Just curious if people on here liked them, used them, etc.
One of the reasons I bought an amp again recently (sold most of my hardware/gear years ago) is because I wasn't liking the tones I was getting recording direct with amp sims. I still think they are cool and can be used creatively but I think they just can't nail a true tube sound. They have gotten a whole lot better in the last 5 years but don't know if they will ever be able to truly capture a true tube tone.
Discuss
I think sims have their place but can't replace capturing a real amp with a good mic.
What do you guys think of stuff like the runoffgroove condor?
I once did a comparo using SimulAnalogue JCM800 plugin by putting that on the (?) channel, mixed 100% to that side, and my miced VS102r (a marshall valvestate amp) 100% on the other on a complete song. I then posted the mix on the ntrack forum to see if people could tell the which was which in the context of the mix.
The results were about 50/50 correct/wrong iirc, but I also invited the plugin designers to have a listen. They got it.... wrong, because they thought they could hear the cab resonance they programmed into the plugin on the real-amp channel.
I'm not sure ultimately what that means - maybe I did a crap job of recording the amp, maybe it's just a crap amp to start with, but I think the point is that it's not necessarily the source, it's the context.
This was probably... 7 years ago at least, so I don't think you'll find the thread on the nTrack forum anymore, BUT, you can hear it here:
https://soundcloud.com/william-phillips-9/lazy-gene-theory-way-you-look
Go on, have a listen and tell me which one is the VST...
That plugin is nearly a standard go-to for me when I'm tracking guitars. It's just a good basic rock amp, and I have a sneaking suspicion it's on all the tracks I have on that soundcloud page in some capacity.
http://www.simulanalog.org/guitarsuite.htm
If I'm feeling adventurous, I'll use a freebie vst ampsim (lepou, acmebargig, ect) and a cab impulse or two (I have recabinet, amongst a stack of others), but really... how many options do you want?
Like Rully said, I have used them for some situation but I prefer to mic my cabinet when I can. I used the built in amp simulators in Logic Pro X but never really used the built in effects much. I recently got the Stymon Big Sky and have been playing with the cab emulation output it offers and it doesn't sound half bad. I think it all comes down to what will work in your situation. Try them both and see how well your guitar sits in the mix.
Cody
I've been using Logic's amp modelers for my home recordings. Although I'm aware that there are better amp sims out there, I've decided that basically they're not going to get an overdrive sound right enough for me to worry about it. But I'm lucky ... I don't use a lot of dirt, and when I do, it's fuzz anyway, not amp distortion.
Incidentally, JustNick did a blind test whether people used to hearing it could distinguish between solid state/pedal distortion and amp distortion. The results did not favor the snobs, I'll tell you that.
Okay, here's the pros and cons to models as I see them:
You can change the amp sound AFTER you record the basic track in ways that go beyond simple EQ. I can't express how awesome this is.
It's convenient, quiet, and almost guarantees a clean take free of the vagaries of mic placement, phase issues, and environmental noise. This is a pro AND a con. ;)
Anything beyond the tiniest bit of distortion sounds like crap if you're trying to emulate a real amp, even with good modelers.
Dynamics suffer a lot when you don't have the speaker in the room pushing air and interacting with the guitar. This is my personal biggest complaint about using them. I've tried a few different things like adding an exciter and an expander pre-amp EQ/pre-compression and it improved things a little, but I'm not good enough at mixing to really do a good job on it. I also have to do the same sort of things to an electric keyboard, though -- the dynamics on those are really bad and it took me hours to get one sounding good on a single demo song we recorded over the weekend. I had to manually adjust the levels all over the place, sometimes at note levels, even with the expander.
I can tell you, however, that I played a recording for my regular engineer (Chris Freeland at Beat Babies Studios), and he was able to guess the make and speaker size of a couple different models, and in one case was even able to correctly guess the type of microphone model used on it. (Logic lets you choose what the cab is miced with.) However, he also commented that it sounded dark. This is because microphones tend to have a boost in the 10K range (some slightly lower), so they're getting a lot more air. And this could probably be corrected with the right plugins and EQ work.
