I ordered a pre-drilled 125B (I shall withhold from where for the moment) and when it arrived, the first thing I noticed was the kind of wonky drilling. Would you guys consider this to be 'good-enough' for a pre-drilled enclosure, in which case I'm being too picky, or does it look a bit of a mess to you also?
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-s7VGnbwjB6I/VIHgVj1xfHI/AAAAAAAASr8/rwB9a9Wb8yc/w494-h878-no/20141205_114140.jpg)
I wouldn't be happy with that. One reason for paying someone else to drill for you is accuracy.
Quote from: bcalla on December 08, 2014, 01:43:05 PM
I wouldn't be happy with that. One reason for paying someone else to drill for you is accuracy.
QFT. That looks bad. I expect that somebody who offers drilling as a service like that should at least be able to do it as well as I can.
Quote from: bcalla on December 08, 2014, 01:43:05 PM
I wouldn't be happy with that. One reason for paying someone else to drill for you is accuracy.
+1
You have cause to complain.
Thanks for the input guys, glad it's not just me.
I sent an email about it on Friday and haven't heard back yet. We'll see what they say.
Far too wonky, even I can do better then that, and that's saying something!
Of course, before you complain, check your template and make sure they were aligned.
Quote from: midwayfair on December 08, 2014, 01:57:58 PM
Of course, before you complain, check your template and make sure they were aligned.
I didn't send a template. It was a stock drill pattern they offered.
Not too picky at all, i wouldn't dream of sending an enclosure out like that.
If you're offering a drilling service you have to have the correct equipment for the job. Manual mill as a minimum IMO.
Looks like mammoth.... Not good enough... Not even as good as mine
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Quote from: playpunk on December 08, 2014, 03:28:59 PM
Looks like mammoth.... Not good enough... Not even as good as mine
It's actually not from Mammoth. I only ever ordered one Mammoth enclosure (powdercoated) and it was flawless.
Quote from: playpunk on December 08, 2014, 03:28:59 PM
Looks like mammoth.... Not good enough... Not even as good as mine
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That was my guess as well. I had a very similar issue with something from them.
No matter who it's from, I think it's reasonable for you to ask for a replacement.
JimBeamEnclosureDrilling.com
Well I was waiting to see how they handled it before naming names, but in light of the email I just received, I have no problem in saying that this enclosure was from Pedal Parts Plus. In fact, here is the response:
"I'm sorry you weren't pleased with the enclosure.
However, I pulled some stock of that same drill pattern, and met with the drillers for them to show me how "off" they were. Honestly, after they showed me, I'm a little confused by why you would complain about the drilling on these. The holes are drilled a little oversized. That way if there are any minor discrepancies, you can adjust the parts so they will be perfectly lined up. The discrepancies in that drill template were extremely minor; and were easily made a non issue by adjusting the parts that fit in them.
We have high standards, and we strive to make sure every customer is completely satisfied. However, perfection isn't easily obtainable; especially on enclosures that were originally designed to be used for electrical purposes inside walls.
I hope you understand I'm not trying to be rude; I'm just trying to be honest. If the enclosure had a real error; I would have gladly sent another one. However, I don't feel that's the case this time.
If you want to return the enclosure, we will gladly refund your money."
So there you have it. Since aluminum enclosures are supposed to go in walls, and not be guitar pedals, then it doesn't matter how they are drilled, and this is indeed 'good enough'.
This will certainly be the last time I order with them. Glad it was on a bare enclosure and not on one of the fancy powdercoated ones...
That is shocking! Whether the holes are over drilled or not, they should all line up in a reasonably straight line and not in a zig zag pattern.
I used to get my enclosures milled by hand (from a template, more or less the same accuracy of CNC milling) and every single hole was 100%, so why a big pedal parts supplying company can't get a machine shop to do a decent drilling job is beyond me, especially when they probably do batches of at least 1000 at a time (therefore getting a bulk rate price). Hell, even my drilling template boxes are only about 0.5mm out, but nothing like your box.
