Im having a hard time biasing the flanger (i always have a hard time with flangers). Im at the stage of trying to get the frequencies in the 69.9-2.6 range of the manual pot. Whats happening is that i have to get c max at full turn to get it at 69.9 but then when i turn manual cw and adjsut the c range i have to turn it fully the other direction to get 2.6mhz. Turning the manual ccw again just gets me in a vicious circle, having gone back and forth with the process several times. Is this normal? Im getting to the point where the range of the trimmer doesnt get me to the frequency I need to be at within its range.
Any thoughts about this?
Heres a pic. I know i need to post voltages, which i will by the end of the day(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/03/suzu3ady.jpg)
Okay, verified you have 15V at the test point, yes?
Any substitutions made at all?
C26, what value did you use and did you measure the cap prior to installation? Is it a tayda ceramic?
Hi Scruffie. 15v confirmed. I measured all the components prior to installing and c26 was measured, it's a tayda mlcc
What's frequencies can you get it to go between?
Do you have a spare 1M resistor laying around? Try tacking it in parallel with R54, looking at the old schematics, one lists the value for it as 68k -75k, as it's been doubled, 68k doubled = 136k. 150k in parallel with 1M = 130k, close enough for jazz and should extend the range a bit.
Ok, tried a 1m resistor in parallel with r54 but still same problem. I can't get 69.9 with c max at full cw rotation and have to tweak c range to get to that frequency. Then turning manual cw I have to turn c range ccw most of the way back to get 2.6mhz. Then going back to manual ccw again, I get 7.7-57.3khz
That's with the 1m attached.
The trimmers do interact a lot so it can take some time to get the balance right so there may not be an issue but, if I follow, seems like C26 could be a tad too high or tad too low in value... (if I follow I think it's too high) I don't have my prototype on hand to test exactly which with and i'm running on 2 hours sleep :D
It can be finicky, but you'll get there, doesn't seem like there's any major issue, just some tweaking to be done... or a wrong value still.
Just to be sure though, can you give the voltages for IC5, 6 & 8
HAve you tried to follow the mooseapotamus videos for calibrating the A/DA? I was flustered and experiencing the same problems with my A/DA clone until I watched. They help A LOT!
Thanks Scruffie, I appreciate the help, especially on 2 hrs sleep. I hope these voltages make sense....
Ic5
1-4.8
2-4.8
3-11.5
4-0.4
5-0.3
6-11.5
7-11.5
8-8.5
9-5.9
10-5.9
11-7.4
12-99.1mV
13-13.9
14-13.9
Ic6
1-14
2-101mV
3-7.5
4-14.1
5-14.1
6-14.1
7-11.7
8-11.7
9-11.7
10-7
11-7
12-11.7
13-14
14-14.1
Ic8
1-2.2
2-3.9
3-3.9
4-11.6
5-4.9
6-4.9
7-5.9
8-14.9
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on August 03, 2014, 07:47:38 PM
HAve you tried to follow the mooseapotamus videos for calibrating the A/DA? I was flustered and experiencing the same problems with my A/DA clone until I watched. They help A LOT!
Thanks, I didn't know such a thing existed. I was thinking earlier today, I wish there was a video of the calibration. I'll check it out
Quote from: Hangingmonkey on August 03, 2014, 09:00:20 PM
Thanks, I didn't know such a thing existed. I was thinking earlier today, I wish there was a video of the calibration. I'll check it out
Yep! Dont remember if they are linked from his site or not but, you can probably find them by a YouTube search. ;)
Quote from: Hangingmonkey on August 03, 2014, 08:59:13 PM
Thanks Scruffie, I appreciate the help, especially on 2 hrs sleep. I hope these voltages make sense....
Ic5
1-4.8
2-4.8
3-11.5
4-0.4
5-0.3
6-11.5
7-11.5
8-8.5
9-5.9
10-5.9
11-7.4
12-99.1mV
13-13.9
14-13.9
Ic6
1-14
2-101mV
3-7.5
4-14.1
5-14.1
6-14.1
7-11.7
8-11.7
9-11.7
10-7
11-7
12-11.7
13-14
14-14.1
Ic8
1-2.2
2-3.9
3-3.9
4-11.6
5-4.9
6-4.9
7-5.9
8-14.9
11V on ground ??? Are you reading these while still in Hz mode?
I don't think so but I'll double check when I get back from work
Right, well I managed to get the frequencies in range, had to remove the 1m parallel resistor but watching the biasing videos on YouTube really helped as I understood what I was doing better. I havent gone to the next stage of trimmer twiddling as 130am here so will see how it goes tomorrow.
