http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I have some opinions anyway. ;D
Britain has seemingly only somewhat embraced EU membership, so it seems to me like exiting would be a natural course of action. Surely there will be some economic downsides in certain sectors, but also probably some bumps in others.
So to our UK brothers, what's your view on this? And other EU state members, what say you on this topic?
Can't I have one place to avoid this kinda thing! :'(
Quote from: Scruffie on June 03, 2016, 01:24:15 PM
Can't I have one place to avoid this kinda thing! :'(
Sorry!
I just haven't run across anyone to discuss this with. I've brought this up a few times here, and the response is usually, "What the fuck is brexit?" ;D
It's an unrelenting topic here and my girlfriend of 4 years is German so it's an unpleasant subject for me...
I'd vote to stay regardless for what it's worth.
The European project doesnt work, its on the verge of collapse anyway. Lets go our own way like all the other countries.
Quote from: Scruffie on June 03, 2016, 01:35:12 PM
my girlfriend of 4 years is German so it's an unpleasant subject for me...
Germans do seem big on "unification". ;D
Diamond Dave and Boris are making it a sh*t throwing contest, pulling 'facts' and 'figures' straight out of their arses.
There is a lot of scaremongering from the remain side of the camp. They have also spent 10 million pounds of tax payers money to have 'stay' leaflets printed out. I would hardly call that a fair and unbiased use of public funds.
Therefore, because of all the above people are beginning to get a bit sick of it all.
Personally though, I think leaving is definitely a gamble, but it is one that might be worth taking.
As far as I can see we put more in than we get out.
IMO the EU is also in trouble financially, and I would imagine some of the more affluent EU countries that are fully tied in would leave in a heartbeat if given half a chance.
When you look at who is wanting to join in the near future, and why they would want to join, there seems to be more of a 'what can you do for us', rather than 'what we can do for you' theme.
I don't see Switzerland or Norway clambering to get their EU membership sorted anytime soon, put it that way...
Quote from: raulduke on June 03, 2016, 01:50:14 PM
IMO the EU is also in trouble financially, and I would imagine some of the more affluent EU countries that are fully tied in would leave in a heartbeat if given half a chance.
When you look at who is wanting to join in the near future, and why they would want to join, there seems to be more of a 'what can you do for us', rather than 'what we can do for you' theme.
My concern is that if the "good" countries start pulling out, the Union will go tits-up. And then there will be a lot of financial crises in the "less good" states. And I don't much like the historical precedent that has followed from widespread Euro financial crashes.
Quote from: raulduke on June 03, 2016, 01:50:14 PM
There is a lot of scaremongering from the remain side of the camp.
From the current government yes and we all know how that went with the London elections but the entire leave camp seems to be based on fear from the outset... immigrants, 'loss of control', the boogeyman of the EU's future.
We do put in a lot of money but we get a lot of benefits economically that offset that and not to mention the health, environmental (air pollution, drinking and sea water quality, fossil fuel dependence) work (paid leave etc), travel, freedom (human rights) etc benefits. I certainly don't want the conservatives or any future government having any more control of that, or more to the point ability to get rid of that, than they already do.
It is also a far more democratic and transparent system than our own government, but that information tends to be withheld by our own media, look at the Eur-Lex.europa.eu and ec.Europa.eu websites.
There is no chance of Turkey joining any time soon if that's a fear, there's a set list of criteria that must be met and so far they simply don't so even if they did eventually join, it would no longer be the country it is today, not to mention we'd have the veto of that happening anyway.
We're not using the Euro its self too so we wouldn't face the same problem of its collapse as those using it, any more than leaving would cause anyway.
I don't understand the idea that we're somehow a special country, we're not, just stubborn.
Finally while I wouldn't for a second trust Dave, i'd look at all those supporting the remain side, scientists, economists, actors, writers, historians, comedians whatever and then look at the people who support leave and what there reasons are because I don't believe for a second any of them support leaving based on the public's best interests. Boris especially is a well paid writer of The Telegraph who has long derided the EU, along with the Murdoch empire, all of whom stand to gain and have more influence from the UK leaving the EU.
for every £2 we put into the EU we get £1 back..that is fact
Yes, in cash, but as I just pointed out there is countless benefits to society and economy which offsets that greatly.
