I recently ordered a pot from Small Bear as Tayda didn't have the particular value I was interested in (1M Log). I thought they had identical parts numbers, but I realize now there is a tiny difference:
Tayda- RV16AF-41-15R-Value
Small Bear- RV16AF-41-15R1-Value
I didn't notice until it was in hand. The Small Bear pot has takes much less torque to turn, and has a smooth shaft top. The Tayda pots take more force to move, have a small indentation on the shaft tip, and are a slightly duller grey.
I just can't figure out what the additional 1 means. RV = Rotary pot. 16=size AF=without tap 41=10.7mm thick 15=shaft height R=300 degree rotation
But what does the 1 mean?!?!? I mean, the pot works perfectly well (honestly, better than the tayda as Its easier to turn) but it annoys me when I can't decode something like this. Anyone have any ideas?
I'm not sure what it means but the shaft diameter on the tayda pots is also slightly less than the standard Alphas most suppliers carry. In my experience Knobs turn slightly off center and wobble due to the smaller diameter of the Tayda Alphas. Because of this and the fact that they feel different I won't use them (I'm admittedly overly picky). If I had to guess, the difference in part number has to do with the fact that Tayda is selling a budget version made with slightly different materials, specs, etc.
So I decided to take a look inside to see if there were any differences and there were. Check it out (small bear on left/tayda on right in all pics):
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160811/b10276937aab0664462e843a327a7e99.jpg)
(the pins on the Small Bear alpha were cut off in order to remove the pot easily from a PCB)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160811/edfb6b7fdfda70ec77db5f71f80f907b.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160811/6a205f38d68af07ac41230fa6e9d25b3.jpg)
(noticeably smaller diameter shaft of the Tayda version)
As you can see, construction, materials and specs are inconsistent, which explains how Tayda is able to sell theirs for less than half of the other guys.
Fascinating! I'm still getting back into pedal making after a ~10 year gap so I'm sticking with the cheap for now (grad student budget, woo), but I'm glad to know that better parts exist. I doubt i'll swap the pots in the pedals I already have made, but for future reference maybe I'll try to budget the extra 75 cents a pot to get the "good stuff".
Quote from: somnif on August 11, 2016, 05:01:58 AM
Fascinating! I'm still getting back into pedal making after a ~10 year gap so I'm sticking with the cheap for now (grad student budget, woo), but I'm glad to know that better parts exist. I doubt I'll swap the pots in the pedals I already have made, but for future reference maybe I'll try to budget the extra 75 cents a pot to get the "good stuff".
Honestly, the Tayda alphas are probably just fine and I've never heard of people having issues with them so it's probably not worthy the extra cash unless you are super picky or building commercially. My biggest issue using Tayda Alphas for personal builds is that they never seem to have all the values I need and I don't particular like mixing them with the other alphas due to the difference it torque and smaller shaft diameter. Hopefully I didn't come off like a cork sniffer. :D
The only problem I have with them is the torque needed to turn them means the knobs I bought for my last pedal are a bit slippy, which annoys me. I could get a dremmel and cut a notch/divet into the shaft I suppose, but I'm quite lazy.
Quote from: somnif on August 11, 2016, 07:16:52 AM
The only problem I have with them is the torque needed to turn them means the knobs I bought for my last pedal are a bit slippy, which annoys me. I could get a dremmel and cut a notch/divet into the shaft I suppose, but I'm quite lazy.
Yep. I've found the same thing. It's hard to get the set screw tight enough that the knob doesn't free spin, even just a little. Not awesome to have that after all the time spent building, debugging, boxing. etc.
Quote from: Stomptown on August 11, 2016, 05:28:19 AM
Quote from: somnif on August 11, 2016, 05:01:58 AM
Fascinating! I'm still getting back into pedal making after a ~10 year gap so I'm sticking with the cheap for now (grad student budget, woo), but I'm glad to know that better parts exist. I doubt I'll swap the pots in the pedals I already have made, but for future reference maybe I'll try to budget the extra 75 cents a pot to get the "good stuff".
