Good thing or bad thing? Just wanted to see some builders thoughts on this.
Cody
It's good for JHS. ;D
I think the reviews on the net say it all.
Don't get me wrong, I know all the madness about JHS and love following the drama. It has taught me to NEVER take credit for any thing I did not build for scratch and always appreciate your beginnings.
I was just surprised that Sweetwater was going to start carrying their stuff,
Cody
I suppose it's one thing to come out and say that this pedal is inspired or based on xyz pedal (EHX Soul Food) for example. It's another thing entirely to (allegedly) duplicate an existing circuit (even down to the layout and concept) and claim it as your own original idea.
It hits home especially for us DIYers when the real creator(s) of a copped circuit gives so much to the community so graciously.
I suppose the business terms were favorable for both parties involved.
JHS and Analog Man are mostly hype. They do what we do and got some famous people to really like them.
Quote from: jtn191 on May 21, 2014, 04:43:26 AM
JHS and Analog Man are mostly hype. They do what we do and got some famous people to really like them.
I don't think they do exactly the same we do. I've seen more creativity & tweaking here during a month than both of them had achieved over the years.
Also, if I do sell a clone to someone (a friend or a friend of a friend mostly) I do not take the credit for the design and surround it with hype.
Quote from: jtn191 on May 21, 2014, 04:43:26 AM
JHS and Analog Man are mostly hype.
These two companies aren't remotely comparable in their methods, execution, reputation, or craft. AnalogMike spent years tracing vintage circuits on his own before there was an internet to do the work for him -- and he in fact contributed to discussion in the DIY community in the early years of the internet and reverse engineered some rare vintage pieces before the DIY community jumped on them and traces his version. Mike also spent decades running a gear shop with excellent customer service. And yeah, he made a big stink about people tracing and copying the King of Tone (and revealing it to be a tweaked bluesbreaker), but jeez, his ad copy has never claimed that it was an original circuit ... in fact, it implied that it was based on a tube screamer, which would have made it even MORE common. And AnalogMan's prices are mostly pretty darned fair for boutique gear with a waiting list a mile long, a reputation to kill for, and outstanding resale value. The modified clones Analogman sells are all extinct circuits -- for years he was the only way to get a San Ash Fuzz Boxx (Astrotone), Ross Compressor (Mike also developed the attack control that has been added to many versions of this), CE-2, and even Orange Squeezer (I think he was the first one to start cloning them). Worth noting: AnalogMan will modify your tube screamer but
he doesn't manufacture one. He must be the only long-time running boutique that doesn't bother manufacturing tube screamers. (And though I'm sure you could argue that it's a lot more profitable to modify them, that's not really the point.) The insides of an AnalogMan pedal have ALWAYS looked excellent -- it didn't take pictures on the internet of shabby work or excuses about "getting too many orders" to make that happen.
AnalogMan, along with a couple other companies, were basically the only game in town for boutique builders for a long time going back into the 1980s. They "got some famous people to like them" because they were the only alternative to off-the-shelf pedals -- which were not in a great place at the time, either, because they didn't have much substantial competition (though Boss was still making excellent stuff, of course) -- and the only ways to get certain pieces of highly coveted vintage circuits, like germanium fuzz faces and some other period-correct extinct pedals. He also knew how to fix the real units those people were using when they broke. Saying that AnalogMan does "what we do" is ignoring how horrendously difficult this hobby would have been before everything was a forum search away. I know I haven't been in this as long as many people on this forum (just over two years now), but I can remember what it was like to do research on even well-known topics before the internet. I can't imagine how difficult it was for a hobby with such esoteric appeal, few print publications, and maybe five people in a hundred mile radius who have the least interest in thinking about it.
Well stated Jon.
There's nothing wrong, at all, with selling clones. Just be honest about it.
That's the biggest differentiator between Analogman and JHS (on the product side). Analogman proudly proclaims to sell clones. It's his whole marketing message: vintage clones built very well. And he does a damn good job on the products and the service after the sale.
