Screw vero, that's one more for the fail box.
Is there a novice vero, with...like, 1/4 inch wide strips and gaps?
I suck at this.
Quote from: icecycle66 on March 22, 2013, 01:42:53 AM
Screw vero, that's one more for the fail box.
Is there a novice vero, with...like, 1/4 inch wide strips and gaps?
I suck at this.
I hate vero, too. :(
Love perfboard, though. Hard to forget a cut when you're soldering parts to other parts.
I'm not a fan either, some people are great with it though. Check out frequency centrals stuff, just amazing.
I started about a year ago when I found Mark's site http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/ and It forced me to do vero layouts simply because I did not know anything about etching. I appreciate vero layouts for teaching me how to build a pedal and I felt I accomplished my goal when I made a Mayo muff clone. I decided it was time to try etching and I never touched vero again.
There just seem to be more points of failure.. at least for me. Don't get me wrong, I have a few successful vero builds that I am proud of but my failure box is full of vero layouts.
I don't know why, but I quite enjoy working on stripboard (or vero board). Admittedly, it's harder to build circuits on the PCBs in terms of wire links, track cuts, making sure parts go into the right holes, etc, but I find its easy to solder onto and very satisfying when the circuit (eventually) works. And the fact is quicker then exposing a PCB in the light box, heating the etching tank up (which takes ages), etching the PCB and then cutting it from the board.
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I basically agree; I've had little luck with even verified stripboard projects (my last fuzz attempt is still waiting on a few parts), but I do have a couple of buffer experiments I want to build and, oddly enough, since they have so few parts, the vero layouts are pretty much the same size as perf layouts, so that will be my final go at vero. Fingers - and hopefully no traces :D - crossed.
Quote from: stevie1556 on March 22, 2013, 02:34:47 AM
...the fact is quicker then exposing a PCB in the light box, heating the etching tank up (which takes ages), etching the PCB and then cutting it from the board.
That's why I'm using eagle now! I've only done two vero layouts and it was definitely a challenge. I've yet to put together anything complex on vero so I don't hate it yet. ;) Etching is a better option IMO, but nothing compares to making your own layout and having it fabricated. Obviously it takes some time and there is a bit of a learning curve but making a compact layout is much like solving a puzzle, which I love...
Quote from: stevie1556 on March 22, 2013, 02:34:47 AM
I don't know why, but I quite enjoy working on stripboard (or vero board). Admittedly, it's harder to build circuits on the PCBs in terms of wire links, track cuts, making sure parts go into the right holes, etc, but I find its easy to solder onto and very satisfying when the circuit (eventually) works. And the fact is quicker then exposing a PCB in the light box, heating the etching tank up (which takes ages), etching the PCB and then cutting it from the board.
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This. Working with vero is like working with an etched board to me, the tracks are just wider and easier to solder. When you flip it over to the non solder side, it's just a board with a bunch of holes in it. So far, I like all the options below in the diy PCB's except perf., it confuses the brain.
I guess I have pretty good luck with vero, I have built dozens of circuits with it and all turned out fine...so far.
I do want to get into etching as I like pcbs better but have not taken the initiative to get that rolling. I beleive one also needs a laser printer which I don't have :(
Quote from: pryde on March 22, 2013, 03:26:14 AM
I guess I have pretty good luck with vero, I have built dozens of circuits with it and all turned out fine...so far.
I do want to get into etching as I like pcbs better but have not taken the initiative to get that rolling. I beleive one also needs a laser printer which I don't have :(
I just head down to the copy shop down the street and make laser copies for about 10 cents a piece and better quality than if I bought a cheap toner based home printer...
Quote from: Stomptown on March 22, 2013, 03:37:31 AM
Quote from: pryde on March 22, 2013, 03:26:14 AM
I guess I have pretty good luck with vero, I have built dozens of circuits with it and all turned out fine...so far.
I do want to get into etching as I like pcbs better but have not taken the initiative to get that rolling. I beleive one also needs a laser printer which I don't have :(
I just head down to the coy shop down the street and make laser copies for about 10 cents a piece and better quality than if I bought a cheap toner based home printer...
Genius! Now if I could find somebody to etch for about .10 a board.....
