I'm very disappointed by modern flangers.
I built the Mxr and Ehx projects, i bought a MXR reissue, and some digital ones: no one of them sounds appealing to me.
I hear the demos of the old flangers on YT, the ones with SAD1024, and they sound glorious!
The modern ones are just glorified chorus to me.
Digital just doesn't do it for me.
I just hope somebody will remake the SAD BBDs
(i don't know why i wrote this post, i'm just sad after playing )
I like my copy Gaussmarkov Ehx electric mistress with Reticon Sad,
the sound is floating,A/DA Flanger MN3007 is very good but in compared with Flanger with Sad1024
it sounds stiff.
I am looking Pcb for A/DA flanger with Reticon
I wouldn't exactly call the MXR and EHX flangers modern. They're from what? The early 80's? That makes the designs older then probably most members here. They do have the same BBD MN3007 chip though that's in all analog chorus pedals. But to me they sound fine. Too bad I can't seem to build a working flanger. All my flanger builds seem to end up on my fail pile.
Quote from: czapa tranzystor 2 on February 04, 2019, 02:57:02 PM
I am looking Pcb for A/DA flanger with Reticon
Moosapotamus used to have an A/DA based around the reticon, though he swapped over the mn3007 after a while. May still be a few floating around.
Bigger problem is IF you can find a working sad1024 you're probably gonna be paying ~100$ for the chip alone.
I'm a big fan of the Ibanez FL-9 re-issue. Toyed with tracing it, but you can pick them up for buttons so ultimately didn't see the point.
I think it will be similar to the Boss BF-2
We do a pcb for the Ibanez FL99.
https://www.deadendfx.com/product/flange-a-rama
Quote from: somnif on February 05, 2019, 08:43:21 AM
Bigger problem is IF you can find a working sad1024 you're probably gonna be paying ~100$ for the chip alone.
Bingo.
I would say, forget about RETICON based flanging completely, until Xvive, CoolAudio, or Alfa Rpar reissue the SAD chips.
Quote from: pietro_moog on February 03, 2019, 11:00:45 PM
The modern ones are just glorified chorus to me.
I've been saying this about flangers for years. Eventide had it right way back in 1976, and in the user manual for the Instant Flanger FL-201 they stated, "As a practical matter, useful flanging occurs in the delay range of 50 microseconds to about 5 milliseconds..."
I'm running an MN3006 in my Current Lover, and guess what? It actually sounds like a flanger because it's normal operating delay range is exactly within the range stated by Eventide. IMHO, the MN3006 is the best BBD ever made to use for flanging. It has way lower noise than an SAD1024, and does not require a buffer or over-clocking like an MN3007. I think it got a bad rap because the Panasonic spec sheet calls it an "Economy type" BBD. People wanted the MN3007 because it was always touted as "Low-noise (expensive type)", but the MN3006 is a 100% better choice for flanging applications. But as a warning, the MN3006 does not do chorus sounds....but we're not looking for another chorus-sounding flanger, are we?
I think part of the SAD magic was the noise though. I have an old BF-2 but really wanted an A/DA. The Reticon chip produced this thick nasty sound and while it was a pain in the studio it drove an amp nuts in a live situation.
I have a mn3006. It flanges, but like you said, it does nothing more.
Quote from: lars on February 05, 2019, 11:04:35 PM
Quote from: pietro_moog on February 03, 2019, 11:00:45 PM
The modern ones are just glorified chorus to me.
I've been saying this about flangers for years. Eventide had it right way back in 1976, and in the user manual for the Instant Flanger FL-201 they stated, "As a practical matter, useful flanging occurs in the delay range of 50 microseconds to about 5 milliseconds..."
I'm running an MN3006 in my Current Lover, and guess what? It actually sounds like a flanger because it's normal operating delay range is exactly within the range stated by Eventide. IMHO, the MN3006 is the best BBD ever made to use for flanging. It has way lower noise than an SAD1024, and does not require a buffer or over-clocking like an MN3007. I think it got a bad rap because the Panasonic spec sheet calls it an "Economy type" BBD. People wanted the MN3007 because it was always touted as "Low-noise (expensive type)", but the MN3006 is a 100% better choice for flanging applications. But as a warning, the MN3006 does not do chorus sounds....but we're not looking for another chorus-sounding flanger, are we?
If you have a couple of SAD1024's like I do can I just swap out the MN3007 or do some other tweaks have to be made? How about the MN3006 as well? Can I just swap it out for one without additional tweaks?
As far as DIY flanges, I really dig the Lectric Flintlock Flanger
I can dial in just about any flange tone I could possibly ever want. I meant to do a demo on the thing years ago but never got around to finishing it.
This might sound naive (and dumb) but this, i like it
I wish there was a pcb, because the original is not true bypass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u92Vk7FrqS8&list=RDMMu92Vk7FrqS8&start_radio=1
Sounds very much like a Boss BF-2. It also uses an MN3007.