I wouldn't use a modeler on a serious recording where I knew ahead of time what kind of sound I was going for. I really love them for working out ideas, though.
I agree pretty much 100% with Jon.
I have Guitar Rig and use it quite a bit.
It's great fun (ie. in a 'I wonder what 10 reverbs and 10 delays in series would sound like' way), and convenient.
But sounding 100% like a decently mic'd amp and cab setup it does not (to my ears anyhow).
Like most digital modelling of analogue equipment, they are getting there, but it's a case of not quite there yet at this moment.
To me, Gforce have come to closest to recreating analog synths via vst. I used Oddity (ARP Odyssey) all the time and it nails it pretty well. That being said, there is still a noticable diffference in some settings. U-he Diva is also another great "analog" vst.
My thoughts differ a little bit with Jon's in that usually amp modelers fail more in clean tube sounds than hi gain sounds in my opinion. I have heard heavy, HEAVY hi gain songs where people used 100% amp modeling and I couldn't tell at all. All that being said, I have been fooled before with A/B comparisons.
The feedback (or lack of) with amp modelers is pretty horrific too.
They ARE convenient though. And like Jon said, it's nice to be able to completely switch out amps, effects, etc. on the fly.
I bought a clearence line 6 toneport di gold for like 70 bucks a few years ago and it included every model they had, it also transfered to their newer program podfarm. Overall they sound pretty good and the number of things you can do with pod farm is pretty extensive as well as running stereo setups. Great for recording but I have never used it live.
The Mermen - No Definite Future & No Purpose Othe...: http://youtu.be/wTrv9uAHFqQ
Just don't think you could get this tone through an amp sim
this thread is super interesting to me as i'm currently in a spot where i might be forced to use some sort of amp sim for all of my recorded guitars. i had considered adding a dummy load to my 18W and using something like a red box for silent recording, but i'm not sure it would be enough of an improvement over the tone of the sims to be worth the effort (because of my elementary recording/mixing skills). my family is moving out of country so we're a bit limited on what we can bring. my wife is fine with my modest pedalboard coming but we just have no room for an amp with a cab. *maybe* a small head, but that's it.
another issue in my case is the place we're going (nepal) is without power for huge chunks of the day. so a sim has the added advantage of being able to be used as long as my laptop has a battery charge. pretty sweet but unfortunately doesn't have the fantastic tone of the 6V6s in my amp.
i've been using the sims in logic pro x as well to try and get a feel for what i could be dealing with. i've pretty much come to the same conclusions listed above. good, not great, and good amp is definitely preferable. now i've heard of some other sims mentioned as being quite a bit better - scuffham s-gear, most of the time - but i haven't had the chance to try it out yet.
ha The Mermen are awesome! @WillyBomb, that song reminds me of Superchunk- Precision Auto. I've used Amplitube and Guitar Rig and they're the leaders in the market, the Peavey product was pretty cool. They're pretty good, and honestly hard to tell apart in all the shootout/contests I've come across. But they don't quite feel real, dynamic enough or get the feeling of a speaker moving air. I would use an amp sim if A) an amp I had wasn't cutting it B) I wanted to record/practice quietly. I'd really like to know if any of my favorite guitar tones were through an amp sim...Tchad Blake uses Sansamp all the time. Again, they're super convenient and fun to see what different stuff sounds like.
I use Amplitube all the time,the Soldano lead is awesome.
On a winpc Overloud th2 is also very good.
Inviato dal mio Nexus 7 utilizzando Tapatalk
I don't have the space/means to mic an amp properly.
I've tried all the amp sims, and a few years ago settled on Guitar Rig.
However, have just swapped over to Scuffham Amps S-Gear which I think is brilliant, the only sim I've played where I've just played and played, not stopping to tweak patches coz they didn't sound just right, and it's cheap to.
Also, Bias is fantastic on the ipad.
I like to mix the two together.
Nothing beats getting a good sound with mics. But I use Guitar Rig sometimes when doing scratch tracks and it sounds really good. A decent mic pre also help when DIing, as opposed to plugging directly into a Mbox,etc..