JHS has done very well in over the last couple years. He must be doing something right on the service side of things. That's where the "upstart" hot new companies usually crash and burn. If the service was bad, the company would be putting out videos explaining why they hadn't shipped any pedals. ;)
I didn't mean to bother anyone with the statement, it was made with both company's marketing material in mind. Anyone who follows them on Facebook knows what I'm talking about. If you read AnalogMan's info on fuzz faces he stresses brand of transistor over actual specs. I just mean that both are enormously successful and somewhat deceptive--they don't share the truth in the way that RG Keen does.
Calling your pedal--a dual Bluesbreaker--"The King of Tone" is a little sensational IMO.
Plus their mods are almost never elaborated on. It's assumed that they're making your pedal sound better but aren't told why or how.
I could have said: What do we (as hobbyists, cloners, experimenters, tweakers, craftsmen) have a use for a company who sells what we make and give little extra info?
Quote from: midwayfair on May 21, 2014, 01:10:05 PM
Quote from: jtn191 on May 21, 2014, 04:43:26 AM
JHS and Analog Man are mostly hype.
These two companies aren't remotely comparable in their methods, execution, reputation, or craft. AnalogMike spent years tracing vintage circuits on his own before there was an internet to do the work for him -- and he in fact contributed to discussion in the DIY community in the early years of the internet and reverse engineered some rare vintage pieces before the DIY community jumped on them and traces his version. Mike also spent decades running a gear shop with excellent customer service. And yeah, he made a big stink about people tracing and copying the King of Tone (and revealing it to be a tweaked bluesbreaker), but jeez, his ad copy has never claimed that it was an original circuit ... in fact, it implied that it was based on a tube screamer, which would have made it even MORE common. And AnalogMan's prices are mostly pretty darned fair for boutique gear with a waiting list a mile long, a reputation to kill for, and outstanding resale value. The modified clones Analogman sells are all extinct circuits -- for years he was the only way to get a San Ash Fuzz Boxx (Astrotone), Ross Compressor (Mike also developed the attack control that has been added to many versions of this), CE-2, and even Orange Squeezer (I think he was the first one to start cloning them). Worth noting: AnalogMan will modify your tube screamer but he doesn't manufacture one. He must be the only long-time running boutique that doesn't bother manufacturing tube screamers. (And though I'm sure you could argue that it's a lot more profitable to modify them, that's not really the point.) The insides of an AnalogMan pedal have ALWAYS looked excellent -- it didn't take pictures on the internet of shabby work or excuses about "getting too many orders" to make that happen.
AnalogMan, along with a couple other companies, were basically the only game in town for boutique builders for a long time going back into the 1980s. They "got some famous people to like them" because they were the only alternative to off-the-shelf pedals -- which were not in a great place at the time, either, because they didn't have much substantial competition (though Boss was still making excellent stuff, of course) -- and the only ways to get certain pieces of highly coveted vintage circuits, like germanium fuzz faces and some other period-correct extinct pedals. He also knew how to fix the real units those people were using when they broke. Saying that AnalogMan does "what we do" is ignoring how horrendously difficult this hobby would have been before everything was a forum search away. I know I haven't been in this as long as many people on this forum (just over two years now), but I can remember what it was like to do research on even well-known topics before the internet. I can't imagine how difficult it was for a hobby with such esoteric appeal, few print publications, and maybe five people in a hundred mile radius who have the least interest in thinking about it.
Good stuff. I appreciate the perspective!
Quote from: midwayfair on May 21, 2014, 01:10:05 PM
Quote from: jtn191 on May 21, 2014, 04:43:26 AM
JHS and Analog Man are mostly hype.
