I like to sell a few pedals from time to time not making much money but a little extra for the next parts purchase. I don't really have any local connections so I've mostly sold via ebay... first mistake right? haha. well I sold a germanium fuzz face which I built a while back, I breadboarded it and swapped out trannies until it sounded good (i'm using MP20A russians). The guy I sold it to gets it and is disappointed with it, he says "I purchased a fuzz face, this is not a fuzz face this sounds more like an overdrive." I'm not the biggest fuzz afficionado so ok maybe it's not quite right... I don't really take issue with that. The guy has just been a smug asshole which is just infuriating. To quote him "I'm 55 years old, I've played more fuzzes than the hairs on your head and this is not a fuzzface" Now he is demanding I refund him and pay return shipping because the product was not as advertised... ugh...
I only sell locally for this reason. I offer to allow the buyer play before buying so they know what they are getting.
I guess an alternative might be to make a demo that they can listen to.
Only advice I can give is you change the wording on your listings, don't call it a "Fuzz Face", call it a "Germanium Fuzz with onboard voltage conversion" and then in the description explain that you've taken the inspiration from the FF and put a modern spin on it to create a pedal which captures the essence of the old with the convenience of the new, or something along those lines.
The problem with selling clones as clones is sometimes all people are looking to buy are......clones. They may just want a TS808 (as an example), not a TS808 with Keeley mods, not a Green Bean, not a YATS convertible, just a plain old TS808. And if that's what you're listing it as, that's what it probably should be (I know, it's counterintuitive to most DIY build thinking, when we're constantly trying to put more features in less space, but it happens).
Truthfully, with the new PP rules, I'm surprised ebay even allows the sale of clones, as it seems like a slam dunk for the "Item not as described" category.
Touch wood I've not really been bitten on ebay selling pedals yet. I suspect it's only a matter of time though. The new paypal rules have you so by the balls as a seller in that if he decides to be an arse about it, he can wait 6 months before fucking you over and just saying he never received it (it'll have vanished from ebay by then). Then you'll be down the costs and the pedal... I'm really dreading that happening with something.
Yeah I've had pretty good luck so far, and that is good advice with the wording on the listing. I will definitely learn from this experience. I'm not even really upset about him asking to return it. It's just frustrating when people have that "I know so much better than you" attitude. It feels like an insult to my work. I know I can't take it personally, just take my lumps and move on but sometimes its hard to do that.
I've only sold a couple of pedals on Ebay, but they were modded boss pedals. one was a flanger and one was a ds-1. The ds-1 came back and I ended up refunding the guy. After I refunded him I opened the pedal only to find out he was inside it and replace a couple of the components I had swapped. Thus ending my EBay-ing of pedals. I only sell locally and by word of mouth. I sell to fund, that is all.
I need to get into the local market... I live in a small town and don't really have any connections with musicians. The local music store is not great and they were kind of rude to me when I merely asked if they would consign some of my builds... So I'm stuck with ebay.. I've had limited success with craigslist... Maybe I just need to find other ways to fund my hobby.
Nah you can do it. Where do you live? I'm sure there is some sort of music community. Check out a neighboring town. Or even the dreaded facebook. Start a blog and make a facebook page. it might help
Quote from: Luke51411 on December 08, 2014, 01:16:56 PM
Now he is demanding I refund him and pay return shipping because the product was not as advertised... ugh...
Ummm...
Last I remember, the BUYER is on the hook for return shipping costs. Think about it... you didn't exactly "make" any money on shipping. Whatever the buyer paid in shipping costs was used to ship the product. Might want to look into that. ;)
Also, the guy's argument is strawman anyways. There is NO definitive sound to a Germanium Fuzz Face! The simple fact that germaniums change characteristics with temperature virtually ensure that each will vary unit to unit.
Why do you think Jimi Hendrix auditioned dozens of Fuzz Faces before picking HIS?
BTW... about the "I've played more Fuzzes than hairs on your head" comment. TELL HIM YOU ARE BALD! This totally wreaks like buyers remorse. Sorry bro :-\
I have always been wary of people wanting me to build em a dirt pedal. Overdrives are mostly okay, but to build a fuzz for somebody - especially a vintage circuit with germanium transistors, that can be hard on ya - as you've seen.