I just realised that some of the voltages I gave were dodgy, mainly due to the new dmm which auto selects and displays units, even mV which I'm not used to and didn't realise that's what I was reading. Sorry for all the noob errors, and I'm coming up to 3 yrs of building as well!!! (Slaps forehead)
Anyway, I hope these readings make sense.
Ic 5
1-14
2-14
3-0.1
4-7.3
5-5.7
6-0
7-0.4
8-0
9-0
10-0.3
11-0.3
12-0
13-0.26
14-11
Ic6
1-14.2
2-0.1
3-7.4
4-14.3
5-14.3
6-14.3
7-0
8-0
9-0
10-7.1
11-7.1
12-0
13-14.2
14-14.3
Ic8
1-2.3
2-4
3-3.9
4-0
5-5
6-5
7-5.8
8-15.1
Hope they make sense, there's a lot of zeros there, I can see in ic6 they all connect to gnd on the schemo but not sure what a lot of the pins on ic5 do.
Just curious if you got this working.
I am staring down this build with fear and trepidation......
Quote from: blearyeyes on August 07, 2014, 04:56:59 PM
Just curious if you got this working.
I am staring down this build with fear and trepidation......
No, not yet, I've put it on hold for a moment to look at it with a fresh pair of eyes. My above post said that I managed to get it in the correct frequency range, I was wrong. I was biasing it late at night and was exhausted after a long day at work. For some reason I read 2.2Mhz on the dmm as 2.6 and didn't realise till I went back to it the following evening!!!
Going to look at it again on the weekend. Probably going to start by checking all the components.
How's yours coming along?
I haven't started yet, just got some parts etc. still need to Box Laces double ganger and a few more, well actually about 9 more..ha ha. I'm going to have to force myself to finish boxing before I start on the next one.
The doppelgänger is awesome, I built the full sized version and really happy with it. Hopefully I'll get this flanger working by the time you've boxed up your 9
Ah I thought you'd sorted it, other than the fact you've measured IC5 upside down your voltages look okay.
So what frequencies can you sweep between roughly, how high or low has it gotten to?
I've built my flintlock and I think I have it working pretty well. To really be able to kick the tires on it, I need to get it boxed up which is always my Achilles heel. I'll prob try to get that done in the next week or so. I was really intimidated going in but it really wasn't that bad of a build overall.
Just throwing it out there I would socket the clock frequency cap and experiment.
I'm not sure if it's accounted for with this pcb but moving from the sad chip to the mn chip as part of the process meant the clock cap needed to be adjusted to get the same range of frequencies when calibrating it.
Worth halving or doubling whatever cap you have there are experimenting with how that affects the freq calibration
Quote from: LaceSensor on August 10, 2014, 08:01:32 AM
Just throwing it out there I would socket the clock frequency cap and experiment.
I'm not sure if it's accounted for with this pcb but moving from the sad chip to the mn chip as part of the process meant the clock cap needed to be adjusted to get the same range of frequencies when calibrating it.
Worth halving or doubling whatever cap you have there are experimenting with how that affects the freq calibration
It was accounted for, the moose doc having 39pF which was way too high it was reduced to 27pF which is near enough half the original 51pF value so should effectively double the frequency range and hit the desired frequencies as was tested in the prototype, 25pF would maybe be better but is less common. Halving it wouldn't be a good idea, replacing it with a 22pF on the other hand, may be, depending on the what frequencies he can currently sweep between though, it may be an unrelated issue.
It's possibly an issue of range over max and min frequency so just taking stabs isn't a good process to debug it.
which cap would that be? im still on my vacation without access to the board or the builddoc but ill be putting it together rather soon and this would come in handy
Quote from: muddyfox on August 10, 2014, 08:18:30 AM
which cap would that be? im still on my vacation without access to the board or the builddoc but ill be putting it together rather soon and this would come in handy
C26
Enjoy the vacation!
thanks Scruffie! will post a build report for sure as this will be my first ever flanger build.
Quote from: Scruffie on August 10, 2014, 08:11:22 AM
Quote from: LaceSensor on August 10, 2014, 08:01:32 AM
Just throwing it out there I would socket the clock frequency cap and experiment.
I'm not sure if it's accounted for with this pcb but moving from the sad chip to the mn chip as part of the process meant the clock cap needed to be adjusted to get the same range of frequencies when calibrating it.
