madbeanpedals::forum

General => Open Discussion => Topic started by: aion on January 17, 2018, 08:18:30 PM

Title: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: aion on January 17, 2018, 08:18:30 PM
Yikes. I and most of the other US-based PCB sellers around here rely on USPS's International Flats pretty heavily for international shipments, but they're changing it in a couple days so it's now only valid for documents and correspondence, not merchandise of any sort. Letters are now subject to the same rules as well, so there don't appear to be any sneaky alternatives.

https://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2017/pb22482/html/updt_006.htm

Did anyone else know about this?

I'm covered somewhat by Stamps.com/ShipStation - they have a new thing called the Global Advantage Program (https://help.shipstation.com/hc/en-us/articles/115016033267) where you mail it to them and then they relabel it and send it overseas for only $2.50 extra (covering the cost of getting it to them, I think), and it's all done automatically so nothing really changes except the cost - apparently they have a special agreement with USPS allowing them to send packages as flats under the old rates and regulations. But it still stings.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: madbean on January 17, 2018, 09:27:29 PM
I had not heard about this. I use Endicia/Dazzle for all my international shipments and I don't recall receiving any notification of the change. This is really terrible news, actually. It's going to have a major impact on international customers. I really don't know what else to say...
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: somnif on January 17, 2018, 10:43:39 PM
Pcbs have writing on them,  therefore they are documents! ...cough.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 17, 2018, 11:43:51 PM
I've been using Endicia for years but I may need to switch if they don't offer a comparable service like stamps.com.

About half my sales are international flats.  If I lose international sales because of the shipping change, it may not be worth keeping up a storefront anymore.

I understand why they are doing it, but this one hurts...

Josh
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: sjaustin on January 18, 2018, 02:35:36 AM
Dang! I'm really sorry that this is going to affect you guys. I hope there's a reliable workaround.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: aion on January 18, 2018, 02:26:13 PM
Quote from: gtr2 on January 17, 2018, 11:43:51 PM
About half my sales are international flats.

Same. And probably half of my international orders are just for one or two PCBs, which is very economical at $4 shipping. It'll still be palatable at $6.50, I think, but still less attractive.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 18, 2018, 02:48:14 PM
I found this on Endicia's website this morning...looks like they will be following the same process as stamps.com

https://www.endicia.com/support/faq-answer/?id=000001845

Josh
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: madbean on January 18, 2018, 02:50:52 PM
Quote from: gtr2 on January 18, 2018, 02:48:14 PM
I found this on Endicia's website this morning...looks like they will be following the same process as stamps.com

https://www.endicia.com/support/faq-answer/?id=000001845

Josh

That's good news, thanks for posting that. Still, it's kind of a messed up way to do things. I'm a little bit weary of how reliable this is going to be.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: aion on January 18, 2018, 07:57:36 PM
Quote from: madbean on January 18, 2018, 02:50:52 PM
Still, it's kind of a messed up way to do things. I'm a little bit weary of how reliable this is going to be.

It'll definitely add a couple days to shipping time, even assuming they can get it out the same day it was received, which seems unlikely. I wonder if they would ever get backed up, e.g. during the holidays which would add to the delay even further.

Endicia didn't indicate that there was any additional cost to this like ShipStation did, but there's no way they can ship it twice for the same cost (especially for 1oz packages). I'd be curious what their rates end up being.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: diablochris6 on January 18, 2018, 10:28:13 PM
I wonder how this will affect any hobbyist who sends an international PIF or whatnot in a standard letter envelope or inside a birthday card. Wouldn't this policy also affect gift cards sent in cards as well? Not sure about the weight of those.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Rockhorst on January 19, 2018, 09:12:20 AM
I'm so glad that Dutch postal services are a lot less finnicky about this kind of stuff. When this madness with USPS started I was expecting them to follow that example, but so far, so good. If it fits through a standard size letter box, you're allowed to put whatever you want (within the law) inside an envelope. Current price point for 2 medium PCBs, including the envelope, is $3.50 here at the moment. The 4 Bungard sensitized FR4 material I sent out yesterday was about $10 ( (heavy stuff, about the weight of 2 boss pedals).

Hope it all pans out and that there's a work around or something.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 20, 2018, 01:30:03 AM
The endicia rates for shipping flats using the "trusted partners" are about the same as the stamps.com service.

I imagine it is the same 3rd party for all the popular shipping interfaces.

We'll see in a few days...

Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: madbean on January 20, 2018, 01:48:56 AM
Yeah I'll be reporting back when I find out more how this is going to work. Please do the same!
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: madbean on January 21, 2018, 04:52:08 PM
Well, I'm not seeing the option to ship with Flats re-labeling option with the Dazzle software.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 22, 2018, 01:55:15 PM
I have no options but to ship a package rate so far.
I contacted Endicia about it a few min ago, I'm not sure how quick they are to respond.
I would have thought the last update would have included the option they presented.
If I ship out the current international orders I have at the moment I will take a $40+ loss on shipping...
I may need to get creative if they can't fix it quickly.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: aion on January 22, 2018, 02:25:12 PM
Quote from: gtr2 on January 22, 2018, 01:55:15 PM
I have no options but to ship a package rate so far.
I contacted Endicia about it a few min ago, I'm not sure how quick they are to respond.
I would have thought the last update would have included the option they presented.
If I ship out the current international orders I have at the moment I will take a $40+ loss on shipping...
I may need to get creative if they can't fix it quickly.

You can get ShipStation free for the first month... it'll take a bit to get everything set up and may not be worth saving $40, but maybe Endicia will have things figured out by the time the trial is up?
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 23, 2018, 02:56:12 PM
Quote from: madbean on January 21, 2018, 04:52:08 PM
Well, I'm not seeing the option to ship with Flats re-labeling option with the Dazzle software.
I called Endicia's support number today as my support ticket was not answered.  They have to activate it on your account and you have to call to do it.  None of which was said in the email...
I have had the mac plan and use my laptop, but it's only available on windows for the addition.  So I have to do a workaround.  Luckily I have a PC now for all my design work (as I needed Altium for a project), but now I have two plans mac/PC but one only pay for one.

I have to wait for everything to go through the Global Shipping provider and then I can resume shipping international flats at the higher rate but not the higher package rate.

Josh
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: aion on January 23, 2018, 04:45:07 PM
For those of you outside the US, what kind of shipping rates do you typically pay for PCBs when ordering inside of Europe, Australia, etc.?
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: bsoncini on January 23, 2018, 06:20:33 PM
Quote from: aion on January 23, 2018, 04:45:07 PM
For those of you outside the US, what kind of shipping rates do you typically pay for PCBs when ordering inside of Europe, Australia, etc.?

I think the only person I've ever bought pcbs from in europe is Parasit Studios and I think it varies depending on how many pcbs but iirc anywhere from 2 to 4 euros.  I'm sure Frederik knows better than me.  I have sent a few things to people in europe.  To send a few pcbs in France costs me about 2-3 euros and outside France in Europe maybe 4-5 (which is basically the same price to the US)

If I order a small amount of parts from musikding the shipping normally costs around 3 euros and is sent as a letter by german post and probably weighs more than a few pcbs.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: madbean on January 23, 2018, 08:22:19 PM
I got an email response to my support ticket which confirmed what Josh said, so I'm going to see about getting it set up.

Interesting tidbit from the email:
We also recommend that you call our Tech Support line to speak to an agent who can remote into your computer and guide you through the process.

JFC. I cannot believe they would even suggest that. Who's going to let some IT guy remote into their computer for something like that? No thanks.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: EBK on January 23, 2018, 08:40:30 PM
Quote from: madbean on January 23, 2018, 08:22:19 PM
I got an email response to my support ticket which confirmed what Josh said, so I'm going to see about getting it set up.

Interesting tidbit from the email:
We also recommend that you call our Tech Support line to speak to an agent who can remote into your computer and guide you through the process.