That money also wont go back in to our services, it'll go to the 'cause' of austerity.
Quote from: Scruffie on June 03, 2016, 02:22:56 PM
Yes, in cash, but as I just pointed out there is countless benefits to society and economy which offsets that greatly.
That money also wont go back in to our services, it'll go to the 'cause' of austerity.
Every $1 I put into my local school system gets me exactly $0 back in cash. ;)
Quote from: culturejam on June 03, 2016, 02:24:03 PM
Quote from: Scruffie on June 03, 2016, 02:22:56 PM
Yes, in cash, but as I just pointed out there is countless benefits to society and economy which offsets that greatly.
That money also wont go back in to our services, it'll go to the 'cause' of austerity.
Every $1 I put into my local school system gets me exactly $0 back in cash. ;)
Yes and that's why your child wont be a moron :P
Quote from: Scruffie on June 03, 2016, 02:25:08 PM
Yes and that's why your child wont be a moron :P
I'm assuming you noted my sarcasm.
We never voted for the people in Brussels that make our laws, they are unelected folks. They tell us what to do, they tell us how many people can come to live here putting stress on public services which are struggling to cope as it is.
Don't worry I don't trust any of them (politicians that is) ;)
I don't think we are special as a country. I do think that at least we are fortunate enough to have been given the opportunity to decide on this for ourselves.
Turkey specifically joining doesn't worry me. What worries me is economically unstable countries joining, and then expecting a bail out when it all goes south (look at what happened in Greece).
I'm still undecided, but I do feel like we are putting more in than we are getting out at this moment in time.
As I said look at Switzerland and Norway. Both have very good economies, but neither seems particularly keen on getting their EU membership sorted. They seem to be doing fine without.
I'm still not 100% decided. I just wish that the media and politicians on both sides would let this be a fair discussion, without resorting to name calling and hyperbole, but it was never going to end that way I suppose.
i know were not special. Turkey is a concern as it would mean better access into Europe for people smugglers from the middle east, Africa and beyond. Turkey is nowhere near ready for EU integration anyway.
Speaking economically now, the worst performing area in the world right now is the EU, its a sinking ship.
You're just spouting out the standard leave lines, we do vote for who represents us in the EU at a local level and we also elect governments who will represent our interests and we have a say in everything that goes on in Europe, they are not un-elected in any sense of the word (look at those links I mentioned earlier).
Our public services (by which I assume you are focusing on health) are struggling due to severe under funding and an increasingly old and obese population. Immigration feeds our economy greatly and results in a net gain per person, they tend to put in more than taxes than a lot of UK born residents and not to mention all the UK nationals who live abroad and do the same thing to other countries in the EU, leaving will not suddenly halt immigration anyway.
immigration is good, we just need to manage the numbers and take in more specified skill sets to which we need.
Yes we elect representatives but ultimately they dont get the final say.
We do manage it, we have one of the lowest levels of immigration in Europe, plus if you bomb the crap out of several countries, you reap what you sow.
I would count a veto as a final say, if it's not unanimous, it doesn't pass.
Quote from: Scruffie on June 03, 2016, 02:43:46 PM
I would count a veto as a final say, if it's not unanimous, it doesn't pass.
I would think unanimity in a national referendum would be outlandishly unlikely. Usually referenda are simple majority votes.
Quote from: raulduke on June 03, 2016, 02:30:28 PM
As I said look at Switzerland and Norway. Both have very good economies, but neither seems particularly keen on getting their EU membership sorted. They seem to be doing fine without.
I'm still not 100% decided. I just wish that the media and politicians on both sides would let this be a fair discussion, without resorting to name calling and hyperbole, but it was never going to end that way I suppose.
Switzerland and Norway may sit on the outskirts but they are still bound by the majority of EU laws and regulations or else they wouldn't be able to trade within it, they still pay in to it but they truly do have no say in its running.
I certainly agree the circus around it is making it increasingly difficult to decide, it requires a lot of independent research most people are not going to do to pull the fact from fiction, which is a problem when an extremely important question is put to the public, frankly I don't think the country was ready for the referendum, it's a time of heated emotions and uncertainty, not the best situation to be making any decisions in life.
We all have our opinion. It's a tough call but come 23rd June we can choose to vote.
All the best.