Quote from: Stomptown on March 22, 2013, 02:59:17 AM
That's why I'm using eagle now! I've only done two vero layouts and it was definitely a challenge. I've yet to put together anything complex on vero so I don't hate it yet. ;) Etching is a better option IMO, but nothing compares to making your own layout and having it fabricated. Obviously it takes some time and there is a bit of a learning curve but making a compact layout is much like solving a puzzle, which I love...
I'm the other way. When I actually get around to designing a board, I would then prefer to finish making it myself. Don't get me wrong, I've received a fabbed board from Josh, and it was a lovely board, extremely easy to solder, and it was a great experience. However, being in the UK, OSH Park boards will take about 2 months to arrive because of postage, and the Chinese manufacturers I've found have a big tooling charge which makes it financially unviable to have 1 or 2 boards made.
Quote from: jimilee on March 22, 2013, 03:23:44 AM
This. Working with vero is like working with an etched board to me, the tracks are just wider and easier to solder. When you flip it over to the non solder side, it's just a board with a bunch of holes in it. So far, I like all the options below in the diy PCB's except perf., it confuses the brain.
That's also another reason why I like stripboard, is that it's extremely easy to solder. The copper heats up quicker then a etched PCB I find.
Quote from: pryde on March 22, 2013, 03:26:14 AM
I guess I have pretty good luck with vero, I have built dozens of circuits with it and all turned out fine...so far.
I do want to get into etching as I like pcbs better but have not taken the initiative to get that rolling. I beleive one also needs a laser printer which I don't have :(
You can also get special film to produce high quality artworks from an inkjet. I tried it but my printer wouldn't print on the transparency film. You could also try normal transparency film. As someone else has said, an office shop (Staples over here) use laser photocopies for about 10-15p a sheet if I remember right.
You can get good laser printers cheap. I was looking at getting a cheap Samsung black and white one last year, but managed to get a Samsung 4 colour one, end of line, £110 discount because of it, then as it was the last one and ex display, another 15% off plus a couple packs of paper. Ended up being cheaper then the black and white one I was looking at. Just keep an eye out and you can get a good deal. Personally, I prefer my laser to my inkjet, probably because it still feels like a new toy, but the cost of toner puts me off using it too much.
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I have had better luck with complicated vero then some complicated PCBs I have done. Now perf is something I am scared to try :-\.
I like Vero. I keep a big board around, and so always have instant access to build a circuit. And with places like IVIark's , and sabrotone, there's always a cool circuit to build.
My first builds (couple of Rangemasters, Fulltone 69, Octavia, etc.) were on vero.
While I like perf board, it just looks so ugly in the end. And my ultimate goal is to end up with nice, neat boards.
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I find vero easy to work with, and way easier to unsolder than PCBs in case something goes wrong.
The thing is though that I've had good success with really small circiuts on vero (SHO, COT, ROG Peppermill, Naga Viper ...), but have a growing pile of not-working bigger circuits (a number of drives) that I can't seem to get to work.
My pile of PCBs has gone now, so I will have to learn to debug properly. Been measuring voltages the other evening etc., will have to make an audio probe next. Will report back, probably with lots of questions.
Vero was my temporary fix when I ran out of fabbed boards to work off, and has grown into a pretty satisfying little niche for me. There are some basic do's and don'ts I stick to; I don't build delays on vero, cause they never turn out right. Choruses pretty much the same.
What I like about vero is that there are hundreds of verified layouts out there, you build one, you test it out, if you like it, box away, if not, take off the socketted components, clip the pots off, and toss the board away, you're out about an hour and $1 in parts. Cheap way of finding out whether or not you like certain circuits (no, I don't breadboard, requires more thought than I usually want to put in during my peak insomniac building time of 4 - 7 am).
That being said, eventually I'll get off my ass and learn to build my own PCBs.
Personally I love vero. Had only one failure with it [coloursound overdriver from tagboardeffects]. I built dozens of great pedals that are on vero. I always shield the traces with solder all over like this https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ah6HHmAMdJo/T-A7_CwZHuI/AAAAAAAAAhc/SeSN3YwzBLE/s1111/IMG431.jpg and it becomes totally indestructible [this is an octavia in a 1590a].
Someone said it's easier to unsolder, that's true for me too.
