I'm trying to get the Prototype order out for the Relay Bypass project I am working on.
I need some feedback/suggestions from those interested in this for possible features.
So far I am working on a Single Relay configured for single Effect Bypassing, via on board momentary or remote momentary switch.
It could be wired as an AB switch, and controlled via on board or remote momentary switch.
It could also be used to create an amp foot switch where you need to connect two control lines together from the amp for channel switching. This would allow you to incorporate the amp switch into a bigger true bypass box or similar.
The relay runs on 2 mosfets and a CD4049UBE inverter chip. There will also be a 3rd mosfet for an optional "Soft" Ramp on the effect output, to avoid pops because of noise/sound levels.
It will include a status LED.
Other considerations/suggestions that would make this attractive to users?
I think the biggest things for me are how it performs. IE: signal doesn't cut out or cause an audible pop when switched, switches consistently with different shorting durations and frequencies. It would also be nice it it would default to bypassed when the power source is removed. Low parts cost would be a plus too. :)
-Aaron
its a latching relay, so it defaults to the previous stage, just like mechanical bypass. It always bothered me how the Boss Pedals default to ON I think, and I wanted to. The latching relay also draws the least amount of power.
It uses a flip flop to debounce the switch, and only triggers on the make, so duration is not an issue. Frequency I am testing, but its one of those things where you can make it faster if you need it because it is discrete.
The relay itself is a mechanical switch, ableit a much more robust one than typical 3PDTs/ I am including a mosfet switch on the effect return that ramps on the sound very smoothly but quickly to avoid pop associated with different sound levels, while still retaining the true bypass configuration.
Quote from: aflynt on August 26, 2011, 03:04:45 PM
I think the biggest things for me are how it performs. IE: signal doesn't cut out or cause an audible pop when switched, switches consistently with different shorting durations and frequencies. It would also be nice it it would default to bypassed when the power source is removed. Low parts cost would be a plus too. :)
-Aaron
+1 I'm more worried about function than features. As long as it functions 100 percent of the time I
Good, although a led would be nice.
Quote from: jimmybjj on August 26, 2011, 03:18:01 PM
Quote from: aflynt on August 26, 2011, 03:04:45 PM
I think the biggest things for me are how it performs. IE: signal doesn't cut out or cause an audible pop when switched, switches consistently with different shorting durations and frequencies. It would also be nice it it would default to bypassed when the power source is removed. Low parts cost would be a plus too. :)
-Aaron
+1 I'm more worried about function than features. As long as it functions 100 percent of the time I
Good, although a led would be nice.
My sentiments exactly. Really looking forward to this for a big project I have in mind.
Yes, of course. I may have mentioned before that this is based on a verified circuit by RG at http://www.geofex.com/FX_images/ltchrly.gif
I've improved upon it to drive a latching relay via Mosfets, etc. The relay is the TQ2-L-5V, also used in Jack Deville's system, he has tested the relay to 400,000+ cycles (and the manufacturer claims it can do much more.) http://www.clicklesstruebypass.com/
static protection diode for the mosfets would be a good Idea.
Quote from: cjkbug on August 26, 2011, 04:08:26 PM
static protection diode for the mosfets would be a good Idea.
got that too. I'll get the schematic up this weekend.
great, that feature was lacking in another design I've tried and it's functionality was short lived. can't wait to see what you've come up with. ;)
Here's what we're working with. This is a single relay set up for true bypassing an effect, with an optional electronic switch on the effect return. It can also be used to make/break connections, or as an AB switch, etc.
Trigger switches can be placed in parallel (ex, 1 on board, 1 remote via isolated TS, XLR or DIN connector.
Major Parts,
1 Latching Relay
1 4049UBE
1 5V Regulator
3 Mosfets (2 for Relay, 1 for Optional Switch)
Overall space is takes up about 1.85" by 1.25", which isn't tiny, but could still fit in a 1590B if you dropped the battery. This isn't meant to be the tiniest, most efficient option, but rather its designed to work with off the shelf parts, and be versatile. Use it for custom switcher and remote switcher applications, etc.
I only have to test out the Mosfet switch before I'm ready to send this to the prototyper.