JFC. I cannot believe they would even suggest that. Who's going to let some IT guy remote into their computer for something like that? No thanks.
All I can think of is the MS tech support scam, which I've read goes something like this once remote access is granted:

*Opens web browser*
*Goes to paypal.com*
"Ok, sir. Now, log into your account."
  ::)
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Haberdasher on January 23, 2018, 08:46:22 PM
Quote from: madbean on January 23, 2018, 08:22:19 PM
I got an email response to my support ticket which confirmed what Josh said, so I'm going to see about getting it set up.

Interesting tidbit from the email:
We also recommend that you call our Tech Support line to speak to an agent who can remote into your computer and guide you through the process.

JFC. I cannot believe they would even suggest that. Who's going to let some IT guy remote into their computer for something like that? No thanks.
The one time I contacted them for support on something about a year ago (for a very simple question, mind you) the tech wanted to remote into my machine "...to make sure you have it set installed correctly".  So evidently that's a big thing with them, & fwiw, I had the same reaction as you.  And anyway, it's not like dazzle is real tricky to install or something,  wtf.  That's like going to see the doc for a sore throat and he suggests a colonoscopy.

Anyway, how do I set it up?  Is it true I have to call them?  I tried this morning and went through their menu for setting it up, but finally had to hang up after 20 minutes.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: madbean on January 23, 2018, 09:28:57 PM
Quote from: Haberdasher on January 23, 2018, 08:46:22 PM
Anyway, how do I set it up?  Is it true I have to call them?  I tried this morning and went through their menu for setting it up, but finally had to hang up after 20 minutes.

You have to set up a new account for some reason, but there is no service fee in addition to the normal monthly one. Here's what they sent me (I haven't done this yet).

Thank you for contacting Endicia Customer Support.

We understand your concerns. Please be advised that this change affecting First-Class International Flats rate class is a direct edict from the USPS and forced upon them by the Universal Postal Union.

The only option you can do at this moment is to create another Endicia account that uses Endicia Multi-rate Service (EMS) so that you can use Global Advantage Program (GAP). Please note that your information on your account will not be migrated over to the second account. Each account is independent of the other. One is your original account and the second is an EMS account that you will use for GAP. The new EMS account will be complimentary and will not charge any service fees.

To get started with creating that second account, please go to:

https://www.endicia.com/resellers/multi-rate-service-signup?id=UBZ3TH7QRILYDBL8
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 23, 2018, 09:53:24 PM
The tech support I talked to was great and got everything rolling.  I don't understand the two accounts thing and why they can migrate them.  I will be checking my credit card closely for additional fees.

FWIW, no one mentioned or suggested remotely controlling my PC (nor would I allow it).

The software is not dazzle and the user interface kinda sucks tbh.  I had a hard time getting my labels to print correctly due to the software defaulting to what your device manager has the label size set at and there is no print preview.

Still waiting to be accepted to the GAP....

Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Haberdasher on January 23, 2018, 11:01:42 PM
Thanks for the info, Brian!
I signed up and installed the software, but I don't see any way of applying for GAP.  I'll probably have to end up calling them anyway.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 23, 2018, 11:02:31 PM
Yes you have to call to activate it.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: somnif on January 23, 2018, 11:05:28 PM
Quote from: madbean on January 23, 2018, 09:28:57 PM
Thank you for contacting Endicia Customer Support.

We understand your concerns. Please be advised that this change affecting First-Class International Flats rate class is a direct edict from the USPS and forced upon them by the Universal Postal Union.

Very interesting, this is the first I've heard that this change was made by the UPU. I had assumed it was the USPS getting screwed over again and having to cut costs (not sure how the change means lower costs, but logic and government agencies rarely end up together).
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: WormBoy on January 24, 2018, 08:32:36 AM
Quote from: somnif on January 23, 2018, 11:05:28 PM
Very interesting, this is the first I've heard that this change was made by the UPU.
I find that hard to believe as this affects US to rest of the world only. The rest of the world can still send PCBs around, across national boundaries, at reasonable rates.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: somnif on January 24, 2018, 08:47:23 AM
This was in an internal document from the USPS back in September:

https://ribbs.usps.gov/intelligentmail_schedule2018/releases/jan2018/docs/Jan2018ReleaseOverview.pdf

"9.0 Limit the Content for First-Class Mail International (FCMI) to Documents

The USPS is considering changes to the International Mail Manual (IMM) and other system language to clarify that First-Class Mail International (FCMI)content is limited to documents in order to prevent mailers from inducting goods or merchandise into the FCMI stream. This change will exclude goods from theFCMI format P (letters) and format G (flats).  This change aligns with the Universal Postal Union(UPU) Integrated Product Plan (IPP) which will require that format P (letters) and format G (flats) may contain only documents, not goods. The requirement to remove goods also applies to International Priority Airmail (IPA)and International Surface Air Lift (ISAL) letter and flat streams as well. The definition of "documents" and "goods" will be updated in the IMM to align with the required UPU changes."

The IPP it mentions: http://www.upu.int/fileadmin/documentsFiles/activities/integratedProductPlan/ippPrinciplesEn.pdf


And reading other reports, it looks like other countries SHOULD also start to follow this protocol. It seems that some countries are exploiting cheap shipping to mess with the markets and blah blah blah. Government speak, gibberish, etc.

Here: http://www.ncsl.org/blog/2018/01/16/please-mr-postman-are-americans-subsidizing-foreign-shipments.aspx

In other words, it all appears to be one bloody mess, and the UPU doesn't hold another congress until 2020, so there is a chance we will be stuck with this crap for another 2 years.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: somnif on January 24, 2018, 08:49:51 AM
In short: Because other countries (China is noted by name) can ship stuff to the US for cheap, US people are less likely to buy from US retailers. So by making foreign buyers unwilling to buy from US retailers, everything will be better!

....Um.

:o
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: WormBoy on January 24, 2018, 01:29:15 PM
Quote from: somnif on January 24, 2018, 08:47:23 AM
This change aligns with the Universal Postal Union(UPU) Integrated Product Plan (IPP) which will require that format P (letters) and format G (flats) may contain only documents, not goods.
Interesting ... that in this respect the US is apparently at the forefront of adhering to international agreements. In Europe, I have not encountered this rule yet. I regularly order components (incl. 3pdt switches and jacks) from Germany, and up to a several hundred grammes they arrive in a letter for about 3 Euro. If that stops, this will become a very expensive hobby indeed ...
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: WormBoy on January 24, 2018, 01:40:23 PM
Quote from: aion on January 23, 2018, 04:45:07 PM
For those of you outside the US, what kind of shipping rates do you typically pay for PCBs when ordering inside of Europe, Australia, etc.?
It is usually weight based, and it is not always clear whether you pay for handling as well. For PBCs/small kits from TH Customs (Germany), I (Netherlands) pay 2-4 Euro (2.45-4.90 USD). FuzzDog (UK) is more expensive with postage; around 3.75-4.50 pounds (5.20-6.30 USD) for 3-5 PCBs and sometimes some small parts. Unfortunately, a large fraction of the nice-PCB-projects-for-DIY-guitarists is located in the US ... Time to move the order processing to Canada or Mexico  ;D.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: madbean on January 24, 2018, 01:48:15 PM
Quote from: gtr2 on January 23, 2018, 11:02:31 PM
Yes you have to call to activate it.

So, I am confused. The email I received said the second/new account is complimentary yet the sign-up says it is a free 30 day trial for Endicia Pro. Did you notice this?
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 24, 2018, 01:55:34 PM
Quote from: madbean on January 24, 2018, 01:48:15 PM
Quote from: gtr2 on January 23, 2018, 11:02:31 PM
Yes you have to call to activate it.

So, I am confused. The email I received said the second/new account is complimentary yet the sign-up says it is a free 30 day trial for Endicia Pro. Did you notice this?

When I talked to tech support he said he was making it free, but I will be watching...
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Haberdasher on January 24, 2018, 02:15:02 PM
Quote from: madbean on January 24, 2018, 01:48:15 PM
Quote from: gtr2 on January 23, 2018, 11:02:31 PM
Yes you have to call to activate it.

So, I am confused. The email I received said the second/new account is complimentary yet the sign-up says it is a free 30 day trial for Endicia Pro. Did you notice this?
Quote from: madbean on January 24, 2018, 01:48:15 PM
Quote from: gtr2 on January 23, 2018, 11:02:31 PM
Yes you have to call to activate it.