To me, the vero method is just much more in a DIY spirit, I really feel like doing a hobby project or whatever, and that's just so cool. To me, pcb's are much better for complicated stuff though. Someone mentioned Harald of the website Sabrotone, I mean, that dude built an ADA Flanger on vero, that vero looks...frightening in the least! I would NEVER make an attempt on it. Never.
When I see a fabricated PC board though, on many of the builds here, it really reduces the DIYness out of it, to be quite honest I don't like it :D That's why I etch my own boards [and I do it really really bad, but everything works] just to feel a touch more diyness out of it. Dunno. That's just me.
So veros are mega cool for vintage fuzzes, and easy projects, or the "hm, I gotta build this and see if I like it" scenario, but anything more complicated than a tube screamer or a muff, I would go PCB.
There's some residual parasitic capacitance between the vero lines of copper as well, or at least someone told me that, but it's mostly benign and do not affect the tone.
Yup. What these guys said. ^^:D
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Absolutely abhor perfboard. Have been designing and etching pcb's for years so for even the smiplest circuit would whip up a pcb rather then attempt perf.. Only recently gave vero a try and am totally sold on it. Easy to layout with diylc, easy to work with and like others have said hundreds of verified layouts available. Won't stop using my pcb's but for quick simple throwdowns can't beat vero. Great online source for sheets of phenolic and epoxy vero (as well as perf and copperclad) in Vancouver.
http://www.veroboard.com/
Also printed out a numbered/lettered 30 by 30- 0.1" grid that i lay my veroboard on top of to help facilitate the marking of cut points, easy to locate the x,y co-ordinate.
dave
Whenever I've tried vero, I've found that it doesn't solder nicely. The solder seems to slide off the tracks a bit. Between that, and the having to drill out tracks (I don't have a set of drill bits, I go around to my parent's house and use Dad's workshop), I'm not fussed on it.
Perf, OTOH, is great for quick circuits, you just have to keep your wits about you or you'll paint yourself into a corner and run out of room :)
Quote from: alanp on March 22, 2013, 07:41:52 PM
Whenever I've tried vero, I've found that it doesn't solder nicely. The solder seems to slide off the tracks a bit. Between that, and the having to drill out tracks (I don't have a set of drill bits, I go around to my parent's house and use Dad's workshop), I'm not fussed on it.
The secret to soldering success with vero is to run the trace side across a Scotch brite pad after the traces have been cut. It roughs up the surface a little bit and gets rid of any trace cutting "legs" left on the board.
You don't have to have a drill (though I'd recommend drilling out all the trace breaks, as it makes for easy reference from the components side when you're assembling), Farnell makes a little screwdriver trace cutter that will do the job in one twist.
Us non-etchers are truly spoiled by the number of high-quality fabbed boards!
Working on vero just requires extra care at the board prep and population stages of building. Numbering rows and columns helps, as does marking the board locations before making cuts and jumpers. It's like the old adage "measure twice, cut once".
Once I figured out that troubleshooting just involved rectifying (not that rectifying) the fact that I made a bad cut/jumper, put a part in the wrong hole (you have such a dirty mind, btw), used the wrong value, etc., it became easier to deal with.
I'm not an expert by any means, and have arrived at any useful practices by making plenty of mistakes (making 34 perfect cuts and realizing I had the strips oriented the wrong way!) But as a result I got to try some nice sounding circuits, including an echobase or two, some compressors, a trem lune and plenty of dirt!
And yes, some went in the box of failure—I learned a ton from those!
One more thing, if you're using Mark's layouts (tagboard), make sure you check the transistor orientation against the pinouts inside of the transistor, not the transistor orientation shown on the layout. The transistor orientation (especially on the earlier projects) was a pretty picture and didn't necessarily match the pinouts shown.
Quote from: GermanCdn on March 22, 2013, 08:28:26 PM
One more thing, if you're using Mark's layouts (tagboard), make sure you check the transistor orientation against the pinouts inside of the transistor, not the transistor orientation shown on the layout. The transistor orientation (especially on the earlier projects) was a pretty picture and didn't necessarily match the pinouts shown.
I'm currently building a TS-808 on there, and got another few projects printed out ready, but I've noticed a lot of the comments do say to check the transistor pinouts. I honestly can't believe how many layouts they have on that site!