These two companies aren't remotely comparable in their methods, execution, reputation, or craft. AnalogMike spent years tracing vintage circuits on his own before there was an internet to do the work for him -- and he in fact contributed to discussion in the DIY community in the early years of the internet and reverse engineered some rare vintage pieces before the DIY community jumped on them and traces his version. Mike also spent decades running a gear shop with excellent customer service. And yeah, he made a big stink about people tracing and copying the King of Tone (and revealing it to be a tweaked bluesbreaker), but jeez, his ad copy has never claimed that it was an original circuit ... in fact, it implied that it was based on a tube screamer, which would have made it even MORE common. And AnalogMan's prices are mostly pretty darned fair for boutique gear with a waiting list a mile long, a reputation to kill for, and outstanding resale value. The modified clones Analogman sells are all extinct circuits -- for years he was the only way to get a San Ash Fuzz Boxx (Astrotone), Ross Compressor (Mike also developed the attack control that has been added to many versions of this), CE-2, and even Orange Squeezer (I think he was the first one to start cloning them). Worth noting: AnalogMan will modify your tube screamer but he doesn't manufacture one. He must be the only long-time running boutique that doesn't bother manufacturing tube screamers. (And though I'm sure you could argue that it's a lot more profitable to modify them, that's not really the point.) The insides of an AnalogMan pedal have ALWAYS looked excellent -- it didn't take pictures on the internet of shabby work or excuses about "getting too many orders" to make that happen.
AnalogMan, along with a couple other companies, were basically the only game in town for boutique builders for a long time going back into the 1980s. They "got some famous people to like them" because they were the only alternative to off-the-shelf pedals -- which were not in a great place at the time, either, because they didn't have much substantial competition (though Boss was still making excellent stuff, of course) -- and the only ways to get certain pieces of highly coveted vintage circuits, like germanium fuzz faces and some other period-correct extinct pedals. He also knew how to fix the real units those people were using when they broke. Saying that AnalogMan does "what we do" is ignoring how horrendously difficult this hobby would have been before everything was a forum search away. I know I haven't been in this as long as many people on this forum (just over two years now), but I can remember what it was like to do research on even well-known topics before the internet. I can't imagine how difficult it was for a hobby with such esoteric appeal, few print publications, and maybe five people in a hundred mile radius who have the least interest in thinking about it.
I concur
Analog man is reputable
Jhs are charlatans
Quote from: midwayfair on May 21, 2014, 01:10:05 PM
Quote from: jtn191 on May 21, 2014, 04:43:26 AM
JHS and Analog Man are mostly hype.
These two companies aren't remotely comparable in their methods, execution, reputation, or craft. AnalogMike spent years tracing vintage circuits on his own before there was an internet to do the work for him -- and he in fact contributed to discussion in the DIY community in the early years of the internet and reverse engineered some rare vintage pieces before the DIY community jumped on them and traces his version. Mike also spent decades running a gear shop with excellent customer service. And yeah, he made a big stink about people tracing and copying the King of Tone (and revealing it to be a tweaked bluesbreaker), but jeez, his ad copy has never claimed that it was an original circuit ... in fact, it implied that it was based on a tube screamer, which would have made it even MORE common. And AnalogMan's prices are mostly pretty darned fair for boutique gear with a waiting list a mile long, a reputation to kill for, and outstanding resale value. The modified clones Analogman sells are all extinct circuits -- for years he was the only way to get a San Ash Fuzz Boxx (Astrotone), Ross Compressor (Mike also developed the attack control that has been added to many versions of this), CE-2, and even Orange Squeezer (I think he was the first one to start cloning them). Worth noting: AnalogMan will modify your tube screamer but he doesn't manufacture one. He must be the only long-time running boutique that doesn't bother manufacturing tube screamers. (And though I'm sure you could argue that it's a lot more profitable to modify them, that's not really the point.) The insides of an AnalogMan pedal have ALWAYS looked excellent -- it didn't take pictures on the internet of shabby work or excuses about "getting too many orders" to make that happen.
AnalogMan, along with a couple other companies, were basically the only game in town for boutique builders for a long time going back into the 1980s. They "got some famous people to like them" because they were the only alternative to off-the-shelf pedals -- which were not in a great place at the time, either, because they didn't have much substantial competition (though Boss was still making excellent stuff, of course) -- and the only ways to get certain pieces of highly coveted vintage circuits, like germanium fuzz faces and some other period-correct extinct pedals. He also knew how to fix the real units those people were using when they broke. Saying that AnalogMan does "what we do" is ignoring how horrendously difficult this hobby would have been before everything was a forum search away. I know I haven't been in this as long as many people on this forum (just over two years now), but I can remember what it was like to do research on even well-known topics before the internet. I can't imagine how difficult it was for a hobby with such esoteric appeal, few print publications, and maybe five people in a hundred mile radius who have the least interest in thinking about it.