Quote from: culturejam on June 03, 2016, 02:45:48 PM
Quote from: Scruffie on June 03, 2016, 02:43:46 PM
I would count a veto as a final say, if it's not unanimous, it doesn't pass.
I would think unanimity in a national referendum would be outlandishly unlikely. Usually referenda are simple majority votes.
Yep I'm sure it will be very close.
The difficulty is that there isn't a clear choice (for me anyway).
It's bit like last years election, which resembled that South Park episode where they have to choose between a douche and a turd... no easy decision to be made ;D
I suppose at least we are lucky enough in the UK that these are the kind of decisions that we have to labor and fret over. Rather than when we are getting our next meal etc.
Quote from: raulduke on June 03, 2016, 03:25:21 PM
It's bit like last years election, which resembled that South Park episode where they have to choose between a douche and a turd... no easy decision to be made ;D
Got one of those coming up in November here. Not looking forward to it.
Quote from: culturejam on June 03, 2016, 03:39:46 PM
Got one of those coming up in November here. Not looking forward to it.
Good Lord, please don't start that conversation.
It might be good to leave the EU at some point, but consider the consequences if we do it now— we'd most likely be handing the country from one pair of wankers (osborne and cameron) to an even bigger pair of wankers (boris and gove)...
Sorry to resort to name calling, don't set Dr Gonzo on me! ;]
The idea of leaving the Tories with more power scares the crap outta me.
Its amazing to listen to the Leave campaigners suggest the money currently going to Europe will pay for X many hospitals and X many nurses. We'll still have Conservatives in power and theyll still see the NHS as something to dismantle and sell.
I'm likey to vote stay and its primarily due to pedals and other musical equipment.
All of my parts come from either Mouser (with the fees prepaid) or Banzai/Musikding, due to EU membership i don't have to pay any additional tax or fees, same goes for thomann. If we leave i'm going to incur additional costs and delays whilst parcelforce or whoever demands i pay the fees.
I've also read some interesting "facts" about Norway and the EEA, supposedly Norway must (a) accept free migration of EU citizens, (b) contribute to the EU budget, and (c) comply with all EU rules but with no say in making those rules in order to have access to the single market.
Unfortunately the people leading the leave/stay campaigns aren't the best representatives but my gut feeling is if the PM & treasury are insisting we stay, then its going to be in the countries best interest to stay, they are the people with all the facts.
Quite frankly the whole thing has devolved into a name calling/scare-mongering fest. No real facts available from each side, each claiming being in/out will be the end of us.
As a voter this is about the biggest cop-out in politics. The people who run this country are supposed to make an informed decision on this stuff. But because if they get it wrong they'll be hung out to dry, they've done something really smart; let's have a referendum and let the people decide!
It's a win-win for the government. If it all goes to shit, they can say, 'well that's what you voted for'. If it all goes well it happened during their term so they can take credit for not only it working, but for them giving us the power to make that decision too.
The problem is that we're not being informed with any facts or proposals as to how exiting the EU would effect anything. All are spouting degrees of bullshit that make it impossible to separate informed opinion from scare mongering. This leaves people to vote on their instincts. The first being that if the Tories mostly want it, then what's in it for them (as that's how they operate) and would that be bad for us? That's not as ill informed as it might sound as there are certain safeguards that are put in place by the EU to stop the UK government from going full on big brother and just becoming corporate bitches. Again that might be scare mongering.
That said, there are countries in Europe who function very nicely without being in the EU. They have trade agreements in place, but like us have their own currencies and border controls (though we're much more effective at that as we're an island). Leaving the EU would allow us much more control over our own destiny, but may effect us economically as we have to re-negotiate trade deals.
Another thing being preyed on is nationalistic xenophobia. IMMIGRANTS! TERRORISTS! I sadly feel a great many people will base their votes entirely on this issue and vote out thinking it's going to solve all our problems. Not really realising that 'they' did not took ooor jeerbs. Really, I've not seen this influx of this happening. If anything our jeeerbs are being 'off-shored/globalised' to India and Poland. Industry is not employing cheap labour here, because it's cheaper elsewhere.
Then there's history... People forget history all too quickly. Forget the Middle East. Historically speaking Europe has been battling between it's member states for pretty much ever. It only stopped last time 60 odd years ago. The EU has remained a mostly peaceful joining of nations since and we want to start segregating again and becoming insular? Is this really the way forward?