So, I am confused. The email I received said the second/new account is complimentary yet the sign-up says it is a free 30 day trial for Endicia Pro. Did you notice this?
Yeah, there was conflicting info in there.  It said there would be no extra fees, $0.00/month, but also said free trial period.  I'm going to address the issue when I call later.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: madbean on January 24, 2018, 02:21:40 PM
Esp. considering the "free month" actually gets charged to you if you stick with the service! G'ah.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gordo on January 25, 2018, 04:28:09 AM
Geez, remember the old days when all you had to worry about was making great boards?
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Freppo on January 25, 2018, 11:45:09 AM
A (going) postal report from Sweden...

* Since I started selling PCB's, little over two years ago, the cost for international letters has raised from 12,50 SEK to 21 SEK. Almost double the cost! The domestic postage has also been raised alot which has made people seeing red...

* At the same time the quality of the post service has gone from good to very bad. Delays/increased shipping times, a much higher % of lost packages, non-working online services, notifications of recieved packages not being sent out, damaged packages and so on.

* Lately I've been getting more and more returns without any obvious reason. Adresses, customs declaration, sufficient postage ect, all checks out.

* Any kind of traceable shipping method has become so expensive so I haven't even bothered adding it as an option in my shop.

* It's actually often much cheaper (the shipping cost) for me to order stuff from other EU countries, than if I order stuff from within Sweden...

* The swedish post (Postnord) has now decided to add a 120 SEK (around 15 USD) cost (a "handling fee") to ALL shipments coming from asia, no matter how small. Every single package will also be charged with 25% import tax. This will force me to raise the cost of the PCB's and it will make shopping from tayda/ebay ect. not longer worth it.

Even though this will have a negative effect on me personally I still think it's a good thing though as it will keep people from buying cheap crap from Wish/Alibaba. Sweden has around 150 000 packages arriving from China every day and I'm sure that kind of shopping is unsustainable for our planet... It's also probably a major contributing factor why the post service has become so poor.

* The swedish people are so unhappy with Postnord that threats and assaults against their employees has become common and someone even made an mobile app called Postmord (post-murder) which is a game where you throw packages until they break (it's pretty funny actually). :P

* Sweden doesn't have post offices... Since Postnord became a privatly owned company (in 1994, before that it was owned by the state) all packages are picked up/sent out at grochery stores and handled by the grochery store employees.

* I live around 20 minutes by car from the nearest supermarket/post. It's a very small town so their opening hours are very limited. All other shipping curiers are too far away so I have no choice but to use Postnord.

Sorry for the long rant...
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Rockhorst on January 25, 2018, 11:55:02 AM
Sweden sounds a lot like the Netherlands, although shipping cost is still very manageable here. Reading all this, it seems a matter of not if but when that's going to change.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Rockhorst on January 25, 2018, 01:37:23 PM
Actually, I'm going to take back my previous statement. After privatizing Dutch postal services in the late 90s (I think) it was a bit of a mess for a decade or so. Lots of name changes, less delivery days, exploiting employees by forcing them to be a small business themselves (sort of subcontracting). But currently, everything seems to be working quite well. The reason for this is that there still is regulatory oversight from the government. Stuff actually got fixed, holes plugged.

Post offices are gone but there's enough small book/office/grocery shops around that can handle the work. Delivery is usually very dependent and prices are reasonable and purely weight based. One thing to note is that the post and package services have split up into two different companies. If Dutch postal services start discriminating between documents and small goods, they would be shooting themselves in the foot, going into another spiral of financial losses. And I think they realize this all too well.

And indeed, I do suspect that if I make a deal with the postal services over here to send a pcb to the States...USPS will have to delivery it. If volumes are big enough, they'll probably start pressurizing other postal companies to follow the same rules...let's see how that pans out in the next couple of years.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 25, 2018, 01:55:52 PM
I still have yet to have my Global shipping option activated.  Looks like I am calling Endicia again today...
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Haberdasher on January 25, 2018, 02:51:13 PM
Quote from: gtr2 on January 25, 2018, 01:55:52 PM
I still have yet to have my Global shipping option activated.  Looks like I am calling Endicia again today...
When you're on hold with these guys, do you get music or a recorded message?  I'm just getting dead silence.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Haberdasher on January 25, 2018, 04:10:35 PM
Finally got through.  They said it would take 24-48 hrs for GAP to activate, and assured me I wouldn't be charged extra.
Fingers crossed!
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 25, 2018, 05:55:27 PM
Quote from: Haberdasher on January 25, 2018, 04:10:35 PM
Finally got through.  They said it would take 24-48 hrs for GAP to activate, and assured me I wouldn't be charged extra.
Fingers crossed!

Are you using Dazzle or Endicia Pro?
I never got an email that it was activated and when I called today they said it had been activated.
Then I was on the line with "tech help" who wanted to remotely access my computer (which I denied) because the new label formatting is cutting parts of the international address.  It's putting the entire international address on just two lines in the tiny SHIP TO: section and then the Postal Processing Facility address is in the normal spot that a domestic package would be.
He was insisting it is my label printer driver, but it prints the same thing on a regular piece of paper.  It truncates the international address...

Then he said just use dazzle, but I don't think you can do the international flats from there.  He said I could...after he said I can't ship merchandise with international flats  ::)  So I mentioned, um...that's why I had to sign up for the global advantage.... I'm super frustrated...

Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Haberdasher on January 25, 2018, 06:52:40 PM
Quote from: gtr2 on January 25, 2018, 05:55:27 PM
Quote from: Haberdasher on January 25, 2018, 04:10:35 PM
Finally got through.  They said it would take 24-48 hrs for GAP to activate, and assured me I wouldn't be charged extra.
Fingers crossed!

Are you using Dazzle or Endicia Pro?
I never got an email that it was activated and when I called today they said it had been activated.
Then I was on the line with "tech help" who wanted to remotely access my computer (which I denied) because the new label formatting is cutting parts of the international address.  It's putting the entire international address on just two lines in the tiny SHIP TO: section and then the Postal Processing Facility address is in the normal spot that a domestic package would be.
He was insisting it is my label printer driver, but it prints the same thing on a regular piece of paper.  It truncates the international address...

Then he said just use dazzle, but I don't think you can do the international flats from there.  He said I could...after he said I can't ship merchandise with international flats  ::)  So I mentioned, um...that's why I had to sign up for the global advantage.... I'm super frustrated...


I'd previously been using dazzle, but understood that I had to sign up for Endicia Pro in order to use the GAP service, so that's what I just set up.  I'm really not sure if the person I spoke with was tech support or not, but I can tell you the acct # she wanted was the new one for endicia pro.
OK, I just tried test printing a label and mine is the same way.  I think that's the way it's meant to be though.  Here's the example label I get in the endicia pro pop up notification.  Is this how your label looks?

(https://s17.postimg.org/5k2dhn7an/Label_Example.jpg)

FWIW, I never got an email either, but it looks like mine is ready to roll right now.  I guess I'm just going to have to try it out and hope for the best...
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 25, 2018, 07:32:50 PM
Yeah, that's how mine is too.

The individual I spoke to really didn't understand anything related to the global postage setup or shipping internationally and it was like he was learning as he went.

I'm assuming it may get relabeled at the postal distribution center?

Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Haberdasher on January 25, 2018, 07:46:21 PM
Quote from: gtr2 on January 25, 2018, 07:32:50 PM
Yeah, that's how mine is too.

The individual I spoke to really didn't understand anything related to the global postage setup or shipping internationally and it was like he was learning as he went.

I'm assuming it may get relabeled at the postal distribution center?