Big hole in the explanation I'm afraid.
If the holes were drilled "oversized" then why are they not all lined up oversized? Oversized is not an excuse for them to not be in alignment.
Someone screwed up. Big deal. Just admit it. I am guessing that they have had a lot of fake complaints and this is their knee-jerk reaction to it -OR- they stuck you with one of their "Blems" and charged you full price. :-\
You should send it back.
I never had a quality problem with any PPP orders. They drilled a relatively complex pattern on an enclosure for me 5-6 years ago and it was perfect. And they always shipped quickly and accurately filled every order.
That being said, I rarely do business with them anymore because of their limited selection, high prices and high shipping charges.
I can't believe that they would let their reputation take a hit like this. They have to know that bad service stories make good forum posts...
Limited selection?
I'm not sure, but I can't think of a company that has more different options for colours and sizes of enclosures.
Try emailing them back and asking them to reconsider. Maybe you should explain that you needed it to be more precise than the allowance for 'oversize holes.'
As for me, I think that if it's a pedal for me, I don't think it's that much of an issue. It does look bad at the angle you've posted, but it's not the worst I've seen on a DIY pedal.
Jacob
Wow, that makes me sad. I wouldn't have expected that drill job or that response.
I had an issue with them a few years ago in which they shipped me a coated enclosure that had been scratched. At first they weren't going to rectify the situation, but when I politely restated my case, they took my word for it that I wasn't the one who had scratched it, and they replaced it free of charge.
It might be worth another shot. Connie over there is pretty reasonable, and I expect that she hears all kinds of stories from people who screw up their enclosures in one way or another and expect her to eat their mistakes.
You'd want it to be better than what you could do at home, and frankly, I'd be pissed if I'd done one like that with my usual method of kneeling on the box on the kitchen floor. If you've paid for it to be done, you have the right to expect that it's in line, and the stomp switch hole isn't.
I think they've probably given a low to fair response. They don't agree, but they'll refund. They have the right to express their opinion, even though it's the wrong one, lol.
Edit, lol, maybe I'm wrong and it's the middle hole that is out of alignment.
The middle (LED?) hole looks a few mm off from the large hole centre.
That is not acceptable for a paid for per drilled enclosure IMO.
I'd politely ask them to reconsider their stance on the matter... Maybe measure how off centre the holes are and see what they come back with?
Quote from: Leevibe on December 08, 2014, 11:02:58 PM
Wow, that makes me sad. I wouldn't have expected that drill job or that response.
I had an issue with them a few years ago in which they shipped me a coated enclosure that had been scratched. At first they weren't going to rectify the situation, but when I politely restated my case, they took my word for it that I wasn't the one who had scratched it, and they replaced it free of charge.
It might be worth another shot. Connie over there is pretty reasonable, and I expect that she hears all kinds of stories from people who screw up their enclosures in one way or another and expect her to eat their mistakes.
I've spent an awful lot of money with PPP (especially in the past few months) and I've always found Connie to be great to deal with. I've had some issues, but they've generally been dealt with.
But that response is really a terrible reply. If that is the limit of their promised drill accuracy then the service has limited usefulness. That level of accuracy wouldn't work for the majority of the designs I've done. I can understand process limits, but I think they should identify that on their site. It'd be easy enough to say that "holes may be off in as much as 0.040" in any direction so we drill oversize holes." That would be enough to set proper expectations.
If it's a standard drill pattern, I would've expected them to knock them out by the bunches on their CNC, but it appears they aren't doing them that way.
Yeah, I was surprised to hear that was PPP and that was their response. Generally have had great experience with them. Even the blems I've gotten (as blems) have been top notch.
Quote from: jkokura on December 08, 2014, 10:44:37 PM
Limited selection?
I'm not sure, but I can't think of a company that has more different options for colours and sizes of enclosures.
When I do buy from them, it's because of their selection of enclosures / colors. But since their shipping is so high, I like to add in a bunch of other things to cost-justify the order. I'm never able to find many of the other items on my shopping list there, I always have to place another order somewhere else.
