Brian or anyone else -- what's the reason the taptation won't work with these? My understanding is that the taptation chip controls a digipot, which gets treated like a 100K pot. There's still only one variable resistor here.
Or am I misremembering and it's compatible, but nigh-impossible to fit in a 1590BB? :)
Edit: I suspect it has something to do with the modulation ...
Don't get it but experienced it with the echo base. I added some tap temp chip and it killed the modulation.
The tap tempo works though.
I haven't examined the schem yet. I'll let you know soon Jon.
Jacob
i think the modulation could work with the taptation, the only thing modulation it does is varying the voltage that goes into the time pot, if you substitute the pot with the taptation pot it should act the same way, just have to connect the oscilator (modulation exit) to the new pot.
i never tried it, but it makes sense in my head, probably i'm wrong...=)
but in the case of the zero point sdx, what i don't know, because of the dual pt2399 and the double bc550 is how you can connect the taptation to pin 6 of the chips and if it's possible.
....humm...just read the taptation datasheet and the way i sugested isn't going to work i think, cause when you tap the tempo (clock imput) the time pot is ignored (tempo voltage imput) and only comes active again when it changes for more than 5%, what it looks that would be a problem if there is voltage oscilation in there (modulation). the good thing is that the taptation chip has a modulation output(pin6 tempo PWM output) feature included...
Ok. I took a preliminary look at the ZP schems. Here's what I think:
1. ZP Mini I think it will work fine - but you will loose the mod and rate functions in board the ZP board. Not a problem, just use the Modulating Taptation board. Not the same modulation, but it gets the job done.
2. ZPDD and ZPSD may work. Unlike the multiplex which has the PT2399 in parallel, the ZP chips are in series, and there's a single delay point. Really, it's just a digital pot instead of a true analog pot, so there's no reason for it not to work. However, like with the mini, you may loose the onboard modulation.
I have a ZPSD on the way. I wasn't planning Taptation implementation on mine, but I could test it if desired.
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on January 25, 2013, 12:39:22 AM
I have a ZPSD on the way. I wasn't planning Taptation implementation on mine, but I could test it if desired.
I'm ordering some tt boards soon, but you'll probably be able to get to it before I do. :)
Quote from: midwayfair on January 25, 2013, 12:49:15 AM
Quote from: jkokura on January 25, 2013, 12:39:22 AM
I have a ZPSD on the way. I wasn't planning Taptation implementation on mine, but I could test it if desired.
I'm ordering some tt boards soon, but you'll probably be able to get to it before I do. :)
Depends on if you already have the taptation chips already. I have several sets, mostly for my production stuff, so it'll be easier for me to do. However, it may take me some time to even get my zero point built. And I'm also a little hesitant, because I like my builds to be perfect, so I don't want to ruin the zero point board I ordered and have to order another one...
But that's selfish, so I'm willing to try it.
Jacob
I've got plenty of ZP builds and my own TT little setup so I can work it out here in a few days, too. My guess is the current mirror on the ZPSDX or ZPDD could be altered enough to be made to work with TT. It's just something I never got around to exploring.
Quote from: jkokura on January 25, 2013, 04:33:08 AMI like my builds to be perfect
... I have no such qualms, so I don't mind doing the experimentation. :)
Quote from: madbean on January 25, 2013, 12:35:53 PM
I've got plenty of ZP builds and my own TT little setup so I can work it out here in a few days, too. My guess is the current mirror on the ZPSDX or ZPDD could be altered enough to be made to work with TT. It's just something I never got around to exploring.
I'm sorry it's a little off topic, but i remember you installed a tap tempo chip on your echobase. Did you loose the modulation as well?
So after taking a look at the Zero Point Deluxe schematic a bit and the Taptation docs, I think the general idea would indeed be to replace the delay pot with the digital pot on the taptation setup.
We'd need to make sure that PA0 goes to pot pad 1, PW0 to pad 2, and PB0 to pad three. We'd also do whatever it is in the taptation that removes the taptation handling the modulation.
Anyone else want to confirm this?
Anyone had a chance to take a look at this stuff?
Yep.
It won't work as you're suggesting. What you're suggesting is putting the output of the digital pot in as the expected 'analog' pot. The taptation doesn't work like that - it needs a clock input, which is supposed to be connected to the clock output (Pin 6) of the PT2399(s). Because lug 3 of the delay pot, in this instance, is the clock output, what you're suggesting is to connect the output of the digital pot to the output of the PT2399 clock. Out > Out doesn't work. You need Out > In.
