Brian, i see you like your cascading fet overdrives. is there any scope to produce a trainwreck amp in a pedal?
*which* Trainwreck amp?
You could get pretty darned close to the Rocket altering the ROG Englinsh Channel. The Rocket's basically an AC30 with more mids. You don't need to change the tone stack too much, I think just one cap. Put it in a wooden box and you can charge a thousand dollars for it. ::)
sorry, i should have been more clear. i like the tonality of the express and the liverpool amps and would love to hear them in DIY pedal form.
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=1239835
Some discussion there ...
Brain's said he's working on a pedal port of the Night Train amp, which is also similar to a Trainwreck.
Theres no diy versions discussed there. i don't want to spend $350 on a menatone Kar krash (that is a lot of money!)
Is this the right place to suggest projects or am i just barking up the wrong tree? i assumed something like this might be interesting for the majority as its a boutique amp that very few can afford.
The dumble thing has been pedalized to death and i was reading my amp book today and read about trainwreck etc and thought it'd be cool to have one in a pedal.
should i not suggest such things here?
I didnt know the night train is based on a train wreck.
Quote from: thorpy6 on May 01, 2013, 10:09:26 PM
Theres no diy versions discussed there. i don't want to spend $350 on a menatone Kar krash (that is a lot of money!)
Is this the right place to suggest projects or am i just barking up the wrong tree? i assumed something like this might be interesting for the majority as its a boutique amp that very few can afford.
The dumble thing has been pedalized to death and i was reading my amp book today and read about trainwreck etc and thought it'd be cool to have one in a pedal.
should i not suggest such things here?
I didnt know the night train is based on a train wreck.
Dude, calm down ... I linked to that because it might mention some circuits that maybe someone reading this thread -- who might not be you, because it's a public forum -- might have a layout for. Or there might be something that's been traced on FSB. Or they might mention an amp with a
known schematic like the Night Train that could be pedalized.
The likelihood of Brian having a trainwreck to create a circuit from scratch out of is pretty slim, wouldn't you agree?
And the "Requests" forum is typically the "right place to suggest projects" -- this is for open discussion. So I was openly discussioning.
Edit:
Here's a gut shot from the Kar Krash on DIYSB:
http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=405&p=4421&hilit=kar+krash#p73719
It's a LOT of FETs.
Quote from: midwayfair on May 01, 2013, 10:36:21 PM
Dude, calm down ...
I am calm. Life's too short to get excited by the internet. Im a military guy and one of my failings is abruptness in conversation be it text or speech. That being said, I was asking a genuine question, as in is it bad form to make requests? I didn't realise there was a requests section, happy for this thread to be moved by a mod though if it'll help?
The reason i asked was because this is the second time in about a month i have done so and in both cases i was pointed elsewhere, so i was getting the impression that either a) my ideas are shite or b) its not the done thing to suggest builds.
And i do understand that Brian wont have access to a real Trainwreck amp but the schematics are available on the web so i assumed he may be able to work his magic as i don't have a clue how to convert an amp into pedal form.
Quote from: thorpy6 on May 01, 2013, 10:45:34 PM
is it bad form to make requests? I didn't realise there was a requests section, happy for this thread to be moved by a mod though if it'll help?
The reason i asked was because this is the second time in about a month i have done so and in both cases i was pointed elsewhere, so i was getting the impression that either a) my ideas are shite or b) its not the done thing to suggest builds.
And i do understand that Brian wont have access to a real Trainwreck amp but the schematics are available on the web so i assumed he may be able to work his magic as i don't have a clue how to convert an amp into pedal form.
1. Not bad form, just a post in the wrong place. I don't think it's necessary to move, because the original topic has been derailed, so if you'd like to repost in the Requests area, that's fine.
2. Again, just because you're being pointed elsewhere doesn't mean you should question your ideas, but rather join the conversation.
3. I agree, you don't need an amp to find the schematic. However, in most cases, turning an amp into a pedal is a big and complicated task.
I think you may have gotten an inaccurate reception here, so our apologies on that one. Let's start over! Welcome, you're very welcome to join, ask questions, and participate on all of the forums here. We like that, and we have no issues with you. I'd encourage you to read a lot more, ask questions, and look at the suggestions people offer as chances to join in on the conversations.
It's a bit of an aside, but perhaps the best person to take the Trainwreck amp schematics and turn them into pedals is you. It's certainly in the realm of possibility, although you may not realize it yet.
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on May 01, 2013, 10:54:57 PM
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1. Not bad form, just a post in the wrong place. I don't think it's necessary to move, because the original topic has been derailed, so if you'd like to repost in the Requests area, that's fine.
2. Again, just because you're being pointed elsewhere doesn't mean you should question your ideas, but rather join the conversation.
3. I agree, you don't need an amp to find the schematic. However, in most cases, turning an amp into a pedal is a big and complicated task.