The schematic is much more simple. It sounds better to me
Quote from: TNblueshawk on February 06, 2019, 08:43:34 PM
If you have a couple of SAD1024's like I do can I just swap out the MN3007 or do some other tweaks have to be made? How about the MN3006 as well? Can I just swap it out for one without additional tweaks?
Definitely don't do this. They have different pinouts and numbers of pins, but more importantly they have opposite polarities and you could fry the chip. The MN3007 uses P-MOS devices and requires a negative supply voltage, while the MN3207 and SAD1024 are N-MOS and use a positive supply (but the voltage requirements are different too: the MN3207 wants max +10V and the SAD1024 is supposed to operate off +15V). Someone more expert than me with analog delays, flangers etc will have to tell you more about the differences in clocks, signal filtering, etc, between circuits using the different devices.
Quote from: reddesert on February 09, 2019, 09:44:44 AM
Quote from: TNblueshawk on February 06, 2019, 08:43:34 PM
If you have a couple of SAD1024's like I do can I just swap out the MN3007 or do some other tweaks have to be made? How about the MN3006 as well? Can I just swap it out for one without additional tweaks?
Definitely don't do this. They have different pinouts and numbers of pins, but more importantly they have opposite polarities and you could fry the chip. The MN3007 uses P-MOS devices and requires a negative supply voltage, while the MN3207 and SAD1024 are N-MOS and use a positive supply (but the voltage requirements are different too: the MN3207 wants max +10V and the SAD1024 is supposed to operate off +15V). Someone more expert than me with analog delays, flangers etc will have to tell you more about the differences in clocks, signal filtering, etc, between circuits using the different devices.
Thanks. I figured as much after doing some other reading. Too bad. I have a few chips and now can't locate a project.
It looks like UT Source has lots of MN3006 in stock for less than $4 each. How many changes are required to use these in something like an Electric Mistress or A/DA circuit? I did not know there were BBDs that went down to this few stages!
Quote from: Bret608 on February 11, 2019, 04:11:15 PM
It looks like UT Source has lots of MN3006 in stock for less than $4 each. How many changes are required to use these in something like an Electric Mistress or A/DA circuit? I did not know there were BBDs that went down to this few stages!
Nada for it to work, in fact you wouldn't even need the 4049 any more if you didn't want it (shouldn't hurt to keep it though) however while it certainly provides a shorter delay time (which is a personal preference thing) it isn't going to sound more like a SAD1024, there's more than the delay time that goes in to making a flanger.
It does have better high frequency response (and better noise and distortion specs to boot, although the SAD had pretty poor ones which attribute to its 'sound') than a MN3007 though, sadly the datasheets don't contain any information on gain vs. clock frequency so it may or may not be great regarding the mix at higher sweeps. It looks like it has less gain than the 3007 in general though so for something like the mistress with no BBD gain level adjustment you'd probably need to tweak the mixing resistors to get a 50/50 mix for the best flange sound.
I question if in an A/DA the sweep will be that audible at high frequencies, with the original clock frequencies you're going to be hitting 0.09mS instead of the original 0.4mS, that's incredibly short but I have never delved in to what's perceptible. Perhaps a 3009 would be a better compromise if that's the case, although that clock vs. gain on that is substantially worse than a 3007.
Oh and a heads up, while I'm sure there's a fair few MN3006 still out there as its one of the lesser demanded chips, UT are not immune to shipping fakes.
Thanks, Scruffie! I was curious after seeing you and Lars discuss this a few years back, but couldn't remember the details. I appreciate the heads up on UT Source as well...I haven't ordered from them and was wondering if the relatively high in-stock numbers they report are a bit too good to be true.
Quote from: TNblueshawk on February 06, 2019, 08:43:34 PM
If you have a couple of SAD1024's like I do can I just swap out the MN3007 or do some other tweaks have to be made? How about the MN3006 as well? Can I just swap it out for one without additional tweaks?
I can see you're very determined to use these in a flanger so yes if you use a little perf or vero daughterboard you could use one.
It is going to be different for each project though, I started to write an explanation of everything you needed to pay attention to but even I started to get lost trying to cover every eventuality ;D so you'd need to pick something first.
I actually wouldn't mind a project for one my self to save me having to open a working pedal every time I want to quickly test one... ???
Quote from: Scruffie on February 11, 2019, 05:55:36 PM
Quote from: TNblueshawk on February 06, 2019, 08:43:34 PM
If you have a couple of SAD1024's like I do can I just swap out the MN3007 or do some other tweaks have to be made? How about the MN3006 as well? Can I just swap it out for one without additional tweaks?
I can see you're very determined to use these in a flanger so yes if you use a little perf or vero daughterboard you could use one.
It is going to be different for each project though, I started to write an explanation of everything you needed to pay attention to but even I started to get lost trying to cover every eventuality ;D so you'd need to pick something first.
I actually wouldn't mind a project for one my self to save me having to open a working pedal every time I want to quickly test one... ???
Yeah man, don't waste your time typing anything out for me as I may never build one! I hate to just let these things die on the vine so I'll keep trying.