Quote from: raulduke on December 08, 2014, 11:22:28 PM
The middle (LED?) hole looks a few mm off from the large hole centre.
That is not acceptable for a paid for per drilled enclosure IMO.
I'd politely ask them to reconsider their stance on the matter... Maybe measure how off centre the holes are and see what they come back with?
The LED hole is off to the right and the stomp hole is off to the left, hence the 'zig-zag' look someone mentioned above.
At this point, with that response to what was a very polite initial email, I am done with them. I am getting my money back and never spending another dollar with them.
Quote from: mcallisterra on December 09, 2014, 12:13:09 AM
The LED hole is off to the right and the stomp hole is off to the left, hence the 'zig-zag' look someone mentioned above.
At this point, with that response to what was a very polite initial email, I am done with them. I am getting my money back and never spending another dollar with them.
I certainly wouldn't fault you for not wanting to deal with them in the future after that response, especially if this is your first experience with them. (Not sure if it is or not) But, something about this is really surprising to me. Did you send them the pic in your email? The reply you got made it sound like they just looked at the pre-drilled stock on hand and it looked fine. Yours looks like a "how did that happen?" drill job. You would certainly have done better on your own with a center punch and a step bit.
I don't know if it would be right for you to say, especially given that you've pasted an actual email into your post, but I wonder if it was someone else, other than Connie who replied to you. The suspicious part of me wants to think it was the dude who did the noob drill job. It's hard for me to believe that Connie would defend this. It honestly looks terrible. Way below what I would expect to be their standards. I've never ordered a pre-drilled case, but their parts and powder coating have always been excellent, with the one exception that they took care of.
Anyway, sorry you had a bad experience. I think you're probably the rare exception. Hopefully so, as I have parts incoming from them right now. My advice (for what it's worth) is that if Connie isn't the one you dealt with, address a new email to her and be sure to include that pic. If she was the one who sent you that ridiculous reply, then my opinion of PPP may have just slipped down a peg.
This greatly surprises me. PPP uses a CNC machine guided by software. I've never seen something that off from them, even the blems.
Quote from: midwayfair on December 09, 2014, 01:29:28 AM
This greatly surprises me. PPP uses a CNC machine guided by software. I've never seen something that off from them, even the blems.
I think most one-off stuff is done by hand and the CNC is used for the larger runs, which makes sense as it takes time to program the CNC.
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Quote from: Leevibe on December 09, 2014, 01:18:09 AM
I certainly wouldn't fault you for not wanting to deal with them in the future after that response, especially if this is your first experience with them. (Not sure if it is or not) But, something about this is really surprising to me. Did you send them the pic in your email? The reply you got made it sound like they just looked at the pre-drilled stock on hand and it looked fine. Yours looks like a "how did that happen?" drill job. You would certainly have done better on your own with a center punch and a step bit.
I don't know if it would be right for you to say, especially given that you've pasted an actual email into your post, but I wonder if it was someone else, other than Connie who replied to you. The suspicious part of me wants to think it was the dude who did the noob drill job. It's hard for me to believe that Connie would defend this. It honestly looks terrible. Way below what I would expect to be their standards. I've never ordered a pre-drilled case, but their parts and powder coating have always been excellent, with the one exception that they took care of.
Anyway, sorry you had a bad experience. I think you're probably the rare exception. Hopefully so, as I have parts incoming from them right now. My advice (for what it's worth) is that if Connie isn't the one you dealt with, address a new email to her and be sure to include that pic. If she was the one who sent you that ridiculous reply, then my opinion of PPP may have just slipped down a peg.
I included the same photo in the initial email as I did in the first post of this thread, and yes Connie replied to me, at least it was her email signature at the end.
It is actually my second order with them. My first was about 6 months ago, for some miscellaneous parts and a white powdercoated enclosure with 2 knobs for my Mangler build. Again, another stock drill template they list, yet it came back with an extra hole drilled in one side that wasn't part of the product description. I emailed photos, they agreed it was in error, and sent me a replacement with a shipping label in the box to return the incorrect one. Perfect customer service on a simple error. I know these things happen, which is why I didn't hesitate to order with them again. When I saw this one had issues I figured it would be a similar process, which is why I was so taken aback by the email I received.
