I've been working on a modded Current Lover with an MN3009 and have been attempting to get TZF. It's actually way easier than I thought possible.
I happened to have a BF-2 that I had modded previously with an MN3209 for shorter delays. So I decided, what would happen if I just connected the SND/RTN loop on the Current Lover to the input/output of the BF-2? At first, I could hear hints of through zero flanging, but it was faint, in the background. Then I remembered the BF-2 also has a clean signal running to the output, which you can disable by lifting R28 (47k).
Now I fired it up and :o! Through-zero flanging.
The best part is, the sound doesn't "cancel out" like I've heard on other TZF pedals when it crosses the "zero" threshold. No doubt that cancellation is because of the inverted delay signal that is recommended for TZF. That recommendation doesn't make sense to me, because in original tape flanging, none of the signals were inverted on the two reels, they were exact copies and simply crossed over each other. Anyway... ??? This method works great, there is no heterodyning, you don't have to spend time making up a daughter board circuit or dealing with all the delay calculations.
So the long and short of it is, just run your SND/RTN connections from the Current Lover pcb to some 1/4" output jacks, and plug in another flanger pedal that's been modded to have the clean signal lifted and can do "manual mode". (basically that turns it into an extremely short delay pedal)
Awesome news
Clips?
Between this and your new fuzz circuit....you are on FIRE!!!
Personally I like the drop out at the cross over so I'm wondering what this sounds like.. To me the cancellation effect IS the tzf sound....
Also really interested in hearing this. Sounds like a great mod.
Cody
K, here's a quick demo. One interesting side effect of using the BF-2 for the short delay is that the LFO is still active, so it creates slight variations in the delay time. That means the through zero point is constantly variable, so the sound is pretty dynamic, more like when engineers would manually press on the tape reel. Sometimes I get a pretty pronounced wash; sometimes it's more subtle.
[soundcloud]https://soundcloud.com/larsjm/through-zero-flanging[/soundcloud]
That DOES sound good. I'm digging it for sure.
Cody
hi
sounds interesting but its not in the same ball park as the Paradox...
is it possible to make a demo where you turn on an off the FX loop please? so i can hear what the BF is adding (or is that subtracting?!) ?
still, good looking out though ;)
So the issue being the LFO, does anyone with two current lovers fancy trying this with the filter matrix mode engaged to kill the LFO?
/digs around to see if I have another current lover board....
Quote from: TGP39 on January 09, 2015, 12:18:41 AM
Between this and your new fuzz circuit....you are on FIRE!!!
My thoughts exactly!
Lars man you're killing it! This sounds amazing.
ok I managed to replicate this using my current lover and Dr scientist cosmichorus.
dare I say it I managed to get a thicker TZF with full cancellation ;)
video shortly
tried adapting the Lovetone flanger daughter board.
This has disappointing results... :/
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x374/LaceSensor1/delayboard_zpsc7fbd45a.jpg)
Could somebody explain to me in dummy terms how this works with two units? I understand flanging; comb filtering caused by two identical signals moving in and out of phase. But how does that translate to the two pedals used and why the setting on each?
Thanks
P.S. since zero point is the 100% out of phase moment,
how could that be possible with two tape decks that were NOT wired out of phase?
Quote from: LaceSensor on January 09, 2015, 05:53:35 PM
tried adapting the Lovetone flanger daughter board.
This has disappointing results... :/
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x374/LaceSensor1/delayboard_zpsc7fbd45a.jpg)
Try adding an inverting buffer at the output so you get the subtractive flanging you and most prefer, also, the fixed delay needs to be shorter than the wet signal at at least one point in the sweep (we aim for it to be at the peak usually so the shorter the better really, also not forgetting that it is now your dry signal so you don't want to hear too much delay) so add a clock buffer and drop the clock cap value.
Quote from: blearyeyes on January 09, 2015, 06:14:31 PM
Could somebody explain to me in dummy terms how this works with two units? I understand flanging; comb filtering caused by two identical signals moving in and out of phase. But how does that translate to the two pedals used and why the setting on each?
Thanks
P.S. since zero point is the 100% out of phase moment,
how could that be possible with two tape decks that were NOT wired out of phase?
Read this, should explain what you need http://www.mrblackpedals.com/blogs/straight-jive/6622058-positive-negative-and-through-zero-flanging-probably-more-than-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-flanging
One comment i'd make is to not compare tape and BBD through zero flanging, apples and oranges.
Scruff thanks, any chance you can scribble in ms paint or something the extra parts?
Quote from: LaceSensor on January 09, 2015, 04:38:14 PM
That sounds awesome! Just out of curiosity, does that chorus allow you to completely kill the dry signal? That was the one problem with the Bf2, it doesnt work for TZF in stock form. Im so glad Brian included those send/return pads, there are so many things you can do with them. I was thinking, what if you put your fuzz in the loop, so that it only distorts the short delay? Maybe stack a phaser in there as well. :) Im definitely going to mod my current lover to have the loop usable through 1/4 jacks and let the experimenting begin!
I'll just describe it, too tired to mess about with drawing and uploading photos :)
Okay, current lover, on the schematic the 4049 is the clock buffer, wire in the exact same bit of circuit between the 3207 pins 2 & 6 and corresponding 3102 pins on your lovetone schematic. Drop the 100pF cap in value... try 22pF? I can't be bothered to do the calculations right now.