Thanks Jon.
It is really cool to have people like you on this forum that tell things as they are. One of the big problems of the internet era is to get access to reliable info and is easy to be carried along by some arguments without really getting to think about the whole picture.
Here is another question. Do you think the lost relationship and bad taste he has gave in the mouths of the DIY community that helped him start out effects his sales? I know he was really popular in the P&W crowd as a lot of boutique vendors are but that has seemed to die down. On my blog, the number one search term is "JHS Morning Glory" and I still get asked about the clone I did. I then replay "Its just a modded Marshall Bulesbreaker and nothing more". Which reminds me, I need to update a post on it since I got a better etch-able layout from a DIYSB member and it sounds great.
I am finding it harder and harder not to think like a builder and sometime have to rely on my father to answer the question, "would you buy it?" Knowing that, does our (DIY community) opinions weigh in on normal day to day players?
Just things I am thinking about at work today.
Cody
Quote from: selfdestroyer on May 21, 2014, 06:56:42 PM
Do you think the lost relationship and bad taste he has gave in the mouths of the DIY community that helped him start out effects his sales?
No. Forums are a small percentage of his buying crowd, and people will buy pedals that they think are worth something. I do think that the forums forced him to clean up his act on some things -- note that his website tells you most of the time what's a clone and what isn't, the gut shots look like professional pedals, he only uses his own layouts, etc. etc. As the company has gotten bigger, they have to their credit become more responsible and haven't buckled under the pressure. So maybe instead of dredging up the past it's best to just react to things as they happen and see if they continue to improve things whenever there's an inevitable hate storm (even when undeserved).
JHS irks me, but a lot of it's (an understandable) knee jerk reaction to what USED to happen ... look at the Superbolt stuff. Everyone -- including me -- took one look at the gutshot and assumed it was a Supreaux Deux clone with some different biasing and the "bottom" cap in. It turns out that he actually hybridized the SD and the Supreaux designs, which is why no one could get their SD to sound EXACTLY like the Superbolt.
If the company were to emerge exactly as their are right now, with no prior history, my only complaints would be that I think they're a little overpriced and their lack of original circuit percentage among such a large number of choices. They're a bit crass with jumping on modding a brand new pedal right out of the gate (the Soul Food), and there are some questionable choices about how they go about their mods that I don't personally think are well thought out. But they clearly have a reputation for providing good customer service, and their current construction at least also has a reputation for reliability (though I think they're stingy on the warranty compared to others in their price range, too). They have NEVER that I can find had a thread with people wondering where their pedals were months after ordering.
Would any of their things be the first or even fifth pedal of their type that I recommend? Probably not, except that I'd probably mention the morning glory for someone who wants a bluesbreaker with less treble. Am I annoyed that they didn't give ROG credit for the Supreaux Deux on which it's clearly based? Absolutely 100% and I will mention the SD (with clarification about the changes) whenever the topic comes up and offer an alternative to get the Supreaux Deux instead (e.g. Codtone or VFE).
If I'm being really clear-headed about it, I'd probably just ignore them if they were brand new. It's not like they ever would have gotten my business in the past, so really aren't there other things we can expend our energy on than disliking someone who doesn't care what we think? They aren't going anywhere.
I just get a weird vibe of JHS in general. I'm not 100% sure what it is, but something just seems a bit off kilter about the way they operate.
I admire JHS's idea of the Colour box, but am skeptical of how it's actually made. It runs on 18 volts (DC presumably) but Neve Pre's require 24v AC. And who runs their guitar into a Neve channel strip into an amp? They go on to list bands who used Neve preamps as if they're endorsing the JHS Neve-like pedal.
Quote from: jtn191 on May 21, 2014, 07:53:38 PM
I admire JHS's idea of the Colour box, but am skeptical of how it's actually made. It runs on 18 volts (DC presumably) but Neve Pre's require 24v AC. And who runs their guitar into a Neve channel strip into an amp? They go on to list bands who used Neve preamps as if they're endorsing the JHS Neve-like pedal.
