Apparently Paypal are extending the time buyers can make disputes from 45 days to 180 days, don't think i'll be selling anything to anyone I don't know from now on...
I heard somewhere it was 100 days. Either way, it makes selling with PayPal even worse then it already is!
Yup, 60 days I could get, some things do take 2 months to arrive but this is just open to abuse.
Paypal seems to not realise (care) that not all sellers are big businesses and that there's a lot of dishonest people and in some cases just unreasonable people out there.
Half a year after selling something when your circumstances may be completely different to when you sold something you could get a surprise account freezing and debt warnings.
Oy. In other words they've just extended the "buyer's remorse" period. Sorry, I'm not running a rental/borrowing service for my items.
If they would create a new category of payment type for "goods to be delivered when ready at a future date" and make that 180 days to dispute...I'd be fine with that. It would make a lot of sense, actually.
But having half a year to return something that shipped within a few days is insane. And what about services, such as PCB design? You can't "return" the work product. Rej just got royally fucked by some douchebag that filed a dispute *after* he'd given the guy the deliverables. And that was only 30 days in. I can't imagine having that hang over my head for half a year.
Google Wallet seems okay, but it doesn't seem to have the same sort of overall experience. I can't figure out how to add a simple "buy it now" button to a web page, for example.
Quote from: culturejam on October 12, 2014, 03:36:23 PM
If they would create a new category of payment type for "goods to be delivered when ready at a future date" and make that 180 days to dispute...I'd be fine with that. It would make a lot of sense, actually.
But having half a year to return something that shipped within a few days is insane. And what about services, such as PCB design? You can't "return" the work product. Rej just got royally fucked by some douchebag that filed a dispute *after* he'd given the guy the deliverables. And that was only 30 days in. I can't imagine having that hang over my head for half a year.
Google Wallet seems okay, but it doesn't seem to have the same sort of overall experience. I can't figure out how to add a simple "buy it now" button to a web page, for example.
Need to keep an eye on that guy if he starts selling things with the designs he received.
EDIT: Adding insult to injury, his first klone is a Chimera...
The saddest thing is that he's obviously a very talented builder and his work would go down well here. Quite why he decided to f**k Rej over is beyond me :(
We have a saying at the Delta house. Don't get mad, get even. I think I'll buy one of his Klones using Paypal. Unfortunately, I'm not that kind of person, but Rej deserves way better than that. Everything I have purchased from Rej has come with impeccable service. He responds to every email and goes out of his way to help fellow builders any way he can. We need to find a different online pay service. Steve.
Quote from: culturejam on October 12, 2014, 03:36:23 PM
But having half a year to return something that shipped within a few days is insane. And what about services, such as PCB design? You can't "return" the work product. Rej just got royally f---ed by some douchebag that filed a dispute *after* he'd given the guy the deliverables. And that was only 30 days in. I can't imagine having that hang over my head for half a year.
What exactly happened with this? Is there a thread someplace here or at BYOC?
Quote from: aion on October 13, 2014, 03:07:45 PM
Quote from: culturejam on October 12, 2014, 03:36:23 PM
But having half a year to return something that shipped within a few days is insane. And what about services, such as PCB design? You can't "return" the work product. Rej just got royally f---ed by some douchebag that filed a dispute *after* he'd given the guy the deliverables. And that was only 30 days in. I can't imagine having that hang over my head for half a year.
What exactly happened with this? Is there a thread someplace here or at BYOC?
Yeas. What exactly happened here. I don't understand the point you are trying to make here. You are saying someone filed a dispute AFTER they received the product? When else would they file it?
More deets if you please... :-\
P.S. Regardless of the info... I'm in Rej's corner. Awesome guy...
EDIT: Just to add... I can understand the heartache. There are a LOT of unscrupulous buyers out there. I just had a guy commit to a purchase. The guy then messaged me saying that he "accidentally" purchased the product when he meant to buy another one of my products. I went ahead and cancelled the transaction to be a good guy. YEP... never bought the other one and no responses to messages. Just as well though... if I would have made him follow through with the purchase he probably would have done a buyer's remorse return anyways... :-\
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on October 13, 2014, 03:36:50 PM
Yeas. What exactly happened here. I don't understand the point you are trying to make here. You are saying someone filed a dispute AFTER they received the product? When else would they file it?