Yeah that's what I'm hoping.  And maybe they have access to the cut off portions of the address you mentioned when they re-print?  Who knows.
I can see there are some annoying things here though.
It looks like there may be 6 lines max for the address? Aand 3 of them have to be entered into the required fields City State and Zip.  So you can't paste the whole address in anymore, and you have to sit there and try to fit portions of the address into those fields that don't make sense for a lot of international addresses.
And another required field is Order Number, which I don't normally use, so I'll have to come up with something there.
Is that what you're getting too, Josh?
They need to update this software soon (I hope).  It sure would be nice if they could make this GAP thing work with Dazzle.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 25, 2018, 09:01:20 PM
Yeah, I was trying verified addresses when the tech was on the phone.  There is no more cut and paste.
He was wondering what was taking so long and I explained they have boxes that won't let you proceed until you get the right combination and each Country is different.  He totally didn't get it...
You can go into preferences and disable the requiring an order number.  I haven't found a workaround for the entry boxes.
Maybe Aion can chime in on how stamps.com is.  There is no way I'm playing multiple guess every international shipment.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: somnif on January 25, 2018, 09:04:35 PM
I find it fascinating how, apparently, this change was meant to stimulate local businesses by making international e-commerce less attractive.

And most of the people I'm seeing screwed over are domestic businesses losing so many of their overseas customers. Its not like I can just go down to my corner PCB store and pick up the newest designs.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: aion on January 25, 2018, 10:33:03 PM
Quote from: gtr2 on January 25, 2018, 09:01:20 PM
Maybe Aion can chime in on how stamps.com is.  There is no way I'm playing multiple guess every international shipment.

I use ShipStation, which is basically a web client for Stamps.com and is owned by them (but also does UPS, Fedex and others).

The transition for flats was literally just that on Sunday, the international labels started printing differently and my costs went up by $2.50 per order. Pretty seamless. Otherwise nothing changed about my shipping workflow.

It's $25/mo, so a little more spendy than the other options, but it saves me tons of time over using the Stamps.com desktop client which was awful. It worked really well out of the box and didn't require much customization at all to get it doing what I want.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 25, 2018, 10:38:48 PM
Thanks Aion.  I may end up going that route in the end.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: BuGG on January 25, 2018, 11:27:45 PM
I'm also using ShipStation,  same thing here... The transition was seamless. 

I too am curious how this is going to affect shipping times and reliability, but so far (aside from the $2.50 increase) everything has sailed along smoothly.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: madbean on January 25, 2018, 11:47:12 PM
It looks like you can integrate ShipStation with Paypal API. So, that might work out for me. $25/month is more than I pay for Endicia but it's a worthy expense if it makes me not have to get on the phone with them. Phones...bah. How quaint.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 26, 2018, 02:43:31 AM
I saw shipstation integrated with woocommerce so I've been working getting everything set up.  Including inadvertently sending emails when I marked old past orders as complete in order to integrate....  (Sorry to anyone that got a random email from an old order!)

Shipstation is so much better, night and day.  Endicia pro was a deal breaker, unfortunately.  I've spent so much time on this issue this week it's ridiculous...

For those interested....both endicia and shipstation go to the same postal processing facility...

Josh
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: BuGG on January 26, 2018, 03:14:25 AM
One good thing about ShipStation is that on a slow month (less than 50 shipments) you can step down to the $9.95 plan, then when you exceed 50 shipments in a month it'll prompt you to upgrade back to standard and pro-rate the monthly fee.  No hassle, quick and easy.

I have it paired with WooCommerce and a Zebra ZP450 printer, shipments couldn't be easier.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: daleykd on January 26, 2018, 04:17:51 PM
Quote from: BuGG on January 26, 2018, 03:14:25 AM
One good thing about ShipStation is that on a slow month (less than 50 shipments) you can step down to the $9.95 plan, then when you exceed 50 shipments in a month it'll prompt you to upgrade back to standard and pro-rate the monthly fee.  No hassle, quick and easy.

I have it paired with WooCommerce and a Zebra ZP450 printer, shipments couldn't be easier.
This entices me as I can't think of a time I had 50 shipments in one month.  However, I use the DYMO LabelWriter 450 Turbo to print out of PayPal.  Kind of frustrating that ShipStation only supports 4" x 6" thermals.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 26, 2018, 04:45:04 PM
You have other options besides thermals.  You use shipstation connect to add other printers.
I use 4x6 thermals so it works out for me, but there may be an option for you.
They are fast on support response.  Very pleased with them so far.
Josh
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: daleykd on January 26, 2018, 04:52:25 PM
Quote from: gtr2 on January 26, 2018, 04:45:04 PM
You have other options besides thermals.  You use shipstation connect to add other printers.
I use 4x6 thermals so it works out for me, but there may be an option for you.
They are fast on support response.  Very pleased with them so far.
Josh
I could just do domestics with PayPal like I have been and just do int'l with ShipStation.  The thermals have greatly reduced my shipping time because there's no more cutting paper and taping to packages.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 26, 2018, 06:31:37 PM
I follow.  You may still be able to use your current printer.  I would contact them and ask.
Yeah, the day I got my label maker I was in heaven for a month...
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 26, 2018, 09:01:34 PM
When I went to the post office they had my stack of international shipments waiting to hand back to me.

I was informed that only a first class package can be used for shipping anything that is not a document in the US.  So using first class flat in the US is a no go as well.

So, as a result, I cannot use the workaround that was given sending to the global parner...

Maybe everyone else will have better success...
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: aion on January 26, 2018, 09:10:21 PM
Quote from: gtr2 on January 26, 2018, 09:01:34 PM
When I went to the post office they had my stack of international shipments waiting to hand back to me.

I was informed that only a first class package can be used for shipping anything that is not a document in the US.  So using first class flat in the US is a no go as well.

That's wrong... your local office must have misinterpreted the new rules. The whole fiasco was caused by the Universal Postal Union which is an international body and only cares about international mail. My understanding was that the USPS was not necessarily thrilled about the idea but decided to concede. It has no bearing on domestic flats, though.

Endicia and Stamps.com are both betting the whole program on domestic flats still being a thing—$2.50 wouldn't cover shipping to the regional center otherwise.

I would contact ShipStation support and see if they can give you some info (i.e. the list of exact changes published by USPS) that you can share with the local post office since ShipStation is more familiar with the rule change. It sounds like your local office needs to properly understand the policy.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 26, 2018, 09:36:26 PM
You may be right and I cannot find anything from restricting anything that isn't a document but unfortunately I'm at the will of the local post office and while I explained they do not agree.

I will contact shipstation and see what they say.  I will need to take a loss and get these orders out in the meantime.

This may be the beginning of the end for pcb wrangling for me.  I can't sustain if I don't have international orders
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 26, 2018, 09:39:35 PM
It has nothing to do with the new rules.  I've run into it before.  They say you cannot ship an envelope with anything in it as an envelope / flat and that it must be a package.  I've also gotten the opposite, that I can't ship it as a package because it's too thin.  It all depends on who is manning it.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: madbean on January 27, 2018, 12:26:28 AM
I've got ShipStation set up and I'm going to mail off something to test the Flats thing from my end. I'll report back soon.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 27, 2018, 03:46:52 PM
I've contacted shipstation, read the guidelines, and talked to two different USPS employees now.

You can't use the US first class flat in the U.S. to send to the processing facility if it contains anything other than documents.  Domestic flats cannot contain anything other than docs.  It has to be uniform, so if it can bend and it's apparent that there is something inconsistent it will not be processed.  The last postal worker recommended placing uniform cardboard on each side of the PCBs to make a consistent envelope.  It won't work for shipping any parts that I sell and she isn't sure if it will even go through or not.

I have a feeling some post offices/workers might just pass them through, but mine does not.  I have yet to try another post office but the main one in my area is less forgiving than the one I always use.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: aion on January 27, 2018, 08:56:53 PM
Quote from: gtr2 on January 27, 2018, 03:46:52 PM
I've contacted shipstation, read the guidelines, and talked to two different USPS employees now.

You can't use the US first class flat in the U.S. to send to the processing facility if it contains anything other than documents.  Domestic flats cannot contain anything other than docs.  It has to be uniform, so if it can bend and it's apparent that there is something inconsistent it will not be processed.

Is that from contacting Shipstation/reading the guidelines, or do you mean that's what both of the postal workers were saying?