Honestly, the Tayda alphas are probably just fine and I've never heard of people having issues with them so it's probably not worthy the extra cash unless you are super picky or building commercially. My biggest issue using Tayda Alphas for personal builds is that they never seem to have all the values I need and I don't particular like mixing them with the other alphas due to the difference it torque and smaller shaft diameter. Hopefully I didn't come off like a cork sniffer. :D
Thats what really did me in and why I will switch to the good ones next time I need to order more. The tayda ones are annoying enough already being harder to turn and with wobbly knobs but I almost always need a couple of the better ones on my builds to get the values I need and they make the tayda ones seem really pahetic side by side. But thats not the worst thing yet. Its trying to keep the fucking nuts sorted out and remembering which goes where when assembling/dis-assembling.
If Im not crazy the larger nuts will go on the smaller tayda pots easily enough, but if you do that you will be down a bigger one and the smaller ones will NOT fit over the larger shafts.
Also, Mammoth has the good ones for 26 cents cheaper than Small Bear. I know a lot of people dont like them but Ive only had good experiences.
My only problem with Mammoth is their shipping prices tend to be higher than elsewhere (or at least they were ~4 years ago)
Just found this thread. Very interesting to see the differences between the Small Bear pots and the Tayda pots.
Mammoth has really inexpensive USPS shipping if you're ordering small parts. For $3.23 (To San Antonio) I can get 20 pots shipped. That's very reasonable.
Quote from: neandrewthal on August 11, 2016, 01:58:33 PM
Quote from: Stomptown on August 11, 2016, 05:28:19 AM
Quote from: somnif on August 11, 2016, 05:01:58 AM
Fascinating! I'm still getting back into pedal making after a ~10 year gap so I'm sticking with the cheap for now (grad student budget, woo), but I'm glad to know that better parts exist. I doubt I'll swap the pots in the pedals I already have made, but for future reference maybe I'll try to budget the extra 75 cents a pot to get the "good stuff".
Honestly, the Tayda alphas are probably just fine and I've never heard of people having issues with them so it's probably not worthy the extra cash unless you are super picky or building commercially. My biggest issue using Tayda Alphas for personal builds is that they never seem to have all the values I need and I don't particular like mixing them with the other alphas due to the difference it torque and smaller shaft diameter. Hopefully I didn't come off like a cork sniffer. :D
Thats what really did me in and why I will switch to the good ones next time I need to order more. The tayda ones are annoying enough already being harder to turn and with wobbly knobs but I almost always need a couple of the better ones on my builds to get the values I need and they make the tayda ones seem really pahetic side by side. But thats not the worst thing yet. Its trying to keep the fucking nuts sorted out and remembering which goes where when assembling/dis-assembling.
If Im not crazy the larger nuts will go on the smaller tayda pots easily enough, but if you do that you will be down a bigger one and the smaller ones will NOT fit over the larger shafts.
Also, Mammoth has the good ones for 26 cents cheaper than Small Bear. I know a lot of people dont like them but Ive only had good experiences.
You make it sound like turning a Tayda pot is akin to lifting the anker on an 18th century Manowar. Even if so, it might even be a good thing. In my book stiff action is a good thing on pedals because you want the pots to remain on their last setting, not constantly move out of place by the merest breeze off the wind.
Quote from: BrianS on August 11, 2016, 06:13:14 PM
Mammoth has really inexpensive USPS shipping if you're ordering small parts. For $3.23 (To San Antonio) I can get 20 pots shipped. That's very reasonable.
Unless you live in Europe. Then prepare to get assraped. Both by Mammoth and EU customs. With no lube.
I find it interesting that the datasheets for both pots lists the same operational torque (20-200 gf cm). The Tayda pots feel like they take roughly twice the force to turn (in my incredibly scientific testing method).
Quote from: BrianS on August 11, 2016, 06:13:14 PM
Mammoth has really inexpensive USPS shipping if you're ordering small parts. For $3.23 (To San Antonio) I can get 20 pots shipped. That's very reasonable.
Unless you live in Europe. Then prepare to get assraped. Both by Mammoth and EU customs. With no lube.
[/quote]
Sorry man. I understand your delimma about postal charges over there (I was in the US Air Force and spent 11 yrs in Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium). There were times when I had to use the local post and it was like geeeeezzzeee. Your statement is very descriptive and totally hilarious but I don't wish ass raping on anyone with or without lube. It reminds me of watching the HBO series Oz or Deliverance. From now on I will ensure I specify US postage to ensure you will not have vivid images of things I don't even like thinking about LOL.