People can file a dispute for products/services they haven't received within the agreed-upon delivery time. If they don't do it within the window, they are screwed. So it makes sense to file a dispute BEFORE you receive a product that doesn't seem to be forthcoming.
In the case of PCB design, it's a bit trickier.
The way I work is I take no money until the design is completely done. I let the customer review image files of the schematic and layout and then they approve the work. Then I bill them. After they pay, I send them the Eagle files or gerbers (or both). Once they have the files, there's no way to un-ring the bell; there's no "returning" digital products like you could return a pedal or guitar.
So let's say I do some work for a client. They like the design, they pay me, and then I send them the files. Four months later the client needs money for cocaine or hookers or whatever, so he files a dispute on the payment to me claiming the work was bad or whatever. He gets his money back AND he's got the work product I created (and has ostensibly been making money on it for the last four months). He got free PCB design work, I got fucked on a long time-delay.
That's more or less what happened to Rej (only the time frame was shorter). I'm not saying any more about his situation because it's his deal to discuss (or not). But you can see where a very long dispute window + always siding with buyers is bad news for people who provide digital services.
Tip for electronic products: Contracts. Clear ones, detailing what's being delivered, when, and for how much. Regardless of who PayPal sides with, they can't supercede your ability to form a contract with another person. You can still seek restitution even if PayPal refunds their payment.
Also: Checks. FFS, if you don't trust each other to be paid with a check when doing design work, PayPal refunding your payment should be the least of your worries.
I guess I could ask for a check for payment. But it could take a while to get a check from the UK or Australia. And then you have to worry about check fraud. I can hear it now: "You'll get your Eagle files just as soon as your check arrives and then clears my bank. So sit tight for three weeks."
I still prefer PayPal for its immediacy and fluidity across national borders. And I doubt PayPal will honor a contract they are not a party to. And I'm not going to small claims court in some other state or country for the kind of low-dollar value work that I do. If I were doing $5k deals, I'd probably take a downpayment in the form of a money order or something like that. For a couple hundred bucks? Nah.
Wire transfer is fast too.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: playpunk on October 13, 2014, 07:26:22 PM
Wire transfer is fast too.
Whenever I read "wire transfer", I immediately think about Nigerian princes offering me the opportunity of a lifetime.
Quote from: culturejam on October 13, 2014, 08:04:46 PM
Quote from: playpunk on October 13, 2014, 07:26:22 PM
Wire transfer is fast too.
Whenever I read "wire transfer", I immediately think about Nigerian princes offering me the opportunity of a lifetime.
I'll never be fooled by that guy again.
Once is enough.... :)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
You mean he isn't a real prince?
Quote from: playpunk on October 13, 2014, 09:18:20 PM
Once is enough.... :)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Yes, it should've been.
Quote from: culturejam on October 13, 2014, 07:18:50 PM
I guess I could ask for a check for payment. But it could take a while to get a check from the UK or Australia. And then you have to worry about check fraud. I can hear it now: "You'll get your Eagle files just as soon as your check arrives and then clears my bank. So sit tight for three weeks."
I still prefer PayPal for its immediacy and fluidity across national borders. And I doubt PayPal will honor a contract they are not a party to. And I'm not going to small claims court in some other state or country for the kind of low-dollar value work that I do. If I were doing $5k deals, I'd probably take a downpayment in the form of a money order or something like that. For a couple hundred bucks? Nah.
Money order, then. And it doesn't take three weeks for a letter to arrive from anywhere in the world, and even an international check will clear within a week. If they can't secure a method to pay you in a timely fashion that isn't abusable, it's their problem, not yours. They hired you. If you go to your job, you don't ask your company to pay you via PayPal because it's cheap -- they do it by check or direct deposit, because that gets you your money in a secure manner.