Most of you remember my Miles Ahead build (if not do a search on the forum) which is a fuzz face platform with perfect parts and also contains a voltmeter that displays the voltage on Q2's colector in real time. I've sold it to a buddy and he used it for a year and now he is obsessing over toan all of a sudden, and has bought like 7-8 dirt pedals/fuzzes in the last couple of months and the cannot find "that" toan that he likes, all of a sudden my Miles Ahead fuzz is not right for him and all, so I am gonna build him a Wolfshirt in exchange for it. Can't really see it go on classifieds for like 50 EUR (which is what he wanted to do), no sir. So it's getting back to me. Um...yay? I guess. But still.
It's so hard with selling and making fuzzes for other people. I mean, I've had nothing but good experiences, all in all I've sold something like 10 pedals on commission but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. It's so much easier building a delay or a chorus for another human being. Dirt pedals seem to be hard in this regard. I dunno.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on December 08, 2014, 03:59:21 PM
Quote from: Luke51411 on December 08, 2014, 01:16:56 PM
Now he is demanding I refund him and pay return shipping because the product was not as advertised... ugh...
Ummm...
Last I remember, the BUYER is on the hook for return shipping costs. Think about it... you didn't exactly "make" any money on shipping. Whatever the buyer paid in shipping costs was used to ship the product. Might want to look into that. ;)
Nope. With ebay's money back guarantee and the 6 month "Significantly not as described" policy, seller is on the hook for return shipping.
Quote from: GermanCdn on December 08, 2014, 04:04:09 PM
Nope. With ebay's money back guarantee and the 6 month "Significantly not as described" policy, seller is on the hook for return shipping.
WOW!!! They are just trying their best to push every non-big business seller out the door huh?
I personally dread selling on eBay. I have had 95% good deals and I carry 100% feedback but.... that feedback has come at some costs :-\
This guy probably ran his fuzz face after an unbuffered wah pedal. Yeah, no fuzz face in the world is going to sound right in that setup.
I don't know how much this would help in the future with this particular issue in the future but I have had people ask me for sound samples. Is there a way to embed a sample in an ebay listing?
I'm not sure of embedding a sound sample but you could do a quick demo video of the pedal they are bidding on and put the link in the post.
There's too many potential scams and scammers around that play the system for free stuff. I quit paypal after I sold a guy a pedal on the forum, he waited until almost the end of the grace period and then reported it as "not as described". He refused to send it back and made a claim. Paypal told him to send it back for a refund. He sent an empty box with a tracking number and paypal refunded him (took the money from my balance) AND he got to keep the pedal. As soon as he got the "refund" he put the pedal back up for sale on the forum, and for MORE than I charged in the first place. Obviousy a scam from the start. I'm out the time and money building the pedal AND the cost of shipping AND the full value of the refund. No more paypal for me.
Quote from: Torgoslayer on December 08, 2014, 07:10:29 PM
There's too many potential scams and scammers around that play the system for free stuff. I quit paypal after I sold a guy a pedal on the forum, he waited until almost the end of the grace period and then reported it as "not as described". He refused to send it back and made a claim. Paypal told him to send it back for a refund. He sent an empty box with a tracking number and paypal refunded him (took the money from my balance) AND he got to keep the pedal. As soon as he got the "refund" he put the pedal back up for sale on the forum, and for MORE than I charged in the first place. Obviousy a scam from the start. I'm out the time and money building the pedal AND the cost of shipping AND the full value of the refund. No more paypal for me.
You have a LOT more restraint than I do my friend! >:(
I hope that this person is not still here...
Wow... the lengths people will go... I could never do something like that because, Karma. (And also the fact that I am a generally decent human being)
Quote from: Torgoslayer on December 08, 2014, 07:10:29 PM
There's too many potential scams and scammers around that play the system for free stuff. I quit paypal after I sold a guy a pedal on the forum, he waited until almost the end of the grace period and then reported it as "not as described". He refused to send it back and made a claim. Paypal told him to send it back for a refund. He sent an empty box with a tracking number and paypal refunded him (took the money from my balance) AND he got to keep the pedal. As soon as he got the "refund" he put the pedal back up for sale on the forum, and for MORE than I charged in the first place. Obviousy a scam from the start. I'm out the time and money building the pedal AND the cost of shipping AND the full value of the refund. No more paypal for me.
Wait. You had proof that he posted the pedal he claimed to send back for a refund and you didn't reopen the claim? It's clear fraud. Did you take screenshots of his forum post and send them to PayPal? I need to hear more about this one, because it's much more egregious than the usual buyer's remorse stories.
I use Ebay as a last resort, and mainly sell the few pedals I make (that I don't keep) on Reverb. I find it hard to do anything, but break even or lose money on Ebay given their outrageous fees. Then if you have a problem you definitely end up paying out more than you take in. As mentioned earlier always include a link to a youtube video so there is no question of how the product sounds. Last but not least, use Reverb.com There isn't as much traffic as Ebay, but they don't rob you either. I've had some crap experiences on Ebay, as I'm sure everyone has.
