http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/16/world/europe/many-questions-arise-from-scottish-independence-vote.html?_r=0
This whole idea of Scottish secession has my interest piqued. As an American, the bulk of my insight on Anglo-Scottish relations comes from watching Braveheart 127 times. So I'm completely unqualified to have an opinion, but as an America, that qualifies me to have an opinion and vigorously defend it. ;D
I'm curious to see what our UK folks have to say on the matter. I'm sure we can keep it civil. 8)
Here's a tidbit from the above article that I do feel qualified to comment on:
QuoteIf Scotland votes "yes," it will take 18 months for independence to come to fruition. There is likely to be continued negotiation over a number of money matters.
18 months, my arse! ;D If my company's dealings with UK government is any indication, it will be 10 years at least before the deal would be finalized.
It's a complex situation, that's for sure. Speaking as a Canadian who has gone through a number of referendums with regards to Quebec succession, it seems like it's a generational thing a lot of times. For example, the first time in my lifetime that there was a succession vote (late 80s IIRC), the vote was really close, the second vote (mid 90s), not so much, the last couple of times it even gets talked about there doesn't seem to be much interest behind it. My point to that is this - what might seem like a good idea today may not in fact be a good idea later.
The economic impact will be a mess. How do you divide up proportional amounts of debt and assets? In a country as young as Canada, you could do it with a per capita basis (this is where most people go "Ok, we'll stop talking about leaving"), but in countries with centuries of developed history, it can't be that cut and dry I would imagine. And typically there's expected to be an exodus of businesses following succession, particularly head offices, as they prefer to have stable economic/tax structures in order to plan future endeavors.
Funny story - they had a Scottish economist on the morning radio news show discussing the issue this morning. His name - Ronald McDonald. Now, unless my middle name was Ol', I'd probably go by it, at least professionally.
My opinion is that when it comes to the English, the Scottish are always prepared to cut off their nose to spite their face.
The scots still dislike the English with a passion after all these years, so if they want independence, then good luck to them ;)
Please note the comments above should be taken with a large pinch of salt :)
Quote from: GermanCdn on September 15, 2014, 07:49:47 PMHow do you divide up proportional amounts of debt and assets?
Eh, "Scotland" is practically an 18th century invention anyway. Sort of like tartan patterns and whisky.
Personally, as someone with no horse in this race, I'm rooting for Scottish independence. Sean Connery's been overpaying for his Scotch for far too long.
Plus if their economy tanks, it'll be a cheaper vacation if I ever decide to go.
As someone who is English, I say they should go independent as I personally think England could potentially be better off. I can't see it happening though, they would lose the sterling currency, wouldn't have a army/air force/navy, would need to apply for EU membership which would taken years, their economy would be absolutely ruined with a lot of job losses, their banks are already trying to change the law so they can transfer their head offices to London (their banks add about £8.8bn to their economy I believe), their taxes would increase, a lot of England based retailers so that trading up there would cost more money which would be passed onto the consumer, and they would be plunged back into a massive recession. There are a lot of other negatives, but I believe these are a lot of the main ones. Even if the vote goes no, their parliament will get more powers, which is pointless bearing in mind we are supposed to all live in the UK.
I'm not really informed on the matter at hand, but I have a strong feeling in my gut saying it doesn't make sense to be independent. I'm really curious on how it will turn out and if they'd go through with it, if they vote for "independence".
It seems to me that national pride very often trumps any and all reason, no matter the consequences.
Quote from: midwayfair on September 15, 2014, 08:02:04 PM
Quote from: GermanCdn on September 15, 2014, 07:49:47 PMHow do you divide up proportional amounts of debt and assets?
Eh, "Scotland" is practically an 18th century invention anyway. Sort of like tartan patterns and whisky.
Personally, as someone with no horse in this race, I'm rooting for Scottish independence. Sean Connery's been overpaying for his Scotch for far too long.
Plus if their economy tanks, it'll be a cheaper vacation if I ever decide to go.
That's some funny stuff. He and Rick Mercer should do a show together and do a bit.
Hell yes, I loved that guy in Community. I'm just looking up a few old episodes. Thanks Jon!
From what I can gather, as we Dutch have the BBC on our cable network, there was an earlier referendum in the late 1970's, where the Scots were told 'vote no, and you will get a good deal'. Of course the good deal they got was 12 years of Margaret Thatcher and she used her massive majority from her English MP's (no Scot ever votes Tory) to f*** Scotland over 10x harder then Edward Longshanks ever did. So I think I can understand why Scots nowadays don't have much faith in yet another Tory government, which they again didn't vote for, making them all sorts of promises if only they will vote no again.