Then, from the output cap run a 100k series resistor in to the inverting (-) pin of an opamp, connect the inverting pin and output of it with another 100k and the non-inverting (+) should go to V.Ref (as that doesn't have one you'll have to make one, I wouldn't share it with the current lover board). Then the output goes in to the return (there's already a 220nF cap there so it doesn't need its own output cap).
Hope that makes sense.
Ok, more interesting stuff. I tried putting my polyphase in the send/return loop along with the bf2. As long as you keep the feedback at 0 and a slow sweep, you get that stronger through zero effect like in lacesensor's clip. The cool part is, you turn off your phaser, and your back to classic additive flanging. So you dont have to settle on one or the other, you can have both!
It's quite possible to add a toggle between inverting & non-inverting, so additive/subtractive could be done with a foot switch if desired.
And Lars, the Polyphase is inverting so that would explain a lot of it, although... phase stages can add something to flanging for which the name and effect of escapes me at the moment... theta something. Something to do with spreading out the notches I think but too tired to think, I don't think it's effect is dramatic enough to bother with the added circuitry if you were building a pedal though unless as you did just put it in a loop with a separate pedal... it may also be that it's more effective in the feedback path, i'd have to look in to it.
Quote from: Scruffie on January 09, 2015, 09:13:29 PM
It's quite possible to add a toggle between inverting & non-inverting, so additive/subtractive could be done with a foot switch if desired.
And Lars, the Polyphase is inverting so that would explain a lot of it, although... phase stages can add something to flanging for which the name and effect of escapes me at the moment... theta something. Something to do with spreading out the notches I think but too tired to think, I don't think it's effect is dramatic enough to bother with the added circuitry if you were building a pedal though unless as you did just put it in a loop with a separate pedal... it may also be that it's more effective in the feedback path, i'd have to look in to it.
Yeah, that's the beauty of the Current Lover circuit, you don't have to add circuitry, just use pedals that already exist (and most of us probably already have), to expand it's feature set, like lacesensor did. People usually go through design calculation headaches for the sound he was able to make from just the Current Lover and a Dr Scientist Cosmichorus pedal. (how many of us want one of those after watching the demo?)
The key is to make sure you don't let any dry signal through the SND/RTN loop, it has to start off slightly delayed. Then you can just stack all different combos of phasers, chorus, flangers, univibe ??? and probably come up with some really unique sounds. Maybe then run the whole sound through a delay going to a Leslie cab. Modulation Madness!!!
ill take a look into your ideas scruff, ill have to vero something up. thanks!
lars, the DR scientist allows fully wet blend, yes.
It sounds really excellent in the loop. I would like to make something that doesnt require a whole 'nother pedal though
You can do it on any flanger, you don't really need the send/return pads, just remove the dry mix resistor and add it on to your daughter circuit and you have your send/return pads. I experimented a lot with TZF and the current lover isn't even the greatest base for it IMO, I did build a TZF A/DA but it was on a moosapotamus board and I didn't want to go bigger than a 1590D to box it all and that sounded fantastic, much more obvious sound even in additive and separate control over the flanger and dry line being inverting or not added some interesting possibilities.
I would actually suggest the collosalus, should be a great platform for TZF as it has a sort of... gritty sound (thanks in part to its soft clipping) that should lend well to bringing the sound out and also its frequency range. Something to be said for using companding too...
Oh and back to the comparison between tape flanging and me saying apples and oranges, just to say as something to think about, there was no feedback added there either.
So... should I convince Keefe for Lectric FX to do an all in one TZF? ???
Quote from: LaceSensor on January 09, 2015, 10:47:05 PM
ill take a look into your ideas scruff, ill have to vero something up. thanks!
No worries, if you need it clarifying when i'm a bit less out of it i'll try and draw something up for you.
Might be useful to change the delay trim in to a pot so you can set exactly where the through zero point happens too.
please do make a TZF project, that would be great.
Out of interest, where would one insert a send and return into the collosalus? I have a PCB for that... ;)
IAn
R5, you will need an input/output cap and don't forget to add R5 back in to your daughter board.
I'll see what I can do...
lol
i was looking in totally the wrong place.
I think its over my head, and past my bedtime :/
cheers!
IAn
QuoteSo... should I convince Keefe for Lectric FX to do an all in one TZF? ???
YES PLEASE!
If you could kick in the TZF with a foot switch that would killer.
I have a Flintlock board and a Colosulus finished. If there's a MOD for the Colosalus I'm all over that.
Quote from: blearyeyes on January 09, 2015, 11:47:00 PM
QuoteSo... should I convince Keefe for Lectric FX to do an all in one TZF? ???
YES PLEASE!
If you could kick in the TZF with a foot switch that would killer.
I have a Flintlock board and a Colosulus finished. If there's a MOD for the Colosalus I'm all over that.
We have a LOT of stuff to do first (not least the Polychorus coming out soon) but after and once i've cleared my schedule of other design work... by the end of 2015? I'm thinking mini-TZF A/DA... the circuit will be in good hands ;)
I have no schematics or layouts drawn out sadly, all done in head, but seems like you guys might have mods in hand, I can just lend advice as I have time.
Lars,
I really hope that monkey doesn't pull the trigger.