Quote from: Luke51411 on December 08, 2014, 01:16:56 PM
I like to sell a few pedals from time to time not making much money but a little extra for the next parts purchase. I don't really have any local connections so I've mostly sold via ebay... first mistake right? haha. well I sold a germanium fuzz face which I built a while back, I breadboarded it and swapped out trannies until it sounded good (i'm using MP20A russians). The guy I sold it to gets it and is disappointed with it, he says "I purchased a fuzz face, this is not a fuzz face this sounds more like an overdrive." I'm not the biggest fuzz afficionado so ok maybe it's not quite right... I don't really take issue with that. The guy has just been a smug asshole which is just infuriating. To quote him "I'm 55 years old, I've played more fuzzes than the hairs on your head and this is not a fuzzface" Now he is demanding I refund him and pay return shipping because the product was not as advertised... ugh...
In a situation like this, I would just show him the schematic used for the build and say 'this is what it is'. What the pedal sounds like is entirely subjective, and partially defendant on his other gear. The circuit can be objectively shown to be what you say it is.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on December 08, 2014, 04:08:02 PM
Quote from: GermanCdn on December 08, 2014, 04:04:09 PM
Nope. With ebay's money back guarantee and the 6 month "Significantly not as described" policy, seller is on the hook for return shipping.
WOW!!! They are just trying their best to push every non-big business seller out the door huh?
I personally dread selling on eBay. I have had 95% good deals and I carry 100% feedback but.... that feedback has come at some costs :-\
<rant mode>
Yup, it's loaded against the seller like you wouldn't believe now. It's bitten them in the arse in the UK, there's so few listings that even if you say UK only, it still brings up international stuff so it doesn't look like there's nothing up there. Free listings haven't fixed it either.
Them taking bites out of shipping, that really pisses me off. Shipping is f**king shipping. It's what it costs. Some people took the piss and their solution was to take a percentage from the shipping as well as the auction fees and the paypal fees.
I really, really f**king hate ebay.
What I hate most about it is that it's the only way to sell stuff to people who aren't almighty pikeys. I have to put a 20% markup on things I sell on ebay to come close to covering the costs. Yet they'll sell there and not on the music forums. Some weird fruits out there.
</rant mode>
Quote from: juansolo on December 08, 2014, 09:56:34 PM
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on December 08, 2014, 04:08:02 PM
Quote from: GermanCdn on December 08, 2014, 04:04:09 PM
Nope. With ebay's money back guarantee and the 6 month "Significantly not as described" policy, seller is on the hook for return shipping.
WOW!!! They are just trying their best to push every non-big business seller out the door huh?
I personally dread selling on eBay. I have had 95% good deals and I carry 100% feedback but.... that feedback has come at some costs :-\
<rant mode>
Yup, it's loaded against the seller like you wouldn't believe now. It's bitten them in the arse in the UK, there's so few listings that even if you say UK only, it still brings up international stuff so it doesn't look like there's nothing up there. Free listings haven't fixed it either.
Them taking bites out of shipping, that really pisses me off. Shipping is f**king shipping. It's what it costs. Some people took the piss and their solution was to take a percentage from the shipping as well as the auction fees and the paypal fees.
I really, really f**king hate ebay.
What I hate most about it is that it's the only way to sell stuff to people who aren't almighty pikeys. I have to put a 20% markup on things I sell on ebay to come close to covering the costs. Yet they'll sell there and not on the music forums. Some weird fruits out there.
</rant mode>
Yeah the shipping thing... that really pissed me off when I discovered it after several years of not selling... Not to mention taking 10% and then paypal taking their share when they are the same damn business...
Quote from: Torgoslayer on December 08, 2014, 07:10:29 PM
There's too many potential scams and scammers around that play the system for free stuff. I quit paypal after I sold a guy a pedal on the forum, he waited until almost the end of the grace period and then reported it as "not as described". He refused to send it back and made a claim. Paypal told him to send it back for a refund. He sent an empty box with a tracking number and paypal refunded him (took the money from my balance) AND he got to keep the pedal. As soon as he got the "refund" he put the pedal back up for sale on the forum, and for MORE than I charged in the first place. Obviousy a scam from the start. I'm out the time and money building the pedal AND the cost of shipping AND the full value of the refund. No more paypal for me.
Which forum and which user? Hate these wankers.
