Hello guys, this question is for those who have their own small pedal companies;
I have a pedal that I have tweaked for several years now and although not an original design, I think it is somewhat different and special enough to warrant production. I have kicked the idea around for a while but don't even know where to begin. So here it goes:
1. Did you design the circuit board layout yourself or contract someone else to do it? If so, who and at what cost?
2. Who did you get to make your PCB's? What quantity and price?
3. Surface mount or through board components?
4. Who did you use for drilling boxes? Having Graphics done? Cost?
5. Overall cost to do a first run? What quantity? How do you determine a price? Was it worth it?
I understand that this is not a money making venture. I am really not interesting in producing anything but this one pedal so this is not intended to be a "start" to something bigger. It would just be awesome to know that people use something that I spent so much time trying to sound as good as it can.
The way we do it at FFX is evolving, and it's not the kind of process that you are interested in (based on your post).
But, I can answer your questions with what I would do if I were starting my own pedal company.
1) PCB Designed myself (I've done hundreds of boards)
2) Elecrow or one of the other cheap Chinese board houses. Boards are generally about $1.25-$2 each including shipping. Quantities can be very small (<10)
3) Through hole unless there is a good reason otherwise (I can explain my thinking if you want)
4) I might drill them myself because I have a decent drill and step bits. I would most likely use Mammoth or PPP to do UV printing of the graphics. If time was more important to me than money, I'd also have them drill.
5) Hard to calculate without knowing quantity, finishing specs, costed BOM for the circuit, how much work is outsourced, etc.
If you want, I could help you start analyzing costs. I've seen enough of how pickdropper does it with FFX to be able to do it on a smaller scale.
Step 1. Get a card table...
First question: are you planning on selling direct or through dealers/distribution? That will play a significant role in strategy.
Thanks for the replies and great info guys.
I would rather sell direct. Think Analogman, Paul Cochran, or Klon but wildly unsuccessful......
Also, time is important to me so I think it would be worth it to hire out as much of the process as I could. PPP would probably be my best bet to buy painted and drilled enclosures. My son is willing to help and he's a screen printer with access to everything needed at work to do graphics. He can also solder well and is willing to help me build. He also works at Music Lab in Austin so a lot of people could potentially demo the pedal with their own rig in that setting.
Quote from: shawnee on October 24, 2017, 05:12:09 PM
Also, time is important to me so I think it would be worth it to hire out as much of the process as I could. PPP would probably be my best bet to buy painted and drilled enclosures. My son is willing to help and he's a screen printer with access to everything needed at work to do graphics.
It might be tricky to silkscreen boxes *after* they've been drilled. I would recommend simply including the drill marks in the artwork and drilling post-screening. If you're not planning on selling many, it shouldn't be a big time-killer to drill them yourself.
I guess the question I have is how many do you plan to produce during a given period? Are you shooting for a single run of 25 or 50? Or would you rather build 10 a month?
Quote from: diablochris6 on October 24, 2017, 04:15:06 PM
Step 1. Get a card table...
I thought that only worked for pcb companies
Great idea about using drill marks on the silk screen. I didn't want to drill at all because laying out the marks is a pain but I could drill them pre-marked.
I guess not knowing what the interest level would be I would start out with a single run. If 75% or so were sold, I could re-order and start a list for the next batch. That would keep me from constantly having to keep building if I was between batches. I'm talking best case scenario as far as interest of course.
I guess I would have to get a tax ID and deal with that aspect as well.
Ok, if you are going to sell direct, here's a reasonable process flow:
Start with a 10 build batch. This will limit your cash exposure. If you are feeling really adventurous, you could bump to 25.
- Order pre-printed enclosures from PPP. Either drill yourself or have them drill. It depends on how much free time you have an how many holes are in the box. At low quantities, they are likely to do them by hand, so you can probably do just as good of a job. FWIW, I would drop the coin on Hougen mini hole saws. They are expensive, but much safer and work fantastic. If you start with a 10 pedal build, order a second batch of enclosures once you have sold the first 5. This will help with the lead time associated with getting the next batch.