Personally I blame football (soccer for you American heathens). For some strange reason the UK is the only country in the world that divides itself up come a European or a World Cup. Since Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland are too small only England makes it to those championships. And what should be an occasion for a whole country to come together now only serves to cause further division. I mean, just look at Spain. The Basques and the Catalans want independence there too and the rivalry between Madrid and Barcalona is bitter. But when the national football teams plays, it has players from the entire country and the whole country unites. Maybe if the UK had sent one British team instead of four separate ones, this charade could have been avoided. And maybe it would have won more often as well.
The underlying question that I find really interesting is that the whole thing of falling apart into smaller national/tribal territories worldwide seems to give mostly an illusion of more self-determination.
Meanwhile globalisation is seemingly a greater actual force in determining everyday life and surpasses the power of individual governments anyway.
Take the TPPA (Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement), it will allow big multinationals to sue governments to obey international trade rules (which are heavily influenced by lobbying of multinational companies) rather than having their own territorial rights.
Europe, the UK etc will have or put similar stuff in place.
So far for independance day...
Just my two cents...
Quote from: Muadzin on September 15, 2014, 10:08:04 PM
From what I can gather, as we Dutch have the BBC on our cable network, there was an earlier referendum in the late 1970's, where the Scots were told 'vote no, and you will get a good deal'. Of course the good deal they got was 12 years of Margaret Thatcher and she used her massive majority from her English MP's (no Scot ever votes Tory) to f*** Scotland over 10x harder then Edward Longshanks ever did. So I think I can understand why Scots nowadays don't have much faith in yet another Tory government, which they again didn't vote for, making them all sorts of promises if only they will vote no again.
Personally I blame football (soccer for you American heathens). For some strange reason the UK is the only country in the world that divides itself up come a European or a World Cup. Since Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland are too small only England makes it to those championships. And what should be an occasion for a whole country to come together now only serves to cause further division.
Sorry but that is a load of old bollocks mate.
Thatcher is always wheeled out as the convenient cause of all the countries ills but the reality is a bit more complicated and layered than that...
The animosity (or whats actually left beyond banter) between the scots and English goes back thousands of years and cannot be attributed to once specific event, time period or political party.
Football doesn't really have anything to do with it either apart from the banter that goes with it. Friendly rivalry rather than pure hatred to be honest. We are all shite and we all know it; just different levels of shite!
It is also funny that 'long shanks' is now considered a psychotic tyrant, who had vendetta against a minority people... because Mel Gibson says so ;)
as much as I love a lot of English heritage( Battle of Hastings, Magna Carta), the "upper crust" still show vestigial signs of a class-conscious society, clinging to the out-moded glory of colonialization
the Scots, on the other hand, have never impressed me as snobs ... except of course, unless it comes to the Irish :)
As lang as th' mcewans doesn't chaynge, it doesn't pure maiter tae me.
"Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedooooooooom!"
My wife was born in Glasgow and has SUCH an emotional reaction to this. She wants independence at all costs just to satisfy her sense of self-worth. There are a number of factors which she is incredibly pissed off about but 2 come to mind.
2/3 of Scotland is owned by absentee landlords, i.e. the English.
When she was at school in the 70's and 80's, they were not allowed to learn Gaelic, by law. They were not allowed to sing old nationalist songs like 'Flower of Scotland' by law! I am from South Africa and this sounds very familiar.....
Again (and I've also had some personal experience with this sort of thing), reality and common sense can often be clouded or just outright dismissed at the faintest whiff of "freedom" and "liberation".
Not saying that's the case here (as I know next to nothing about the matter at hand) but I do see some recurring patterns where folks are getting "gung-ho, consequences be damned".
Quote from: peterc on September 16, 2014, 06:28:38 AM
My wife was born in Glasgow and has SUCH an emotional reaction to this. She wants independence at all costs just to satisfy her sense of self-worth. There are a number of factors which she is incredibly pissed off about but 2 come to mind.
2/3 of Scotland is owned by absentee landlords, i.e. the English.
When she was at school in the 70's and 80's, they were not allowed to learn Gaelic, by law. They were not allowed to sing old nationalist songs like 'Flower of Scotland' by law! I am from South Africa and this sounds very familiar.....
