So I just put fresh strings on my strat this morning and found a package from Tayda of 12 different dual opamps. I figured the Timmy was so simple and inherently transparent that it would be a perfect platform for testing all of these opamps. The sound I was looking for was no fizziness, tight breakup and very clear note definition. The current opamp I found a little mushy and the breakup was almost fuzzlike in character.
NOTE: This is just what I heard and I am sure this list would change if I was testing them in a different circuit.
Gain: 12-3 oclock
Bass : 7-9 oclock
Treble: 9-1 oclock
Middle diode clipping position
Area '61 bridge/ Area '67 Neck
1. NE5532P: this is my favorite one and the one that is staying in. Best note clarity, still maintains that loose Timmy breakup very slightly but it is very noticeably more "high fi" then everything else.
2. TLC272CP: this has the tightest breakup. If I wanted tubescreamer like breakup this is the one. Sounds very much like the two 4558D's but more transparent.
3. TL072: Very similar sounding to the NE5532P, a little more fizzy and less clear/bright but still (surprisingly) one of the best
4. MC1458L and LM1458N: both nice and clear sounding, the lm1458 isn't as loud and needs to be driven harder to achieve the same level of overdrive but really tames down that Timmy looseness.
5. JRC4558D and CHM4558: nice creamy/tight breakup, very tubescreamer like the chm is the fizzier sounding of the two and slightly brighter as well. These and the TLC272cp are the most "different" sounding of the bunch.
6. JRC2904D, LM358N: both more clear and tighter than the standard 4559 but still maintains the same character
7. JRC4559: Fuzzy a higher gain but great frequency response
8. Tl062: Sounds very similar to the 4559 but fizzy and quite, nothing really memorable
9. LF353P: Flat frequency response, sounded dull and no where near as high fidelity as the others
10. TL082: my least favorite, flat and dull and has a strange buzziness to it that just didn't mesh well
Cool post! Thanks for sharing.
Jacob
Great job, very interesting post and mission you undertook there!
It takes a lot of concentration / time / patience to try through all those op amps without loosing the plot.
Cheers!
The NE5532 does seem to get a lot of love, gotta check one out. Nice work!
If you get a chance, try the BB OPA2134, i found it was similar tonally to the NE5532 BUT a step better in terms of clarity! Again very high-fi sounding, i put one in my Aristocrat build. Although for the price difference, the 5532 is a good op(tion/amp) ;)
Thanks everyone. All of those opamps only cost like $7, I figured it was worth a shot.
Quote from: petesz on May 05, 2011, 10:54:12 PM
If you get a chance, try the BB OPA2134, i found it was similar tonally to the NE5532 BUT a step better in terms of clarity! Again very high-fi sounding, i put one in my Aristocrat build. Although for the price difference, the 5532 is a good op(tion/amp) ;)
Yes! I really want to get a few Burr Brown chips but they're so expensive! and now I have to get one, maybe ill pick one up on my next SB order.
3,5$ for a burr brown, hope it's a very good chip! I think I'll try it ;)
Hmm...makes me want to open up my Tim pedal. I'm guessing Paul socketed the IC. It's one of his early builds with the old breadboard but I never looked to close. I haven't used it for a while for the very reason that unless I'm running at slight breakup it does tend to get a little fizzy at higher gain.
Thanks for opening up a can of worms ;)
Josh
Quote from: slimtriggers on May 06, 2011, 12:37:09 PM
You guys ever see this?
Haha that's awesome. I think there can be slight differences between component quality, but probably nothing that would be obvious in the setting of a live show or fully mixed recording. From personal experience, I've found that a great circuit will sound amazing even with low quality parts. Whether or not it would sound slightly better with mojo parts is the remaining argument.
i think you mean TLC2272CP. There's also the TCL2262 which is also very similar. They are rail-to-rail opamps based on Mosfet/CMOS technology and they clip quite nicely on their own.
Quote from: aziltz on May 06, 2011, 02:51:00 PM
i think you mean TLC2272CP. There's also the TCL2262 which is also very similar. They are rail-to-rail opamps based on Mosfet/CMOS technology and they clip quite nicely on their own.
http://www.taydaelectronics.com/servlet/the-1228/Amplifier--dsh--Instrumentation%2C-Op-dsh-Amp/Detail (http://www.taydaelectronics.com/servlet/the-1228/Amplifier--dsh--Instrumentation%2C-Op-dsh-Amp/Detail)
This is the one I picked up. I wanted to get a TLC2272 but they were out of stock. I think one other person on the web said this one was muffled and bad sounding, I thought it was nice and was about to put it in my Fulldrive until I found there was no socket and I am lazy.