I think you may have gotten an inaccurate reception here, so our apologies on that one. Let's start over! Welcome, you're very welcome to join, ask questions, and participate on all of the forums here. We like that, and we have no issues with you. I'd encourage you to read a lot more, ask questions, and look at the suggestions people offer as chances to join in on the conversations.
It's a bit of an aside, but perhaps the best person to take the Trainwreck amp schematics and turn them into pedals is you. It's certainly in the realm of possibility, although you may not realize it yet.
Jacob
Hi Jacob, thanks for the welcome- I've actually been around lurking for quite a while and post under the same name on the BYOC forum- I know bits and bobs about circuits and really should find the time to learn the fundamentals of circuit design from the ground up, its something ive been meaning to do having built hundreds of pedals now.
- you are probably right i should just do this myself, it'll be a good learning experience. That being said, id actually quite like to build the amp- hmmm......
Quote from: thorpy6 on May 01, 2013, 10:45:34 PM
The reason i asked was because this is the second time in about a month i have done so and in both cases i was pointed elsewhere, so i was getting the impression that either a) my ideas are shite or b) its not the done thing to suggest builds.
I'm not pointing you elsewhere, and I apologize if it seems that way.
Creating a new circuit is tough. Creating a pedalization of an amp is also tough: it's not simply a matter of copying the schematic and using FETs in place of tubes. There aren't even really rules. One of the best amp-in-a-box pedals is Runoff Groove's Azabache. It's seriously amazing sounding, but the only thing that makes it "sound" like a Fender is the tone stacks, which they calculated to have the same response in a pedal as in the amp. Even that is very difficult -- it's beyond anything I know how to do, for instance. The rest of the pedal looks like a whole bunch of FET-based Electra Distortion circuits, except they're all low-gain stacked into each other ... and yet the thing feels and sounds exactly like a Fender amp, moreso than any FET-based ODs that are just pedalizations of the amp.
Trainwrecks are famous not just for their sound, which is not too hard to cop (as long as you can calculate the tone stack, which I can't), but for their
feel. That's something that's very difficult to do without the real amp on hand (which helped Runoff Groove when they made the Supreaux Deux, one of the other AIABs they hit a homerun on).
You'll notice Brian's only done a couple AIABs. There are other amp-in-a-box pedals around here, but many of them are clones of booteek stuff.
So when I link to other stuff, it's because it helps to know that there are other things out there that have done at least part of the work for you, even if it means that as a last resort someone might need to buy an expensive pedal for the purposes of tracing the circuit. (Freestompboxes has a fund for that.) That's pretty drastic.
If you are serious about getting a request off the ground, if you have access to other resources, you can make the request go a lot smoother -- and it might come from someone who isn't Brian, though if he makes a board I'd probably buy it -- by finding things like a reliable schematic, information on the type of sound you're looking for, etc.
By the way, the TGP thread mentions the Paisely Drive, which Brad Paisely says -- without being paid or prompted to do so -- sounds like his Wrecks in some settings. That's a circuit that's been traced. And whaduya know, but our very own Chi_Boy sells a PCB for that one:
http://home.comcast.net/~gprause/BuildDocs/Pastie_V1.1_Build_Doc.pdf
EDIT:
Quote from: thorpy6 on May 01, 2013, 10:45:34 PMIm a military guy and one of my failings is abruptness in conversation be it text or speech.
I'm a former military guy, and I'm much brusquer in person. :-X
I see ive opened a can of worms, I literally had no idea it was that hard to convert. I was just reading the Fetzer page on runoff groove now. Blimey!!!
All i was thinking is well this is the preamps, what about the tonestack, power section etc etc. I need to do more reading on this stuff, its very interesting and clearly if nailed right can work. Why hasnt the azabache been made into a production pedal i wonder?
ref the paisley, yeah I'm going to buy one of those i think. thanks for the link.
Quote from: thorpy6 on May 01, 2013, 11:16:17 PMAll i was thinking is well this is the preamps, what about the tonestack, power section etc etc. I need to do more reading on this stuff, its very interesting and clearly if nailed right can work. Why hasnt the azabache been made into a production pedal i wonder?
ref the paisley, yeah I'm going to buy one of those i think. thanks for the link.
Oh! That's another thing. Most pedalizations are just the preamp, which leaves out the power tube saturation. That can be an unbelievably difficult challenge, because solid state distortion is MUCH harsher than power tube distortion, even though power tube distortion is very sparkly. The result is usually a choice between harshness or not enough treble in higher gain circuits, and wrecks are high gain ... even just modding some of the aiab pedals is tough.
There was a small PCB run of the Azabache, but I think it was a 1590BB project. I got my board from Jubal81, and it fit in a 1590B (with Brian's Kingslayer drill template). I might check with ROG to arrange for a group buy over the summer, though. I still need to do a demo; I've been using it a lot lately, and I think it really is the pedal that's unseated a heavily modified fuzz face. It's unbelieveably good.