I've been using flats within the US for single-board orders for four or five years now... at 1oz it's much cheaper than standard first class, but at 2oz it's pretty much the same so I switch to regular first class at that point.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: lars on January 29, 2018, 04:22:15 PM
To go along with this article, I recently received a junk email offering me a great job! Here is a quote of the requirements:
"Job Responsibilities:
- Process different parcels to your address through postal services
- Browse the number of recent deliveries through a special soft.
- Check the presence of the contents in packages, take photos of the contents and upload them
- Pack boxes again if needed
- Forward the parcels to the final destination, make logos and deliver to the nearest delivery company."

I'm not sure how to process through "special soft" (some kind of jello pudding I guess). Apparently, after I open the parcels and photograph the contents, I can just ship an empty unsealed box, if I want. I do like the last step of randomly making logos and dropping them off at the nearest shipping location. I'm sure FedEx would love my "logos".
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 29, 2018, 05:42:00 PM
Quote from: aion on January 27, 2018, 08:56:53 PM
Quote from: gtr2 on January 27, 2018, 03:46:52 PM
I've contacted shipstation, read the guidelines, and talked to two different USPS employees now.

You can't use the US first class flat in the U.S. to send to the processing facility if it contains anything other than documents.  Domestic flats cannot contain anything other than docs.  It has to be uniform, so if it can bend and it's apparent that there is something inconsistent it will not be processed.

Is that from contacting Shipstation/reading the guidelines, or do you mean that's what both of the postal workers were saying?

I've been using flats within the US for single-board orders for four or five years now... at 1oz it's much cheaper than standard first class, but at 2oz it's pretty much the same so I switch to regular first class at that point.

Both, but the shipstation rep I have emailed with doesn't really understand to be fair.  I think it really depends on who you talk to.

All the USPS employees I have spoken to have said US flats are not for anything other than documents.
If it bends inconsistently or feels like something other than a document it will be rejected.  (this is US only)
I have shipped flats in the US previously for a few random orders (replacements or one offs) but now I cannot get US flats through.

I will travel to the other post office in my area and see what they say next or call USPS directly.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Haberdasher on January 30, 2018, 12:37:25 AM
What size mailer are you using?  It could be that going with a bigger size would make it more "bendy" and therefore easier for a postal employee to forgive.
I'm using #1 poly, fwiw (7.25" x 11.25" inner dimensions).  After it's sealed, the od is more like 8x11.

Another idea is to put them in a mail drop, so you don't have to deal w a postal worker directly.  If you are there in person, it's easy for them to just hand them back to you.  But if back-room sorters have to stop what they're doing to reject something (and possibly fill out some paperwork), they might be more willing push your packages through.  Just a theory, of course.

I mailed 2 on Friday.  I hope I don't get them back, fingers crossed.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: BuGG on January 30, 2018, 01:33:03 AM
Quote from: Haberdasher on January 30, 2018, 12:37:25 AMAnother idea is to put them in a mail drop, so you don't have to deal w a postal worker directly.

This is what I do.... I never could get the clerk to accept a "flat" so I signed up for Stamps.com (now using ShipStation) and I just drop them all in the drop box.    No issues so far and I've shipped hundreds.

I've shipped quite a few since the 21st... None have been returned yet, but it hasn't quite been long enough for any to be delivered either....   Nervous as heck about this new policy.     :o

I'll post back as soon as I have some results, hopefully others will do the same.   

Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: aion on January 30, 2018, 01:59:01 PM
Quote from: Haberdasher on January 30, 2018, 12:37:25 AM
What size mailer are you using?  It could be that going with a bigger size would make it more "bendy" and therefore easier for a postal employee to forgive.
I'm using #1 poly, fwiw (7.25" x 11.25" inner dimensions).  After it's sealed, the od is more like 8x11.

Another idea is to put them in a mail drop, so you don't have to deal w a postal worker directly.  If you are there in person, it's easy for them to just hand them back to you.  But if back-room sorters have to stop what they're doing to reject something (and possibly fill out some paperwork), they might be more willing push your packages through.  Just a theory, of course.

+1 to both of these. That's the exact envelope size I use for flats (domestic and international) - flats actually have a minimum size requirement that is larger than the more standard #0 size. And I drop all mine off in the dropboxes because I've only ever encountered one postal worker who knew about flats at the desk. Never had one returned by the local post office.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: madbean on January 30, 2018, 02:00:56 PM
I did a test: dropped 3 international shipments at once a few days ago, 2 using regular 1st Class and 1 using ShipStation Flats service. Regular 1st Class have already left the country. ShipStation Flats has zero tracking updates - not even a acknowledgement of receipt by my local USPS.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: aion on January 30, 2018, 03:34:29 PM
Quote from: madbean on January 30, 2018, 02:00:56 PM
I did a test: dropped 3 international shipments at once a few days ago, 2 using regular 1st Class and 1 using ShipStation Flats service. Regular 1st Class have already left the country. ShipStation Flats has zero tracking updates - not even a acknowledgement of receipt by my local USPS.

Yep, domestic flats don't have tracking at all actually - they're basically like a stamped envelope. International ones do, though, so I would expect that as soon as the facility relabels them and drops them off, you'll start seeing updates. (at least, until it leaves the country - most destination countries don't have tracking on their end)
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Haberdasher on January 30, 2018, 03:36:32 PM
Quote from: madbean on January 30, 2018, 02:00:56 PM
I did a test: dropped 3 international shipments at once a few days ago, 2 using regular 1st Class and 1 using ShipStation Flats service. Regular 1st Class have already left the country. ShipStation Flats has zero tracking updates - not even a acknowledgement of receipt by my local USPS.
Same with my 2 ShipStation Flats.  There's no bar code on these labels, so they're not getting scanned.  Therefore no updates.
I assume they'll start tracking once lars photographs the contents and repackages them with a customs form and logo. :P
Anyway, I reckon I'll be feeling a bit fidgety until I know they've gone through, and I hope it doesn't take too much longer.  I'm not sure what to think about all this just yet.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: BuGG on January 31, 2018, 12:18:26 AM
Same experience here so far.   Domestic flats have never had any tracking info, despite the bar code.

My international flats do have PDF417 bar codes at the top but my reader doesn't give any legible information so no clue what kind of data is contained in there.

Some were shipped as early as the 22nd, no updates yet.   
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on January 31, 2018, 05:21:59 PM
All my "drop boxes" go to the local post offices that won't accept my "flats".  Drop and pray isn't really a viable way to run a business.

At this point, I've exhausted all my options and contacts.  There is conflicting information and at this point, I can only offer the international package rates.  I apologize to my international friends, it hurts me as much as it hurts you...

On the plus side my international packages have been arriving much faster to there destinations than the previous international flat.

Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: aion on January 31, 2018, 08:25:14 PM
Quote from: BuGG on January 31, 2018, 12:18:26 AM
Some were shipped as early as the 22nd, no updates yet.   

2 out of 16 for me have left the country, but there are some going back to the 22nd that still haven't been relabeled. A few have been acknowledged as received by the facility, but others haven't yet.

I just sent an email to ShipStation to see what the deal is. If this new program adds 8-10 days to the shipping time then I don't know if it's worth the $3 that it saves on shipping.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: BuGG on February 01, 2018, 12:25:46 AM
What sort of packaging are you guys using for your normal First-Class International Package shipments?

My understanding is that a normal padded bubble envelope isn't thick enough to be shipped as a "package"?
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: gtr2 on February 01, 2018, 12:56:18 AM
#2 8.5" x 10", they lay flat and are under the 3/4" requirement, but....if they contain something that doesn't bend or feel like anything but a document they are considered a package as flats are only for documents.  So domestic flats are out and as a result the global processing center.
I am a regular at the post and they already know I ship merch for years so passing a flat is impossible.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: BuGG on February 01, 2018, 02:01:57 AM
Dang man that's bad, Stamps.com (or someone higher up the chain at USPS) needs to address this issue.   The service is clearly being marketed to be used in this way.

I can't pass a flat off at the counter (ever), but I drop them in the drop box right outside the door at the same post office and have never had a problem.

However if this doesn't work out I'm just going to have to start shipping everything as a package.   I don't like it, but what else can you do?

Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Haberdasher on February 01, 2018, 02:54:59 AM
So...I wonder why they didn't make it to where we could mail it to the GP facility as a non-machinable letter in a pre-specified mailer size, then they could label right over it as an international flat with a customs form from there (since they supposedly can make that end of things work via their "exclusive partnerships").  That might have made more sense, and caused fewer problems.  After all, guys like us do NOT have exclusive partnerships, and we're best off following USPS rules, or else be subject to the mercy of random postal workers.

I'm just working off the assumption a non-machinable letter would be accepted nearly every time, while a domestic flat with a rigid object might not.  Or am I missing something?
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: brucer on February 01, 2018, 03:06:33 AM
Quote from: gtr2 on January 31, 2018, 05:21:59 PM
On the plus side my international packages have been arriving much faster to there destinations than the previous international flat.

^This is a definite plus.  I'm in Canada and still waiting on an international flat from lectric-fx that left the US on Jan 15.  Canada Post told me it's surface mail, so is placed in a big room on arrival and waits until they have time to process everything in the room.  A pickguard from Terrapin in Oregon sent by surface mail took 8 weeks to reach me.  Haven't lost a package yet, but the plus on international packages is that they keep moving (less than 2 weeks transit for me) ... though it does come at a premium cost.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: aion on February 01, 2018, 10:50:18 PM
I just got a response from GlobalPost, the company that handles the relays, saying that there was some sort of bug in the system that prevented tracking from getting updated properly, and the fix was deployed today and should be retroactive. I'll check my international tracking tomorrow and see if any of them have been updated.

Being a programmer, I'm a little skeptical when people blame stuff on "a bug"... it usually means that they just don't have their stuff together but it's easier to say it was the computer's fault. But whatever. Happy to have gotten a response anyway.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: EBK on February 01, 2018, 10:56:41 PM
Quote from: aion on February 01, 2018, 10:50:18 PM
Being a programmer, I'm a little skeptical when people blame stuff on "a bug"... it usually means that they just don't have their stuff together but it's easier to say it was the computer's fault. But whatever. Happy to have gotten a response anyway.
The problem could be that an idiot proved that the code wasn't idiot-proof.  I think it is fair to call that a bug.   ;)
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: BuGG on February 02, 2018, 10:35:17 PM
As of today my international flats are no longer going to the New Jersey processing center.

Now they're going to California.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: madbean on February 04, 2018, 02:32:38 AM
It's been over a week since I did my test package to Canada and still not a single update in tracking. I've got two more packages to mail out as a test. So far, I am not impressed. I'm trying to keep positive about this but all the data from this thread seems to indicate there might be no getting around the incredible price increase. I'm still getting international orders but there is a noticeable dip in sales. I feel pretty bad for folks who just want to order a board or two and end up having to pay an equal price in shipping. It's just nonsense. At the same time, a process that is cheaper which results in spotty/no tracking at all is no way to run a business. Rock, meet hard place. This, coupled with the sudden and recent demise of free shipping from my PCB manufacturer is a strong indicator that there are going to be a lot of challenges for MBP going forward.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: alanp on February 04, 2018, 02:51:45 AM
With the rise of eBay, Alibaba, Amazon, small Bean and JMK shops and the like, I'm surprised that int'l shipping hasn't gotten easier with more packages overall moving around.

Oldschool letters (as in written letters, victorian style) dropping like a lead balloon yes, but packages and flats have increased a great deal, surely?
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: somnif on February 04, 2018, 02:59:26 AM
Quote from: alanp on February 04, 2018, 02:51:45 AM
With the rise of eBay, Alibaba, Amazon, small Bean and JMK shops and the like, I'm surprised that int'l shipping hasn't gotten easier with more packages overall moving around.

Oldschool letters (as in written letters, victorian style) dropping like a lead balloon yes, but packages and flats have increased a great deal, surely?

And that is the problem. The UPU has taken the flood of dirt cheap internationally shipped small "packages" as a threat to domestic interests. They see people buying all their stuff from China/etc and came to the conclusion that "oh hey, that money should all be spent in-state, this is getting quite silly" and have taken steps to rectify the matter. (Particularly because that dirt cheap shipping is payed for in a strangely roundabout way such that the recipient country essentially subsidizes the entire shipping cost... sort of. Its a logistical mess)

And since the UPU only convenes every 2 years to make decisions the ramifications are going to suck in the near term.

As much as I hate this, I would honestly suggest every US small business owner who is affected by this nonsense to contact their congresspeople. Our current administration loves to pretend its giving a damn, and touting a "win" for small businesses by ordering the USPS to screw the UPU's rules would be right up their alley. Easy political currency.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: WormBoy on February 04, 2018, 09:01:05 AM
Quote from: somnif on February 04, 2018, 02:59:26 AM
... by ordering the USPS to screw the UPU's rules would be right up their alley.
The rest of world seems to be ignoring those rules anyway. It's only the US screwing their own small businesses as far as I can tell.

Quote from: madbean on February 04, 2018, 02:32:38 AM
... I feel pretty bad for folks who just want to order a board or two and end up having to pay an equal price in shipping.
And ordering 4-5 boards is not going to help. Then you hit an import threshold and have to pay VAT, clearing costs, etc. which will double the entire price again.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Rockhorst on February 04, 2018, 10:00:00 AM
Wormboy is correct I'm afraid. And you also pay the import tax and VAT over the total amount spent, including shipping! So worst case scenario, you end up with PCBs that triple or quadruple in effective price.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: BuGG on February 04, 2018, 12:21:33 PM
Quote from: madbean on February 04, 2018, 02:32:38 AM
It's been over a week since I did my test package to Canada and still not a single update in tracking.

Same here.  Now I have customers emailing me concerned because USPS shows that their package hasn't even shipped. 

It wouldn't be quite as bad if USPS tracking would at least acknowledge that they had received the shipments. 

I'm going to leave the "flat" option open for now, but definitely going to encourage First-Class Package shipping.


Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: diablochris6 on February 04, 2018, 05:17:02 PM
Quote from: BuGG on February 04, 2018, 12:21:33 PM
Quote from: madbean on February 04, 2018, 02:32:38 AM
It's been over a week since I did my test package to Canada and still not a single update in tracking.

Same here.  Now I have customers emailing me concerned because USPS shows that their package hasn't even shipped. 

It wouldn't be quite as bad if USPS tracking would at least acknowledge that they had received the shipments. 

Maybe it's just an international shipping thing, but when I ship a Tayda order through USPS, I don't get any status notifications until the last couple days of shipping when the package hits stateside.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: pickdropper on February 04, 2018, 08:16:58 PM
Quote from: somnif on February 04, 2018, 02:59:26 AM
Quote from: alanp on February 04, 2018, 02:51:45 AM
With the rise of eBay, Alibaba, Amazon, small Bean and JMK shops and the like, I'm surprised that int'l shipping hasn't gotten easier with more packages overall moving around.

Oldschool letters (as in written letters, victorian style) dropping like a lead balloon yes, but packages and flats have increased a great deal, surely?

And that is the problem. The UPU has taken the flood of dirt cheap internationally shipped small "packages" as a threat to domestic interests. They see people buying all their stuff from China/etc and came to the conclusion that "oh hey, that money should all be spent in-state, this is getting quite silly" and have taken steps to rectify the matter. (Particularly because that dirt cheap shipping is payed for in a strangely roundabout way such that the recipient country essentially subsidizes the entire shipping cost... sort of. Its a logistical mess)

And since the UPU only convenes every 2 years to make decisions the ramifications are going to suck in the near term.

As much as I hate this, I would honestly suggest every US small business owner who is affected by this nonsense to contact their congresspeople. Our current administration loves to pretend its giving a damn, and touting a "win" for small businesses by ordering the USPS to screw the UPU's rules would be right up their alley. Easy political currency.

Won't that accomplish the exact opposite?  It's still very cheap and easy to ship packages from China.  Increases the postage costs on outgoing international shipments just makes it harder to export from the US, which won't help with any trade balance.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: somnif on February 04, 2018, 08:25:10 PM
Quote from: pickdropper on February 04, 2018, 08:16:58 PM
Won't that accomplish the exact opposite?  It's still very cheap and easy to ship packages from China.  Increases the postage costs on outgoing international shipments just makes it harder to export from the US, which won't help with any trade balance.