PayPal doesn't have to honor the contract was my point -- it's enforceable under the laws of your state. You have a signed contract, and as long as both of you are in the U.S., it is 100% worth filing an action even for a small claim because you get costs back as well, and I'm pretty sure the action can be filed in your home jurisdiction if that's the governing law -- which means they need to buy a plane ticket to defend. A contract can also provide you with clear repercussions for non-payment -- personally, I go with voiding the exclusivity and nondisclosure clauses. You have to make it clear up front that it's in their best interest to pay you immediately and finally.
Quote from: midwayfair on October 13, 2014, 10:17:52 PM
...
-- personally, I go with voiding the exclusivity and nondisclosure clauses. You have to make it clear up front that it's in their best interest to pay you immediately and finally.
This is an important one and to some degree you have built in protections. With software and I assume other creative works done under contract, the actual author maintains copyright until the copyright is explicitly assigned. If it's for something they want to use to make money on and they haven't paid you for the work, withhold the copyright and use it against them.
Quote from: midwayfair on October 13, 2014, 10:17:52 PM
Quote from: culturejam on October 13, 2014, 07:18:50 PM
I guess I could ask for a check for payment. But it could take a while to get a check from the UK or Australia. And then you have to worry about check fraud. I can hear it now: "You'll get your Eagle files just as soon as your check arrives and then clears my bank. So sit tight for three weeks."
I still prefer PayPal for its immediacy and fluidity across national borders. And I doubt PayPal will honor a contract they are not a party to. And I'm not going to small claims court in some other state or country for the kind of low-dollar value work that I do. If I were doing $5k deals, I'd probably take a downpayment in the form of a money order or something like that. For a couple hundred bucks? Nah.
Money order, then. And it doesn't take three weeks for a letter to arrive from anywhere in the world, and even an international check will clear within a week. If they can't secure a method to pay you in a timely fashion that isn't abusable, it's their problem, not yours. They hired you. If you go to your job, you don't ask your company to pay you via PayPal because it's cheap -- they do it by check or direct deposit, because that gets you your money in a secure manner.
PayPal doesn't have to honor the contract was my point -- it's enforceable under the laws of your state. You have a signed contract, and as long as both of you are in the U.S., it is 100% worth filing an action even for a small claim because you get costs back as well, and I'm pretty sure the action can be filed in your home jurisdiction if that's the governing law -- which means they need to buy a plane ticket to defend. A contract can also provide you with clear repercussions for non-payment -- personally, I go with voiding the exclusivity and nondisclosure clauses. You have to make it clear up front that it's in their best interest to pay you immediately and finally.
Yeah, but enforcing a judgment would be a pain in the rear end, especially if the defendant is in another state. I do some post judgment collections in my work and it is problematic. If the judgment is "only" several hundred dollars it is not worth it.
I do quite a bit of litigation, and any amounts under forty thousand dollars are difficult for our clients to justify. I had a contractor whose client refused to pay a bill of nearly forty thousand dollars with no justification at all, and it was a major headache recovering a major portion of the amount owing.
With that said, it is possible to get an enforceable judgment at a reasonable cost in small claims court in your state, but those judgments are nearly always appealable to a higher court, and New York (my home state) has extremely lenient rules concerning a defendants non-appearance.
The long and short of it is: don't rely on a court to enforce your agreement unless you want to spend a bunch of money on attorney's fees. Get your money in a secured manner up front and make the other side count the cost of chasing you down instead of the other way round.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: midwayfair on October 13, 2014, 10:17:52 PM
If they can't secure a method to pay you in a timely fashion that isn't abusable, it's their problem, not yours.
It's my problem if they would prefer to work with someone who does take PayPal instead of a cashier's check sent by carrier pigeon.
Think about it. If you as a buyer have a choice between two equal vendors, and one of them can take payment in 10 minutes while the other will take 10 days...who you gonna pick? Maybe you, Jon, would prefer to mail a check and wait. But just about everyone else is going to go with expedience, all other things being equal. Especially for the small amounts that PCB design usually runs (<$500 per transaction). And that really makes pro se legal action even less likely. Why would I throw even more time away filing motions over such small amounts?
