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Projects => Tech Help - Projects Page => Topic started by: wilsona on July 30, 2014, 01:00:21 AM

Title: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO - FIXED
Post by: wilsona on July 30, 2014, 01:00:21 AM
Just had an epic tussle getting my Pork Barrel working (it was a dodgy connection on the PCB). Now I have a problem with noise.

The LFO has an audible tick that varies with the the rate - does anyone have any idea on how to get rid of it? It is loud enough to make the pedal unusable. Otherwise it is fine, although it does not like being driven and distorts a bit. Plenty of depth.

I have already tried shielding the pots and signal wires from the PCB with copper tape and checking everything is grounded OK.

Help (again)!
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: blearyeyes on July 30, 2014, 05:58:06 PM
Last guy that had this problem tightened up all of the jacks and such and it went away. Seems like it's always a ground issue.

http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=16495.0
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: wilsona on July 30, 2014, 09:37:57 PM
Well everything on mine is plenty tight... I do notice the case is a bit microphonic, tapping it comes through - what could that be?
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: blearyeyes on July 31, 2014, 12:43:23 AM
The trannies are in sockets, the chips are in sockets. I had a crackling in one pedal that I fixed by bending the transistors leads so they had pressure after being inserted into the sockets. Try tapping on all the components (gently) that's how I found the transistor wasn't seating properly. Some people solder them into the sockets after finishing using a heat sink of course. Not sure if chips can be microphonic.

Did you use plastic jacks?
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: wilsona on July 31, 2014, 07:02:24 PM
Skeleton jacks. I'll open it up and try tapping things.
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: RobA on July 31, 2014, 07:20:20 PM
Ticking from an LFO can come from the changes in power draw at the points where the LFO tops and/or bottoms out. The TL062 should help reduce this because it's a low current draw op-amp. Still, it could be something related to the interaction of your pedal and the power supply. Does it do it with different ways of powering the pedal?

The changes in the current draw can be coming through the audio op-amp because of the changes in available current for its pins. It could be that changing that op-amp to a new type might help. Check to see if all the sections in the power supply filtering look OK too. One thing that might help is to put 100nF ceramic caps across the power rails on the op-amps. Tacking them from pin 8 to pin 4 will get them as close to the rail as possible, and that's what you want. You might be able to test if it'll help just by holding the cap in place while the pedal is running.
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: blearyeyes on July 31, 2014, 08:36:05 PM
Mine sounds 100% better with 15v power, didn't have any ticking though. I bought a road rage to use with it. Really worth it for the 3007 build.
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: blearyeyes on July 31, 2014, 08:48:08 PM
Rob, what could be causing the microphonic case the OP spoke about?
Can chips do that?
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: RobA on August 01, 2014, 03:13:05 AM
Quote from: blearyeyes on July 31, 2014, 08:48:08 PM
Rob, what could be causing the microphonic case the OP spoke about?
Can chips do that?
I've got no idea if chips can do that. I wouldn't say no though. I guess that it would be possible in a case where a lead was not completely attached at a junction with the IC.

My first guess though would be that it was with the connections somewhere or maybe a pot that was a bit screwy. Maybe tap the individual parts and wires to see if it could be narrowed down?
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: blearyeyes on August 01, 2014, 03:23:18 AM
Agree, I guess you learn nothing is impossible with this stuff...except maybe a pedal that does your laundry...  I've fixed more stuff by banging on it in frustration than hours of thinking...8-)) lol.
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: wilsona on August 05, 2014, 02:16:00 PM
Thanks for feedback - I have not had time to open it up and tap around yet. The power supply is 9V from an MXR Brick. I'll try a separate 9V wallwart and see if it is any different.
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: wilsona on August 06, 2014, 12:38:54 PM
Same issue with a different PSU. Will give the capacitor suggestion a try. I do not have one that size around - how close does it have to be to 100nF?
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: Scruffie on August 06, 2014, 01:58:51 PM
It's probably your pot wiring, shorten and tidy the wires, don't braid them together, keep them separate.

You could try a cap anywhere from 100nF to 100uF (negative to pin 4, positive to pin 8 ) on the back of the LFO chip.

Be sure you have all your electrolytics orientated correctly too.
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: muddyfox on August 06, 2014, 07:32:22 PM
anything inherently wrong with braiding the pots? i used to do it all the time back when i was heavily into vero for the sole purpose of spaghetti management. worked wonders for that...
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: wilsona on August 07, 2014, 12:14:21 PM
I've screened the pots from the pcb using copper foil, with only the last cm unshielded, and the I/O wires from the pots and PCB, so I assumed that was sufficient. To braid them I would have to affix longer wires  to the pots but I can try it if you think its worth it. Unfortunately I decided to put the jack sockets at the top of the box, so everything is a bit open up there, and the I/O wires run the whole length of the enclosure under the PCB.

