So...
I saw this on Facebook this morning: http://www.tcelectronic.com/flashback-x4-delay.asp (http://www.tcelectronic.com/flashback-x4-delay.asp)
My first response looking at it was... "Wait, didn't Line 6 do this very same thing like 15 years ago?"
Jacob
I think this is going to be better than the DL-4...as it should be since it's a decade+ newer.
I'm not buying any more of their Toneprint stuff until they release a software editor. It's got to happen at some point.
Vox did a similar thing recently as well. Clearly everyone wants a piece of the multi-delay pie.
I've never played one but the only bad thing I've heard about DL-4s were reliability & footswitch issues. I like what I've heard and bands that I love use em.
When you think about it, the flashback was kind of rehashing the echo park. I think everyone (Vox, JHS, TC) is stepping up their delay game to compete with Strymon
I repaired a DM4 faulty footswitch. It's just like the DL4.
They are set up odd. The footswitch itself is actually not a switch at all. It's spring-mounted plunger that taps on a momentary tactile switch mounted on the PCB. Eventually the plunger wears out and doesn't hit the tactile anymore. And you can't buy those pluger-switch things anywhere that I know of.
So what I did was desolder/remove the tactile switch and just mounted a standard SPST momentary footswitch on the enclosure. I wired the footswitch in the same manner the tactile was. And it worked great.
Oh man I am totally into it. I love the DL-4 but really dislike certain aspects of it. Overall the sound is cloudy, etc.. I love the ease of use and preset ability. Looper is great and easy to use. It really is a good product. Lazy as hell of them to not update it ever though IMO.
I am also a big looping fan- I have Jam Man (orig w maxed zip dimm chips or whatever), Echoplex digital pro, Eventide Timefactor, etc.
If it did same thing as DL4 but with better sound and some tape-like adjustment abilities (TimeFactor is awesome at this- octaves, 5ths, 7ths, smooth- all non destructive and just like tape) I would be sold.
I am on list for couple of these also so me and a bandmate can make synced loops. You can have either one be master without having to touch them- so either one of us could start a loop and the other can make synced loops afterwards.
http://www.gearjunkies.com/news_info.php?news_id=4621
C
I have used these for years and a friend also. All I ever had to do was solder a power jack once and as for the switches, just stretching the spring out a bit was all it ever took to get them operating like new again.
C
Quote from: culturejam on September 20, 2012, 07:54:05 PM
I repaired a DM4 faulty footswitch. It's just like the DL4.
They are set up odd. The footswitch itself is actually not a switch at all. It's spring-mounted plunger that taps on a momentary tactile switch mounted on the PCB. Eventually the plunger wears out and doesn't hit the tactile anymore. And you can't buy those pluger-switch things anywhere that I know of.
So what I did was desolder/remove the tactile switch and just mounted a standard SPST momentary footswitch on the enclosure. I wired the footswitch in the same manner the tactile was. And it worked great.
I'm sure it will be 'better' than the DL4 was/is, but it's not that much of an update. Truthfully, it doesn't compete with the Timeline or Timefactor for me.
Think about it:
3 presets plus a tap switch (same as the DL4)
About 16 types of delays (Same as the DL4)
It's about the same size, weight and configuration as the DL4)
Built in looper (Same as the DL4)
Stereo in, Stereo out, plus an expression in/out
But it does have (over the DL4)
Midi in and thru
Toneprints
...
That's it really. Obviously you're getting the TC Electronic take on delay algorithims instead of Line 6, I just think that these guys didn't think this through enough! There's no banks of delay patches, there's nothing mindblowing or revolutionary... all for the same price.
I say, if you're going to get into the game, at least do something new or set yourself apart.
Jacob
You make some good points. Surprising no banks or user presets.
As for MIDI, my biggest frustration w Timefactor is MIDI is irrelevant in loop mode which was =almost= a deal breaker for me once I discovered it. If the X4 is able to make a loop conform to incoming MIDI clock or send MIDI clock based on loop you create that will be a plus for me.
Sound quality alone could be worth the upgrade for some, I know when I got the TF I was so relieved to hear things clearly and without all that cloudiness I get from DL4.
C
Quote from: jkokura on September 20, 2012, 08:11:39 PM
But it does have (over the DL4)
Midi in and thru
Toneprints
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on September 20, 2012, 08:11:39 PM
Toneprints
To be fair, this is a ridiculously powerful advantage, especially now that you can beam toneprints into the pedal through your guitar strings with your phone. This is almost like having midi-accessible delay plugins for live sound, potentially enabling a guitarist to use the "perfect" sound for each song. You don't need banks of patches if you can set up your set list on a mobile device and work through them in seconds.
This won't be fully realized without the software editor, though. ;) I think if they did release a software editor they'd destroy a lot of competition, but let's not forget that limiting access allows them to sell expertise; once you get to editable software, R&D costs can't be justified to buyers and all the past money spent goes down the drain. It's reasonable from a business perspective, but frustrating for the way it limits the potential of their own technology and damaging in the long term. Eventually someone else will capture this part of the market. "Protecting" is always a losing business strategy compared to innovating.
Certainly, I recognize the Algorithms are likely much better. But quite frankly, I've been reading around that people have been waiting and asking for this from TC Electroic. It seems like such a let down to those who wanted more (to my mind) compared to what's been available for years already. Banks and presets aren't that much harder to do than Toneprints, and if the price point was 25-50 bucks more because of it, it'd be a no brainer.