So, with that in mind, completely removing the modulation of the Zero Point is a feasible solution. Essentially, what I'm imagining needs to be done is to remove everything to the right of the 'MOD' switch on the ZPSDX. Go from the Delay Pot Lug 3 pad to the Pin6 input on the taptation, and you should be good to go. Want modulation still? Build your taptation with the modulation circuit - yes you lose the rate control, but it's still something more that you'd usually get.
Truthfully though, I wouldn't go this route at all. Much more reasonable would be to design a new PCB that follows the key structure of the Zero Point Delay but utilizes the Taptation features.
Jacob
And that's possible, but I was staying away from it since you are offering a slew of TT type projects. I think the best candidate of the current crop is the ZPDD...the double delay, since it has no modulation to start with. But, really, if tap tempo is the most important feature a person is looking for then the Zero Points may not be the ideal project. The ZPs are about including other features that have not been in PT2399 projects before, like multiple filters, double delay in a 1590B, etc.
I will, however, be working on a tap tempo analog delay. Or, at least integration to the Aquaboy, etc.
Quote from: madbean on January 28, 2013, 11:47:57 PM
I will, however, be working on a tap tempo analog delay. Or, at least integration to the Aquaboy, etc.
And that is much more interesting to me.
Jacob
Quote from: madbean on January 28, 2013, 11:47:57 PM
I will, however, be working on a tap tempo analog delay. Or, at least integration to the Aquaboy, etc.
*twitch twitch*
p.s. I never meant for it to sound like I was begging for tap tempo on this project or even looking to add it to the deluxe. I was more interested in whether the current mirror was the problem or the modulation.
I've picked up some digipots and a couple tap tempo chips for experimentation, and one thing I've been amazed by is the community's reluctance (mine, too, I guess) to build with multiple PT2399s in series when they have the same "clean" delay length as an analog chip, which everyone seems content to use multiples of. So this was kind of being filed away for future reference.
Thanks for the feedback guys, but I don't think I articulated what I was going for very well, I'm sorry. Let me try this one more time (again, sorry):
As stands now, the Taptation boards wouldn't work because they're setup to simply feed the digital clock through the SPI-controlled pot setup as a variable resistor. I understand why this won't work.
The question I had was more along the lines of designing my own PCB that uses the Taptation micro controller and the SPI-pot but that only uses the pot as a in-line replacement for the other one (thus feeding the modulated 5v stuff into the BJTs that control each PT2399's pin 6 path to ground).
I realize that this might not be the best, and I might be better of designing something from the ground up, or just going after a production pedal with tap tempo, I just like the idea of doing what would be tricky to do, and it seemed feasible to me to special-purpose the SPI-pot to sit in the circuit as a simple pot ONLY.
I hope that was a little clearer? Let me know what you guys think! :)
That makes more sense.
I think what would make more sense would to just go the simple route and use the modulation already built into the taptation. It's really quite musical, and there's nothing wrong with it.
I think your method would work, and may even be valid, but it seems like you're hatching an egg to raise a chicken to get an egg to make your breakfast, when you already have an egg in your hand...
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on January 29, 2013, 05:09:18 AM
That makes more sense.
I think what would make more sense would to just go the simple route and use the modulation already built into the taptation. It's really quite musical, and there's nothing wrong with it.
I think your method would work, and may even be valid, but it seems like you're hatching an egg to raise a chicken to get an egg to make your breakfast, when you already have an egg in your hand...
Jacob
Haha! That's an awesome analogy. :) I totally agree. I just really miss having a good tap tempo delay. If this delay is nifty, I figured it be nice to have tap tempo. I've always been more a rhythmic delay kind of guy, the long ambient stuff is less accessible to me...which probably means I need to buck up and build this thing as intended and take it from there.
It's decided. I'll build it as the good Brian intended. :)
I'm really interested in adding tap tempo using a Taptation chip set to the ZPDD. If someone works out the details of how to do this, please let me know.
Thanks
8)
I can look into that today, I think.
I'd still be interested too! :)
Just curious (anxious is probably more like it ::)) if anyone has had a chance to look into using the Taptation with the ZPDD? I've got the Zero Point DD next up in my building queue.
I'll second that curiosity...anyone had the chance to take a look at getting the taptation into the ZPDD? I'm looking to add a tap tempo delay and I love the feature set of the DD.