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These look great and I can't wait to get my hands on a couple. By chance, would they be able to do something like this:
http://woboge.com/boxes_doublelooper.html
My buddy has one and it works awesome. A really cool unit that uses the soft touch switches.
yes, with 2 boards you could do that. I'm may work on some other more advanced projects based on this in the future, but for now this will cover many bases.
Hey Friends. I finished the layout saturday, but lost power before I could place a prototype order, so it will go next weekend. I am hoping to have that in hand, tested and if things go well, I might have these in bulk at the beginning of October.
If you guys have any other ideas for projects you'd like to see me hash out, please feel free to let me know.
Great news. Any recommendation on what footswitch (brand/style/make, etc) to use with it?
not yet, but I will!
How about a micro-sized 2 band Bax-type EQ, like the Xotic Boosters have. I think I can make something under 1 square inch. thoughts?
Whatever happened to the parametric eq you were working on last year?
Jacob
i had to put it aside for a while. I built a few of the first version and so did some others, and it worked pretty well, but it was complicated and cumbersome as a project. I wanted to improve upon it, but I wasn't able to come up with a configuration that was universal enough (bassists, acoustic, electric, etc). So ultimately I lost interest. I'd be willing to revisit it in the future if there's enough interest.
I have designed a fuller-featured active baxandall that adds mids and presence controls to the standard bass and treble, and also a uber high cut. The kind of thing I see myself using at the end of a pedalboard as a Buffer/EQ.
With the Micro EQ idea I had today, or uEQ as I will probably call it, I'm thinking of a tiny board that can be tucked inside a dirt box, wired on the output, OR mounted in a 1590A or bigger using 9mm pots for an always on, unity gain buffer/EQ.
Cool. I'd love to see that larger Baxandall with mids/pres project.
Pming....
Jacob
here's what I'm thinking for the mini EQ. approximate size, 1.2" square. Bass and Treble Boost/Cut. Small enough to tuck inside a dirt pedal and wire with off board 16mm or on board 9mm pots.
Here's a preview
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Looks very cool. Just one question. I have never seen those two large things in eagle, what are they?
Those are actually 9MM board mount pots. Because of the orientation you and also use right angle 9MM or off board pot of your choosing.
very cool, I will purchase one of these from you should you decide to produce them. what are the 4 large pads for?
those are plated through holes for the 9mm pots. the pots have 2 metal legs that help anchor them down, but aren't electrically connected to anything.
i'm talking about these, http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=1139 (http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=1139)
Not sure if you've already sent of to prototyper, but I thought of something else that might be useful.
This might be tough looking at the current layout, but being able to use a PCB mounted switch would be pretty neat. There'd be no worries about mounting the board somewhere.
Are you talking about the relay board? I'd rather not put the switch on the board itself, for a few reasons.
1, you only need 2 contacts, so the switch soldered connection supporting the board wouldn't be all that sturdy. making the switch on board would also jump up the size of the board, and the price.
2, its designed to do more than just single effect bypassing. You can put any number in a box and make a relay-based looper, or amp switch, and they all can be remote controlled with external switches wired in parallel.
For something this small, double sided foam tape works wonderfully in my opinion.
Ah, good points.
Now that I think about it some more, with the board mounted on the side of the enclosure, it could free up a decent amount of space, too.
personally, I think the battery space is better used by this. batteries are just terrible things. however, this is also a latching relay, so it really doesn't draw much power when on/off, only when switching so it could run off a battery just the same.
What would be the best way to add the LED indicator?
Also, is this the right type of relay:
http://www.talonix.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=12914 (http://www.talonix.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=12914)
Quote from: jubal81 on September 02, 2011, 02:50:21 PM
What would be the best way to add the LED indicator?
Also, is this the right type of relay:
http://www.talonix.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=12914 (http://www.talonix.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=12914)
I've designed it for this relay,
http://www.mammothelectronics.com/TQ2-L-5V-Low-Profile-2-Form-C-Relay-p/130-1000.htm
http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=791
as for the LED, you would run 2 wires from the board to the LED. The switching is controlled by the 4049 logic chip.
Nice, thanks for clearing that up.