That visual sound guy is right. The opamp doesn't really effect the tone of the pedal but only slightly. It more so changes the texture and attack of things IMO. And in the bunch I tried many of them were indiscernible from one another, but there were a few that were instantly recognizable from the group.
That is a lot of paying very close detail. I must say you have quite a sharp ear! Do you think these results would vary if tried with another circuit?
Quote from: bigmufffuzzwizz on May 06, 2011, 07:05:29 PM
That is a lot of paying very close detail. I must say you have quite a sharp ear! Do you think these results would vary if tried with another circuit?
I think they probably would. If anything with more gain the differences will become less noticeable.
Quote from: slimtriggers on May 06, 2011, 12:37:09 PM
You guys ever see this?
i watched that whole series a while back. i thought the tests were a joke, and people mostly liked what ever pedal was a little louder. also i would guess the opamp choice would have more effect in some circuits than others.
Quote from: JakeFuzz on May 06, 2011, 07:30:32 PM
Quote from: bigmufffuzzwizz on May 06, 2011, 07:05:29 PM
That is a lot of paying very close detail. I must say you have quite a sharp ear! Do you think these results would vary if tried with another circuit?
I think they probably would. If anything with more gain the differences will become less noticeable.
I did some opamp tests in my BYOC OD-2 tubescreamer pedal, the differences are definitely more noticeable with no/little gain. I think because some opamps produce their own distortion and then others dont (as much), so with no clipping happening with diodes etc its easier to hear the opamps own distortion.
Ive seen that visual sound video before.. not sure what i really think of it, i dont believe the mojo 4558 vibe thing anyway, but he is trying to hear a difference between a TI4558 and a JRC4558..? The same circuit from different manufacturers.. ?
I like messing with opamps, i agree lots sound nearly identical, and there are more effective ways of changing the sound of circuits.. and i suppose playing a live gig, no ones ever gonna notice!!!
I just watched all of those VS videos and I think they are all very biased. It is definitely a marketing tool. That guy kinda bugs too, seems like he designs as more of an engineer than a guitar player. Like when he starts quoting the average tactile switch cycle maximum, people like those big chunky switches because they feel and sound rugged; you can actually see the metal parts of the switch sliding over each other and the big ass nut bolting it down to the enclosure. Most people would look at a tactile switch and think "man I could crush this square centimeter plastic thing with my hands" and the big mysterious actuation button just further removes you from whats actually going on in the circuit, he just misses the point on a lot of this stuff. Never really liked VS stuff, that enclosure they use is just hideous.
Guitar pedals are pretty much 95% marketing, 5% real physical circuit and sound haha! :P
Quote from: JakeFuzz on May 07, 2011, 05:57:18 AM
I just watched all of those VS videos and I think they are all very biased. It is definitely a marketing tool. That guy kinda bugs too, seems like he designs as more of an engineer than a guitar player. Like when he starts quoting the average tactile switch cycle maximum, people like those big chunky switches because they feel and sound rugged; you can actually see the metal parts of the switch sliding over each other and the big ass nut bolting it down to the enclosure. Most people would look at a tactile switch and think "man I could crush this square centimeter plastic thing with my hands" and the big mysterious actuation button just further removes you from whats actually going on in the circuit, he just misses the point on a lot of this stuff. Never really liked VS stuff, that enclosure they use is just hideous.
I only watched the one video posted here, so I cannot speak to the rest nor the products sold by VS, but my training in science has taught me to highly scrutinize studies, reports, tests & results, models, as well as the so-called 'myth-busting experiments'. Regarding the latter, there are some good ones found in scientific and applied engineering journals, but this certainly is not one of them.
My knee-jerk reaction regarding this "test" is the results are highly biased for several reasons, to name a few: the presenter was obviously biased, and he tainted the expectations of the audience; the 'control group' set-up was sloppy -- unspecified un-modded pedal including ALL the components, interconnects, and equipment; poor lab conditions which looked more like a game show than an unbiased experiment; and overall methodology. (i.e. the sample ICs were not randomly chosen; and quite simply, he did not test other viable, newer ICs like the OPA2134, etc.)... I could go on and on about accuracy, errors, and sample bias... ;D
I think the video was fine. I saw it back when it came out, and thought some of the same things. "not really scientific," and "obvious publicity." But watching it again, the point of the video wasn't to say, "IC's don't sound different," because they obviously did. I think the point of the video is that clipping has a much larger impact on the overdrive sound than the op amp does in a tubescreamer.
