-publishing type thing, such as can be done on lulu.com.
Quote from: culturejam on May 02, 2014, 07:22:00 PM
Quote from: madbean on May 02, 2014, 12:19:16 AM
Someday, when I have nothing but free time, I plan on putting together my own manifesto on PCB design for the website....just like all that other stuff I'm gonna do. Yeah.
I think it would be cool if multiple board designers all each wrote their own philosophy of board design and then published it in one book. Like a self-publishing type thing, such as can be done on lulu.com.
Brilliant idea. A collective would be awesome.
Cody
Quote from: selfdestroyer on May 02, 2014, 07:31:04 PM
Quote from: culturejam on May 02, 2014, 07:22:00 PM
Quote from: madbean on May 02, 2014, 12:19:16 AM
Someday, when I have nothing but free time, I plan on putting together my own manifesto on PCB design for the website....just like all that other stuff I'm gonna do. Yeah.
I think it would be cool if multiple board designers all each wrote their own philosophy of board design and then published it in one book. Like a self-publishing type thing, such as can be done on lulu.com.
Brilliant idea. A collective would be awesome.
I call "Editor"!!! ;D
I know somebody who can proof read it and tell us all the areas in which we are wrong. ;D
This is pretty dense, info packed...
http://www.alternatezone.com/electronics/files/PCBDesignTutorialRevA.pdf
I bought a copper clad board from radio shack to give this a shot (after I read...alot) and realized it is double sided. Can I still use that, or do I need to get a single sided board?
sidenote: is a double sided board the kind you use for the double sided board layouts that I should avoid until I have a bit more experience?
Yes, you can still use it. The unused side will just dissolve when etching.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
Quote from: twin1965 on May 06, 2014, 09:10:27 PM
Yes, you can still use it. The unused side will just dissolve when etching.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
Haha that would make sense! Thanks man :-[
Quote from: upthepunxxx on May 07, 2014, 12:44:08 AM
Quote from: twin1965 on May 06, 2014, 09:10:27 PM
Yes, you can still use it. The unused side will just dissolve when etching.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
Haha that would make sense! Thanks man :-[
I just had a couple questions I was finding online. What do you guys do with the used etchant? Ferric chloride to be exact. Also have you guys tried the sponge method?
As far as drilling what size bits do you use. I bought some really small ones like 1/32 and 3/64 and those seem to match the sizes on the madbean and jmk boards I have. But they don't fit in my drill press. Do you guys use like a smaller hobby press or something or some sort of chuck adaptor? Anyways hope everyone had a killer holiday weekend! Thanks so much for taking the time to read this thread. It is very seriously greatly appreciated!
For drill bits, carbide #71 covers just about everything (next time i'll get a #70) and where needed, a #65 for big diodes and 22awg wire (again, next time one size bigger, #64). The tiny carbide bits all have a 1/8" base so easy to chuck in a regular chuck but i found my big press really didn't appreciate being run continuously at top speed for an hour at a time so went back to using a dremel press.
dave
Quote from: davent on May 27, 2014, 10:22:46 PM
For drill bits, carbide #71 covers just about everything (next time i'll get a #70) and where needed, a #65 for big diodes and 22awg wire (again, next time one size bigger, #64). The tiny carbide bits all have a 1/8" base so easy to chuck in a regular chuck but i found my big press really didn't appreciate being run continuously at top speed for an hour at a time so went back to using a dremel press.
dave
Thanks! So I should buy #70, #71, #65 & #64 and I should be covered?
I bought this set for $5.50 free ship and works for my needs perfectly:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10Pcs-PCB-Print-Circuit-Board-Carbide-Micro-Drill-Bits-Tool-0-3mm-to-1-2-mm-New-/121321280389?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3f4fd385
Quote from: upthepunxxx on May 28, 2014, 06:20:09 PM
Quote from: davent on May 27, 2014, 10:22:46 PM
For drill bits, carbide #71 covers just about everything (next time i'll get a #70) and where needed, a #65 for big diodes and 22awg wire (again, next time one size bigger, #64). The tiny carbide bits all have a 1/8" base so easy to chuck in a regular chuck but i found my big press really didn't appreciate being run continuously at top speed for an hour at a time so went back to using a dremel press.
dave
Thanks! So I should buy #70, #71, #65 & #64 and I should be covered?
Carbide bits are extremely fragile at this size so you really want multiples of the sizes you do use, they break long before they wear out. I drill everything first with the #71 then go back and redrill those that need to be bigger. Always with a drill press and no wobble. The odd much bigger size needed gets enlarged with cheap HSS bits as these are easy for me to get hold of and robust enough to drill with freehand.
#71 is fine until you need to change out a component then the tight squeeze can make it a bit of a challenge hence next time i'll get the bigger #70 and the #64 vs#65.
The ones i'm using came from Drill Bit City but i see now Small Bear is stocking carbides as well.
http://drillcity.stores.yahoo.net/newtuncardri.html
Oh ok, got it. Im gonna order the 5 packs from that site of 70s & 64s. Is it worth it to order new bits? Or did you order the re sharpened bits?