Yeah, hence the selective adoption of the UPU rules does more harm than good. The countries it was meant to "penalize" just ignore it, while the countries which it least affects follow the rules and are screwed over.

Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: pickdropper on February 04, 2018, 08:34:28 PM
Quote from: somnif on February 04, 2018, 08:25:10 PM
Quote from: pickdropper on February 04, 2018, 08:16:58 PM
Won't that accomplish the exact opposite?  It's still very cheap and easy to ship packages from China.  Increases the postage costs on outgoing international shipments just makes it harder to export from the US, which won't help with any trade balance.

Yeah, hence the selective adoption of the UPU rules does more harm than good. The countries it was meant to "penalize" just ignore it, while the countries which it least affects follow the rules and are screwed over.

Indeed.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: aion on February 05, 2018, 02:33:59 PM
So, some stats... out of 27 international orders sent since 1/22 using the flat relay method, 18 of them have been acknowledged by the facility as either 1) received, 2) completed and passed off to USPS, or 3) already having left the country. But 9 of them are still unaccounted for, going all the way back to January 25th.

And since domestic flats don't have local tracking, there's no recourse for proving that it arrived at the relay facility. So if they don't have their stuff together, I probably can't actually pin them down on anything.

I'm going to get in touch with the help and give them another chance to reassure me that this will all work out, but so far I'm not thoroughly impressed.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: BuGG on February 05, 2018, 03:01:01 PM
Out of 44 shipments I have two that have reached the destination country, the remaining 42 are unaccounted for....

I'm a few days away from disabling the flats shipping method, at least until this is sorted out.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: JC103 on February 06, 2018, 01:34:29 AM
Out of curiosity... what would happen if you folks shipped international out of Canada?
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: alanp on February 06, 2018, 04:33:52 AM
Quote from: somnif on February 04, 2018, 02:59:26 AM
And that is the problem. The UPU has taken the flood of dirt cheap internationally shipped small "packages" as a threat to domestic interests. They see people buying all their stuff from China/etc and came to the conclusion that "oh hey, that money should all be spent in-state, this is getting quite silly" and have taken steps to rectify the matter. (Particularly because that dirt cheap shipping is payed for in a strangely roundabout way such that the recipient country essentially subsidizes the entire shipping cost... sort of. Its a logistical mess)

It just struck me what this means.

As well as net neutrality, do we have to campaign for package neutrality?

Their job is to ship the packages according to the level of service the customer paid for. Not to make value judgements about the overall flow of packages. If they fucked up their negotiations regarding international shipping, that is on them, not on their customers.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: somnif on February 06, 2018, 06:32:13 AM
Quote from: JC103 on February 06, 2018, 01:34:29 AM
Out of curiosity... what would happen if you folks shipped international out of Canada?

Shipping US to Canada is still considered international.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: reddesert on February 06, 2018, 09:25:23 PM
I don't think the UPU makes decisions solely based on where people should spend their money or buy local, etc. I think their concern is more about how countries settle up reciprocal shipping costs. I never understood how that was done until reading up on it recently. (Excuse me if I am saying something everyone here knows already.) Basically, when you pay for an international shipment, the money goes to your domestic postal service and the foreign service doesn't get paid directly. Later, the postal services all settle up accounts based on difference in total weight - so if 1000 tons was shipped from China to the US, and 900 tons was shipped from the US to China, China's service pays the US service for the difference, 100 tons of stuff, at some agreed-on rate.

A problem is that not all weight is equal delivery cost. Hypothetically suppose that most of the 1000 tons from China to the US are many small packages weighing 2 oz each like me ordering a Strat jack plate, while the other way is a smaller number of really large packages.  Then the USPS winds up shouldering a larger cost to deliver all those small packages, that it isn't getting adequately reimbursed for.

I think whatever the UPU is doing is eventually intended to address this. I did buy a Strat jack plate from China for $1.29 including shipping, and I think that must be reliant on some artificially-low shipping rate charged in China, while the USPS is essentially delivering it for free over here, and this can't be sustainable. Because I can't even mail a Strat jack plate inside the US for $1.29. It was nice to get a cheapo jack, but at some level it's unfair to both the USPS and US sellers.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: aion on February 07, 2018, 11:40:38 AM
Quote from: reddesert on February 06, 2018, 09:25:23 PM
I think whatever the UPU is doing is eventually intended to address this. I did buy a Strat jack plate from China for $1.29 including shipping, and I think that must be reliant on some artificially-low shipping rate charged in China, while the USPS is essentially delivering it for free over here, and this can't be sustainable. Because I can't even mail a Strat jack plate inside the US for $1.29. It was nice to get a cheapo jack, but at some level it's unfair to both the USPS and US sellers.

"Eventually" is the key word - but since the US agreed to the rules before China did, the balance is off even more than it was before and it makes it even harder for US-based companies to be competitive. So in one sense it actually has the opposite effect. China is still shipping internationally for almost nothing, but it's much harder for US companies to sell internationally. Or even domestically, where we can beat China on transit time but still not price.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: EBK on February 07, 2018, 12:11:36 PM
Is there a reasonable way to have boards destined for Europe to be fabbed and shipped from inside Europe? In the past, that option may have been ignored due to obvious cost issues, but now....
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Haberdasher on February 07, 2018, 12:31:16 PM
The 2 packages I mailed Jan 26th just got marked as "Arrived Shipping Partner Facility" yesterday.  Which probably means they've been sitting in the warehouse with thousands & thousands of others for days & days, and they just got scanned in.  I hope this process gets more streamlined as they work the bugs out.  This is a little bit effing ridiculous.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: aion on February 07, 2018, 03:14:31 PM
Quote from: Haberdasher on February 07, 2018, 12:31:16 PM
The 2 packages I mailed Jan 26th just got marked as "Arrived Shipping Partner Facility" yesterday.  Which probably means they've been sitting in the warehouse with thousands & thousands of others for days & days, and they just got scanned in.  I hope this process gets more streamlined as they work the bugs out.  This is a little bit effing ridiculous.

I just checked again, and of the 9 that had issues two days ago, only 2 of them have been scanned in. I haven't heard back from support on the matter yet, so I resent my email.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Rockhorst on February 07, 2018, 05:13:47 PM
I was thinking about local production for the EU market (I'm in the Netherlands). I haven't fully done the math yet but it could pay off and I'd be willing to cooperate with a US based party. However, you would still be losing some of the profits as it now has to be shared between two companies. Also, customer support might get a bit trickier (who'se responsible for what). I believe Barry from GuitarPCB has an arrangement with das Musikding in Germany specifically for this purpose.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: BuGG on February 08, 2018, 01:42:57 AM
So the majority (but not all) of my shipments now at least show that they have been received by USPS...

Here's the reply I just got from Stamps.com:

QuoteI understand the lack of any tracking events can be alarming. I can see why that would be frustrating, Robert.

Due to extremely high demand brought on by the popularity of the new FCMI Flats for Merchandise service, we are experiencing service delays for some shipments, mostly for flats originating in the Midwest, the South, and the East Coast. If the flat has not been returned to you, then this means that the flat has entered the mailstream. You may see some delays with delivery. However, rest assured that the flat will be delivered. To resolve this issue, we are now routing shipments to alternate facilities with the bandwidth to handle the additional volume.

Additionally, many packages are not receiving the tracking events that are expected for this service. To improve tracking, we will be making changes to the front-end labels that will improve the tracking events. This is expected to deploy on Friday, 2/9/18.

We apologize for the inconvenience this may have caused you and we thank you for your patience as we work through this process.
Title: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: rullywowr on February 08, 2018, 07:12:11 PM
Wow.  Great Info.  I wish I saw this thread a while ago.  Just went through all the same stuff a few weeks back.

I was using Endicia/Dazzle with WooCommerce but now with the changes / I've been forced to upgrade.