Unfortunately, they're still a necessary evil, cause selling things on Reverb doesn't get the exposure it needs, selling things on TGP exposes you to the same risks with PP (the 6 month thing is a PP thing, not strictly an ebay thing), selling things locally limits your market severely, unless you live in a major center.
I really want to unload some stuff before I move, cause I simply don't need it (and the CDN$ has gone to crap, so I can sell stuff in US$ as usual and make more money), but I'm waiting until the 6 month thing with PP has had some time to breath, cause it has to change in some fashion. Item Not Received is easy enough to work around with Signature Confirmation (cheap, it's like $1.50, build it into the shipping price), but that whole six month Not As Described it stupid. If I buy six pairs of socks new today on ebay, six months from now they will not be as described. Can I get my money back, please, they have holes in the toes.
The whole shipping charge thing was caused by sellers, unfortunately, who decided to underprice their goods and jack up the selling costs, making a net zero change to the buyer but letting the seller keep more money. All that being said, it's still a PITA, because every second email I get is on shipping items, with the good old "USPS.com tells me it's $72 to ship, why are you charging $90". Because I need to buy a Uline box, get it insured, pay ebay and PP 13%, etc, etc. I'm losing money on the deal everytime.
The whole 10% from shipping was actually kind of stupid. All it did was cause the same problem they were trying to prevent. Sellers jacking up the prices to ensure they get more money.
Vicious circle.
Ebay Sale profit = 10-13% depending on item classification
Ebay shipping profit = 10% of shipping price
Paypal transfer fee = ~6%
That's all a pretty hefty profit and a pain in the rear when you are selling a pedal for $80+ shipping and only making like $60 :-\
Yup, I stick a 20% mark up on everything and still usually come out less well off than when I sell stuff privately.
Quote from: Luke51411 on December 08, 2014, 03:05:32 PM
It's just frustrating when people have that "I know so much better than you" attitude. It feels like an insult to my work. I know I can't take it personally, just take my lumps and move on but sometimes its hard to do that.
You should tell the guy, "if you know so much more than me about fuzz pedals, why didn't
YOU build one yourself?"
Lars, you should send your Chimpanzee to get his money back for him!
Quote from: GermanCdn on December 08, 2014, 10:14:20 PM
Unfortunately, they're still a necessary evil, cause selling things on Reverb doesn't get the exposure it needs
Really? I've had a lot of luck with Reverb so far. No problems, and stuff usually sells very quickly. The cut they take is pretty negligible, and I've been able to work out deals outside of Reverb through their messaging system since they don't stop you from exchanging email addresses with people like eBay does.
A few months ago, one of their featured listings was an OCD clone that I'd sold on the Duncan forums a few years ago. The thing sold fast and for much more than I had originally sold it for.
Closest I've gotten to selling ANYTHING (apart from PCB's, and support for them is another tin of bees) was *loaning* my Chimaira to someone.
Damn thing came back dead. Still need to remember to order the replacement funky diode that the PSU in the Klon uses.
Mind you, I first loaned it to someone else (my supervisor at work) and not only did it come back the same way it went out, he recorded several clips with it that he played loudly at work the next day on the stereo :) (loaned him my Doppelganger 1.4 and Pharoah atm.)
Quote from: midwayfair on December 08, 2014, 08:51:11 PM
Quote from: Torgoslayer on December 08, 2014, 07:10:29 PM
There's too many potential scams and scammers around that play the system for free stuff. I quit paypal after I sold a guy a pedal on the forum, he waited until almost the end of the grace period and then reported it as "not as described". He refused to send it back and made a claim. Paypal told him to send it back for a refund. He sent an empty box with a tracking number and paypal refunded him (took the money from my balance) AND he got to keep the pedal. As soon as he got the "refund" he put the pedal back up for sale on the forum, and for MORE than I charged in the first place. Obviousy a scam from the start. I'm out the time and money building the pedal AND the cost of shipping AND the full value of the refund. No more paypal for me.
Wait. You had proof that he posted the pedal he claimed to send back for a refund and you didn't reopen the claim? It's clear fraud. Did you take screenshots of his forum post and send them to PayPal? I need to hear more about this one, because it's much more egregious than the usual buyer's remorse stories.