I'm glad you're working this up. I foresee buying a ton of these.
let's see I have about 8 builds to retrofit and another 15 or so planned..
looks like I had better find a good volume discount on those relays! I know it isn't at all necessary and comes out to around three times the cost of a blue 3pdt but I absolutely love the luxury of soft switching.
the bax looks awesome as well, perfect to have a few on hand for shiggles. great work!
Quote from: aziltz on August 30, 2011, 01:08:14 PMIf you guys have any other ideas for projects you'd like to see me hash out, please feel free to let me know.
*rubs chin*
If you'd like to have a crack at designing the PCB for the boobtube/charge pump/buffer you'd probably do a far better job than I'm doing of it at the moment! I think my last attempt left me thinking that, you know, wiring it on the back of the socket and using vero for the rest ain't that bad really ;)
i'll have to take a look at it. I was previously planning to keep my projects in the utility camp, but if there's enough interest, I can work on a few actual effects.
I had an idea to make a breakout board for this 9mm 1P6T switch, similar to the PNP layout provided, but fabricated. Thoughts?
http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=581
I would DEFINETLY take a couple of those. I bought two and can't seem to wrap my head around them. The other styled bigger ones make sense to me but I had trouble figuring this one out with my multimeter. I have to find them and look at it again. I want to use them for multiple diode selection like I did here:
http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=2456.0
Quote from: aziltz on September 05, 2011, 01:16:39 PM
i'll have to take a look at it. I was previously planning to keep my projects in the utility camp, but if there's enough interest, I can work on a few actual effects.
I had an idea to make a breakout board for this 9mm 1P6T switch, similar to the PNP layout provided, but fabricated. Thoughts?
http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=581
I like that Idea. got a few things that would work on.
i just put in an order for prototypes of the relay and the EQ. if they work when I verify them, I will have a few extra, before placing a large quantity order.
Quote from: aziltz on September 05, 2011, 05:29:29 PM
i just put in an order for prototypes of the relay and the EQ. if they work when I verify them, I will have a few extra, before placing a large quantity order.
Out of curiosity, which fab house do you use?
I use the dorkbotpdx hobby service for protos and I've used silver circuits for my micro buffer run.
ok I'm going to be prototyping a couple of things.
Relay Bypass Board
Micro EQ (2 Band Bax, similar to Xotic pedals)
9mm 1P6T Breakout Boards (1 for Caps, 1 for clipping)
I will have a few extras once I verify these.
The power supply project will have to wait until next month.
Sounds really cool, I'm interested! Great ideas!
Would the layouts be single sided and would you share them for those who etch themselves? That would be awesome!
Also having a board for the Boob tube as Juansolo chimed in would be super sweet.
Cheers!
these will all be double sided, manufactured boards, but I will share single side versions where I can, although I might have to drop some features. The idea here is to have things be as small and versatile as possible.
Where do we sign up? Just let us know how to pre-order with ya ;)
Pre-ordering might be a good idea Austin.
Jacob
I'm going to try to set that up this weekend. I was trying to get as many projects committed to the prototyper before I started talking about pre-orders, but I have 4 of 5 that I wanted in.
Here's a preview of the 1P6T breakout boards. I've designed 1 for cap switching and one for diodes. The cap one is straight forward as you can see.
For the 1P6T Diode selector, I attempted to make it as small as possibly while providing a good spread of configurations. I stood things on end so it would also be easy to swap between different diode types. Here's the break down of the layout:
2x Symmetric
2x1 Asymmetric
4x Timmy (pairs joined in middle)
3x2 Asymmetric (with cap to bypass 3rd diode)
2x LED (for same type)
2x LED (for mismatch)
I tried to hit enough bases that things could also be adaptable to your favorites, and I threw in one of my own, 3 diodes to 2 asymmetric with a cap to bypass the third diode.
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That's Rad dude. Very super cool. I will be taking at least one of those...
Jacob
hey friends, for anyone who's interested in getting some of these as they come available, I should have a very limited number towards the second half of the september.
I've put up a pre-order (http://coldcrafteffects.net/PCB_Store.html) for the two 1P6T Boards and the Micro EQ. I'm going to wait to put up the Relay board until I'm closer to having them ready.