Really...???
Thats crazy :-\
Your wife must have gone to a pretty strict school I guess (may be a CofE or Catholic school; they can be strange places).
My Mums side of the family are all Scottish (Macleods) and my great grandmother could only speak gaelic; she never learn't english. My Grandad mainly used it for swearing (very convenient as none of us kids could understand) :D
There are even gaelic TV and radio stations in Scotland (there have been for as long as I can remember visiting my family there).
Separation between french and dutch seems to be an ongoing discussion here in Belgium too. A couple of years ago the french speaking public TV channel broadcasted a fake news topic anouncing the separation of the two parts of the country. They did not mention it was fake and for a short period of time the whole country was in panic :-)
Being a foreigner, I have no special bond to a party in particular and just keep observing these ramblings with amazement ...
As an English person (which I can prove: "sorry"),
I'd like to add a bit of history, not the Darien Scheme
(an amazing story if you've time). I'd mention earier this year
when the UK government refused Scotland Devo Max (control of everything
except armed forces and foreign affairs - which the SNP prefer) and said
Scotland could have a referendum.
This was probably a cynical largess, the current UK government had a referendun
on proportional representation not so long ago and got what it wanted by asking
people to vote on keeping the "first passed the post" voting method or their own
spin on proportional representation - which everyone agreed wasn't that good.
Scottish politicians are shrewder than the Liberal Democrats (who wanted PR).
If the No vote wins the UK government agreed to a slightly refined version of Devo
Max (which is a start for the SNP). If the Yes vote wins well, it'll be a tough time
for us both (We'll be stuck with the Conservative party because a lot of Labour
support came from Scotland. Frankly I think the Scottish will fair better than anyone
in the UK expects.
British culture is now in a bit of a cul-de-sac - we need to appreciate the values of the
Scottish and Irish people to improve as a society - to my mind.
that doesn't look as much like the opening of Star Wars as I wanted :(
Quote from: frankus on September 16, 2014, 10:33:44 AM
that doesn't look as much like the opening of Star Wars as I wanted :(
lol :-)
Talking about independence. Did you see what catalans did last thusday? It was impressive!!
(http://static.euronews.com/articles/280672/606x811_demonstration.jpg)
Too bad the Spanish government is banning their right to vote.
Amazing pictures: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/12/catalan-independence-referendum-demonstration-in-pictures
That's a long old story...
I'm Spanish and I'm not against independence, but there are 17 different autonomies in Spain and 4 official languages so, to make it fair, every citizen should have a vote, not only those who live in Cataluña. And you have to take into account that Cataluña is already a separated nation... the problem is bigger than it seems.
Yeah... I suspect that the EU in general will make it as hard as possible for Scotland if it does go independant, on the basis that if they don't, then their member countries will fragment as well (Basque, Cataluna, I'm sure there are other EU countries like this.)
Edit: sweary post, you have been warned. But this is politics and politicians are corrupt wankers all, so it's required.
I will have to respond to this properly (if I can ever CBA) when I'm not half-pissed, on hotel wi-fi on a shitty, tiny underpowered net book that just crashed after typing about a page of my thinking on this and is lucky not to be smashed into tiny pieces right now...
But generally speaking, as an Englishman, I couldn't care less. If they want it and vote for it, then good for them. Personally I like the Scots and I think it'll be bad all round if they leave the union, but if that's what the majority of them want, then hey, that's the whole point of democracy.
My reservations are that I wouldn't trust that twat Salmond as far as I could throw him. He's out to put himself in the history books and everything else be-damned. Sure it could all work out, but there are so many question marks that they simply won't answer (and fucking should be able to answer so them not answering them would set my spider sense tingling like a bastard) that I have no belief that they wont fuck things up for the Scots (and everyone else) hugely. That's my biggest worry.
Otherwise, which ever way it goes, good luck to them. You think we like the corrupt fuckwits who govern us? Sadly the English don't get the luxury of being able to divorce ourselves from the UK...
But also, whichever way it goes, please shut the fuck up about it when it's all decided.
Love, Juan ;)
For those not in the UK, and all issues and relative importance aside, I need to mention that this has been receiving huge media coverage for many months now and I for one (no doubt others are too) am sick to my back teeth of the subject as a result. Just my tuppence - carry on, as you were...
I am just amazed that so many people can be sucked in by another greedy politician. scottish or not. Alex Salmond is a shrewd operator, however he is just as bad as any other politician.- not to be trusted!!!!