Not only this, but they're implying that all of those songs they list were recorded on Neve consoles. A lot of them weren't. The Beatles, for instance, were working with Abbey Road's REDD tube consoles. Dylan's Highway 61 Revisted was done at Columbia's 30th Street studio, which had its own custom consoles (designed and built in-house) in every room.
Personally, I find the idea of using a pedal that you're plugging into an amp to emulate the sound of a DI'd guitar a bit ridiculous. The whole point of that sound is that you're not using an amp. Yes, I see that this thing has an XLR output, but if you're going to use it to plug straight into the console, why not just do that in the first place?
I'm exceptionally biased, so all I am willing to say is that I hope that Josh is no longer running customer service or answering emails.
And to compare JHS with Analogman....
I'm entitled to my opinion and my opinion based on demos I've heard: I'm not really interested in buying JHS or AM products. Catalinbread is more interesting to me
So I am a little late to the game here.....
Did JHS used to be a member here?
Quote from: peAk on May 22, 2014, 04:13:47 PM
Did JHS used to be a member here?
No, but he was a member at FSB. People got angry at him because he wouldn't tell people that he was selling clones, circuits based on other people's IP, misleading marketing info, he had messy wiring. Thing is so many companies (of varying reputability) have been selling clones..."This is the next great OD pedal for $200!! (pst...it's a tube screamer)...that this is no new story, but one that repeats itself.
Quote from: jtn191 on May 22, 2014, 04:52:53 PM
Quote from: peAk on May 22, 2014, 04:13:47 PM
Did JHS used to be a member here?
No, but he was a member at FSB. People got angry at him because he wouldn't tell people that he was selling clones, circuits based on other people's IP, misleading marketing info, he had messy wiring. Thing is so many companies (of various reputability) have been selling clones..."This is the next great OD pedal for $200!! (pst...it's a tube screamer)...that this is no new story, but one that repeats itself.
But it was not just clones but actual PCB etches/layouts from other members at FSB and DIYSB.
Its one thing to take a schematic and make your own layout and call it your own but to take a PCB layout and call it your own is just wrong. In my mind that is.
Cody
Quote from: selfdestroyer on May 22, 2014, 05:05:03 PM
Quote from: jtn191 on May 22, 2014, 04:52:53 PM
Quote from: peAk on May 22, 2014, 04:13:47 PM
Did JHS used to be a member here?
No, but he was a member at FSB. People got angry at him because he wouldn't tell people that he was selling clones, circuits based on other people's IP, misleading marketing info, he had messy wiring. Thing is so many companies (of various reputability) have been selling clones..."This is the next great OD pedal for $200!! (pst...it's a tube screamer)...that this is no new story, but one that repeats itself.
But it was not just clones but actual PCB etches/layouts from other members at FSB and DIYSB.
Its one thing to take a schematic and make your own layout and call it your own but to take a PCB layout and call it your own is just wrong. In my mind that is.
Cody
This was my problem with him. There are pictures of his early Sweet Teas that were etched boards for the Tonepad El Griton for the TS side and Brian's Krunkee (MI Audio CrunchBox) for the other side.
He's obviously way past that now, but that whole thing never sat right with me. But more power to him for being successful at what he's doing.
Quote from: selfdestroyer on May 22, 2014, 05:05:03 PM
But it was not just clones but actual PCB etches/layouts from other members at FSB and DIYSB.
That's what I meant by "other people's IP". Other people's Intellectual Property.
Quote from: jtn191 on May 22, 2014, 06:48:56 PM
Quote from: selfdestroyer on May 22, 2014, 05:05:03 PM
But it was not just clones but actual PCB etches/layouts from other members at FSB and DIYSB.
That's what I meant by "other people's IP". Other people's Intellectual Property.
The acronym did not register with me at the time sorry. We seem to be on the same page.