The Mobile phone thing is cool yes, but is it actually useful for a gigging musician or is it a bedroom trick? And yes, software could change the game, but it's still not gonna make me excited - I'd still want/need more than they're offering here.
What I will admit that is for the average kid out there looking for a new/first delay tool, this is awesome. Not much more than a Boss DD7, same price as a DL4. More options than the former, sounds better than the latter. Plus, all those teens obsessed with their cells are in heaven.
Excuse my cynicism, I'm a bit of a critic I guess. I got cynical with TC when they started releasing 'special ambient' versions of the Flashback/Reverb pedals. The artist versions of their pedals also seem gimmicky to me. It's like they have the 'danelectro' side to their company with these pedals, but the real side to the company is still putting out the G-series stuff for real gigging musicians.
Jacob
I'm with you Jacob, I think toneprints are a gimmick currently. An in-depth editing mode on a computer or within the pedal would make an amazing delay.
ps: imo danelectro are awesome! their products are cheap but quality. I have the Daddy-o overdrive and it's pretty underrated. a Guvnor for 15-30 bucks!
The separate loop/delay sections w/ independent volumes is cool, and the toggle to get in and out of loop is cool too. Undo on loop is cool. 40 secs full res is cool. BUT, not seeing any reverse or half speed. Pfft. Man, 2 steps forward one step back. Or 2 steps forward, 2 steps back.
:)
Quote from: Om_Audio on September 20, 2012, 08:00:21 PM
just stretching the spring out a bit was all it ever took to get them operating like new again.
When I got the pedal, the whole footswitch had been removed. So I had to do something. ;)
:o
I think that a real dealmaker for the Toneprint thing could be... let's call it a Stompomatic.
Instead of beaming your toneprint into your TC delay, you zap it into the Stompomatic, on stomp 1, bank 1. You have a couple other settings you heard were good that apparently Jimi Hendrix and EVH used, so you put them on stomps 2 and 3. Then you put the boring old settings you always settle for on 4.
Plug the Stompomatic before the TC pedals, and the TC pedals will intercept signals from it for switching (maybe they can go at 100kHz or something, I don't know), rather than mucking around with telephones held to the guitar. And having the Stompomatic as a separate stomp would mean having the preset toneprints for ANY TC pedal you have, rather than one TC pedal with a bunch of settable presets.
Probably a stupid idea.
Here is my take, as I own both a Timefactor and a Flashback -
On the Timefactor, I only really use 3-5 presets. I also have an external switch to bank down/tap/hold. I never really use the hold function. I love that I can dial in a lot of the parameters of the repeats - bass cuts, just how low fi the sound is, blah blah blah. My main issue with it is that, with the external switch, it just takes up a lot of space on the board. I don't use loopers, so that isn't really important to me.
If the V4 can hold 3 presets with a mechanism to bypass the presets and use the values on the dial (to me that is a like to have), I think it could address a market very strongly. If the retail price is under $240, they will sell like hotcakes. I have a handful of Toneprints that I really like to the point that I would happily trade a few slots on the Flashback that I don't use for extra toneprint slots (for example, I never use reverse).
I agree...
I sold my Timefactor because it was OVERKILL. :) I only used 4 presets.
I disagree with T.C. releasing multiple versions of the flashback like they did but this seems like a step in the right direction.
With a price point around $250 it will be very popular. Believe it or not the DL4 is still one of Line 6's best sellers. I wonder if Line 6 will have a revised DL4 or just rest on the M9 and M13 series...
Josh
I think it looks pretty dang cool personally.
I have heard good things about the Toneprint delay too.
The multiplex might meet some of these needs for me. :-*
Quote from: atreidesheir on September 21, 2012, 04:50:15 PM
The multiplex might meet some of these needs for me. :-*
lol,
well the multiplex is definitely lofi compared to the tc :D
I guess I'm in the minority. I don't see that the X4 is a big enough step up from the DL4, and I think TC (who definitely have the ability) could have given their customers more. Maybe I'm just cranky.
Jacob
Sadly, I think I have a bit of "glad for whatever we can get" attitude after so many years of gear coming out and always having some glaring omission or baffling design choice that bums me out. It certainly is no excuse to expect more from manufacturers. I always get my hopes up so high only to be let down in some way. The TimeFactor for example -finally- was a pedal that could speed warp delays/loops like my old RDS-8000 (like tape) and not go all digital crazy, but then the power connector is flaky and there is no MIDI of any use in loop mode. And it put my wallet in a headlock!
I agree the TC box is lacking in some surprising ways- reverse, etc.
What is even worse is when they release a new version of something and add things you love but remove things that were fundamental in liking it in the first place.
Fender has a cheap practice amp with a super intuitive looper. The new model is better in every way- new features, better sound, same price BUT they ruined the one feature I liked best about it and made the looper useless. Grr.
Anyway, it IS very easy to get cranky when it comes to gear makers!
At least there are things that I love fully. My Zombii, Macheen, Voodoo pedal power, '74 Gibson, SansAmp Acoustic DI, Neve preamps, etc. So nice to have those things you love fully and do everything you want them to and do it well.
C
Quote from: jkokura on September 21, 2012, 06:14:31 PM
I guess I'm in the minority. I don't see that the X4 is a big enough step up from the DL4, and I think TC (who definitely have the ability) could have given their customers more. Maybe I'm just cranky.
Jacob