I mean, if I were the world's best pedal PCB designer, maybe I could demand that my clients courier me cash in bundles of small, non-sequential bills. But there are 10 guys on this forum that are better than me, so I'm kind of stuck. Or I could just not get money. But I like money. Quite a bit.
But I'm not going to argue about it anymore. We can agree to disagree on how to mitigate risk. I'll just take my chances with PayPal, which, so far, has not caused me any problems. The Rej situation just really shocked me, and made me start thinking about things.
Tried to look for this just within the thread and it might be a stupid question but...
Does this apply only to websites that accept Paypal as payment or will this apply to eBay transactions as well?
I ask because if one thing is certain it is that a great many people out there will try to get away with as much as possible! If this will apply to eBay purchases then I see a huge increase in returns in the future.
One thing is for sure. EBay and Paypal (same company) need to re-vamp their returns investigations policies. Last I remember, I was told by Paypal that somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of all returns cases favor the buyer. So it is almost an invitation for someone to use, abuse, or... In this case.... Steal IP info of a purchase and be guaranteed their money back!
was reading over this
https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#7 (https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#7)
Quote7.3 Ineligible Items. PayPal Buyer Protection only applies to PayPal payments for certain tangible, physical goods. Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Buyer Protection:
one of the items is "Custom made items"
QuoteEven if your payment is not eligible for PayPal Buyer Protection, you can file a Dispute and resolve the issue directly with the Seller, however, PayPal will not find in your favor if you escalate a Dispute to a Claim when an item is not eligible for PayPal Buyer Protection.
I wonder if that applies here.
Cody
Just saw this, about the Chimaera.... i had sent some of those while i was waiting for the said product to be verified.
People who buys our layouts can do whatever they want with them, other than selling them as kits without our permission.
This was a shitty situation, that i won't get in publicly and that is now a thing from the past.
Rej
Great eye, Cody. That's indeed very interesting.
I'm thinking that all invoices for PCB design work should include the word "custom" as much as possible.
Quote from: selfdestroyer on October 14, 2014, 03:08:00 AM
was reading over this
https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#7 (https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#7)
Quote7.3 Ineligible Items. PayPal Buyer Protection only applies to PayPal payments for certain tangible, physical goods. Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Buyer Protection:
one of the items is "Custom made items"
QuoteEven if your payment is not eligible for PayPal Buyer Protection, you can file a Dispute and resolve the issue directly with the Seller, however, PayPal will not find in your favor if you escalate a Dispute to a Claim when an item is not eligible for PayPal Buyer Protection.
I wonder if that applies here.
Cody
Thanks for finding that, Cody!
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on October 14, 2014, 02:57:03 AM
One thing is for sure. EBay and Paypal (same company) need to re-vamp their returns investigations policies. Last I remember, I was told by Paypal that somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of all returns cases favor the buyer. So it is almost an invitation for someone to use, abuse, or... In this case.... Steal IP info of a purchase and be guaranteed their money back!
Somehow they're going to have to figure this one out, or they will lose a massive amount of business. I can see expanding the claim window to say 60 - 90 days for Items Not Received, as there have been a half dozen occurences with me personally where I haven't received something in the 45 day timeframe (in all but one case I eventually got them), and it's easy enough for sellers to protect themselves from it with Delivery Confirmation.
But 180 days for Significantly Not As Described? Nothing after 6 months of use is as described. A brand new guitar after six months in no longer new. If they don't put some rules around it, there will be a different payment method in the not too distant future.
Quote from: GermanCdn on October 14, 2014, 01:43:29 PM
But 180 days for Significantly Not As Described? Nothing after 6 months of use is as described. A brand new guitar after six months in no longer new. If they don't put some rules around it, there will be a different payment method in the not too distant future.
Paypal will once again be its own company. Ebay is spinning it off. Maybe that will result is more sane policies going forward.