Cody
Quote from: jtn191 on May 22, 2014, 03:49:08 PM
I'm entitled to my opinion and my opinion based on demos I've heard: I'm not really interested in buying JHS or AM products. Catalinbread is more interesting to me
If I have made you feel in anyway un-entitled to your opinion I'm sorry. I was solely stating mine in agreeance with Jon(Midwayfair) I'm glad to hear that your opinion is based solely on demos you've heard, as I can now understand your point of view. Having had to deal with both on a professional level, I prefer to never deal with JHS again, and that AnalogMike and his entire crew are an absolute treat to deal with.
And I COMPLETELY agree Catalinbread is an amazing company. Plus any company that introduces a F*ck it, You build it line.. Awesome.
Edit: Catalinbread stuff.
Quote from: culturejam on May 21, 2014, 07:46:45 PM
I just get a weird vibe of JHS in general. I'm not 100% sure what it is, but something just seems a bit off kilter about the way they operate.
I cannot say it better. strong +1.
Quote from: atreidesheir on May 23, 2014, 12:00:26 AM
Quote from: culturejam on May 21, 2014, 07:46:45 PM
I just get a weird vibe of JHS in general. I'm not 100% sure what it is, but something just seems a bit off kilter about the way they operate.
I cannot say it better. strong +1.
I think there is some "cray-cray" bleeding through. I've heard interwebz rumors that Mr. JHS is a member of an allegedly "fringe" faction of Christianity that allegedly has some "unconventional" views.
Quote from: culturejam on May 23, 2014, 12:12:56 AM
Quote from: atreidesheir on May 23, 2014, 12:00:26 AM
Quote from: culturejam on May 21, 2014, 07:46:45 PM
I just get a weird vibe of JHS in general. I'm not 100% sure what it is, but something just seems a bit off kilter about the way they operate.
I cannot say it better. strong +1.
I think there is some "cray-cray" bleeding through. I've heard interwebz rumors that Mr. JHS is a member of an allegedly "fringe" faction of Christianity that allegedly has some "unconventional" views.
Political and religious affiliations aside... the off kilter observation is still correct.
Josh is associated with IHOP - international house of prayer - which is a charismatic church that is a little goofy. This is an evaluation by a conservative Christian organization: http://carm.org/ihop.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: playpunk on May 23, 2014, 11:13:54 AM
Josh is associated with IHOP - international house of prayer - which is a charismatic church that is a little goofy. This is an evaluation by a conservative Christian organization: http://carm.org/ihop.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I love IHOP's pancakes! :)
Quote from: rullywowr on May 23, 2014, 11:15:43 AM
Quote from: playpunk on May 23, 2014, 11:13:54 AM
Josh is associated with IHOP - international house of prayer - which is a charismatic church that is a little goofy. This is an evaluation by a conservative Christian organization: http://carm.org/ihop.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I love IHOP's pancakes! :)
Well played sir, well played ;D
Quote from: peAk on May 22, 2014, 04:13:47 PM
So I am a little late to the game here.....
Did JHS used to be a member here?
Josh was actually one of my earliest customers back before JHS was a major player. This was back when I did orders via email. I didn't really get to know him, though. His emails were...laconic, let's say.
Quote
This was my problem with him. There are pictures of his early Sweet Teas that were etched boards for the Tonepad El Griton for the TS side and Brian's Krunkee (MI Audio CrunchBox) for the other side.
Yeah, that was kind of lame. But, he eventually switched to his own layouts for his products so it is all cool. Back then I was a lot more concerned about that kind of thing. Overall, I think he's come a long way from where he started although he's had a few missteps on the way.
I think that's a very normal element of business. From his perspective, I bet he didn't see much wrong with using other layouts, thought of it more as an expanded DIY thing. Then, when he learned that was poor form, he made the switch. Part of it, I bet, was because it's actually much more effective to develop your own layout when you're doing production style stuff as opposed to DIY.
Anyway, I don't know Josh from a hole in a wall, and I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt more often than not.
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on May 23, 2014, 04:31:05 PM
Part of it, I bet, was because it's actually much more effective to develop your own layout when you're doing production style stuff as opposed to DIY.
Totally. Using somebody else's layout for larger runs is often one of those penny-wise/pound-foolish decisions. You save a little upfront on development, but you lose your ass on the backend to inflated labor.
