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Projects => Build Reports => Topic started by: chuckbuick on August 07, 2014, 02:13:56 AM

Title: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: chuckbuick on August 07, 2014, 02:13:56 AM
So this is an evolution of my MRP-8 (http://byocelectronics.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=49291&hilit=ross+phaser) board which was a devolution of a more ambitious but failed 8 stage project.  The additions to this one are an extra 4 phase stages and a 2P4T rotary switch (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Alpha-Taiwan/SR1712F-0204-20F0A-N9-N/?qs=XnUyGRRDCAcS82XtKKOMHg==) to switch between 2, 4, 8 and 12 stages of phasery goodness.  The other side of the rotary is tied to the stage indicator LED's.  Also added was a Width control a la Mark Hammer (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=48283.msg357987#msg357987) and a Mix control.  I don't know and have never corresponded with Mark Hammer.  But after working through these Ross Phaser boards I feel like I know him a little.  I certainly owe him.  If you're out there, Mark, thanks a bunch for all the info you've shared.

Now a few things that aren't so bitchin' with this build.  My implementation of the Mix control is a little flawed.  The idea was CCW would be full wet signal and CW would be full dry.  CCW is about the normal mix of wet/dry and rotating CW gradually cuts the signal but then the dry signal gets really loud and ultimately spits and sputters.  Seems like it's on the right track but it still needs to be fixed. 

The second big issue is that getting SMD LM13600/NJM13600's is tough.  Mouser got a couple hundred 2 weeks ago and I got some (back ordered the rest).  More aren't expected until late November.  BTW, yours are in the mail, Jason.  And for whatever reason 13700's do not work in these boards.  I haven't tried them in this build but they did not work in the MRP-8.  Also, I can't find my 13700's to experiment with.  Sorry, Rej, but I think they may have accidentally got tossed.  I'll check in with you soon about that.

Parts shortage and Mix issues aside I'm pretty happy with this phaser.  But enough of my words.  Here's the pics:

(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad124/v4hor/Pedals/20140806_181804_zps3c61b8b9.jpg)

(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad124/v4hor/Pedals/20140806_181910_zps40b31073.jpg)

(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad124/v4hor/Pedals/20140806_182030_zpsd75ac3d7.jpg)

(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad124/v4hor/Pedals/20140806_182051_zps5c335940.jpg)
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: jubal81 on August 07, 2014, 02:22:02 AM
That. Is. Gorgeous.  :o


Choose your stages? Mix control? Holy shit, man.


Looks like you used the Mouser 2P4T. It's pricey, but I love the feel on that. So classy.
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: chuckbuick on August 07, 2014, 02:39:15 AM
Thanks Jason.  That 2P4T is great.  And compact.  Works well with board-mounted pots.  Unfortunately I forgot to snap a pic of the bottom of the board with everything mounted.
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: ThePastRecedes on August 07, 2014, 02:54:37 AM
Oh wow, I'm kinda on a bread board binge and I was thinking of doing something like this but through hole.

Any demos?
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: GrindCustoms on August 07, 2014, 03:04:17 AM
Mark, that is the pinnacle of OTA phasers! :o

I still don't understand the problem with the LM13700, it's what i've been using in all my stuff that was asking for LM13600 with no problem, like i told you before.

Anyway, very nice build as usual but this one is particularly badass! 8)
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: jimilee on August 07, 2014, 03:21:04 AM
That's truly incredible!! Btw, mark hammer is over on diysb a lot.
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: TGP39 on August 07, 2014, 03:32:27 AM
Oh my god!  Freakin incredible. That is just a work of art.  I am floored. Bravo!
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: the3secondrule on August 07, 2014, 03:41:37 AM
I am in awe. that PCB is Abso-freakin-lutely beautiful!
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: chuckbuick on August 07, 2014, 05:09:22 AM
Thanks for the nice words, guys.
Quote from: GrindCustoms on August 07, 2014, 03:04:17 AMI still don't understand the problem with the LM13700, it's what i've been using in all my stuff that was asking for LM13600 with no problem, like i told you before.
Yeah, I'm perplexed.  Everything I've seen indicates they should drop right in.  My best guess is there is something different with the SMD versions of these.  But the datasheets don't show anything.  I'll keep looking for an answer, though.
Quote from: ThePastRecedes on August 07, 2014, 02:54:37 AMAny demos?
Sorry.  I don't have any recording gear.
Quote from: the3secondrule on August 07, 2014, 03:41:37 AM
I am in awe. that PCB is Abso-freakin-lutely beautiful!
The way those phase stages go together made for a pretty neat layout.  They go from IC 2A>2B>3A>4A>5A>6A>3B>4B>5B>6B>7B>7A.  Once I laid those out everything else just sorta fell into place.  Routing had to get a little creative but something pickdropper told me once came in real handy here.  "Don't be afraid to use vias.  They're free."  Now, some of my best friends are vias. :D
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: alanp on August 07, 2014, 05:34:14 AM
That is so f***ing sexy.
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: LaceSensor on August 07, 2014, 08:11:47 AM
Just so next level awesome. That should be a commercial product once you fix the mix control.... Epic
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: brejna on August 07, 2014, 10:20:07 AM
Just woooow!!! Your smd work is amazing...
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: the3secondrule on August 07, 2014, 10:28:25 AM
Quote from: LaceSensor on August 07, 2014, 08:11:47 AM
Just so next level awesome. That should be a commercial product once you fix the mix control.... Epic