Quite frankly, I'm not seeing much wrong with the email response they gave you. It was courteous, and they offered you a solution. What else were you expecting? You can get a refund, so I don't understand your 'I'm never dealing with them again' stance. It's fine if that's what you want to do, but I don't see the rationale.
But you're upset over having a bad enclosure, so that must be taken into perspective. I hope that you'll feel better about the situation soon.
Jacob
I should add too, that a polite email back to Connie stating that you'd like her to take a closer look at your picture, and to point out exactly what you're seeing, might yield whatever other result you're looking for. If you're looking for them to just send out another enclosure they probably will.
If you're wanting a refund, they've already offered that.
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on December 09, 2014, 02:24:01 AM
Quite frankly, I'm not seeing much wrong with the email response they gave you. It was courteous, and they offered you a solution. What else were you expecting? You can get a refund, so I don't understand your 'I'm never dealing with them again' stance. It's fine if that's what you want to do, but I don't see the rationale.
But you're upset over having a bad enclosure, so that must be taken into perspective. I hope that you'll feel better about the situation soon.
Jacob
I was initially looking for a replacement, but the response I received made it pretty clear that wasn't on the table.
I'm never dealing with them again because that email is nothing more than a fob-off of a blatant mistake. You can tell me you're not sending me a replacement and are only going to offer a refund, and that's fine, but don't do it under the guise of the holes being *intentionally* drilled like that to allow for "aligning parts".
I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.
If it did come from PPP let Connie know. She will be more than happy to exchange it or at least refund. I agree with Jacob on the colors and enclosures. They have the best and the best. I also side with bcalla. Their shipping is WAY to high and as for parts...well they are kind of limited. Their prices are a little high but not way off. And their site could use an overhaul...I digress. My thoughts are. If it was for me or a "parts cost pedal" for a good friend I'd let it slide. If I was gonna sell it to someone I didn't know. I would raise the flag. That's just me.
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Always preferred Smallbear to PPP -- the range of parts is like the National Library of New Zealand, compared to a technophile's non-kindle bookshelf, and while the shipping is also painful on SB, the pricing is easier to swallow in light of the range (it's easier to cost-justify, as an earlier poster put it.) Plus SB does some pre-drilled stuff. I honestly don't know if they do CUSTOM, just that they do something.
Oh, and I fully expect a professionally done job to look professional, not like a DIY jobbie.
Damn, after seeing that, I feel much better about my crappy drilling.
I had a very similar response from PPP when I received a scratched up bottom plate with a wah enclosure. They said it shouldn't matter since it's just on the bottom anyway. I had to go back and fourth to get them to send a new one, which they did after I explained that it was for a customer and they deserve a finished product that looks new! In the end, I agree they must deal with a lot of OCD pedal builders (like myself) who fixate on small things and as such take an initial hardline stance in hopes people who are over reacting will back off. At the end of the day, PPP strives for quality so I still use them for powder coated enclosures and such. My two cents: keep fighting for a new enclosure! That thing looks like crap and I'm guessing they will make it right!
I doubt they use a CNC, i do mine on our CNC and have never seen milling that bad.
If its one of their off the shelf layouts they'd have the code, pop the enclosure in the vise, load up the code, maybe set the z co-ord depending on the last job, away you go, perfectly milled holes.
For a result like that the machine must have so much backlash and be poorly maintained.
The fact they are also referred to in the email as "drillers" would suggest otherwise as well.
I managed customer service organizations for many years and had to deal with all kinds of customer problems - some caused by my employer, some by the customer. After re-reading Connie's reply, it is only a reasonable response if she didn't see the photo you sent her. She mentions that they pulled enclosures drilled from the same drill pattern and don't see a problem. Obviously you're complaining about your enclosure, not theirs.