The more I think about this situation I really wonder if the problem was just like other small/ish boutique pedal companies. You start out making some nice looking/great sounding clones and mods and people in the forums want to buy one. Then they tell friends and do nice reviews on your stuff and demands start being generated. The decisions to use others layouts might have been out of desperation or a "just until my own layouts are complete" kind of thing. I really think the thought of "making it big" can cloud a lot of good judgment and add a hint of greed in there can be disasterest. I really think it all comes down to how you handle the situation. I can only imagine how hard it would be to go from DYI hobbyist to a small pedal company and all the decisions that need to be made to make that happen.
Cody
I honestly don't know HOW people can make it as a new Booteek pedal company now. There are SO many names out there that the market seems completely flooded.
I guess the creme rises to the top though... :-\
Quote from: culturejam on May 23, 2014, 04:53:52 PM
Quote from: jkokura on May 23, 2014, 04:31:05 PM
Part of it, I bet, was because it's actually much more effective to develop your own layout when you're doing production style stuff as opposed to DIY.
Totally. Using somebody else's layout for larger runs is often one of those penny-wise/pound-foolish decisions. You save a little upfront on development, but you lose your ass on the backend to inflated labor.
Exactly this. A good example is Catalinbread. While Catalinbread (and designer Howard Lee) have been doing their own (great, I might add) layouts from the jump, they have moved to PCB mounted everything in the last couple years because of labor costs and efficiency. When you are making 1,000s of something as opposed to 10s... your mindset must change in order to keep up with demand while delivering a solid product. They claim reliability is better than ever and of course assembly and build times have decreased. It's impossible to make those types of changes if you are just using someone else's layout.
JHS has also (allegedly) used "tactics" such as intentionally mounting component under the board and underneath other components to obfuscate the origins of circuits... if this turns out to be true, it certainly leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on May 23, 2014, 05:25:23 PM
I honestly don't know HOW people can make it as a new Booteek pedal company now. There are SO many names out there that the market seems completely flooded.
I guess the creme rises to the top though... :-\
Simple.
1) Get a card table to build on
2) Use unobtainum components which add "mojo" and be quite vocal about it
3) Create high demand by offering low supply and high prices
4) Profit!
8)
Quote from: rullywowr on May 23, 2014, 05:31:26 PM
While Catalinbread (and designer Howard Lee) have been doing their own (great, I might add) layouts from the jump, they have moved to PCB mounted everything in the last couple years because of labor costs and efficiency.
The last couple C'bread pedals I looked at had the pots wired off-board, but everything else was on board.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on May 23, 2014, 05:25:23 PM
I honestly don't know HOW people can make it as a new Booteek pedal company now. There are SO many names out there that the market seems completely flooded.
I guess the creme rises to the top though... :-\
I honestly don't know how some of the ones that are out there have survived. I just had a discussion with a potential dealer last weekend and showed him a couple of FFX prototypes.
He commented about how nice they looked compared so some of the other "boutique" builder pedals he gets. Among his recent shipments included:
1.) Pedals that came in no packaging at all. Just bagged and ready to go.
2.) Pedals that used a cheap vinyl sticker as a label. I don't consider this as bad as some of the other things but it bothered him.
3.) Pedals that came without the bottom plates screwed on. The screws came with in a separate bag so it was easy enough to put them in, but he thought that was a bit lame.
And this doesn't even address some of the poor "mojo" wiring and things like that.
I agree that the market is getting crowded and it is getting hard to differentiate. The better examples of smaller companies (like Catlinbread, Wampler and Earthquaker to name a few) have their act together and seem to be doing very well for themselves.
Quote from: pickdropper on May 23, 2014, 05:45:52 PM
1.) Pedals that came in no packaging at all. Just bagged and ready to go.
What? Seriously? I can understand no UPC, but no box or label? Sheesh.
Quote from: pickdropper on May 23, 2014, 05:45:52 PM
2.) Pedals that used a cheap vinyl sticker as a label. I don't consider this as bad as some of the other things but it bothered him.