Worth halving or doubling whatever cap you have there are experimenting with how that affects the freq calibration
It was accounted for, the moose doc having 39pF which was way too high it was reduced to 27pF which is near enough half the original 51pF value so should effectively double the frequency range and hit the desired frequencies as was tested in the prototype, 25pF would maybe be better but is less common. Halving it wouldn't be a good idea, replacing it with a 22pF on the other hand, may be, depending on the what frequencies he can currently sweep between though, it may be an unrelated issue.
It's possibly an issue of range over max and min frequency so just taking stabs isn't a good process to debug it.
I recall even with the moose one I had to experiement with the clock cap think i went 22pF in the end
It was different to the values that were discussed for sure...
Quote from: LaceSensor on August 10, 2014, 11:21:51 AM
Quote from: Scruffie on August 10, 2014, 08:11:22 AM
Quote from: LaceSensor on August 10, 2014, 08:01:32 AM
Just throwing it out there I would socket the clock frequency cap and experiment.
I'm not sure if it's accounted for with this pcb but moving from the sad chip to the mn chip as part of the process meant the clock cap needed to be adjusted to get the same range of frequencies when calibrating it.
Worth halving or doubling whatever cap you have there are experimenting with how that affects the freq calibration
It was accounted for, the moose doc having 39pF which was way too high it was reduced to 27pF which is near enough half the original 51pF value so should effectively double the frequency range and hit the desired frequencies as was tested in the prototype, 25pF would maybe be better but is less common. Halving it wouldn't be a good idea, replacing it with a 22pF on the other hand, may be, depending on the what frequencies he can currently sweep between though, it may be an unrelated issue.
It's possibly an issue of range over max and min frequency so just taking stabs isn't a good process to debug it.
I recall even with the moose one I had to experiement with the clock cap think i went 22pF in the end
It was different to the values that were discussed for sure...
27pF was a compromise, 25.5pF would be the proper value to use but an odd value, 27 was closer than 22pF and worked in prototypes with some range to spare but perhaps on some builds just down to component tolerances (even cap ESR, I am wondering if the Tayda multilayer cap itself might be the issue) it may be a tad too high to get the higher frequencies and we'll put 22pF in the build docs instead... might be a good idea anyway as even if it turns out too low in some cases it's easier to add a small cap in parallel than it is to remove a cap.
It's certainly a build that pushes to the limits so it's not always straight forward.
Something I want to try is halving all the filtering cut offs, with the clock twice the frequency it can be done quite happily, the excess noise added back may go some way to capturing a bit of the old SAD sound (although this A/DA version is actually based on the MN3010 version) which I think is actually where some of the 'magic' comes from... although it will change the overall tone of the pedal of course.
Interesting discussion, thanks for continuing to chip in with help and advice. I'll try some cap changes and report back later today if I get a chance (I'm introducing my son to Star Wars this weekend, so priorities are there...)
Well, I'm pleased to say that I managed to get the manual pot in the 69.6k-2.6m range (finally). Removed the 27p cap and replaced it with a 10p tayda mlcc (measured 19p), I had a batch of 22p tayda MLCCs which measured 32-35p (oddly more out of range than the 27p mlcc) so I went with the 10p in the end. Was fairly straightforward after that with the trimmer twiddling. Hopefully this thread will be helpful for anyone else attempting the flintlock. Still got the 1m resistor tacked on the back of the board in parallel. Was thinking about removing it but as it's in range now, thought I'd just leave it there. Onwards to the next stage...
Ps thanks for all the help!
Quote from: Hangingmonkey on August 11, 2014, 11:21:19 PM
Well, I'm pleased to say that I managed to get the manual pot in the 69.6k-2.6m range (finally). Removed the 27p cap and replaced it with a 10p tayda mlcc (measured 19p), I had a batch of 22p tayda MLCCs which measured 32-35p (oddly more out of range than the 27p mlcc) so I went with the 10p in the end. Was fairly straightforward after that with the trimmer twiddling. Hopefully this thread will be helpful for anyone else attempting the flintlock. Still got the 1m resistor tacked on the back of the board in parallel. Was thinking about removing it but as it's in range now, thought I'd just leave it there. Onwards to the next stage...
Ps thanks for all the help!
Glad you got it there :) This being the case changing the build docs 27pF to 22pF might be a good idea.
And christ... 10pF reading 19pF! Can't believe the tolerance is so bad.
You can leave or remove the 1M, wont hurt, but if you remove it you'll have to tweak the trims again.