Honestly, I think everyone's best bet if they want tap tempo with a dual-chip delay is to wire up a daughter board for a second digipot and sync the tap clocks. Then hook both digipots up to the pin 6s and omit the modulation and current mirror circuitry. Tayda carries the digipots now, for like $1, so it's not an expensive addition.
Pardon my thick-headedness, just trying to wrap my mind around the thing...
You're talking about syncing two digipots to one taptation chip, correct? If we're doing that what wouold be involved in getting both digipots running off the single taptation? At the risk of sounding foolish, it's not as simple as hooking both digipots (pins 1,2,3) up to the same spot on the taptation chip (pins 8,9,10) is it?
If I had the parts in front of me I would just jump in and try it, but I haven't ordered the tap stuff as I'm not sure if it will work the way I hope. The input we've received on this so far is definitely appreciated.
Quote from: steveperiod on March 13, 2013, 06:49:51 PM
Pardon my thick-headedness, just trying to wrap my mind around the thing...
You're talking about syncing two digipots to one taptation chip, correct? If we're doing that what wouold be involved in getting both digipots running off the single taptation? At the risk of sounding foolish, it's not as simple as hooking both digipots (pins 1,2,3) up to the same spot on the taptation chip (pins 8,9,10) is it?
If I had the parts in front of me I would just jump in and try it, but I haven't ordered the tap stuff as I'm not sure if it will work the way I hope. The input we've received on this so far is definitely appreciated.
Chain clock outputs to clock inputs and it will sync the digipots.
Read 3.7 in the datasheet:
http://www.taydaelectronics.com/datasheets/A-928.pdf
Ah, I see. i was looking at the wrong digipot chip (MCP41100 instead of the MCP42100). I'm still looking through the datasheet, but would there be a reason both pots on the MCP42100 couldn't be used instead of chaining to another digipot chip? Again, apologies for the any dumb questions.
Quote from: steveperiod on March 13, 2013, 10:02:26 PM
Ah, I see. i was looking at the wrong digipot chip (MCP41100 instead of the MCP42100). I'm still looking through the datasheet, but would there be a reason both pots on the MCP42100 couldn't be used instead of chaining to another digipot chip? Again, apologies for the any dumb questions.
not sure. I haven't messed with them much, just enough to know that it works to daisy chain them.
I'm not sure it would be that simple, if it really is SPI output passed through the chip, you might still have to fiddle with the CS, and if the microcontroller expects an acknowledgement, you'd be out of luck.
I emailed the Tone God a while ago, be we heard anything back from him... :(
The idea of a longer "clean" delay time interests me... on the ZPDD, with the PT2399's in series, has anyone worked out what mods would need to be made to the mirror circuit connected to the pin 6's to connect to the TapTation "pin 6" pad? I've considered buying a ZPDD and a TT daughter board and just diving in, but I'd love to hear that someone else has tested it first. LOL
If someone wants to donate a taptation kit, I'll gladly try it out. ;)
What I was going to try, to get tap on the ZPDD, was to omit the current mirror section and build up the taptation circuit using a MCP42100 digital pot instead of the MCP41000.
I'm curious what would happen if you fed the tap signal into the mirror array... would you get essentially double the delay that your tap indicated because each chip would be delaying your signal by the amount set by the tap switch?
I''m not sure if you could feed it into the mirror, the taptation circuit is controlling resistance to ground basically, where the mirror is actually controlling the current into pin 6.
I still want to sub out the standard PCB that everyone uses for the taptation (pin 6 through digipot to ground) and make one that allows for an exact swap out of the delay time pot instead.
Is anyone familiar with using a MCP42100? From the datasheet (http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/268/11195c-64695.pdf), it looked like it was a good solution for adding tap tempo to ZPDD, but I'm hitting a snag where the delay is stuck on medium delay regardless of delay pot or tap tempo setting. Based on the tempo led, the taptation side is working correctly, but does not change the actual delay length.
The MCP42100 appeared to be basically the same as the MCP41100 except with a second digital pot section and reset shutdown pins. Anways, I think the reset shutdown pins are where I'm going wrong, but I'm not sure what needs to be done to fix it. Right now I both reset & shutdown pins connected to nothing.
Any thoughts?
Yes. I'm ahead of you. I had a 42100 arrive in the mail, and I'm getting close to having the time to do some testing.
Jacob
QuoteYes. I'm ahead of you. I had a 42100 arrive in the mail, and I'm getting close to having the time to do some testing.
Jacob
Great Jacob, glad someone with some smarts is looking into this.
A heads up, I think I messed up my MCP42100 chip by letting the shutdown/reset pins float instead of hooking them up to the 5V.