Personally I was originally in the out camp, mainly because I liked the idea of autonomy, along with trade deals. Plus being an island, our borders are already much more policeable than pretty much all of the rest of Europe. But the more I think about it, the more I actually think that despite a lot of the negative shit the EU brings, it's outweighed by the positives. I like being able to move freely and easily around Europe. I consider us to be part of Europe and am not sure I want to not be as I really quite like it. I like the EU putting checks and balances on our government because quite simply I do not trust them and I think removing the people who watch the watchmen is an incredibly bad idea.
As I say, that's about as informed as I can be given the misinformation out there.
Quote from: raulduke on June 03, 2016, 03:25:21 PM
It's bit like last years election, which resembled that South Park episode where they have to choose between a douche and a turd... no easy decision to be made ;D
I found it painful. Idealistically I lean towards labour, but I can't stand certain things about that practically. Realistically I go conservative, but my hippy side cannot stand their selfish self-serving nature. Then you have the leaders (at the time). Cameron is possibly the slimiest man alive. The personification of entitlement. Milliband cheated and stabbed his own brother in the back to run for party leader for his own gain at the expense of labour having any chance of winning the election.
In a way the coalition worked. Because the liberals stopped the tories from doing what they've done since they've grabbed full power. They seem hell bent on breaking the NHS so they can sell it to their buddies cheap. Fuck me I remember the last time they were in when I worked in the NHS and they tried the same thing. This alone stops me voting for them.
Basically politicians, all of them, are self-serving arseholes. I can't bring myself to vote for any of them when all the choices are shit.
That said, if we had Trump over here I'd make sure that psycho didn't get anywhere near office. WTF is going on over there?!
Methinks this referendum again proves, like the recent referendum in the Netherlands, that referendums are the shittiest idea ever. The idea is that people can vote on a subject. Only that subject is incredibly complex. Which is why we have elected representatives in the first place, because most people are not that well informed, knowledgeable or capable to understand the issue. It also assumes that people make rational choices. They don't. We're not rational beings. We're moist robots. We make emotional decisions and only then rationalize why we made that choice after the fact. It's all made worse because morons can now find each other online and create little online echo chambers where they can reinforce their moronic viewpoints and make them even worse. You start a referendum, it will bring out the crazies, the morons, the conspiracy nutters.
As for this referendum, to me it seems purely driven by Tory politics, as the Tory party has been hopelessly split on the EU since like forever. And none of the Tory leaders so far has had the balls, the skills or the vision to settle it once and for all. Which leads me to think the British people, and by default the rest of the EU, are now having to pay for Cameron not showing any leadership on Europe in his own party. And it doesn't help that Boris Johnson is willing to screw over the UK's long term future for a chance to knife Cameron in the back to become PM. It reminds me of the politicians in the fomer Yugoslavia and USSR who were willing to break up whole countries just to further their own personal political ambitions.
Quote from: juansolo on June 03, 2016, 10:11:56 PM
The problem is that we're not being informed with any facts or proposals as to how exiting the EU would effect anything.
I'm not sure that anyone actually knows how a UK exit will actually effect domestic economics and social issues. There are theories, but you never really know until you do it. And then, of course, it's too late. ;)
Agree totally with both the above points.
The safest thing we can do, as was with the Scots and independence, is vote to stay. All we will have achieved is a massive upheaval and expense to do absolutely nothing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFt-pRIvL9E
Quote from: darrenw6000 on June 06, 2016, 11:52:20 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFt-pRIvL9E
Did this bloke just call Obama the worst President in history?....er...has he not heard
of Richard Nixon or Bush junior?
Quote from: mah62 on June 07, 2016, 03:04:40 AM
Quote from: darrenw6000 on June 06, 2016, 11:52:20 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFt-pRIvL9E
Did this bloke just call Obama the worst President in history?....er...has he not heard
of Richard Nixon or Bush junior?
When there is a government in power that is the opposite of your political persuasion there is a tendency to engage in hyperbole. They quickly become 'the worst government in history evah!!!'. And Richard Nixon wasn't that bad. Historians don't view him that negatively. He just got caught doing something really stupid and tried to cover it up. As for Bush Jr., time will tell, but I find it telling that during one of the South Carolina debates when Trump denounced Bush Jr. and called the Iraq invasion a mistake he got booed.