I think I would give them another shot at fixing this. I would reply back with the photo and politely ask that she compare the photo with what she has in stock. I would also make clear that you think the appropriate solution here is a replacement.
If she doesn't agree then I would accept the refund and move on.
Well I tried to ask Connie to look at the photo again, and over the course of the next two emails, the second of which was me asking for a replacement, these were some of the things that were said:
"My point was, even from the picture you sent; I couldn't see the problem."
and in the second email, after I asked for a replacement:
"I'm sorry, but I'm really confused. You do understand that the replacement will be just like the one you already have? I'm not following the logic of sending another one that is just like the one you have and don't like."
So if you're planning on ordering a pre-drilled enclosure from PPP, beware, they all look identical to mine!
Done. Sending it back.
Quote from: mcallisterra on December 09, 2014, 07:42:29 PM
Well I tried to ask Connie to look at the photo again, and over the course of the next two emails, the second of which was me asking for a replacement, these were some of the things that were said:
"My point was, even from the picture you sent; I couldn't see the problem."
and in the second email, after I asked for a replacement:
"I'm sorry, but I'm really confused. You do understand that the replacement will be just like the one you already have? I'm not following the logic of sending another one that is just like the one you have and don't like."
So if you're planning on ordering a pre-drilled enclosure from PPP, beware, they all look identical to mine!
Done. Sending it back.
Wow. Again, I'm surprised. I would have thought that their "high standards" would be above that. She couldn't see the problem? I'm incredulous.
Very disappointing. Sorry to hear that.
Well, it's not the most warm and fuzzy response, but they are willing to take it back which is good.
But it seems like that stance is going to eventually backfire on them. I don't think folks are expecting perfection at their drilling price points, but the execution on that drilling is pretty bad.
I should note that, of all of the pedal suppliers out their (Mammoth, Small Bear, PPP) they are by FAR my preferred vendor. Their have a much better selection of colors than the others and I've had fewer issues with the strength of their coating than with Mammoth (which always chips on me).
But lately, the quality of their powder coating has been much more variable than I have experienced in the past. It's possible that it's always been that way and I am just noticing it because I am ordering more enclosures, but it seems to be the case even on the smaller batches. I've had a few boxes that I simply couldn't use for production; they just have to be pitched aside. When I find time, I will take photos and send them over and we'll see what they say. As I said earlier in the thread, Connie has always made things right when I've had issues in the past. The overall rate of unusable (for production) boxes is under 5%, but that does add up.
But here's the deal; Whenever I've actually purchased a Hammond box from Mouser that was prefinished, the powder coating has always been perfect. Just a whole different league. It would stand to reason that Hammond would have a much larger powder coating operating and would be able to hold tighter tolerances but my hope is that, as PPP grows, they would aspire to tighter quality control and it seems to be going the other way. They are really nice people and I like supporting the smaller business, so I hope they get it together. If not, I (really we) are going to end up finding a local supplier that are setup for more consistency. As a hobbyist buying one or two boxes, that isn't practical, but once you start running a few hundred (or more) boxes of the same color per batch, it gets more practical. I hope it doesn't come to that.
I'm halfway tempted to send a link to Connie to this thread so she can see what the general opinions (good and bad) are of their service. Sometimes, businesses only get feedback like this in the form of a frustrated customer, so it can be difficult to really get a feel for the overall perception of their service. Perhaps it would help if they understood that they could possibly be even more successful if they tightened a few things up a little bit.
Damn, I usually drill better than that, and I eyeball my drill marks most of the time.
I'm very concerned that PPP doesn't see that those drill hits are waaaay out of whack, even by hobbyist standards. If that's not glaringly obviously misaligned, that's a huge red flag. And if all of their pre-drilled boxes are of similar "quality", I wouldn't risk buying any of them.
Quote from: pickdropper on December 09, 2014, 08:55:00 PM
I'm halfway tempted to send a link to Connie to this thread so she can see what the general opinions (good and bad) are of their service. Sometimes, businesses only get feedback like this in the form of a frustrated customer, so it can be difficult to really get a feel for the overall perception of their service. Perhaps it would help if they understood that they could possibly be even more successful if they tightened a few things up a little bit.