I was serious, though, in my first post, that you might be able to just use the English Channel as a base. A lot of wrecks are based on Vox amps with different tone stacks, usually adding more mids, which is what makes them sound more in-your-face and increases the distortion content.
I've wanted to build a T'wreck Express for a while... just haven't had the spare pennies.
Either an Express, or 45/100. Probably from Ceriatone.
good points all around. agreed , it is tricky to emulate the sonic character of an amp, especially if the player dynamics of the inspiration amp are to be somewhat similar to the pedal ( even trickier when the amp emulated has such a complex character). the aforementioned power amp breakup issue is also to be considered.
i haven't tried any of the runoffgroove AIABs, or any clones of commercail types, but i did my own exploration into this AIAB idea back in 05. 'decade'
it has a JFET feeding a Ge trans, a dumble-inspired tone stack and a 3rd FET tage. the trimmers on the FETs allowed tuning to emulate preamp and power amp distortion, the Ge gave a round tubey flavor ( and player dynamics) that FETs alone couldn't match IMO.
pretty simple. i humbly suggest this might be a good rough starting point for a 'wreck-ish type pedal as it has really sweet player dynamics and a tone stack in a good location, fairly low parts count.
don't worry about the custom 22k dualgang, that can be omitted and more normal ways to bias and bring in subtle diode distortion ( possibly left off also ) can be used. i only did the tricky dualgang to let the pedal go from a very clean boost to a distortion monster one a single knob. it worked!
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=7276&g2_serialNumber=2)
Quote from: joegagan on May 02, 2013, 02:22:02 AM
i haven't tried any of the runoffgroove AIABs, or any clones of commercail types, but i did my own exploration into this AIAB idea back in 05. 'decade'
it has a JFET feeding a Ge trans, a dumble-inspired tone stack and a 3rd FET tage. the trimmers on the FETs allowed tuning to emulate preamp and power amp distortion, the Ge gave a round tubey flavor ( and player dynamics) that FETs alone couldn't match IMO.
Looks really nice,
If the dynamics are so difficult to emulate, why don't more pedals utilise the opto-fet like in the bixonic expandora? I've only seen this in this pedal and it seems a really neat way to ensure picking strength etc are taking into account to give a good distortion characteristic.
good point. i recall seeing threads about the expandora a long time ago, but i have not seen a schematic.
not familar wth opto-fets either, they sound like they would be good to explore.
Quote from: thorpy6 on May 02, 2013, 06:13:47 AMIf the dynamics are so difficult to emulate, why don't more pedals utilise the opto-fet like in the bixonic expandora? I've only seen this in this pedal and it seems a really neat way to ensure picking strength etc are taking into account to give a good distortion characteristic.
The opto-FET idea is cool, but there are other ways to emulate the picking dynamics of a vacuum tube. FETs are very good at it (slightly better than BJTs), and they've been used as solid state tube emulators for decades. Diodes aren't as good at it, but mostly because the methods of using diodes as clippers involves sticking them in a place where they fall after a boosted signal that gets well above their clipping threshold. They would still clean up like an amp with picking dynamics if the size of the signal through them were adjusted with a series resistor (that's what's in Joe's circuit, and I did something very similar in my Fallstaff booster to mimic the breakup characteristics of a Rangemaster's transistor). There are things like the knee of the distortion to take into account (germanium generally sounds like it has a softer knee than silicon). An asymmetric arrangement of diodes will get closer.
But this is all still working with solid state technology, which will ALWAYS be a little different from tube distortion in some manner. However, JustNick has done some fun blind tests to see if people can tell the difference between tube and solid state distortion. You can see where that's going ...
You might want to check out Samhay's decompression overdrive on DIYSB and Mictestester "Secret Sauce" on freestompboxes. Both utilize a somewhat unique method of compression on the diodes to mimic amp sag, which is one of the important parts of the "feel" of a tube amp.
i am going to go back to this one after ive done a bit of research, there are so many options. but it strikes me that you could get a pedal that could emulate the full tube compliment.
whether or not this is any use to the effect pedal world is debatable but imagine a pedal with either opto-fet or a well designed diode clipping section to represent the preamp and fets to represent the power tubes.
a true amp in a box?
Preamp emulation is one thing, but I have my doubts that power tube saturation can ever be accurately emulated. Seems to me that it's kind of a combination of what's feeding those tubes, how hot they're burning, and finally the transformer. There are a lot of interdependent factors when you get to that section of an amp sound.
Not that I don't want to see it attempted. It would be great, and the Trainwreck amps are a perfect aiming point for a project like this.
Ultimately, this is how new breakthroughs begin, right?
"Can it be done?"
And then someone figures out a way.
;D
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