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Quote from: stevie1556 on March 22, 2013, 08:41:38 PM
Quote from: GermanCdn on March 22, 2013, 08:28:26 PM
One more thing, if you're using Mark's layouts (tagboard), make sure you check the transistor orientation against the pinouts inside of the transistor, not the transistor orientation shown on the layout. The transistor orientation (especially on the earlier projects) was a pretty picture and didn't necessarily match the pinouts shown.
I'm currently building a TS-808 on there, and got another few projects printed out ready, but I've noticed a lot of the comments do say to check the transistor pinouts. I honestly can't believe how many layouts they have on that site!
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Now that Mark has the help from Mirosol they seem to be pumping out un/verified layouts every other day. Been fun watching the site grow. I just wish I enjoyed veros but I honestly can etch a board and start building in 30 minutes now.. got a good system down.
Quote from: selfdestroyer on March 22, 2013, 08:53:28 PM
Now that Mark has the help from Mirosol they seem to be pumping out un/verified layouts every other day. Been fun watching the site grow. I just wish I enjoyed veros but I honestly can etch a board and start building in 30 minutes now.. got a good system down.
30 mins? That's extremely quick! How do you do it? It takes me well over an hour! I run the UV box for 5 mins to warm up, expose the board for 5 mins, develop it, say another 5 mins, PCB tank takes a good 40-50 mins to warm up (I'm using it in the garden and because it's so cold it takes longer), then 10 mins to etch the PCB. Then got to cut the PCB, I keep scoring it with a Stanley knife, then drill all the pad holes. Actually, now I think about it, I absolutely love stripboard, the best thing ever invented haha!
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I'm 30min as well- from printing out the transparency to the etched board ready for drilling. Drilling time's going to vary depending on board plus there's a bit of time to initially cut a piece of pcb and then trim it up after the etch but all and all not much time is necessary.
Expose the board for 9min, 1" from a regular flourescent bulb (the ones over my workbench), develop 1-2min, etching time varies a little but with fresh acid/peroxide ~5min.
dave
Here is my process.
1] Print a PCB transfer on photo paper
2] Clean my copper clad
3] Iron on my transfer 10 minutes ( I iron on the photo paper until I can see the traces through the paper)
HP Glossy Presentation Paper (Office Depot $6.99)
House hold iron set to (sweet jesus thats hot) setting
4] drop it in the Ferric chloride and set it on my etching rig to agitate it for 15-20 mins
Video of my etching rig http://music.codydeschenes.com/?p=948 (http://music.codydeschenes.com/?p=948)
5] drill and remove toner
6] populate
ok so maybe 40 minutes.. also depends on how many holes I need to drill but you get the idea.
i found recently, if you give the ferric chloride a blast in the microwave for a few seconds to warm it up (when the mrs is looking the other way!) things etch in half the time!
George
Quote from: hammerheadmusicman on March 22, 2013, 11:35:14 PM
i found recently, if you give the ferric chloride a blast in the microwave for a few seconds to warm it up (when the mrs is looking the other way!) things etch in half the time!
George
I was always afraid to do that..not sure why.. so what I do is I have a larger shallow container with water and microwave that then put my smaller shallow container of FC in that just to warm it up.. but you are 100% right.. it does speed up the process when it is above room temp.
You are right to be scared, if i ever get caught my head will be on the block!!!
I used to do the boiling water bath thing, but the results aren't as good.. microwave is fine, just don't do it for too long.
Quote from: hammerheadmusicman on March 22, 2013, 11:45:32 PM
You are right to be scared, if i ever get caught my head will be on the block!!!
I used to do the boiling water bath thing, but the results aren't as good.. microwave is fine, just don't do it for too long.
I'll wait for the wife to take a nap and give it a go. Lol
I have no issues with vero. When I moved on from kits I was making most things from it. However I think PCB's have made me soft now ;) and 90% of what I build is on PCB. I still use it occasionally for one off things.
Perf however, pure evil. I really don't get on with perf...
...or SMD...
I tried to build something in vero last year when i was starting to build pedals and it went really bad, and it was a small circuit. But since then i learned the most important thing in this hobbie, think twice before doing something, and "try" to have patience... is half way to build something that works first try.
Now i decided to try vero again, i'm doing a box of rock and before i started populating i've checked all the strips and gaps on the board whith the multimeter, cause if it's good now then later will make the job easier to debug if needed!