I actually already did that a few emails back, to hopefully show that my views weren't wildly out of line with the rest of the community. She didn't acknowledge it in any of her replies.
My experience has been that there is a fine art to complaining constructively. I'm not faulting you, but also not sure what tone you sent. Sometimes you still lose. I'll probably never buy another VW just as an example because they don't seem that interested in honoring emissions warranties. Long story.
There is also a fine art to constructive complaint resolution. If you have ordered twice and complained twice, they probably review your account and then decide if your business is worth the trouble. IMHO if they decide it's not really worth it that can backfire because people talk. On the other hand, I doubt their profit margins are very high and there's only so many times you can operate at a loss, which might explain the response you got. (But in that case, make sure you're not sending out blems as top grade stuff. )
Clearly at least 2 of the three holes are off center in at least one axis. Not sure if you explained that in those terms? (If she can't see that, then that may be part of the issue since she's probably QC.) Oversize holes may still make it usable, but that's not exactly what you paid for, and not a great response. Personally I would expect at least a refund on drilling charges if there were any, or a discount on the next order.
Fwiw, I've ordered their stuff about 4 times in the last two years. The first time was pretty decent stuff, though not completely awesome. The next two times were ok. The fourth time was blems. Seemed like a good deal at the time but actually only 1/2 are something I can use.
Really glad I can powder coat my own boxes these days.
Good luck.
I would expect better than that and would expect them to replace it in the circumstances. I don't expect them to be within a fraction of a millimeter, but if it's visibly off to the naked eye on a simple drilling job like that it's not good enough IMO.
Disappointing, because I was planning to order a batch of enclosures from them, and haven't had good luck with Mammoth's paint jobs (the $5 blem 1590BBs from small bear had more consistent and resistant paint than the Mammoths I've ordered at full price! Wish small bear offered more sizes and colors...they've been great on my orders so far).
Well for the sake of completeness, here's how it ended up:
After I got the email saying 'we could send you another, but it will be just like the one you have', I replied saying I was done with all the back and forth arguing and that I was no longer interested in a replacement from them. The next email I got was a tracking email for a package from them. Connie then emailed me saying a new one was on its way and that I should just keep the old one.
The new one is much better. The foot switch hole is ever so slightly offset to the right in this one, but to be honest, if I wasn't intentionally checking after the last one, I probably wouldn't ever have noticed. It's good to know that they don't in fact have a massive stack of pre-drilled enclosures that look just like that first one!
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/16/bc5a7746009e0c2e871b1848f362012e.jpg)
So all in all I ended up with a serviceable one, and PPP did the right thing, but it felt like a chore to get there.
Thanks for all the insight and advice everyone :)
That's good news. Looking forward to a build report featuring this case!
Did you send them the photo? It's obviously not good enough. I can't see how checking examples from stock is relevant, it proves nothing. This is not a good advert for them.
Quote from: Hogharry on December 21, 2014, 03:25:33 AM
Did you send them the photo?
He did, according to previous posts.
If they think the first enclosure and second enclosure look exactly the same, somebody at PPP needs glasses.
Quote from: culturejam on December 21, 2014, 03:36:05 PM
Quote from: Hogharry on December 21, 2014, 03:25:33 AM
Did you send them the photo?
He did, according to previous posts.
If they think the first enclosure and second enclosure look exactly the same, somebody at PPP needs glasses.
No comparison
Perhaps the photos don't show it properly, but the second one is much better. The stomp hole is offset slightly to the right on the second one, but the other two holes are in the middle.
I haven't been building pedals for long, maybe only built 5 or 6, but I don't recall ever seeing drilled enclosures being out of whack like that first one. I was second guessing myself on the second one, because obviously it's not perfect, but then I'm thinking it's probably close enough that had I not had the problems with the first one, I wouldn't have been checking/noticing it on the second one.