I've found that typically an extra digit, such as a "1" in the manufacture code denotes where it was manufactured. And as your post demonstrates, that can have a huge impact on the quality. This is one of those deceptive practices by big manufacturers, and many of them do it.
I remember the same thing with some M-audio monitor speakers I quickly returned years ago. The "version" I got had the exact specs and model number as it should, except for one different digit. Turns out, the ones I received had dirt-cheap mylar tweeters, whereas they are supposed to have silk dome tweeters.
Samsung monitors typically have two versions - one made in mexico that is garbage, and then their "real" version which is typically made in korea or japan. Same idea....
Shipping is the number one, ultra top reason why I try to not order from Smallbear, PPP, or small shops in the USA.
Shipping is utterly brutal. Shipping from the UK is normally pain-inducing, as well.
DIYGP-AU's shipping is usually quite reasonable, as is Tayda.
Disclaimer: stingy bastard.
Quote from: Stomptown on August 11, 2016, 05:28:19 AM
Quote from: somnif on August 11, 2016, 05:01:58 AM
Fascinating! I'm still getting back into pedal making after a ~10 year gap so I'm sticking with the cheap for now (grad student budget, woo), but I'm glad to know that better parts exist. I doubt I'll swap the pots in the pedals I already have made, but for future reference maybe I'll try to budget the extra 75 cents a pot to get the "good stuff".
Honestly, the Tayda alphas are probably just fine and I've never heard of people having issues with them so it's probably not worthy the extra cash unless you are super picky or building commercially. My biggest issue using Tayda Alphas for personal builds is that they never seem to have all the values I need and I don't particular like mixing them with the other alphas due to the difference it torque and smaller shaft diameter. Hopefully I didn't come off like a cork sniffer. :D
Alpha pots are the only thing we still get from Tayda. Been using them for years and years and *touches wood* never had any big issues with them.
Quote from: juansolo on August 13, 2016, 06:59:37 AM
Alpha pots are the only thing we still get from Tayda. Been using them for years and years and *touches wood* never had any big issues with them.
Pretty much the same here. Occasionally I'll get box caps if I only need a value or two. And I have some 0805 resistors from there, which seem to be okay at least for hobby use (tolerance seems pretty tight).
I think the pots are just fine. Seeing them opened up shows they are *different* from the Smallbear pots, but I'm not convinced yet that different=shitty.
I agree that the pots are fine. Honestly there resistors always check out for me too. Part of me thinks if I were doing this as a ligit business that I'd be crazy to not use their resistors because they are really cheap and they do the job. Although I guess if I were buying in large enough quantities it would be about the same.
Quote from: Matmosphere on August 13, 2016, 04:03:31 PM
I agree that the pots are fine. Honestly there resistors always check out for me too. Part of me thinks if I were doing this as a ligit business that I'd be crazy to not use their resistors because they are really cheap and they do the job. Although I guess if I were buying in large enough quantities it would be about the same.
I think anybody building pedals as a business is generally wise to avoid Tayda parts. They don't use vetted suppliers like the bigger companies (Mouser, Digikey, Allied, etc) do. For something like resistors in particular, the cost scales down considerably even with moderate volumes so the price difference in minimized and you get a higher quality part.
Nah, I get all of that totally. But honestly I've never had a single resistor from them be out of spec. I generally check them all as I populate so I can try to be sure. The thin leads are a bummer though.
However if I did ever decide to do this commercially I would not use Tayda parts. I've only ever sold a few builds to friends though, and always stuff that I used for a while myself so I knew all was good.
Quote from: Matmosphere on August 13, 2016, 04:57:58 PM
Nah, I get all of that totally. But honestly I've never had a single resistor from them be out of spec. I generally check them all as I populate so I can try to be sure. The thin leads are a bummer though.
However if I did ever decide to do this commercially I would not use Tayda parts. I've only ever sold a few builds to friends though, and always stuff that I used for a while myself so I knew all was good.
Yeah, that makes sense. I wasn't digging on you, just trying to highlight that, in reasonable quantities, you don't really need to compromise on the Tayda resistors as the cost difference flattens out a bit.
Quote from: Stomptown on August 11, 2016, 04:32:37 AM
which explains how Tayda is able to sell theirs for less than half of the other guys.