Based on my experience (about 10 years recording, though not consistently)...
Miking a good amp in a good room with good mics/pres/interface with a decent guitar player using a good instrument cannot be beaten for most forms of music that require touch, sensitivity, and are going to be used as standalone instrument tracks.
Using an amp program (especially the ones available today) will yield you great sounds if any one of the following is true:
- You do not have a good room
- You do not have a good amp
- You are not a decent player using a good instrument (sorry, bad players require more tweaking in DAWs)
- You are going to be doubling, tripling, quadrupling the track and it will be buryed in a very full mix
Basically, I prefer to mic my amp because the typical music I play features one, maybe two guitar tracks, rarely doubled, and I have good enough equipment and enough experience/knowhow to get a good sound. However, if you don't have to do it, it doesn't make sense in every case, especially if you're doing home demos or things like that.
I sound like a snob maybe.
Jacob
You bring up some good points, Jacob. I personally prefer to set up 2 mics get the phase pretty close and hit record. And then pick between the 2 or blend them together. But it is all subjective and there is no "better method" in my opinion.
I've been using Amplitube for a while now and mostly because it's convenient for learning tunes or recording ideas without having to set up equipment. I like the way it takes effects and while it's never gonna fool anyone that it's a real tube amp it does sound great in a mix. I have a bassman and a THD setting that I call up that handles 99% of my tune-learning sounds. I can't say I've found a way to use it live. I take the same approach using a Variax guitar live, though. On it's own nobody is going to believe it's a well miked banjo, but even pushed up front in a mix it gives the "illusion" that's at least credible.
I've also used modelers to reamp tracks and a mixture of real amp and modeler can get some pretty interesting results too.
Like a good effects pedal, it's just another tool in your trick bag.
I've had good experience with a rocktron chameleon in the late 90s. In fact I sold a 100 watt tube head at the time to buy it because I didn't have space to record with any kind of volume. A good sound guy I knew made it sound amazing during gigs I did back then, a few direct to the board. I still have it but haven't plugged it in for a number of years. I'm guessing it sounds a bit dated now preset-wise but could be tweaked.
The axe fx seems promising, but I haven't tried it.
Bias for the ipad isn't bad at all though I haven't done much with it. I've hated the other apps available to date, way too homogenized.
Really imho it comes down to context and getting a sound in a given room that is inspiring, dynamic, and sincere.
Modeling software is programmed to respond in a few ways that may not always be appropriate, while an amp, cabinet, and the room can be "programmed" on the spot.
Hope this doesn't turn into a "tone is in the fingers" thread. ;)
I think its a big difference in record stuff vs play/gig stuff. And an even bigger difference is the amount of spent money on things. A decent Marshall is 2000 USD or there about, simulanalogs guitarsuite is... 0 USD, and you dont even need a recording room or microphone.
I think the whole DAW world is fantastic, it actually gave the musical creativity back to me when i found it in the early 2000s. For no money at all i could suddenly create stuff which just 10 years earlier would have costed me more than i could have dreamed of, and it gave results that sounded decent or sometimes good. In rare cases damm good. I built a "no-budget" studio with a POD 2.0 (which is an amp sim in a box, right) and a microphone for vocals. Drum programming, mouse-clicked keyboard landscapes, always 6 guitar overdubs... luvd it all.
But, the feeling in the moment i play the guitar in a real amp cant be beaten by a simulator or a POD. And its the same with those modeling amps (Line6 stuff, Peavey vypyr etc), they just cant capture the feeling. They dont interact with the guitar. I can browse all those settings and 1000s of presets, without finding "that one sound".
I guess what i am trying to say is; for home recording, DAW and ampsims are wonderful cheap tools/toys, for live or rehearsal (anything "with the band"), it is crap.
***
Detail: I prefer POD farm, ampLion and maybe Revalver. And the free stuff; simulanalog.
Cheers
I was messing around last night with amp sims, and by the best 'cleanish' (ie. on the verge of breakup) tone I got was Soundtoys Radiator running into the cab emulations in guitar rig.