- Order double the number of boards as the batch size of enclosures. That way, you can build up the next batch of PCBs while waiting for the next batch of enclosures. Stage the assembly process so it doesn't all come to a bottleneck.
- Find the break points for components. Personally, I would go reasonably heavy on the passives 50-100 (or whatever the break is at Mouser) to keep the pricing reasonable. At this, the costs are often reasonably competitive with Tayda (which I believe have no business in commercial builds).
- Put together a BOM of actual cost breakdowns with and without quantity breaks. That way you have a feel for your actual costs and the trade-offs. Add a buffer for parts handling (shipping costs usually). Do your best to include all incidental costs.
- When you setup your artwork, make sure you have some acceptable tolerances built in. Don't run anything internal hard to the edges. Places like PPP are great, but aren't known for their military precision.
I am sure there's more, but that's a start. Nothing here is the definitively *right* way to do it, just my thoughts at the moment.
You probably don't need to worry about taxes yet unless you sell quite a few. There is some point (I think it's $600-$700) of profit that you don't have to report or pay taxes on. You only need to worry about taxes if you make more than that in 12 months.
Get cozy with guitar magazines too. My old company Laffing Dog sent a few of our Blue Dogs out for review and the reviews were stellar, which in turn got us in the door at Chicago Music Exchange. CME did quite well with the pedals till time/financial burdens took their toll and we dropped off the radar. By then any momentum we had (15 minutes in the sun) was gone.
I think that anyone else that's doing or has done it before will agree that the business end of things can really ruin a great hobby. That said, there's no reason you can't ramp up or down depending on if you're basing making a living at it or not. In our case we were all too wrapped up in previous lives to really make a go of it.
It's a cool feeling knowing that your stuff is out there getting played though...
Don't want to be a party pooper, but in the US, if your pedal has a charge pump or anything digital in it, you'll also have to worry about FCC compliance once you go commercial (been a while since I looked into this, so I may not remember all the details accurately...).
Quote from: EBK on October 25, 2017, 12:14:41 AM
Don't want to be a party pooper, but in the US, if your pedal has a charge pump or anything digital in it, you'll also have to worry about FCC compliance once you go commercial (been a while since I looked into this, so I may not remember all the details accurately...).
EHX got dinged, but I doubt the average small pedal company is going to draw any scrutiny from a federal agency. I see Wampler has his stuff tested, but most other mid-sized companies don't seem to be in compliance.
That's why I said you'd have to "worry" instead of "comply". :P
The FCC is always aware of the fact that they are spending the public's money to protect the public. If the balance of public dollars vs. public value is significantly skewed, then, yes, they will look elsewhere.
Man that sucks cause it has a charge pump!
Quote from: shawnee on October 25, 2017, 01:02:09 AM
Man that sucks cause it has a charge pump!
I'm not seriously suggesting this, but the little devil sitting on my shoulder made me laugh by suggesting:
"Just goop it."
;D
:) If it will save $1500...............
Another vote for selling direct. Set a budget for advertising and spend money on getting well known personalities doing youTube demos. Sometimes this will cost you a pedal. Some have a fixed fee. It's worth it if you get the right people. Get some heat on you before going to dealers (they may even come to you eventually). And, as already mentioned: start small. Put your best idea out there first. An ideal release schedule for pedals is somewhere around 4-6 month cycles. This gives you time to maintain stock levels on current products but also keeps your name/brand out there by putting something new out a couple times a year.
Also, you will get lots of people coming out of the woodwork trying to get free pedals for demos for their "new youTube site/blog", etc. Be polite but refuse. Spend the money and time where it counts.
Thank you guys! I'm not 100% sure that I want to take this on but you have given me a lot to think about. I guess the first step would be creating a pcb with everything mounted directly to it. My current pedal has two boards with some components mounted on pots and such. Do you typically etch a single layer pcb yourself to test? What format is required to send the design to a pcb manufacturer?