-Jason
Hello,
I am a beginner in electronics so sorry in advance if my solution is stupid.
I looked at the diagrams of the TT and the ZPSDX and I concluded that:
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3739/zeropointsdx2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/zeropointsdx2.jpg/)
What do you think of this?
I have not tried the ZPSDX so I do not know if the modulation section sounds so good but the alternative already proposed by jkokura (using PWM modulation and deleting modulation part, so use the modulation of TT) would the simplest solution.
Thanks
I think you're going to have to remove the entire current mirror section, including the transistors and resistors you have highlighted in blue.
The way I got the Taptation working with the Zero Point DD, was to hook each pt2399 pin 6 up to it's own MCP41100 and then running them in parallel into the Taptation. I didn't experiment thoroughly with the modulation under this setup, but I did seem to have it working with two individual mod paths running from the MCPs in parallel to Taptation pin 6, being controlled at the same time with a dual pot.
I'm taking the plunge and going to play around with Taptation for the ZPDD.
Jasonstomps, do you have a schematic (or could you pretty please draw one) for the exact setup you're talking about? Did you take the MCP41100 and use them to control pin6 to ground, ala the standard Taptation docs (I'm guessing they'd go in place of the transistors controlling the pin6 to ground)...?
You just put the MCP41100 chips in parallel so they'd both take the SPI commands at the same time...?
Here's a crude schematic of what I did. Removing all components attached to both pin 6s on the zero point schematic. Now for mine, for whatever reason, I need to put 3.6k resistors between the MCPs and pin 6s to get the tempo LED to sync up with the actual repeats.
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd172/jasonsguild24/TaptationZeroPointDD_zps64e96540.jpg)
Awesome, great to know! Thanks for sharing the info! I'll post back with my findings myself (I'm going to try a slightly different approach of simply replacing the delay pot itself with the digipot and see what I get)
Did you have any trouble with the digipot being 100k and the ZPDD's delay pot being 50k per the spec? Any weirdness there?
Quote from: neiloler on May 29, 2013, 03:18:41 PM
Did you have any trouble with the digipot being 100k and the ZPDD's delay pot being 50k per the spec? Any weirdness there?
The Taptation handles this part with the doubletime switch.
I was jus reading about that in the docs as well, thanks for point that out.
For you guys that have used the Taptatiin before, has it been tough/fickle/sensitive/etc to get in accurate timing of the taps compared with the actual rhythm tapped in on the momentary stomp switch? I know the documentation said it was luckily more noticeable with lots of delay repeats, but I've never heard any complaints about this before.
Yes, yes I have had that problem.
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on May 29, 2013, 03:41:37 PM
Yes, yes I have had that problem.
Jacob
I experienced this on regular TapTation builds when using "clickless" momentary stomp switches, but when I switched to using the momentary switches that click, it seemed to read the time very accurately.
Quote from: sdb guitars on May 29, 2013, 04:49:13 PM
Quote from: jkokura on May 29, 2013, 03:41:37 PM
Yes, yes I have had that problem.
Jacob
I experienced this on regular TapTation builds when using "clickless" momentary stomp switches, but when I switched to using the momentary switches that click, it seemed to read the time very accurately.
I've noticed this too with my tap tempo tremolos and have considered switching to the clicked momentary. I get why people use them, but I don't play in quiet environments. Also one reason why I resisted the urge to swap out my El Cap for version 2 ... I've come to realize I prefer the tt switch on the El Cap to the one on my trem.
Interesting!
So something like this:
http://www.mammothelectronics.com/4SFS2PDT-MS-I-p/800-1017.htm (http://www.mammothelectronics.com/4SFS2PDT-MS-I-p/800-1017.htm)
would be better than something like this:
http://www.mammothelectronics.com/KFSSPST-MB-SPST-Momentary-Soft-Touch-Switch-with-p/800-1003b.htm (http://www.mammothelectronics.com/KFSSPST-MB-SPST-Momentary-Soft-Touch-Switch-with-p/800-1003b.htm)
So I'm posting back for posterity:
I tried out the TapTation as just a pot replacement for the delay time pot on the ZPSDX, and it worked but I only got varying times of 1/4 note timings. This is cool, but I need my dotted 8th/U2 triplet sounds.
I'm going to try getting another digipot and making a daughter board for the second digipot.
i for one would definitely be interested in your findings. i had to put my zpsdx / taptation experimentation aside to deal with some other stuff. any news in this area would definitely be welcomed before i dive back in.