Regarding the cap on the MN3101 - I was just going to use a non-polarised ceramic but I might have a suitable size electrolytic around.
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: Scruffie on August 07, 2014, 03:46:55 PM
Quote from: wilsona on August 07, 2014, 12:14:21 PM
I've screened the pots from the pcb using copper foil, with only the last cm unshielded, and the I/O wires from the pots and PCB, so I assumed that was sufficient. To braid them I would have to affix longer wires  to the pots but I can try it if you think its worth it. Unfortunately I decided to put the jack sockets at the top of the box, so everything is a bit open up there, and the I/O wires run the whole length of the enclosure under the PCB.

Regarding the cap on the MN3101 - I was just going to use a non-polarised ceramic but I might have a suitable size electrolytic around.
Never assume, shielding helps but it's better to have short wires in the first place.

No i'm saying DON'T braid them, I wasn't sure if you had or not  :)

Don't put the cap on the MN3101, put it across IC2.
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: blearyeyes on August 07, 2014, 04:38:35 PM
I have a Pork barrel without any extra shielding and it is quite. Most likely you have a cold solder joint somewhere or a solder hair, something shorting out or a bad component. Re-flowing solder joints is your friend. I have never braided pot wires and rarely see it done for anything other than cosmetic reasons. Did you find anything by tapping the components?
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: wilsona on August 09, 2014, 10:37:54 PM
Just want to be clear - I'm putting the cap between 4 and 8 on IC2, which is the op-amp.  Anything from 100nf to 100uf, if electrolytic then negative to pin 4, positive to pin 8. Right?

I will go round a re-flow it too, I did reflow everything around IC3 and 4, but I'll do the whole board.

Have not done a tap test yet.  Been a bit side-tracked, building a new telecaster.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: Scruffie on August 09, 2014, 10:42:28 PM
Quote from: wilsona on August 09, 2014, 10:37:54 PM
Just want to be clear - I'm putting the cap between 4 and 8 on IC2, which is the op-amp.  Anything from 100nf to 100uf, if electrolytic then negative to pin 4, positive to pin 8. Right?

I will go round a re-flow it too, I did reflow everything around IC3 and 4, but I'll do the whole board.

Have not done a tap test yet.  Been a bit side-tracked, building a new telecaster.

Thanks.
Correct, i'd go for the higher end valued electrolytic, 47-100uF personally.
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO
Post by: wilsona on August 11, 2014, 11:27:08 PM
I happened to have 20 (!) spare 47uF 25V electrolytics so used one of them - sorted! The pedal is nice and quiet, no hint of LFO in the background anymore. Now I'll just have to work out how to close the case....

Still got a slight problem with distortion - I'll open another thread for that if it bugs me enough (it probably will).

I can't thank you enough for all the help. I have learned so much from you all.
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO - FIXED
Post by: blearyeyes on August 12, 2014, 12:00:16 AM
Buy a Road Rage and run this @ 15v, more headroom and nicer sounding.
No more distortion...much better.
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO - FIXED
Post by: RobA on August 12, 2014, 04:21:10 AM
Excellent.

I'll give a big second for doing a 15V mod. It really helped mine out. I set mine up to run off an 18V input from my DC-Brick and then I regulated that to 15V using a little breakout board for the regulator circuit. I did sound better that way.

Now that I have an MN3207 in there, I had to run it back at 9V and there is some definite noise with it at that level.

If you've got the MN3007 in there, I think it's definitely worth powering it at 15V. Just make sure it's a solidly regulated 15V since you are pushing the limits of the BBD at that level.
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO - FIXED
Post by: Scruffie on August 12, 2014, 04:36:43 AM
Quote from: RobA on August 12, 2014, 04:21:10 AM
If you've got the MN3007 in there, I think it's definitely worth powering it at 15V. Just make sure it's a solidly regulated 15V since you are pushing the limits of the BBD at that level.
Just to clarify max voltage is actually 16V with 15V typical, 18V is terminal, so there's a bit of play, just don't push your luck ;)
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO - FIXED
Post by: RobA on August 12, 2014, 03:52:37 PM
Quote from: Scruffie on August 12, 2014, 04:36:43 AM
Quote from: RobA on August 12, 2014, 04:21:10 AM
If you've got the MN3007 in there, I think it's definitely worth powering it at 15V. Just make sure it's a solidly regulated 15V since you are pushing the limits of the BBD at that level.
Just to clarify max voltage is actually 16V with 15V typical, 18V is terminal, so there's a bit of play, just don't push your luck ;)
Yep, I'm just a bit extra twitchy with these since they are getting to be difficult to source. But, I shouldn't overstate things. The extra few hundred millivolts that always seem to be there over the stated value for a regulator aren't going to hurt anything.
Title: Re: Pork Barrel Noisy LFO - FIXED
Post by: wilsona on August 14, 2014, 01:07:20 AM
Well I do have a spare 3007! And I also have a Road Rage - just don't think I can fit it in the box....