Im gonna add in something here which may have been mentioned but might not have been as I skimmed some responses:
When devising pricing for your product make sure to factor in
1 - lost in shipping (irrespective of insurance on shipping; you may have to wait for a claim)
2 - returns
3 - repairs
4 - charge a price where you actually make money at it (to cover your time, and 1-3 above)
Lastly, keep a stock of spare parts
I think if I were to ever embark on a proper batch production I would look to use footswitch boards with molex connectors, molex to PSU etc -
basically making things modular where possible, because it means if you ever need to repair something its easy to isolate, and plug and play to fix.
When I look at some of the smaller "boutique" people offering direct or via ebay and other channels stuff like fuzzes etc for £50 I struggle to understand where they make a good living at it.
I guess it depends if you endeavour for this to be a sole income source, or a hobby business, or something in between
Quote from: LaceSensor on October 27, 2017, 09:30:54 AM
4 - charge a price where you actually make money at it (to cover your time, and 1-3 above)
Precisely why I don't generally sell pedals. I could easily charge a price that covers my costs, but if I value my time at anything reasonable over $0/hour, then I'd always be selling at a steep loss or pricing myself out of the market.
Pay your taxes. There is no amount of money you can make that will make it okay to fail to report it. If you aren't factoring taxes into your price, your price is wrong. If you don't know all the taxes you need to pay, you need to consider if you can afford a CPA or similar to advise you so that you pay the taxes. If you don't want to pay the CPA and you just want to wing it, don't complain at the end of the year if you owe more than you made.
Comply with laws regarding emissions. If you are using anything digital, any charge pumps, etc., you need to be worried. You can probably get away with it, but all you need to do is piss off the wrong person, who reports you, and then you get fined, and there is no amount of money you can make for a small run of pedals that will make the fine worth it.
If you're going to be a business, be a business and do the right business things. If you are just building them for fun, build them for fun and don't pretend you're a business when it suits you and pretend you're not when it hurts your bottom line.
Don't sell something that you wouldn't want your best friend stomping on at the most important gig of their life. If you don't trust it, don't let it out your door.
Don't deceive people, keep your word, don't bend the rules, and don't cut corners.
Finally, don't take actual business advice from people who don't like selling things or dislike dealing with money, like me.
heh.
I wish you the best of luck. There are tons of people out there doing the same thing. But if you start out small I'm sure it'll work with friends and friends of friends. I sold a fuzz factory to a friend a year ago and since then I've built at least 10 for for others. No matter what pedals I show them. Everyone wants a fuzz factory. At least it's an easy pedal to build. I basically charge people a little more than the cost of parts though if it's a friend.
Just curious. What's the deal with the fcc and charge pumps?
Quote from: bsoncini on October 27, 2017, 06:17:19 PM
Just curious. What's the deal with the fcc and charge pumps?
Anything that uses clock or timing pulses >9kHz.
Quote from: EBK on October 27, 2017, 06:44:43 PM
Quote from: bsoncini on October 27, 2017, 06:17:19 PM
Just curious. What's the deal with the fcc and charge pumps?
Anything that uses clock or timing pulses >9kHz.
Ok. You would think the fcc has better things to do than go after someone selling a few pedals such as the monopoly of radio/TV by a few select companies but I guess in the US anything's possible.
Quote from: bsoncini on October 27, 2017, 06:59:52 PM
Ok. You would think the fcc has better things to do than go after someone selling a few pedals such as the monopoly of radio/TV by a few select companies
They do.
Quote from: midwayfair on October 27, 2017, 03:34:19 PM
Finally, don't take actual business advice from people who don't like selling things or dislike dealing with money, like me.
heh.
LOL I fall in this category also.
Wanted to say, there is some great info in this thread and it really makes you think about your selling decisions. Thanks everyone.
Cody
Well thank you all for your input. After everything that has been brought up that I was totally clueless about, I think I am going to pass on this project. :(