It sounded better to my ears than the emulations built into Guitar Rig (and it isn't even an amp simulation).
There is so much experimentation that can be done in a DAW. I think that is half the fun of it.
Quote from: raulduke on May 16, 2014, 08:53:26 AM
There is so much experimentation that can be done in a DAW. I think that is half the fun of it.
absolutely
I have been a heavy DAW-er for the past 15 years or so. That being said, having the ability to do anything (edits, retakes, multiple tracking, every effect possible, etc. etc.) sometimes makes me end up with nothing because of "option overload" syndrome. I can't tell you how many times I have tweaked stuff to death.
I agree. You can tweak forever and forget about the music!
I've used Pod Farm, Amplitube and Fender Fuse software and they do have their uses depending on what you are recording. A mixture of mic'd amp and software works quite well.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
I use amplitube when writing and recording at home about half the time. The rest of the time I use my Vox with a good old SM57. Amplitube is great for trying out different tones and amp combinations on the guitar part after you've recorded the track.
Quote from: raulduke on May 16, 2014, 08:53:26 AM
There is so much experimentation that can be done in a DAW. I think that is half the fun of it.
The danger for me is that I play with it so long, and try new things, that I never actually 'finish' things. For my next big project my plan is to practice the 'finish it within a deadline' policy. If you experiment, you have to keep it to a reasonable amount of time spent, or it's hard to actually get things done! At least that's how it is in my case.
Jacob
Quote from: AntKnee on May 16, 2014, 06:03:29 PM
I use amplitube when writing and recording at home about half the time. The rest of the time I use my Vox with a good old SM57. Amplitube is great for trying out different tones and amp combinations on the guitar part after you've recorded the track.
This is what I do a lot when I'm working on song ideas in GB. Just using the native sims. It's such a handy way to get the ideas down and still be able to tweak them in.
One problem I run into is that I get these amazing tones while I'm tracking but they lose all life upon playback. I don't know if it's some weird latency thing that creates a doubling effect or what. I've really noticed it with Logic exp. It's so disappointing to have all of that tone just vanish. Is it just me or has this happened to anyone else?
Jamup and bias for iOS are some of the best sounding sims I've ever heard.
I like amplitube... to my ear some of the amp sims are spot on - at least the small number I played in real life. Some are a bit off ...but not by much.
I really wish I was a kid now... you can get a reasonable guitar for couple of hundred, throw couple more in and you have the power of a digital studio to record and mix on your laptop ...if you wonder how some song is played - just youtube it and there are at least 5 different people teaching you (for free) or you got the software that isolates the solo for you and shows you the cord changes...
20 years ago 200q were getting you a shovel with wire for strings...and if you want to learn a solo - better steal some nail polish from your mom coz those cassette tapes are breaking from too much rewinding. Or buy the damn book and learn to read notation.
Quote from: ian_guga on May 19, 2014, 01:53:50 AM
I like amplitube... to my ear some of the amp sims are spot on - at least the small number I played in real life. Some are a bit off ...but not by much.
I really wish I was a kid now... you can get a reasonable guitar for couple of hundred, throw couple more in and you have the power of a digital studio to record and mix on your laptop ...if you wonder how some song is played - just youtube it and there are at least 5 different people teaching you (for free) or you got the software that isolates the solo for you and shows you the cord changes...
20 years ago 200q were getting you a shovel with wire for strings...and if you want to learn a solo - better steal some nail polish from your mom coz those cassette tapes are breaking from too much rewinding. Or buy the damn book and learn to read notation.
So true!
@ian_guga yeah its cool being younger with all this information at your fingertips, but everyone seems more isolated to me. It's harder to find someone to play with, but easier to record an album in your bedroom
Quote from: jtn191 on May 19, 2014, 04:22:34 AM
@ian_guga yeah its cool being younger with all this information at your fingertips, but everyone seems more isolated to me. It's harder to find someone to play with, but easier to record an album in your bedroom
True, but that can be really satisfying as well. Also, there are ways to co-write and record music with people across the globe now that you couldn't before.
Upsides and Downsides to the situation.
Jacob
you always end up hating your band members anyway ;)