I switched to ShipStation/Stamps and after some small issues I got it fully integrated with WooCommerce.  Order fulfillment is easier now, however I feel for international customers who just want to buy a PCB or two.  Shipping prices are exorbitant!  Everything is shipped currently in poly mailers. 

The way I understand it is that the UPU wanted to track actual mail vs packages for better import:export data. I hope this changes back to something more reasonable, however in the meantime it is what it is. 

Just a thought.  If shipping is going to be this expensive maybe there is an opportunity for local PCB manufacturers to take gerbers and orders from sellers and make boards to order.  Kind of like OshPark.  I wonder what OshPark is doing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: BuGG on February 09, 2018, 01:19:56 PM
Alright, my shipments are starting to be delivered.       

They're not arriving in sequential order though.   The same customer had two orders.  The most recently shipped order has arrived, the older one has not.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: Haberdasher on February 09, 2018, 10:15:43 PM
Anyone else getting phone calls from shipstation support?  They've called me twice now.  The 1st time they called (yesterday) I didn't answer and they hung up after 2 rings.  I googled the # and knew it was them.  They called back today and I picked up, but there was no one there.
Probably just a sales call, but I was wondering if anyone else is getting these.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: rullywowr on February 09, 2018, 10:29:55 PM
Quote from: Haberdasher on February 09, 2018, 10:15:43 PM
Anyone else getting phone calls from shipstation support?  They've called me twice now.  The 1st time they called (yesterday) I didn't answer and they hung up after 2 rings.  I googled the # and knew it was them.  They called back today and I picked up, but there was no one there.
Probably just a sales call, but I was wondering if anyone else is getting these.


Not for me.  I didn't know phone support was an option.  Was using email only support when I had a small config issue.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: BuGG on February 10, 2018, 01:40:39 PM
So, as of today the FCMI shipping labels include a domestic USPS tracking bar code.

Maybe they'll actually get scanned into the system properly now.   
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: brucer on February 22, 2018, 04:31:29 AM
It might be small consolation price-wise, but here's my recent experience with USPS international flats vs. 1st Class International:

USPS international flat (UA prefix):

Nothing recorded by USPS or Canada Post since:

January 15, 2018, 12:48 pm
In Transit to Next Facility
The item is currently in transit to the next facility as of January 15, 2018.

January 14, 2018, 12:48 pm
In Transit to Next Facility

January 13, 2018, 12:48 pm
In Transit to Next Facility

January 12, 2018, 5:48 am
Departed USPS Regional Facility
AUSTIN TX DISTRIBUTION CENTER

January 12, 2018, 2:14 am
Arrived at USPS Regional Origin Facility
AUSTIN TX DISTRIBUTION CENTER

January 11, 2018, 2:55 pm
USPS picked up item
MARBLE FALLS, TX 78654

January 11, 2018, 9:57 am
Shipping Label Created, USPS Awaiting Item
MARBLE FALLS, TX 78654 

So, shipped Jan. 11 and currently in limbo.  Transit time: 42 days

First Class International (LZ prefix):

2018/02/21   11:08   SALMON ARM, BC   Delivered to your community mailbox, parcel locker or apt./condo mailbox       
2018/02/21   07:02   SALMON ARM, BC   Item out for delivery       
2018/02/21   06:35   SALMON ARM, BC   Item processed      
2018/02/20   02:54   RICHMOND, BC   Item processed       
2018/02/19   07:29   RICHMOND, BC   Item has arrived in Canada and was sent for further processing.       
2018/02/16   07:44   USMIAA, USA   International item has left originating country and is en route to Canada       
2018/02/13   00:29   37075, USA   International item mailed in originating country

So, shipped Feb. 13 and now delivered.  Transit time: 9 days

2-3 times the cost, but it gets delivered!

Yes, I'll wait until I want few boards before ordering, but I'll get them sooner!
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: daleykd on February 22, 2018, 05:31:00 AM
Quote from: brucer on February 22, 2018, 04:31:29 AM
USPS international flat (UA prefix):

January 11, 2018, 2:55 pm
USPS picked up item
MARBLE FALLS, TX 78654

January 11, 2018, 9:57 am
Shipping Label Created, USPS Awaiting Item
MARBLE FALLS, TX 78654 
Here's what I got out of this: "Hey, my name's Bruce and I live in Marble Falls."  MARBLE FREAKIN' FALLS!

Dude... next time I get a bit of time off, I'm coming to see you.  Then I'm gonna hit up my favorite vineyard, Spicewood.  God, I love Marble Falls.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: brucer on February 22, 2018, 06:17:05 AM
Quote from: daleykd on February 22, 2018, 05:31:00 AM
Here's what I got out of this: "Hey, my name's Bruce and I live in Marble Falls."  MARBLE FREAKIN' FALLS!

Dude... next time I get a bit of time off, I'm coming to see you.  Then I'm gonna hit up my favorite vineyard, Spicewood.  God, I love Marble Falls.

LOL!  Sorry daleykd, the package came from Marble Falls.  I live in Salmon Arm, BC, Canada (https://www.hellobc.com/salmon-arm.aspx (https://www.hellobc.com/salmon-arm.aspx)) where it's -14C/6.8F and there's 2 feet of snow.  We do have wineries, but right now it's all cross-country skiing, snowmobiling and praying for warmer weather.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: daleykd on February 22, 2018, 07:06:54 AM
Quote from: brucer on February 22, 2018, 06:17:05 AM
Quote from: daleykd on February 22, 2018, 05:31:00 AM
Here's what I got out of this: "Hey, my name's Bruce and I live in Marble Falls."  MARBLE FREAKIN' FALLS!

Dude... next time I get a bit of time off, I'm coming to see you.  Then I'm gonna hit up my favorite vineyard, Spicewood.  God, I love Marble Falls.

LOL!  Sorry daleykd, the package came from Marble Falls.  I live in Salmon Arm, BC, Canada (https://www.hellobc.com/salmon-arm.aspx (https://www.hellobc.com/salmon-arm.aspx)) where it's -14C/6.8F and there's 2 feet of snow.  We do have wineries, but right now it's all cross-country skiing, snowmobiling and praying for warmer weather.
So... damn... sad.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: bsoncini on February 22, 2018, 08:01:31 PM
My latest experience. The pcbs just showed up today.

February 17, 2018, 9:25 am
Departed
PARIS, FRANCE
Your item departed a transfer airport in CH. DE GAULLE, PARIS, FRANCE on February 17, 2018 at 9:25 am. The item is currently in transit to the destination.

February 16, 2018, 5:01 pm
Departed
FORT WORTH, UNITED STATES

February 15, 2018, 6:16 pm
Departed
LOS ANGELES, UNITED STATES

February 15, 2018, 12:34 pm
Arrived
LOS ANGELES, UNITED STATES

February 14, 2018, 7:47 pm
Processed Through Facility
ISC LOS ANGELES CA (USPS) 

February 14, 2018, 7:47 pm
Arrived at Facility
ISC LOS ANGELES CA (USPS) 

February 10, 2018, 8:49 pm
Arrived Shipping Partner Facility, USPS Awaiting Item
TORRANCE, CA 90505 

February 3, 2018, 1:20 pm
Shipping Label Created, USPS Awaiting Item
LEESBURG, GA 31763 

All in all. Not so bad 3 weeks. About twice as long as before. But to save on time and money they might not want to ship it all over the country before leaving.  Shipping something from Georgia to California to fort worth to Paris is a weird voyage.
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: imjonwain on February 24, 2018, 02:09:25 PM
I rolled the dice (at the receivers request) and stuck a PCB in a greeting card to France the other day. we'll see if it makes it...
Title: Re: USPS nixing international flats as a shipping method for anything but documents
Post by: ruthlewis on June 18, 2021, 11:47:27 AM
Indeed you are right. It does not seem to me at all normal what happens and does not announce in advance the new rules. They had to promote and say if the rules change about how to order and how many quantities, I always use speedpack tracking (https://www.packages24.com/carriers/speedpak-tracking) as transport is low and arrives very quickly. I don't have to worry about him that there is also a site where you can put the code on the box that should come to you, and you can see exactly where it is. XD