I think if we were to compare the list that our friend JakeFuzz has compiled, I'm sure we'd see a lot of sonic differences in things like the tail of the drive, the gain and performance, but he didn't compare a bunch of different 4558's. He compared a WIDE variety of Dual Op Amps, and his comparison wasn't likely to be more scientific or less opinionated.
Sure, that was a publicity stunt to promote their product in some ways, but I think it's a valid point to make that there's no 'special mojo' hidden within old or special brand opamps. The point was that a 4558 is a 4558 is a 4558. I like them in somethings, can't stand them in others. I like JakeFuzz's review of the opamps in the Timmy circuit, and I think I'm going to do something similar with whatever I have on hand when I build my next neutrino.
By the way, some might not like VS, and I know their enclosure sort of bugs me for it's lack smallness, but the company itself is pretty great. There are some really great people working for them, including R.G. Keen who, if you don't know, is one of the major contributors to the DIY world. I believe he takes care of their product support and repair division (professional debugging) and runs one of the largest and oldest DIY pedal websites out there (GeoFEX). Over on that DIY Stomp Boxes site, R.G. has probably had the biggest impact on my own learning to debug and building of experience. Some of the stuff I'm releasing as layouts comes directly from him, with permission. So if a guy like that can sign up for an work for VS, there's got to be something good happening there. I belive they honestly care about making a good, reliable product. You don't have to like them, or buy their stuff, but I know they're a quality company.
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on May 07, 2011, 09:04:17 PM
I think the video was fine. I saw it back when it came out, and thought some of the same things. "not really scientific," and "obvious publicity." But watching it again, the point of the video wasn't to say, "IC's don't sound different," because they obviously did. I think the point of the video is that clipping has a much larger impact on the overdrive sound than the op amp does in a tubescreamer.
I agree, however, the 'myth-busting' hype overshadowed the simple point about clipping... hence my knee-jerk response. ;D
Quote
I think if we were to compare the list that our friend JakeFuzz has compiled, I'm sure we'd see a lot of sonic differences in things like the tail of the drive, the gain and performance, but he didn't compare a bunch of different 4558's. He compared a WIDE variety of Dual Op Amps, and his comparison wasn't likely to be more scientific or less opinionated.
I learned more from JakeFuzz's post, as it inspired me to seek out more information about op-amps in general. The video did quite the opposite in that regard, but it did make a good point about the other parts in any given circuit. I wish the aforementioned video went into more detail about clipping diodes, caps, resistors transistors, et al... maybe there are others that do.
Quote
... I like JakeFuzz's review of the opamps in the Timmy circuit, and I think I'm going to do something similar with whatever I have on hand when I build my next neutrino.
Man, I really look forward to this. I'd like to participate using a different circuit (maybe the DeadRinger?) once I have an operational prototyping board... I have the parts. Any progress on your headphone amp/buffer-splitter designs?
Quote
... Keen who, if you don't know, is one of the major contributors to the DIY world...
Jacob
Yeah, Keen is great. I am just a beginner, but I have studied his work quite a bit in the past few months, and have learned a lot.
i would say there's a noticable difference between the CMOS/Rail to Rail stuff (TLC2262/2272) and other traditional opamps. Also, if you were to compare JFET Input Opamps (TL072 I think) to those based solely on Bipolar Transistors, you might have an easier time noticing the difference, but you'd have to swap them in the same circuit to eliminate difference because of component tolerances.
I think the biggest difference is, if you let a CMOS OpAmp clip on its own (no feedback clippers) it doesn't sound half bad.. Now let a 4558 clip on its own. YuCK!
I really like when the vs guy starts debunking analogman's website.
Ya know, I can't say what opamp sounds best. But I know from experience that, no matter how much you cuss, an 808 circuit will absolutely refuse to work without a chip installed in the socket :-[
Quote from: slimtriggers on May 11, 2011, 01:16:45 AM
Ya know, I can't say what opamp sounds best. But I know from experience that, no matter how much you cuss, an 808 circuit will absolutely refuse to work without a chip installed in the socket :-[
amen
Quote from: slimtriggers on May 11, 2011, 01:16:45 AM
Ya know, I can't say what opamp sounds best. But I know from experience that, no matter how much you cuss, an 808 circuit will absolutely refuse to work without a chip installed in the socket :-[
i literally laughed out loud a little. :)
Using my Neutrino burst as a test pedal, I found the burr brown to have a mid-hump when compared to the Ne55322, the Ne sounded a little more saturated and slightly scooped.