Quote from: davent on May 28, 2014, 07:09:07 PM
Carbide bits are extremely fragile at this size so you really want multiples of the sizes you do use, they break long before they wear out. I drill everything first with the #71 then go back and redrill those that need to be bigger. Always with a drill press and no wobble. The odd much bigger size needed gets enlarged with cheap HSS bits as these are easy for me to get hold of and robust enough to drill with freehand.
#71 is fine until you need to change out a component then the tight squeeze can make it a bit of a challenge hence next time i'll get the bigger #70 and the #64 vs#65.
The ones i'm using came from Drill Bit City but i see now Small Bear is stocking carbides as well.
http://drillcity.stores.yahoo.net/newtuncardri.html
I grabbed a few from Smallbear awhile back and they work great with my drill press.
http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=1442 (http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=1442)
Cody
Had a look and found the receipt, 2009, the prices are the same as the present day new bits prices so i guess i bought new bits, can't comment on the resharpened bits but if that means the working shaft is shorter, i'd get those. For pcb work we only need to be able to drill through a 1/16" piece of fiberglass. My new bits have a 1/2" long shaft, if they were just long enough to go through the pcb the chances of breaking them would be tremendously reduced.
And when they do break, there's usually enough shaft left to continue using them but you have to have better aim while drilling.
dave
All the bits I have ever used have been the resharpened ones. I got a huge pack from ebay a year ago and still have been using them. The Smallbear ones I got were just a few odd sizes I needed for a project. The resharpened ones have no issues with my drill press and FR4 that I have found. Cuts clean and like butter.
Cody
I use 0.8 mm almost exclusively. Great results with dremel drill press at max speed.
Thanks so much homies! I just ordered packs of 5 of the recommended sizes. I bought resharpened and a coupe new to see if I could tell the difference. I'm gonna try my drill press for now but if it's to wobbly I might by a dremel stand and give that a shot. I will keep you posted. I plan on doing a post for my etch once it's done and (fingers crossed) working. I already made the board and it was a ton of fun! Now I'm curious to see if it works!
Hi Guys!
I did it! I etched my first PCB, and drilled it! I took the advice from this post and ordered some carbide 1/8in shank bits from drill city and they worked perfect with my press. Unfortunately the board doesnt exactly work, but I figure thats an even better reason to finish up my JMK Testing rig and see whats up. I've never really drilled anything that small before so I have a feeling I may have messed up some holes and possibly created solder bridges or disrupted connections. Not sure.
Also Cody's PCB Etching tutorial was extremely helpful. Thanks for helping me out with this doodes! This place is the best. Everyone was right, now I just want to hole up in my room and start etching some boards, maybe get one that works. Hopefully once I get some under my belt they will look a little nicer and maybe work.
Here are some pics:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/121224112@N02/sets/72157644605893387/
Great job on the etch and build. Now get ready for the pedal building addiction to escalate exponentially. One thing I do also is I wet sand the FR4 side of the board along with the copper side after my drilling just to make sure all burrs and FR4 tidbits are removed. Might help with unwanted bridges.
Cody
Thanks Cody! Ill give that a shot. I'm gonna trouble shoot this one for a bit, but not spend too much time on it. I think it might be more beneficial (and possibly more fun) to just get started on a another one and apply this new tip. I figure the more I get under my belt the better. Plus, its so damn fun!!
Quote from: selfdestroyer on June 05, 2014, 12:36:42 AM
Great job on the etch and build. Now get ready for the pedal building addiction to escalate exponentially. One thing I do also is I wet sand the FR4 side of the board along with the copper side after my drilling just to make sure all burrs and FR4 tidbits are removed. Might help with unwanted bridges.
Cody
After wet sanding you can go for the bling, Mother's metal polish.
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/davent/IMG_3742.jpg)
dave
So after the wet sand you use this stuff to make it look all pretty & shiny like that?
http://www.amazon.com/Mothers-05106-Billet-Metal-Polish/dp/B000COU7LG
Quote from: davent on June 05, 2014, 07:33:48 PM
After wet sanding you can go for the bling, Mother's metal polish.
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/davent/IMG_3742.jpg)
dave
Yup, serves no purpose... unless you're needing a mirror. Mothers Mag and Aluminum Polish.
But if you are going to do something like that make sure you clear over it at some point to preserve it. It will just tarnish over time.
Cody
Yes exactly. I use clear lacquer which prevents the tarnishing and vaporizes upon contact with the hot iron, so totally compatable with soldering. Tried Liquid Tin after the copper polishing but the results looked pretty mediocre.
dave
So after you use the polish you spray it with like a clear coat? And you are still able to solder on it? You were saying this whole process is a bit unnecessary and purely cosmetic correct? I'm a bit of an OCD neat freak and the idea of a board staying nice and shinny for longer than normal seems extremely enticing. Maybe its an LA thing 8) I blame my parents for birthing me here!
Quote from: davent on June 05, 2014, 09:28:56 PM
Yes exactly. I use clear lacquer which prevents the tarnishing and vaporizes upon contact with the hot iron, so totally compatable with soldering. Tried Liquid Tin after the copper polishing but the results looked pretty mediocre.
dave