Yup. In a transparent enclosure.
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: Thomas_H on August 07, 2014, 10:43:53 AM
Thats a really great layout!
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: m-Kresol on August 07, 2014, 11:14:47 AM
what the others said! I really admire your spirit in designing your own circuits and the SMD parts make them even more badass. If you fix the issue (or not) I'd certainly go for one of those.
Keep them coming.
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: twin1965 on August 07, 2014, 11:28:40 AM
Incredible smd work. It looks like it's come off an automated production line instead of diy!


Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: wgc on August 07, 2014, 12:27:00 PM
Quote from: GrindCustoms on August 07, 2014, 03:04:17 AM

I still don't understand the problem with the LM13700, it's what i've been using in all my stuff that was asking for LM13600 with no problem, like i told you before.

Anyway, very nice build as usual but this one is particularly badass! 8)

Mark, this is crazy. In a good way. Really badass good.  I sense an impending run of these...!  ;) 

More solder paste? 

I think the issue with the 13600 vs 13700 might come down to tighter tolerances on smd parts (less stack up).  Not sayin you got lucky Rej, but there's been one or two old circuits I've converted to smd that didn't play as nice with specified pots and I needed slightly different pot values.

Another explanation might be a wrong part somewhere in the hundred or so passives. But I can't imagine something like that actually happening.  :o

By the way, the graphics and LEDs look fantastic too!
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: Leevibe on August 07, 2014, 06:57:44 PM
This is so incredibly pro! I'm stunned!
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: lincolnic on August 07, 2014, 07:11:18 PM
Just incredibly good.
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: bcalla on August 07, 2014, 07:17:04 PM
Work of art.  Really.
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: icecycle66 on August 07, 2014, 07:41:09 PM
i want to kiss this on the lips.
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: chuckbuick on August 08, 2014, 12:59:46 AM
Thanks again, guys.  I fiddled with the Mix control and got it working a little better.  It won't go completely dry so I've decided to call it an Intensity control.  So now it works OK. :)

Now I could just get those darn 13600's.
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: lars on August 08, 2014, 04:28:46 AM
...how?....seriously, your smd work is pure precision.
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: Mich P on August 08, 2014, 06:16:27 AM
Wow crazy job !!
Mich P.
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: juansolo on August 08, 2014, 07:09:57 AM
More awesomeness right there!
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: Cortexturizer on August 08, 2014, 09:30:52 AM
Damn. Some sick things going on here. Definitely sell this to some company and reap the percentages of sales :D
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: teknoman2 on August 08, 2014, 10:05:03 AM
Great built mate.
Totally pro... ;)

cheers.
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: slimtriggers on August 08, 2014, 12:30:05 PM
Stellar work! 
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: rullywowr on August 08, 2014, 02:01:56 PM
Quote from: chuckbuick on August 07, 2014, 02:13:56 AM
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad124/v4hor/Pedals/20140806_182051_zps5c335940.jpg)


Just wanted to "pop the hood" (bonnet for you UK blokes  ;)) to see that fantastic SMD layout again.  Truly inspirational, makes me want to do more SMD layouts/population now.  So clean.  The symmetry of the layout is so eye-pleasing.   8) 