Meanwhile, some months ago i've also did a ROG tri-vibe in perf and that was the hardest one i built, i was lucky cause it worked second try, a resistor was shorting...(i might post it in the build reports, just cause i love this pedal)
every day i study last nights work. take it slow, and enjoy it double checking as you go. by slowing down I find my rate of sucess has shot way up
Quote from: selfdestroyer on March 22, 2013, 11:41:38 PMQuote from: hammerheadmusicman on March 22, 2013, 11:35:14 PMi found recently, if you give the ferric chloride a blast in the microwave for a few seconds to warm it up (when the mrs is looking the other way!) things etch in half the time!
George
I was always afraid to do that..not sure why.. so what I do is I have a larger shallow container with water and microwave that then put my smaller shallow container of FC in that just to warm it up.. but you are 100% right.. it does speed up the process when it is above room temp.
I do the hot water thing also.
Vero is so "instant gratification" for small/medium circuits. And it really gives you that DIY look. ::)
Perf definitely is the devil.
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Vero for me is great for the simple pedals like fuzz's, overdrives, boosters.
I would hate to attempt a flanger or delay on vero like I have seen before. That is instant fail.
Biggest thing I did on vero that works great is a 4 knob compressor clone from a well known boutique builder and a certain Ecstasy (Euphoria) overdrive pedal.
;)
I still prefer a good PCB or etched board over vero because I hate wiring vero when there are more than 3 pots and toggles...
I dunno, but like working with both vero and perf. Both are great mediums to learn electronics.
Vero is great to learn on. Folks are spoilt with fab pcbs ;D
I've made loads of vero inc delay, chorus, phaser and loads dirt boxes
Verified layout and your golden, plus it's hella cheap
By no means does it suck. You suck. ;) :-*
Thus far I have only had good results with vero. I have built 3 fuzz circuits, and a delay. They all fired up first try. Well see but at the moment I like vero.
Mike
i reckon if you can have success with a delay on vero, you can do just about anything.
I'm dragging this up, because I realized I feel the exact same way about etched boards. I have exactly ZERO working boards from etches. Not my own etches either, they are all from people who know what they're doing. I, however, cannot get a single one to work. Fabbed boards and vero are it for me, that ground plane is always way too close unmasked...
Quote from: Effectsiation on April 19, 2013, 01:54:57 PM
I'm dragging this up, because I realized I feel the exact same way about etched boards. I have exactly ZERO working boards from etches. Not my own etches either, they are all from people who know what they're doing. I, however, cannot get a single one to work. Fabbed boards and vero are it for me, that ground plane is always way too close unmasked...
I had a lot of problems with etched boards at first but feel comfortable with them now. I'm not a fan of them either though...
Etched boards are like playing acoustic then going to electronic. You get so much better at it.
Quote from: jimilee on April 19, 2013, 06:05:39 PM
Etched boards are like playing acoustic then going to electronic. You get so much better at it.
I can agree with this. I started on vero then went to etching my own board and got pretty successful at it and I remember the first time I populated a fabbed PCB.. I was able to speed right through it and the pads were less finicky as my etched boards. all in all I still etch my own boards first If I can find/make a transfer. Iw ill be trying my hand with Eagle & OshPark here really soon.
Quote from: selfdestroyer on April 19, 2013, 07:12:34 PM
Quote from: jimilee on April 19, 2013, 06:05:39 PM
Etched boards are like playing acoustic then going to electronic. You get so much better at it.
I can agree with this. I started on vero then went to etching my own board and got pretty successful at it and I remember the first time I populated a fabbed PCB.. I was able to speed right through it and the pads were less finicky as my etched boards. all in all I still etch my own boards first If I can find/make a transfer. Iw ill be trying my hand with Eagle & OshPark here really soon.
Osh park is super easy to upload eagle files to and it's a lot of fun to design your own board. The turn around time is really quick too. Especially for us left coast folks. I actually live in the same city as the guy who runs osh park so it ships in a day! I would definitely give it a try. I would start with a single sided layout that you can etch yourself and then go for a double sided layout for the fab. Jacobs Kokura's Eagle tutorials are great. Definitely watch those and track down the Madbean libraries for parts...
Oh, and that is a great analogy Jimi!