Yep, I had the original sales post from here at madbean, the posts where he tried to modify it after he got it and screwed it up and was asking for tech help, the post where he bragged about paypal ruling in his favor after he "returned" it, AND his reposted sale of the "returned" pedal from here at madbean. I also compiled all of his threatening emails where he tried to get me to refund without returning it, and some communications where he threatened my ebay user account (which is weird because ebay wasn't involved so he did a little stalking or something). Paypal made their "final" decision based on the tracking # of the empty box he sent me. My appeals were denied. I was told that I would have had to had the insight to make the post office open the package in the presence of police in order to prove the fraud. He technically committed mail fraud too by insuring the nonexistant contents. I should note that all this took place over a year, so a lot of deadliines went by. That's why the scammer waits until the last minute to start the BS. I give away or throw away, but I do not sell anymore.
^Does this scumbag have a name?
dave
Quote from: Torgoslayer on December 09, 2014, 06:52:41 PM
Quote from: midwayfair on December 08, 2014, 08:51:11 PM
Quote from: Torgoslayer on December 08, 2014, 07:10:29 PM
There's too many potential scams and scammers around that play the system for free stuff. I quit paypal after I sold a guy a pedal on the forum, he waited until almost the end of the grace period and then reported it as "not as described". He refused to send it back and made a claim. Paypal told him to send it back for a refund. He sent an empty box with a tracking number and paypal refunded him (took the money from my balance) AND he got to keep the pedal. As soon as he got the "refund" he put the pedal back up for sale on the forum, and for MORE than I charged in the first place. Obviousy a scam from the start. I'm out the time and money building the pedal AND the cost of shipping AND the full value of the refund. No more paypal for me.
Wait. You had proof that he posted the pedal he claimed to send back for a refund and you didn't reopen the claim? It's clear fraud. Did you take screenshots of his forum post and send them to PayPal? I need to hear more about this one, because it's much more egregious than the usual buyer's remorse stories.
Yep, I had the original sales post from here at madbean, the posts where he tried to modify it after he got it and screwed it up and was asking for tech help, the post where he bragged about paypal ruling in his favor after he "returned" it, AND his reposted sale of the "returned" pedal from here at madbean. I also compiled all of his threatening emails where he tried to get me to refund without returning it, and some communications where he threatened my ebay user account (which is weird because ebay wasn't involved so he did a little stalking or something). Paypal made their "final" decision based on the tracking # of the empty box he sent me. My appeals were denied. I was told that I would have had to had the insight to make the post office open the package in the presence of police in order to prove the fraud. He technically committed mail fraud too by insuring the nonexistant contents. I should note that all this took place over a year, so a lot of deadliines went by. That's why the scammer waits until the last minute to start the BS. I give away or throw away, but I do not sell anymore.
So this was in the U.S., right?
Make a claim at the post office for mail fraud. I don't think the statute is less than a year on that.
The postal service takes that stuff pretty seriously - they have investigators and stuff. You might not get any money back, but hey, maybe that jerk will end up in federal prison!
If he's doing it you, he's doing it to others.
I believe there's still legal recourse for you with pp, via arbitration, though probably not worth it. However, if no one fights back, we all lose.
Always makes me sad to hear these things.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the "offender" is probably not a frequent visitor or probably has not been on here for quite some time.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
(http://www.agfc.com/speciesPhotos/fish_bass_smallmouth.jpg)
I sell some pedals, to get some money to buy parts, too. No problems with ebay so far but I see the dangers too. Also ebay takes good profit from you, so overall is not a great option I recon.
I think a sound clip is important, so you let know the customer how the thing sound, and potentially avoiding complaints. Anyway I don't sell vintage germanium based stuff, overdrives or big muff variants or that kind of stuff are more consistent unit to unit and will give less surprises.
Direct sell is much better option, for many reasons, but it can be difficult to get in contact with enough people... anybody tried bigcartel, by the way? It's free for up to 5 items, so I thought it could be an option if you are able to make people go to your shop...
Quote from: davent on December 09, 2014, 07:31:18 PM
^Does this scumbag have a name?
dave
Agreed. I say name and shame this douchebag lest he ever tries this trick again (here or at other forums).
Sorry to hear your story too dude. Never ceases to amaze me how some people can be such aresholes and not give a sh*t for anyone else. Can only hope that karma catches up with him...
I'm not about flaming anyone in public and I feel i've kept my karma intact by being chill about the whole thing. It was over a year ago and I don't have any of the physical "evidence" anymore. I don't remember his real name or address, (somewhere in OH,KY,or TN i think), but i'll share his username in PM if you feel you would like to avoid doing business with him. I'm only out like a hundred bucks so I don't feel it was worth the level of retribution some of you are after, and I'm pretty non-confrontational. I consider it a lesson i'm glad I learned on a small ticket item. I now close this hijack.