First +1 to Thorpy. I don't care what country/situation we are talking about.
I can't help but think of the old phrase 'be careful what you wish for' or maybe ' be aware of unintended concequences'. One thing is probably fairly certain is if the vote is a yes and it goes in the shitter later I don't think England will say something like '..sorry mates, come on back and hey you gave it a good go but no hard feelings'.
But as a Southern US'n I have no earthly idea of the nitty gritty details and all the crap that could rain down from all directions. Or maybe it will go great and everyone will agree and share equally and fairly any spoils and debts. I mean with the politicians negotiating what could go wrong :o
Quote from: TNblueshawk on September 18, 2014, 08:13:31 PM
But as a Southern US'n
The South shall rise again!!!1!!1!!! ;D
Used to hear that all the time as a kid. Still waiting on said uprising.
I really don't understand why the Scottish want independence. They have their own parliment. They have their own education system. Really the day to day for a Scott won't change much. Seems to me the risks for Scotland far outweigh the benefits. I spend a lot if time in Ireland and I've spoken with Scott's and Irish in this in pubs.. Great place for a conversation. Even the Irish tend to say Scottish independence is academic. The Scott's who want independence are arguing for ideals rather than pragmatism. The one thing the Irish and Scottish seem to agree on is their hatred for the British. The Irish are particularly bitter. It's seems their subjugation by the crown was much harsher. My view is definitely and outsiders view but that's what I gathered.
Quote from: juansolo on September 17, 2014, 04:28:10 PM
Otherwise, which ever way it goes, good luck to them. You think we like the corrupt fuckwits who govern us? Sadly the English don't get the luxury of being able to divorce ourselves from the UK...
Not much different here in the states, Juan.
a little debate on the matter:
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/9/17/debate_should_scotland_vote_for_independence
They said No. We in England are now going to have a vote on whether to kick them out or not ....I kid....
Well that's that then.
When I went to bed last night at about 11 the BBC had their live coverage on and were already padding out and trying to fill the time (pointless interviews, and pontificating by a variety of pointless panel guests).
God knows how they will have managed to keep going for another 7 hours ;D
Quote from: culturejam on September 18, 2014, 08:41:07 PM
Quote from: TNblueshawk on September 18, 2014, 08:13:31 PM
But as a Southern US'n
The South shall rise again!!!1!!1!!! ;D
Used to hear that all the time as a kid. Still waiting on said uprising.
Sshhhhhh....don't let the Alabaman's hear you. They still haven't got word the war is over :P ;D
Ok...just a joke my fellow Alabaman's! I've got loads of Tennessee jokes :)
Funny, wasn't it somewhere in Colorado, or the whole state?, recently that had a petition going around to secede? Bunch of pot heads 8)
Quote from: TNblueshawk on September 19, 2014, 12:23:00 PM
Sshhhhhh....don't let the Alabaman's hear you. They still haven't got word the war is over :P ;D
THE WAR'S OVER?!?!?!?!?
Damn, I finally got my second round loaded.
Quote from: TNblueshawk on September 19, 2014, 12:23:00 PM
Funny, wasn't it somewhere in Colorado, or the whole state?, recently that had a petition going around to secede?
I would support a state's right to secede. It's the "uprising" that I have trouble with. That sort of implies an armed conflict or some kind of violence.
Oh, how I wish certain states would secede. ;D
Quote from: culturejam on September 19, 2014, 01:39:19 PM
Quote from: TNblueshawk on September 19, 2014, 12:23:00 PM
Funny, wasn't it somewhere in Colorado, or the whole state?, recently that had a petition going around to secede?
I would support a state's right to secede. It's the "uprising" that I have trouble with. That sort of implies an armed conflict or some kind of violence.
Oh, how I wish certain states would secede. ;D
Oh, how I wish sometimes I was in one of them...
Quote from: Frag Magnet on September 20, 2014, 11:00:02 AM
Oh, how I wish sometimes I was in one of them...
Yeah, I guess that's my dilemma as well. Sometimes I'd like to be on the team that's splitting. Depends on who is doing the seceding.
Could be a fun topic for another thread. I think I'll start it now. :)
According to the Onion, the agreement helped prevent a nasty custody battle over Ian McKellen. ;D
http://www.theonion.com/articles/ugly-custody-battle-over-ian-mckellen-narrowly-avo,36968/