Whelp, this just got really ugly:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/british-member-of-parliament-reported-to-have-been-shot/2016/06/16/a9b988de-33c4-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html
Wow, I didn't realize that was tired to the referendum. That's terrible.
Saw a video that provoked an interesting question -- as far as the EU goes, who elects the overarching, federal level policymakers in the EU, and the EU High Lord?
It seems to me that if you're going to stay in the EU, you NEED to know the answer to this, and to be okay with it.
Quote from: culturejam on June 16, 2016, 06:51:21 PM
Whelp, this just got really ugly:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/british-member-of-parliament-reported-to-have-been-shot/2016/06/16/a9b988de-33c4-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html
Yeah things have taken a really dark turn :( Not far from me either. Sadly she was one of the few good politicians that actually seemed to be in it for all the right reasons. My thoughts to her family.
There are too many psychotic arseholes in this world. This is not how civilised people are supposed to behave.
Quote from: alanp on June 16, 2016, 08:12:53 PM
Saw a video that provoked an interesting question -- as far as the EU goes, who elects the overarching, federal level policymakers in the EU, and the EU High Lord?
It seems to me that if you're going to stay in the EU, you NEED to know the answer to this, and to be okay with it.
The governments of the EU member countries?
Everybody keeps on acting as if Brussel actually sets any policy independently, it doesn't. That's just a myth perpetrated by both EU skeptics and governments who don't want to admit that they actually agreed to this policy or showed poor negotiating skills. Brussels is a convenient scapegoat to both of them. The EU bureaucracy just does what the EU governments wants them to do. If Brussels could actually do anything independently of the EU governments don't you think both the Greek debt and migrant crisis wouldn't have gotten as out of control as they did? In either case nothing could be done because the EU members couldn't agree on a common course of action. With the Brussels bureaucrats and commissioners just looking on in the sidelines twiddling their thumbs in impotence.
Quote from: juansolo on June 17, 2016, 08:05:24 AM
Quote from: culturejam on June 16, 2016, 06:51:21 PM
Whelp, this just got really ugly:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/british-member-of-parliament-reported-to-have-been-shot/2016/06/16/a9b988de-33c4-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html
Yeah things have taken a really dark turn :( Not far from me either. Sadly she was one of the few good politicians that actually seemed to be in it for all the right reasons. My thoughts to her family.
There are too many psychotic arseholes in this world. This is not how civilised people are supposed to behave.
I really do blame the internet. It really does make it easier for likeminded idiots to find each other and reinforce themselves in their idiocies. Any moron is just a few clicks away from finding things that reinforces their delusions.
It seems the science community feels that leaving the EU would be bad.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/10/brexit-disaster-for-uk-science-say-scientists-stephen-hawking
If Stephen Hawking says so its got to be true. Smartest guy in the universe. Also one should not piss off the Hawkman. Because all his shootings be drivebys.
Thunderf00t is also against Brexit.
As far as Hawking goes -- I have massive, unending respect for the man. His tenacity is unparalleled, and to be admired. He is a genius in physics. (I say this as a Christian.)
I would be highly surprised if he was studied in the art of statesmanship. I like to be surprised, though :)
Quote from: Muadzin on June 17, 2016, 06:49:38 PM
Everybody keeps on acting as if Brussel actually sets any policy independently, it doesn't. That's just a myth perpetrated by both EU skeptics and governments who don't want to admit that they actually agreed to this policy or showed poor negotiating skills. Brussels is a convenient scapegoat to both of them. The EU bureaucracy just does what the EU governments wants them to do. If Brussels could actually do anything independently of the EU governments don't you think both the Greek debt and migrant crisis wouldn't have gotten as out of control as they did? In either case nothing could be done because the EU members couldn't agree on a common course of action. With the Brussels bureaucrats and commissioners just looking on in the sidelines twiddling their thumbs in impotence.
I really do blame the internet. It really does make it easier for likeminded idiots to find each other and reinforce themselves in their idiocies. Any moron is just a few clicks away from finding things that reinforces their delusions.
What this man said ;)
I watched a talk from a Professor yesterday, he has nothing to gain and knows the field.
https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLiverpool/videos/1293361974024537/ (https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLiverpool/videos/1293361974024537/)