For the pre-order, shipping is again free until I place orders for larger quantities. Pre-ordered boards will ship as they come available. If you would like to order buffer PCBs as well, shipping will be charged normally for those, and they will be shipped immediately.
I've also created a forum (http://www.forum.coldcrafteffects.net/index.php) on my website to provide support for these projects, and also to facilitate conversations like this thread without stepping on Brian's toes here at madbeanpedals. It's also a forum to support my pedal designs, but feel free to join in if you enjoy the sort of projects I've been up to.
Please let me know if you have any questions!
I was surfing around tonight and discovered that SmallBear has some new items, including a 'true bypass latching relay driver chip' from Pedal Sync.
Looks like the idea is that all you need is the chip, a latching relay and a way to interface the 5V digital pin.
Here's the data sheet if you wanna take a look at it:
http://www.pedalsync.com/downloads/DRAFT_-_PedalSync_Relay_Bypass_Datasheet_v0_1.pdf
thanks for that link, the data sheet is quite helpful.
i've decided to do a 180 on this...
my discrete drive design works, but I'm not so satisfied with the footprint and parts count for the applications I want.
a friend of mine, Peter Rutter of VFE Effects, has a bypass system that uses a custom chip to drive the same relay. It does everything that my 4049 and mosfets have been doing, but in a DIP8 form. He is planning to make them available in the next couple months such that they could be sourced for a few bucks. Combined with the compactness of the relay, this should make for a better, smaller bypass system.
I have a few test pieces that I am going to start designing around. First two projects will be the single and dual channel DPDT drivers I have been discussing, though they will have a number of features that will make them quite useful in a variety of applications.
Single Relay Driver:
Effect Bypass
Amp Channel Switching
AB Switch
MUTE Switch
Dual Relay Driver:
Dual Mono Bypass
Stereo Bypass
ABY (Buffered with Micro Buffer PCB)
Clean/Dirty with Master Bypass
Clean/Dirty with Effects Loop
and any others I can come up with.
all applications can be on-board or remotely switched using latching or momentary switches or driven by remote logic signals from other projects (5v).
anyway, that's where this project is at for the moment. this should allow me to get this going quicker as there is less to prototype. I'm planning to order this in mid november so I receive them before the December holidays. I know a lot of people have been waiting on these.
Super cool.
Fewer parts & smaller footprint without spending big bucks is a win-win. The toughest part now is waiting a few more months.
It might not be practical, but i can imagine using this system to run a few relays at once with a pushbutton to seriously change a sets of mods.
Thanks for working on this, Az.
Quote from: jubal81 on October 26, 2011, 10:25:03 PM
Super cool.
Fewer parts & smaller footprint without spending big bucks is a win-win. The toughest part now is waiting a few more months.
It might not be practical, but i can imagine using this system to run a few relays at once with a pushbutton to seriously change a sets of mods.
Thanks for working on this, Az.
Sorry about the wait. I am hoping to have in my next batch. It might be overkill for switching mods. Perhaps a solid state switch would be better for that.
Quote from: aziltz on October 26, 2011, 08:43:18 PM
a friend of mine, Peter Rutter of VFE Effects, has a bypass system that uses a custom chip to drive the same relay. It does everything that my 4049 and mosfets have been doing, but in a DIP8 form. He is planning to make them available in the next couple months such that they could be sourced for a few bucks. Combined with the compactness of the relay, this should make for a better, smaller bypass system.
I have a few test pieces that I am going to start designing around. First two projects will be the single and dual channel DPDT drivers I have been discussing, though they will have a number of features that will make them quite useful in a variety of applications.
FWIW: I designed the system for VFE.
Quote from: Jack Deville on October 27, 2011, 06:36:26 PM
FWIW: I designed that system for VFE.
Yes! Jack deserves credit for the design. I've only been talking to Peter at this point, and I assume that his intentions to sell the driver chips from his system is not news to you. I'm only designing a few projects to use them, and I'll be sure to give credit where credit is due in the literature, etc.
I've been kind of hoping Peter would just make his whole daughter board available. VFE guts have gotten so good over the last while.