Devi (cough cough) Ever? Sticker and bare aluminum.
Quote from: pickdropper on May 23, 2014, 05:45:52 PM
3.) Pedals that came without the bottom plates screwed on. The screws came with in a separate bag so it was easy enough to put them in, but he thought that was a bit lame.
WTF? Seriously? I think it would be harder to keep the bottom cover from getting beat up if it was rattling around. Like it saves you so much time to not screw on the bottom panel (SMH).
I know you guys know how to make a quality product, and I wish you all the best with your pedal company endeavor. If the prospective dealer can notice the great quality right off the rip, I'm sure discerning end-users will as well. 8)
Quote from: pickdropper on May 23, 2014, 05:45:52 PM
2.) Pedals that used a cheap vinyl sticker as a label. I don't consider this as bad as some of the other things but it bothered him.
PD, I dare you to do a bare-metal enclosure build and, before you do your trademark I-wish-my-bought-pedals-looked-that-good graphics, put some Dymo labelling on and show it to him :)
Quote from: rullywowr on May 23, 2014, 05:55:14 PM
Quote from: pickdropper on May 23, 2014, 05:45:52 PM
1.) Pedals that came in no packaging at all. Just bagged and ready to go.
What? Seriously? I can understand no UPC, but no box or label? Sheesh.
Quote from: pickdropper on May 23, 2014, 05:45:52 PM
2.) Pedals that used a cheap vinyl sticker as a label. I don't consider this as bad as some of the other things but it bothered him.
Devi (cough cough) Ever? Sticker and bare aluminum.
Quote from: pickdropper on May 23, 2014, 05:45:52 PM
3.) Pedals that came without the bottom plates screwed on. The screws came with in a separate bag so it was easy enough to put them in, but he thought that was a bit lame.
WTF? Seriously? I think it would be harder to keep the bottom cover from getting beat up if it was rattling around. Like it saves you so much time to not screw on the bottom panel (SMH).
I know you guys know how to make a quality product, and I wish you all the best with your pedal company endeavor. If the prospective dealer can notice the great quality right off the rip, I'm sure discerning end-users will as well. 8)
Yeah, I have no explanation for not screwing in the baseplate. That is unprofessional by any standards. The lack of shipping box (even a plain cardboard one) seems a bit odd.
The sticker thing really depends on execution to me. I got the impression that it was a cheap bumper sticker type thing randomly stuck on the enclosure, but I didn't actually see it. Some companies have done nicer adhesive type labeling and it's been OK. In defense of Devi Ever, at least she kept the prices really low and stickers were applied reasonably well. It wasn't a $350 Tube Screamer with a sticker on it. People will put up with a little bit of "rough around the edges" when they are paying $100 vs. a whole lot more.
Quote from: alanp on May 23, 2014, 07:39:46 PM
Quote from: pickdropper on May 23, 2014, 05:45:52 PM
2.) Pedals that used a cheap vinyl sticker as a label. I don't consider this as bad as some of the other things but it bothered him.
PD, I dare you to do a bare-metal enclosure build and, before you do your trademark I-wish-my-bought-pedals-looked-that-good graphics, put some Dymo labelling on and show it to him :)
If I did that, we'd clearly be able to charge a lot more, especially if one of the labels makes a Dumble Reference. Maybe I could call it the "Overprice Special (TM)."
Quote from: pickdropper on May 23, 2014, 07:55:46 PM
The sticker thing really depends on execution to me. I got the impression that it was a cheap bumper sticker type thing randomly stuck on the enclosure, but I didn't actually see it. Some companies have done nicer adhesive type labeling and it's been OK. In defense of Devi Ever, at least she kept the prices really low and stickers were applied reasonably well. It wasn't a $350 Tube Screamer with a sticker on it. People will put up with a little bit of "rough around the edges" when they are paying $100 vs. a whole lot more.
I agree. I have used professionally printed outdoor vinyl on some of my builds for sale, however I at least have the box powdercoated. It's an easy way to get a nice graphic on there, short of laser etching or silkscreen (the best).
Done tastefully, even bare enclosures with stamped letters (ie: Fairfield) can look sharp.