Just a couple dumb questions...this is mostly 0603 right?  Also..the "L" pads at the bottom of the PCB...are those for an inductor/LED/wiring? 
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: jubal81 on August 08, 2014, 03:08:09 PM
Yeah, the LEDs - That's something I noticed. It's not easy to get the switch & leds coordinated and laid out perfectly like that. A brain teaser for sure.
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: chuckbuick on August 08, 2014, 03:54:10 PM
Quote from: rullywowr on August 08, 2014, 02:01:56 PM
Quote from: chuckbuick on August 07, 2014, 02:13:56 AM
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad124/v4hor/Pedals/20140806_182051_zps5c335940.jpg)


Just wanted to "pop the hood" (bonnet for you UK blokes  ;)) to see that fantastic SMD layout again.  Truly inspirational, makes me want to do more SMD layouts/population now.  So clean.  The symmetry of the layout is so eye-pleasing.   8) 

Just a couple dumb questions...this is mostly 0603 right?  Also..the "L" pads at the bottom of the PCB...are those for an inductor/LED/wiring?
Glad you like it.  Yeah, the resistors and most of the caps are 0603.  The L pads are for the LED's.  I ran 9V to the CLR then that goes to the pole of the bottom side of the rotary switch, then out to the individual LED's. The "LGND" pad is a common ground for the four indicator LED's and goes to the usual LED indicator ground on the 3PDT.  I was trying to minimize the wiring.  It only required 6 wires from the board.  9V and GND from the DC jack, IN, OUT, another ground (G2) for the board to the input jack and LGND.  I really don't like cutting and stripping wires.
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: wgc on August 09, 2014, 11:48:25 PM
Quote from: chuckbuick link=topic=16879.msg160517#msg160517
Glad you like it.  Yeah, the resistors and most of the caps are 0603.  The L pads are for the LED's.  I ran 9V to the CLR then that goes to the pole of the bottom side of the rotary switch, then out to the individual LED's. The "LGND" pad is a common ground for the four indicator LED's and goes to the usual LED indicator ground on the 3PDT.  I was trying to minimize the wiring.  It only required 6 wires from the board.  9V and GND from the DC jack, IN, OUT, another ground (G2) for the board to the input jack and LGND.  I really don't like cutting and stripping wires.

Mark, I keep looking at this, super sweet. It makes me rethink the 0805s I'm using. I think my tolerance for enjoying wires stops at about 8; for me, the fewer the better.

I did a little looking at the data sheets on those chips. The only thing I think that might make a difference is some buffering on 13700 s, usually not a difference, but for a phaser, it might need some tweaking.   Also, TI will often provide samples if you ask.
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: micromegas on August 12, 2014, 06:15:06 PM
this is insane!! and cool!
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: davent on August 13, 2014, 12:33:51 AM
Terrifying!
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: jkokura on August 20, 2014, 07:13:32 PM
The SMD skills required for that are unreal. I don't think I'll ever even attempt something so difficult, so kudos to you for not only trying, but executing that build so well.

Jacob
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: blearyeyes on August 21, 2014, 06:59:30 AM
+1 to everything said....Holy Granola man, how's a poor semi noob supposed to keep going?

OK take a deep breath...baby steps....
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: chuckbuick on August 21, 2014, 01:25:23 PM
Thanks guys.  The real secret to doing SMD work is that it isn't very difficult.  A little magnification (I use an Optivisor), and some metal tweezers go a long way.  I also prefer .015" diameter solder and a fine soldering tip.  The rest is pretty much like thru-hole, just without the holes. ;)

Years ago I saw an interview with former World Superbike champ, Colin Edwards.  He said the key to racing in the rain is to tell yourself and convince yourself that you like racing in the rain.  When you do that you have an advantage over your competition.  SMD is just racing in the rain.  Now I have an advantage over these tiny parts. :)

If you think you're interested in giving it a try, pickdropper's No Mojo fuzz is a good way to start.  Also, wgc mentioned in a recent thread that he might be doing a board that is noob friendly so watch for that, too.

Thanks again for all the kind words, guys.
Title: Re: MRP-12 - Modified 12 Stage Ross Phaser
Post by: wgc on August 24, 2014, 01:30:21 PM
So true. There are some learning curves and things are smaller but really not that much different. Lately I'm finding that magnification is helpful no matter what I'm building. 

And I actually do like it better than thru hole. ;)

I'm offering some of my riotous pcbs for sale and Aballen has an smd cornholio. (I also did a cornholio pcb but it hasn't arrived yet.)

This is a magnificent layout/build, regardless!