Agreed Jon, except for one thing. As someone that has seen first hand pricing from alpha Taiwan to pit against Tayda i can tell you, these guys must have practically ZERO overheads. Absolute MINIMUM margins. I have a pretty good idea of what they buy for and sell for and its almost impossible for anyone in a developed first world country (with develop first world bills to pay) to compete with them.
I know they're a thai company, and shipments from them Used to (several years ago) actually get shipped from Thailand, but now they all seem to come from Colorado (for US orders anyway). Much more convenient, certainly, but it must also increase their costs.
Quote from: chromesphere on August 14, 2016, 11:35:31 AM
Quote from: Stomptown on August 11, 2016, 04:32:37 AM
which explains how Tayda is able to sell theirs for less than half of the other guys.
Agreed Jon, except for one thing. As someone that has seen first hand pricing from alpha Taiwan to pit against Tayda i can tell you, these guys must have practically ZERO overheads. Absolute MINIMUM margins. I have a pretty good idea of what they buy for and sell for and its almost impossible for anyone in a developed first world country (with develop first world bills to pay) to compete with them.
Man that's crazy. Just one more reason I'd rather not buy from them...
Quote from: Matmosphere on August 13, 2016, 04:57:58 PM
Nah, I get all of that totally. But honestly I've never had a single resistor from them be out of spec. I generally check them all as I populate so I can try to be sure. The thin leads are a bummer though.
I quite like those thin leads. Super easy to bend, never had one break off. I can even squeeze them in flat on layouts that require smaller resistors. I could never do that with thicker leads. In fact whenever I come across a resistor with thick leads I feel like I'm seeing a dinosaur. Like do they still make these?
And I always check them with a DMM beforehand, they always check out.
Not a fan of the thin leads personally...Breadboarding, soldering offboard (CLR's etc). I Also find thin leads (specifically tayda) snap more easily then most other thicker leaded resistors i've used. Just me though, YMMV
Quote from: chromesphere on August 14, 2016, 11:35:31 AM
Quote from: Stomptown on August 11, 2016, 04:32:37 AM
which explains how Tayda is able to sell theirs for less than half of the other guys.
Agreed Jon, except for one thing. As someone that has seen first hand pricing from alpha Taiwan to pit against Tayda i can tell you, these guys must have practically ZERO overheads. Absolute MINIMUM margins. I have a pretty good idea of what they buy for and sell for and its almost impossible for anyone in a developed first world country (with develop first world bills to pay) to compete with them.
You are likely correct about them having low labor overhead (although that's actually changing a bit in China).
This is all conjecture, but I suspect that their primary cost savings is that they use a combination of non-standard supply chain from non-vetted suppliers and lower cost/quality parts. China has a plethora of component distributors, not all of which pay very close attention to the parts they are shuffling around. When through-hole FETs were discontinued, I asked a consultant I work with in China to go directly to some of the better local suppliers (that actually had a store front) to source some for me. I got a pile of parts that were either out of spec and/or relabeled. I've never run into a comparable situation from Mouser, Digikey, Farnell or any of the other standard suppliers.
Over the years from Tayda, I've gotten a number of parts that were out of spec, not what they were sold as, or (more commonly) marked in a way inconsistent with how I've receive them from other suppliers (assuming the same manufacturer). I suspect they get others parts from whatever parts broker they can get them at the cheapest price they can get them. Others, they may get cheaper from the manufacturer because they are slightly different than the normal parts for one reason or another.
It's not that uncommon of an approach, but it's important for the customer to understand that the parts they buy could be:
1.) Slightly different in a non-important way than similar parts from most other suppliers (IE: .235" vs .25" shaft size on *some* of the Alpha pots, which I find annoying).
2.) Slightly out of spec (or sometimes wildly in the case of their diodes).
3.) Marked differently than they should be, indicated that they might be fake or somehow non-standard (somewhat common with their ICs). Often these work anyway, but sometimes sound different.
4.) Lower quality albeit with a correspondingly much lower price (resistors, sockets, almost all hardware they carry). This might be a worthwhile trade off for some hobbyists.
I've bought stuff there in the past and, for personal use, will probably buy certain things there in the future. I just think it's important to understand the risks associated with it.
One solution for the shaft diameter is using heat shrink on the shaft. A bit of a hassle, but maybe a hassle that is worth 75 cents per pot. It'll also hold the set screw a lot better than just screw-against-bare-shaft.
Excellent idea! I recently ordered a bunch of heat shrink. Will have to try this.